Ion, the Knight... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ion, the Knight... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Requiem, First Rebirth
12-27-04, 09:18 PM I want you to rate this DM on a scale of 1 - 10 as far as how good he is at keeping the campaign together...

We started a campaign that didn't have any alignment or race restrictions. So, naturally, I proceeded to pick a CE Half-Fiend Sorcerer. :evillaugh and my partner in crime picked a LE Doppelganger Fighter(Archer). After awhile of gaming we were enthralled in a fight w/ 8 Shadows. During the middle of the fight this "DM" (as he commonly refers to himself as), announced that one of his NPC paladins exited the bar and proceeded to watch the rest of the fight in town. This enraged my partner in crime.

Now the thing about this paladin was that he played a strong role in the DM's PCers life. He was playing a NG Cleric Half-Dragon, and this Paladin was her brother.

2 miles down a path to a dungeon I decide to sneak up on the Paladin and Hypnotize him. My original plan was to hang him from a tree in his undergarments, and let him wake up naked. But, my partner in crime had other plans. He loosed an arrow into the Paladins skull, Point Blank. This enraged the DM's character, which is understandable.

Metagaming Point #1
We reach a path at the beginning to a forest w/ a druid. After a series of squabbles we kill The druid. NOW the DM is getting Pssed. He announces that a Red Dragon(whom he told me before the session even started was on the opposite side of the forest) somehow made its way here and we had to fight it.

After a while the DM stopped talking all together. He was in the corner muttering about ways to bring his NPC back from the dead. His whole storyline was ruined because of one stupid NPC. That is :censored:!
XArchangelX
12-27-04, 10:11 PM So, this is why no one likes to play evil campaigns.
BloodGod
12-27-04, 10:27 PM Your DM's a bafoon. No offense.

And in response to ArchAngel: Why the Hell does everyone bad talk evil campaigns so much?! If two NPC villains walk up to a lone character, one hypnotizes him and the other point blank-executes him, how is that different from this?

Scale of 1-10: He's in negatives.

-BG
TheMightyMcClaw
12-27-04, 10:47 PM I generally find DM PC's and a plentitude of template/monstrous races as a sign of a bad DM. I used to be guilty of both sins....
lostinabook247
12-27-04, 11:39 PM The thing with playing an evil campaign is, you have to not get caught. If you're playing obvious evil, like a Half-Fiend going around killing people you meet, people will notice. Unless you're playing in an evil-aligned world or one where the law has no power, overwhelming force will be used to kill you. This is a problem for the DM, because there's a choice between deliberately killing off PCs or losing all control over what happens because you know the DM won't kill your characters off. Admittedly, he should have done it in a better way than slamming a red dragon down on you, he should have had a party of adventurers, or a whole group of paladins, or town guard, or whatever come destroy you. He also never should have let you play a CE half-fiend sorcerer, nor should he have let you kill things when in-character you'd have to be insane to do that, knowing you'd get hunted down and killed. (By the way, my apologies if the DM is a she, it's just that "he" is easier to use than "the DM" or "he or she" over and over).
Evil campaigns, though, need to be based on stealth and cunning and most importantly having the DM accept that you have some evil goal, or they need to be conducted far from civilization for you to have your slaughterfest.
For letting you be evil when he obviously doesn't want you to be, and for giving you no restrictions at all until you (surprise) did something he didn't want you to do, the DM gets a 2-3 out of 10 in my book. But you and your friend could have done a better job than mercilessly abusing his mistakes and making things worse.

And BloodGod, 2 NPCs doing the same thing as the PCs isn't different, they'd get killed (by the PCs, probably), though a good DM wouldn't bring in a random red dragon.
General Dorsey
12-27-04, 11:43 PM I'm going to be rather blunt: everyone is a 2 in that group.

Here's why:

1) As DM, he should never get attached to his NPCs or seek vengeance against the party.
2) As DM, he should not be playing a PC.
3) As DM, he should set ground rules for character creation.
4) As players, you should work on creating characters that are compatable with the group (you stated: "So, naturally, I proceeded to pick a CE Half-Fiend Sorcerer. and my partner in crime picked a LE Doppelganger Fighter(Archer). ") You were looking to start trouble.
5) As players, you have a responsibility to keep the game going as well. You knew how important the NPC was to the adventure, and because you chose to be evil and then act like Charles Manson, you failed in your part as players.
6) As friends (I assume that people only game with their friends unless at a convention), you should show some respect. Comments like: "During the middle of the fight this 'DM' (as he commonly refers to himself as), announced..." shows that you have no respect for him. The topic of the thread is also a dead giveaway.
7) As DM, he needs to work on his story better and account for things happening or potentially happening to his NPCs. He should not expect his NPCs to be immune to the world, just like he doesn't expect your PCs to be.

Personally, if any of those things happened in a group I was playing in, I would simply leave. I've done it before.
Encard
12-28-04, 01:18 AM I've got to (mostly) agree with General Dorsey... Bot the players and the DM sound like they have some serious problems. I'm not sure that as a player I'd continue to play with this DM, but I'm also not sure that as a DM I'd continue to play with these players.

I can't say that I really agree about not killing the NPC due to simple plot importance... However, the fact that you seem to be playing the type of characters that arbitrarily kill/maim people really doesn't help you much.
Thorak
12-28-04, 02:08 AM Just to disagree with GD on some points; as I understood it, the two of you are the group. There's three people, the DM and you two. The Paladin in question is an NPC.

In that case, the DM was cheating in the first place by allowing a Paladin to journey with you. Paladins are forbidden from associating with Evil individuals. And with permanent, at-will Detect Evil, there's really no good excuse, unless you two were magically concealing your alignment.

What really got me going, though, was that you mentioned your DM was playing a PC.

This is, quite frankly, impossible. The DM is the DM. He is not a Player. By definition he cannot have a Player Character. Everything he plays, by definition, is an NPC.

Now, it's possible to have a PC-like NPC, who's part of the group. But this should only ever be used for two purposes; filling a needed hole in the party, like a cleric in a party of warriors and wizards who will, at some point, need healing. Or for a future plot point that requires a party member to be sacrificed or betray the party.

If it's because the DM wants to "be in the game" too, smack him upside the head with a rolled-up newspaper. He's the bloody DM. He gets to roleplay every single monster and NPC. Why the heck does he want a PC too?

And if it's because he wants to gain treasure and power too, soak that newspaper in water and stick it in the freezer for a couple hours, then smack him with it again. This is like a guy saying "Sure, I'm the other team's pitcher, but I can be the umpire at the same time! Honest, that pitch was a strike!" It's a conflict of interest, and it's ridiculous. And I can almost guarantee he'll abuse it by, say, dropping a red dragon on you if you act against his "PC".

The "DMPC" phenomenon is ridiculous. The only time the DM should be playing a party NPC is to fill a needed role a PC isn't filling. And even then, they should be more like a cohort, and less an equal member. The game is about the PCs, not about watching the DM strut his paladin around after he's railroaded the party into quests for the Holy Avenger and +5 Full Plate, all while the rest of the party is level 3 (though his paladin, of course, has had a couple "side adventures" and is at least 8 levels higher.) If he wants to tell a story about a character he's thought up, write a bloody book. Don't subject your friends to bit roles in a supposed role-playing game in which you'll remove their ability to play the roles they choose in favour of the roles you want them to play.
Nicholas the Paladin
12-28-04, 10:41 AM Being a DM and a player (or NPC, whatever) in the same group IS possible. We as a group have been rotating the DM and PC roles for years now.

If you're willing to play a bit maturely, that is.

I think you three have a bit of a attitude problem. The DM foremost (besides being a bit foolish to begin with). But you two players should respect the freedom the DM has given you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Requiem, First Rebirth 12-27-04, 09:18 PM	I want you to rate this DM on a scale of 1 - 10 as far as how good he is at keeping the campaign together... We started a campaign that didn't have any alignment or race restrictions. So, naturally, I proceeded to pick a CE Half-Fiend Sorcerer. :evillaugh and my partner in crime picked a LE Doppelganger Fighter(Archer). After awhile of gaming we were enthralled in a fight w/ 8 Shadows. During the middle of the fight this "DM" (as he commonly refers to himself as), announced that one of his NPC paladins exited the bar and proceeded to watch the rest of the fight in town. This enraged my partner in crime. Now the thing about this paladin was that he played a strong role in the DM's PCers life. He was playing a NG Cleric Half-Dragon, and this Paladin was her brother. 2 miles down a path to a dungeon I decide to sneak up on the Paladin and Hypnotize him. My original plan was to hang him from a tree in his undergarments, and let him wake up naked. But, my partner in crime had other plans. He loosed an arrow into the Paladins skull, Point Blank. This enraged the DM's character, which is understandable. Metagaming Point #1 We reach a path at the beginning to a forest w/ a druid. After a series of squabbles we kill The druid. NOW the DM is getting Pssed. He announces that a Red Dragon(whom he told me before the session even started was on the opposite side of the forest) somehow made its way here and we had to fight it. After a while the DM stopped talking all together. He was in the corner muttering about ways to bring his NPC back from the dead. His whole storyline was ruined because of one stupid NPC. That is :censored:!
XArchangelX 12-27-04, 10:11 PM	So, this is why no one likes to play evil campaigns.
BloodGod 12-27-04, 10:27 PM	Your DM's a bafoon. No offense. And in response to ArchAngel: Why the Hell does everyone bad talk evil campaigns so much?! If two NPC villains walk up to a lone character, one hypnotizes him and the other point blank-executes him, how is that different from this? Scale of 1-10: He's in negatives. -BG
TheMightyMcClaw 12-27-04, 10:47 PM	I generally find DM PC's and a plentitude of template/monstrous races as a sign of a bad DM. I used to be guilty of both sins....
lostinabook247 12-27-04, 11:39 PM	The thing with playing an evil campaign is, you have to not get caught. If you're playing obvious evil, like a Half-Fiend going around killing people you meet, people will notice. Unless you're playing in an evil-aligned world or one where the law has no power, overwhelming force will be used to kill you. This is a problem for the DM, because there's a choice between deliberately killing off PCs or losing all control over what happens because you know the DM won't kill your characters off. Admittedly, he should have done it in a better way than slamming a red dragon down on you, he should have had a party of adventurers, or a whole group of paladins, or town guard, or whatever come destroy you. He also never should have let you play a CE half-fiend sorcerer, nor should he have let you kill things when in-character you'd have to be insane to do that, knowing you'd get hunted down and killed. (By the way, my apologies if the DM is a she, it's just that "he" is easier to use than "the DM" or "he or she" over and over). Evil campaigns, though, need to be based on stealth and cunning and most importantly having the DM accept that you have some evil goal, or they need to be conducted far from civilization for you to have your slaughterfest. For letting you be evil when he obviously doesn't want you to be, and for giving you no restrictions at all until you (surprise) did something he didn't want you to do, the DM gets a 2-3 out of 10 in my book. But you and your friend could have done a better job than mercilessly abusing his mistakes and making things worse. And BloodGod, 2 NPCs doing the same thing as the PCs isn't different, they'd get killed (by the PCs, probably), though a good DM wouldn't bring in a random red dragon.
General Dorsey 12-27-04, 11:43 PM	I'm going to be rather blunt: everyone is a 2 in that group. Here's why: 1) As DM, he should never get attached to his NPCs or seek vengeance against the party. 2) As DM, he should not be playing a PC. 3) As DM, he should set ground rules for character creation. 4) As players, you should work on creating characters that are compatable with the group (you stated: "So, naturally, I proceeded to pick a CE Half-Fiend Sorcerer. and my partner in crime picked a LE Doppelganger Fighter(Archer). ") You were looking to start trouble. 5) As players, you have a responsibility to keep the game going as well. You knew how important the NPC was to the adventure, and because you chose to be evil and then act like Charles Manson, you failed in your part as players. 6) As friends (I assume that people only game with their friends unless at a convention), you should show some respect. Comments like: "During the middle of the fight this 'DM' (as he commonly refers to himself as), announced..." shows that you have no respect for him. The topic of the thread is also a dead giveaway. 7) As DM, he needs to work on his story better and account for things happening or potentially happening to his NPCs. He should not expect his NPCs to be immune to the world, just like he doesn't expect your PCs to be. Personally, if any of those things happened in a group I was playing in, I would simply leave. I've done it before.
Encard 12-28-04, 01:18 AM	I've got to (mostly) agree with General Dorsey... Bot the players and the DM sound like they have some serious problems. I'm not sure that as a player I'd continue to play with this DM, but I'm also not sure that as a DM I'd continue to play with these players. I can't say that I really agree about not killing the NPC due to simple plot importance... However, the fact that you seem to be playing the type of characters that arbitrarily kill/maim people really doesn't help you much.
Thorak 12-28-04, 02:08 AM	Just to disagree with GD on some points; as I understood it, the two of you are the group. There's three people, the DM and you two. The Paladin in question is an NPC. In that case, the DM was cheating in the first place by allowing a Paladin to journey with you. Paladins are forbidden from associating with Evil individuals. And with permanent, at-will Detect Evil, there's really no good excuse, unless you two were magically concealing your alignment. What really got me going, though, was that you mentioned your DM was playing a PC. This is, quite frankly, impossible. The DM is the DM. He is not a Player. By definition he cannot have a Player Character. Everything he plays, by definition, is an NPC. Now, it's possible to have a PC-like NPC, who's part of the group. But this should only ever be used for two purposes; filling a needed hole in the party, like a cleric in a party of warriors and wizards who will, at some point, need healing. Or for a future plot point that requires a party member to be sacrificed or betray the party. If it's because the DM wants to "be in the game" too, smack him upside the head with a rolled-up newspaper. He's the bloody DM. He gets to roleplay every single monster and NPC. Why the heck does he want a PC too? And if it's because he wants to gain treasure and power too, soak that newspaper in water and stick it in the freezer for a couple hours, then smack him with it again. This is like a guy saying "Sure, I'm the other team's pitcher, but I can be the umpire at the same time! Honest, that pitch was a strike!" It's a conflict of interest, and it's ridiculous. And I can almost guarantee he'll abuse it by, say, dropping a red dragon on you if you act against his "PC". The "DMPC" phenomenon is ridiculous. The only time the DM should be playing a party NPC is to fill a needed role a PC isn't filling. And even then, they should be more like a cohort, and less an equal member. The game is about the PCs, not about watching the DM strut his paladin around after he's railroaded the party into quests for the Holy Avenger and +5 Full Plate, all while the rest of the party is level 3 (though his paladin, of course, has had a couple "side adventures" and is at least 8 levels higher.) If he wants to tell a story about a character he's thought up, write a bloody book. Don't subject your friends to bit roles in a supposed role-playing game in which you'll remove their ability to play the roles they choose in favour of the roles you want them to play.
Nicholas the Paladin 12-28-04, 10:41 AM	Being a DM and a player (or NPC, whatever) in the same group IS possible. We as a group have been rotating the DM and PC roles for years now. If you're willing to play a bit maturely, that is. I think you three have a bit of a attitude problem. The DM foremost (besides being a bit foolish to begin with). But you two players should respect the freedom the DM has given you.