Is a large bear... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is a large bear... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aladdar
03-29-05, 01:30 PM Too strong of a fight for a first and 2nd level party.

We had me (2nd level fighter)
another character 2nd level rogue
a first lvl soulknife or whatever that psyon class is
and a first lvl cleric

also an npc character who was a tracker but that's all we know of him.

I have 23 hp. The bear attacks me for 15 damage on the first attack and 13 damage on the second attack.

He then turns on the npc character and hits him for 12 and 13 killing the npc character completely.

I failed my save so now I'm at -7 bleeding. Cleric is running over to try and stabalize me.

I looked up the stats on the bear and it has about 50 some odd hp.

Did we just play this really really bad or is this a little high for us to tackle.
Jasoncorner
03-29-05, 01:43 PM If it was a brown bear, then things were stacked against you. The Brown bear has a CR (Challenge Rating) of 4. Which means it is a fight that a fourth level party would expend about 20-25% of their resources (hit points, spells, etc.).

Your party is mostly first level, with a few 2nd levels kicked in there, so a CR 2 monster would proably give the party a tough but winnable fight. Maybe somehting like a black bear, which only has 19 hitpoints, and can do a maxium damge per attack of 8 (1d4+4). This bear was obviously tougher. A CR 4 critter should, and sounds like it did, kick your pants in.
Magus Gar Kan
03-29-05, 01:45 PM I'm guessing that you fought a brown bear.
The creature has a CR of 4, Against a party with an average level of 1.5 (I am assuming the "tracker" was 1st level) it is a difficult to leathal challenge if my memory serves.

Not an impossible challenge, but if the battle has not concluded then I'd suggest rolling new characters.

Something like this is a melee kill machine, the only "safe" way to fight it would be at range, or with magic.
Losdeago
03-29-05, 01:48 PM Same thing happened to me, Only We bluffed our way out of the fight of a level 10 encounter, (Playing 2nd-3rd level charaters) But you should ask you DM About Fleeing the battlefield Might help...But for that you might need to have everyone alive and not K.O.'d
Arrowhen
03-29-05, 01:50 PM Did we just play this really really bad or is this a little high for us to tackle.
Assuming this is a brown bear, it's a CR4 creature vs. your level 1.5 party--a very difficult encounter, but not impossible. Whether you played really really badly or not depends on the tactics you used. We need more information.
ehrin
03-29-05, 01:50 PM That seems a bit tough for your level (a bit too much potential damage per round by the bear for your group). It also depends on how you played it... a smart party, with warning, should be able to take on a bear like that and most of the members survive.

A party with no warning or preparation, would fare like you did.. with a casualty or two.

With prep, you could have attacked from range first, cleric could have buffed a fighter a bit (bless, enlarge, whatever). the rogue could have prepped for flank/sneak attack, and with luck, you could have downed the bear with effort. You would have tried to avoid those damage dealing attacks.

But if you just blindly walked up and the bear attacked, and got initiative, you would be lucky to survive. Seems a bit tough at the level you are, yes.
Aladdar
03-29-05, 01:54 PM well we're supposed to be rescuing a little girl who was capture by the bear in the cave. The bear was guarding the girl so we didn't want to just run up and fight the bear in fear she'd be hurt. So I moved to the far right of the cave and plunked an arrow into the bear, the rogue is supposed to sneak in while I have its attention and rescue the girl. Anyhow, the Cleric cast bless, Bear charges me, swipes me and begins a grapple fest with me.

The other guys get a few blows in before he knocks me unconscious and then turns and kills the npc.
Losdeago
03-29-05, 02:02 PM I'm guessing that you fought a brown bear.
The creature has a CR of 4, Against a party with an average level of 1.5 (I am assuming the "tracker" was 1st level) it is a difficult to leathal challenge if my memory serves.

Not an impossible challenge, but if the battle has not concluded then I'd suggest rolling new characters.

Something like this is a melee kill machine, the only "safe" way to fight it would be at range, or with magic.
If he attacks from afar, he/ his comrades might get rush (I think thats the correct term) It will got a +2/3 to its attack so I would box it in and flank it and have your cleric off to the side as a healer...That might be your best bet.

(I got to go ---I hate dail up)
fallabel
03-29-05, 02:11 PM Actually, that sounds like you misplayed the encounter. Even though the CR is far above your level, the bear was "trapped" in the cave (in that it couldn't ambush your or anything). You had all the prep time you needed, and you knew where it was.

So, it seems like you could've set a trap outside the cave in order to damage it a bit (after all, it had to leave the cave at some point).

I'm not saying your tactics were terrible, but this seems like the kind of fight where the DM thought, "If they do this (certain thing), it'll be relatively easy for them to win."
Aladdar
03-29-05, 02:23 PM had it not been for the little girl we would have taken more time, but we believe this bear has been terrorizing the countryside and had taken this girl as it's next meal. We found a few other dead bodies in the cave and have found them all over the countryside.

So we felt we had to act fast to rescue her even if it put our life in peril. So I attempted to draw it to me as I had the best ac and let the rogue rescue her.
Jasoncorner
03-29-05, 02:28 PM Actually, that sounds like you misplayed the encounter. Even though the CR is far above your level, the bear was "trapped" in the cave (in that it couldn't ambush your or anything).
I'm not saying your tactics were terrible, but this seems like the kind of fight where the DM thought, "If they do this (certain thing), it'll be relatively easy for them to win."
Why this is true in terms of overall tactics to kill the bear, that was not there only objective. There was a little girl trapped in the cave, and who knows what the bear was doing (although why a girl was kidnapped by the King Kong of bears, I don't know; but that's a different thread.)

Plus, the DM should rarely create encounters that can only be solved in one way. Solutions that may seem obvious to a DM, may not seem so obvious to the player, who does not have all the information. This works for television and movies, but players cannot think of everything. I doubt a player would have dreamed up the plan of shooting a torpedo down a narrow ventilation shaft without even using the guidance of the targeting computer, but on film it's great!
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaulsen/starwars.gif
fallabel
03-29-05, 02:47 PM Well, I'm not saying that it's a great way to DM, but it seemed to me like that's what happened. Otherwise, one would have to assume that the DM was hoping for a TPK.

It's also possible that it was a black bear which happened to roll really well. A few sessions ago, my 3rd level Paladin almost got knocked out by a (CR 1/2) hobgoblin, which hit me with 2 consecutive critical hits.
BW0222
03-29-05, 03:06 PM Aladdar,

>Too strong of a fight for a first and 2nd level party. ...

>Did we just play this really really bad or is this a little high for us to tackle.

A 6hd brown bear is well above what any group of 1st or 2nd-levels should typically encounter. In a straight toe-to-toe encounter, you are toast. Most 5th-level PCs wouldn't survive the improved grapple and a couple of rounds of mauling. However, it's not totally inconceivable that a DM puts one in at 2nd-level. I'd except it, with the any of the following cases...

a) You were hunting it. You know how dangerous it is. You had all the time and reasonable resources necessary to prepare. Pit traps with spikes, bear traps, oil, missile weapons from the top of a cliff, leg traps, drop a rockslide on him, etc.

b) You can avoid the encounter. You realize that it is coming and have a good chance of just letting it be. For example, it is busy eating a carcass and you see it at a good distance. Stay downwind and you can get around it. Maybe sending a raven familiar off to lead it off in the wrong direction, etc.

c) You can flee. The bear isn't upon you immediately and you can climb some trees, jump off a cliff into a pond, run across a rope bridge, etc.

d) You can scare it off with reasonable risk. Oil, torches, etc. Bear reacts naturally and flees.

e) You have some method to communicate or pacify it. A druid with speak with animals, a ranger with wild empathy and some food, etc. a handful of goodberries to make her full, etc.

However, any such encouter would be a special situation requiring specific warnings, planning, and care on the DMs part. You need to consider if you had a reasonable chance and missed something -- asking the guide for information, planning, avoidance, signs of the bear, etc. -- or if the DM just didn't think it through.
GSHamster
03-29-05, 03:10 PM Off hand, I'd say that it was reasonably fair encounter. Hard, but fair.

Tactics you could have used:

1. Sanctuary on cleric, run in, pick up girl and run out.

2. Cause Fear on bear, and when it runs away, run in, get girl and run out.

3. Lure bear out with some fresh meat. Rogue sneaks past bear, and rescues girl.

4. Use ranged weapons to draw away the bear from the cave. Then rogue sneaks in and rescues girl.

I don't think it was likely that the party could kill the bear. But then again, that wasn't the goal of the encounter.
AramilWindwalker
03-29-05, 03:28 PM Eh, you really should have planned a little better. From how it sounds is you were sent to save the girl, found the cave, shot the bear on easy to reach ground, and got mauled. But then again this was a little high for you guys... We had something similar... 4 6th level chars, 1 4th, and 2 7th level fighting a young adult dlack dragon who could fly really well and see really well. We won in the end *hooray* A little more strategy could have helped...
Aladdar
03-29-05, 03:34 PM yeah I'm starting to think there were better strategies. The DMPC kept insisting we could take it out so he could get his ruby. The DM was even ticked when his NPC bit the dust, he expected him to live.

We didn't have any tools to really take on a bear and nothing to lure it out with other than shooting at it and running which is maybe what we should have done.

It's a good learning experience however, don't always assume that the DM hasn't put something in place that we can kill.
RogerWilco
03-29-05, 03:43 PM We once killed a bear as a full level 1 party (in 2nd edition), you just have to use ranged attacks. We had a trap outside it's cave, lured it outside then attacked it with bows and slings from a higher ledge, eventually it climbed up to us, but we dealt it the last blow after it had dealt it's first. Still was a scary fight.
If only the NPC died, then consider yourself lucky. You'll get tons of XP ;-)
With smart tactics a CR above the CR of the party is doable.
Aladdar
03-29-05, 04:04 PM well the fight is still going and it just killed the npc and I'm getting close to death if I don't stabalize.

I'm hoping we don't get a tpk. (This is my online message board campaign)
Arrowhen
03-29-05, 04:18 PM yeah I'm starting to think there were better strategies. The DMPC kept insisting we could take it out so he could get his ruby. The DM was even ticked when his NPC bit the dust, he expected him to live.

We didn't have any tools to really take on a bear and nothing to lure it out with other than shooting at it and running which is maybe what we should have done.

It's a good learning experience however, don't always assume that the DM hasn't put something in place that we can kill.
No, the lesson to be learned here is never, ever listen to a DMPC.
Moon-Lancer
03-29-05, 04:25 PM have the rogue shoot it with an arrow and try to lure it away, then have the claric heal you, grab the girl, have the rogue dubble back, then run and shoot arrows while the claric heals.

if you had a ranger or druid this encounter would have been a peace of cake with a high enuff wild empathy. No use crying over spilt milk.

If you can draw a quick sketch of the grid and were everyone is and all the charicters locations and what kind of skills they have i will try to help you out more.
Aladdar
03-29-05, 04:50 PM well the girl just begged for us to stop hurting shaggy so I'm thinking maybe we weren't supposed to actually fight the bear and we jumped the gun. I'm asking them to just kill the girl now.
fallabel
03-29-05, 05:28 PM Wait...kill the girl? Where'd that come from?
Arrowhen
03-29-05, 05:45 PM Ah, the wonderful world of message board gaming.
Aladdar
03-30-05, 08:31 AM I'm just joking about killing the girl. I'm just half dead cause she has a friggin bear for a friend and so is our friendly npc tracker.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aladdar 03-29-05, 01:30 PM	Too strong of a fight for a first and 2nd level party. We had me (2nd level fighter) another character 2nd level rogue a first lvl soulknife or whatever that psyon class is and a first lvl cleric also an npc character who was a tracker but that's all we know of him. I have 23 hp. The bear attacks me for 15 damage on the first attack and 13 damage on the second attack. He then turns on the npc character and hits him for 12 and 13 killing the npc character completely. I failed my save so now I'm at -7 bleeding. Cleric is running over to try and stabalize me. I looked up the stats on the bear and it has about 50 some odd hp. Did we just play this really really bad or is this a little high for us to tackle.
Jasoncorner 03-29-05, 01:43 PM	If it was a brown bear, then things were stacked against you. The Brown bear has a CR (Challenge Rating) of 4. Which means it is a fight that a fourth level party would expend about 20-25% of their resources (hit points, spells, etc.). Your party is mostly first level, with a few 2nd levels kicked in there, so a CR 2 monster would proably give the party a tough but winnable fight. Maybe somehting like a black bear, which only has 19 hitpoints, and can do a maxium damge per attack of 8 (1d4+4). This bear was obviously tougher. A CR 4 critter should, and sounds like it did, kick your pants in.
Magus Gar Kan 03-29-05, 01:45 PM	I'm guessing that you fought a brown bear. The creature has a CR of 4, Against a party with an average level of 1.5 (I am assuming the "tracker" was 1st level) it is a difficult to leathal challenge if my memory serves. Not an impossible challenge, but if the battle has not concluded then I'd suggest rolling new characters. Something like this is a melee kill machine, the only "safe" way to fight it would be at range, or with magic.
Losdeago 03-29-05, 01:48 PM	Same thing happened to me, Only We bluffed our way out of the fight of a level 10 encounter, (Playing 2nd-3rd level charaters) But you should ask you DM About Fleeing the battlefield Might help...But for that you might need to have everyone alive and not K.O.'d
Arrowhen 03-29-05, 01:50 PM	Did we just play this really really bad or is this a little high for us to tackle. Assuming this is a brown bear, it's a CR4 creature vs. your level 1.5 party--a very difficult encounter, but not impossible. Whether you played really really badly or not depends on the tactics you used. We need more information.
ehrin 03-29-05, 01:50 PM	That seems a bit tough for your level (a bit too much potential damage per round by the bear for your group). It also depends on how you played it... a smart party, with warning, should be able to take on a bear like that and most of the members survive. A party with no warning or preparation, would fare like you did.. with a casualty or two. With prep, you could have attacked from range first, cleric could have buffed a fighter a bit (bless, enlarge, whatever). the rogue could have prepped for flank/sneak attack, and with luck, you could have downed the bear with effort. You would have tried to avoid those damage dealing attacks. But if you just blindly walked up and the bear attacked, and got initiative, you would be lucky to survive. Seems a bit tough at the level you are, yes.
Aladdar 03-29-05, 01:54 PM	well we're supposed to be rescuing a little girl who was capture by the bear in the cave. The bear was guarding the girl so we didn't want to just run up and fight the bear in fear she'd be hurt. So I moved to the far right of the cave and plunked an arrow into the bear, the rogue is supposed to sneak in while I have its attention and rescue the girl. Anyhow, the Cleric cast bless, Bear charges me, swipes me and begins a grapple fest with me. The other guys get a few blows in before he knocks me unconscious and then turns and kills the npc.
Losdeago 03-29-05, 02:02 PM	I'm guessing that you fought a brown bear. The creature has a CR of 4, Against a party with an average level of 1.5 (I am assuming the "tracker" was 1st level) it is a difficult to leathal challenge if my memory serves. Not an impossible challenge, but if the battle has not concluded then I'd suggest rolling new characters. Something like this is a melee kill machine, the only "safe" way to fight it would be at range, or with magic. If he attacks from afar, he/ his comrades might get rush (I think thats the correct term) It will got a +2/3 to its attack so I would box it in and flank it and have your cleric off to the side as a healer...That might be your best bet. (I got to go ---I hate dail up)
fallabel 03-29-05, 02:11 PM	Actually, that sounds like you misplayed the encounter. Even though the CR is far above your level, the bear was "trapped" in the cave (in that it couldn't ambush your or anything). You had all the prep time you needed, and you knew where it was. So, it seems like you could've set a trap outside the cave in order to damage it a bit (after all, it had to leave the cave at some point). I'm not saying your tactics were terrible, but this seems like the kind of fight where the DM thought, "If they do this (certain thing), it'll be relatively easy for them to win."
Aladdar 03-29-05, 02:23 PM	had it not been for the little girl we would have taken more time, but we believe this bear has been terrorizing the countryside and had taken this girl as it's next meal. We found a few other dead bodies in the cave and have found them all over the countryside. So we felt we had to act fast to rescue her even if it put our life in peril. So I attempted to draw it to me as I had the best ac and let the rogue rescue her.
Jasoncorner 03-29-05, 02:28 PM	Actually, that sounds like you misplayed the encounter. Even though the CR is far above your level, the bear was "trapped" in the cave (in that it couldn't ambush your or anything). I'm not saying your tactics were terrible, but this seems like the kind of fight where the DM thought, "If they do this (certain thing), it'll be relatively easy for them to win." Why this is true in terms of overall tactics to kill the bear, that was not there only objective. There was a little girl trapped in the cave, and who knows what the bear was doing (although why a girl was kidnapped by the King Kong of bears, I don't know; but that's a different thread.) Plus, the DM should rarely create encounters that can only be solved in one way. Solutions that may seem obvious to a DM, may not seem so obvious to the player, who does not have all the information. This works for television and movies, but players cannot think of everything. I doubt a player would have dreamed up the plan of shooting a torpedo down a narrow ventilation shaft without even using the guidance of the targeting computer, but on film it's great! http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaulsen/starwars.gif
fallabel 03-29-05, 02:47 PM	Well, I'm not saying that it's a great way to DM, but it seemed to me like that's what happened. Otherwise, one would have to assume that the DM was hoping for a TPK. It's also possible that it was a black bear which happened to roll really well. A few sessions ago, my 3rd level Paladin almost got knocked out by a (CR 1/2) hobgoblin, which hit me with 2 consecutive critical hits.
BW0222 03-29-05, 03:06 PM	Aladdar, >Too strong of a fight for a first and 2nd level party. ... >Did we just play this really really bad or is this a little high for us to tackle. A 6hd brown bear is well above what any group of 1st or 2nd-levels should typically encounter. In a straight toe-to-toe encounter, you are toast. Most 5th-level PCs wouldn't survive the improved grapple and a couple of rounds of mauling. However, it's not totally inconceivable that a DM puts one in at 2nd-level. I'd except it, with the any of the following cases... a) You were hunting it. You know how dangerous it is. You had all the time and reasonable resources necessary to prepare. Pit traps with spikes, bear traps, oil, missile weapons from the top of a cliff, leg traps, drop a rockslide on him, etc. b) You can avoid the encounter. You realize that it is coming and have a good chance of just letting it be. For example, it is busy eating a carcass and you see it at a good distance. Stay downwind and you can get around it. Maybe sending a raven familiar off to lead it off in the wrong direction, etc. c) You can flee. The bear isn't upon you immediately and you can climb some trees, jump off a cliff into a pond, run across a rope bridge, etc. d) You can scare it off with reasonable risk. Oil, torches, etc. Bear reacts naturally and flees. e) You have some method to communicate or pacify it. A druid with speak with animals, a ranger with wild empathy and some food, etc. a handful of goodberries to make her full, etc. However, any such encouter would be a special situation requiring specific warnings, planning, and care on the DMs part. You need to consider if you had a reasonable chance and missed something -- asking the guide for information, planning, avoidance, signs of the bear, etc. -- or if the DM just didn't think it through.
GSHamster 03-29-05, 03:10 PM	Off hand, I'd say that it was reasonably fair encounter. Hard, but fair. Tactics you could have used: 1. Sanctuary on cleric, run in, pick up girl and run out. 2. Cause Fear on bear, and when it runs away, run in, get girl and run out. 3. Lure bear out with some fresh meat. Rogue sneaks past bear, and rescues girl. 4. Use ranged weapons to draw away the bear from the cave. Then rogue sneaks in and rescues girl. I don't think it was likely that the party could kill the bear. But then again, that wasn't the goal of the encounter.
AramilWindwalker 03-29-05, 03:28 PM	Eh, you really should have planned a little better. From how it sounds is you were sent to save the girl, found the cave, shot the bear on easy to reach ground, and got mauled. But then again this was a little high for you guys... We had something similar... 4 6th level chars, 1 4th, and 2 7th level fighting a young adult dlack dragon who could fly really well and see really well. We won in the end hooray A little more strategy could have helped...
Aladdar 03-29-05, 03:34 PM	yeah I'm starting to think there were better strategies. The DMPC kept insisting we could take it out so he could get his ruby. The DM was even ticked when his NPC bit the dust, he expected him to live. We didn't have any tools to really take on a bear and nothing to lure it out with other than shooting at it and running which is maybe what we should have done. It's a good learning experience however, don't always assume that the DM hasn't put something in place that we can kill.
RogerWilco 03-29-05, 03:43 PM	We once killed a bear as a full level 1 party (in 2nd edition), you just have to use ranged attacks. We had a trap outside it's cave, lured it outside then attacked it with bows and slings from a higher ledge, eventually it climbed up to us, but we dealt it the last blow after it had dealt it's first. Still was a scary fight. If only the NPC died, then consider yourself lucky. You'll get tons of XP ;-) With smart tactics a CR above the CR of the party is doable.
Aladdar 03-29-05, 04:04 PM	well the fight is still going and it just killed the npc and I'm getting close to death if I don't stabalize. I'm hoping we don't get a tpk. (This is my online message board campaign)
Arrowhen 03-29-05, 04:18 PM	yeah I'm starting to think there were better strategies. The DMPC kept insisting we could take it out so he could get his ruby. The DM was even ticked when his NPC bit the dust, he expected him to live. We didn't have any tools to really take on a bear and nothing to lure it out with other than shooting at it and running which is maybe what we should have done. It's a good learning experience however, don't always assume that the DM hasn't put something in place that we can kill. No, the lesson to be learned here is never, ever listen to a DMPC.
Moon-Lancer 03-29-05, 04:25 PM	have the rogue shoot it with an arrow and try to lure it away, then have the claric heal you, grab the girl, have the rogue dubble back, then run and shoot arrows while the claric heals. if you had a ranger or druid this encounter would have been a peace of cake with a high enuff wild empathy. No use crying over spilt milk. If you can draw a quick sketch of the grid and were everyone is and all the charicters locations and what kind of skills they have i will try to help you out more.
Aladdar 03-29-05, 04:50 PM	well the girl just begged for us to stop hurting shaggy so I'm thinking maybe we weren't supposed to actually fight the bear and we jumped the gun. I'm asking them to just kill the girl now.
fallabel 03-29-05, 05:28 PM	Wait...kill the girl? Where'd that come from?
Arrowhen 03-29-05, 05:45 PM	Ah, the wonderful world of message board gaming.
Aladdar 03-30-05, 08:31 AM	I'm just joking about killing the girl. I'm just half dead cause she has a friggin bear for a friend and so is our friendly npc tracker.