Is being too powerful a good reason to ditch a character? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is being too powerful a good reason to ditch a character? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neratos
11-24-06, 04:22 PM I am having a problem. I am currently playing a divine prankster who can bluff nearly anyone (+68) and create figments that are almost impossible to disbelieve (DC38+spell Level). And I feel silly playing this over optimized character, and would like to ditch him in favor for a character that is more balanced and in line with the party. Am i wrong in feeling this way?
Kazeofwinds
11-24-06, 04:24 PM I'd say not, if you think you're messing with the power curve of the game, feel free to tell your DM and ask to have a new character introduced or something.
Shaggy_Shaggs
11-24-06, 04:38 PM I don't think a character being exceptionally powerful means you need to get rid of it.

No longer having fun with it, on the other hand, that's a pretty good reason to change it. Talk it over with your DM, find out if he's got any plans that rely on the character being around with you as its player so he can change them if necessary, and get to building a new one.
Rowan_Whispercloak
11-24-06, 04:38 PM Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to do so. You can easily show some restraint and if I recall your figments are useless again mindless creatures and some other assorted types. But if you are feeling too powerful then just tone it down a little on your own.

But if you feel your character is taking the fun out of the game for the other players or yourself then talk to you DM and see if you can make a new character or perhaps "retrain" this character to be more balanced help keep continuity (sp?)

I would personally go with the second option, especially if you have invested some time in developing this character's personality and ties to the party, but that is just me.
Salla
11-24-06, 04:49 PM Actually, quick question ... what level are you? Those numbers may not be too out of whack if you're, say, 40th level. :)
SeraphimDominion
11-24-06, 06:36 PM Yeah, really. Even at 20th, +68 to bluff is kinda rough to get. 23 ranks, Charisma...30? We'll say 40. Add a circlet of persuasion, synergies from two skills, and Skill Focus, that's still only +48 or so, if my math is right. Where are you getting that extra +20? Custom magic item?
Neratos
11-24-06, 07:58 PM I am 15th level. I have a 30 cha +10, 18 ranks, 10+ comp item, and +30 glibness. Also mindless creatures automatically fail will disbelief when it comes to figments. The reason is cause they have no memories to compar the illusion to. Figments can't hurt you in the slightest, but when i make a wall, you are gona believe it is there. Phantasoms are no use, but glamers are the same. This is from wizards article on illusions.

I am 1 level Cleric (gnome and charm domain) 4 levels Divine Bard (UA) 10 levels Divine Prankster. I think i took my optimization too far when i made this character. The real reason i am disliking him is that i put no thought into his story or roleplay aspects, and am falling flat there.

For my DCs 10 base + 12 Cha (with charm domain) + 2 Spell focus (greater) + 1 Gnome + 10 divine prankster (invest illusion, figments only) + 1 Misleading Song + 2 Captivating Melody=DC 38 + Spell level. I can make the DCs this high for 4 castings per day during a 1 minute period. Otherwise they stay at 33 + Spell level for an additional 6 castings per day.
Cryforge
11-24-06, 08:17 PM I would only get rid of the character if you've found that it's no longer fun to be able to do everything with a convincing bluff.

Otherwise, you might as well stick with him for now.
Elemental_Elf
11-24-06, 08:25 PM If you are not having fun with the character, seppuku is always acceptable. Just have a new character ready to go before you do it. :D
Neratos
11-24-06, 08:31 PM Thanks for the advice, gonna talk it over with the DM and figure something out.
Millennium
11-24-06, 08:58 PM If you're not having fun with the character anymore, then retire him. There's no need for character suicide here: perhaps he simply retires from the adventuring life. Perhaps your character is contacted by the leaders of his church, and they want him to be the high priest of their newest cathedral. Maybe an old girlfriend comes back into his life, and he decides to settle down with her. Perhaps the hunger for knowledge inherent in the bard class gets the better to him, and he founds a university with all the funds he's gotten from adventuring.

Talk with the DM. There are plenty of happier endings then seppuku.
Hochiu
11-25-06, 12:49 AM That, and having a living retired character allows a reintroduction if you ever want to come back to him because of a failure of your future class concepts or what not.
KurenaiYami
11-25-06, 01:21 AM Go with the "Vash the Stampede" route.

"Oh look, I accidentally dodged those bullets. All 500 of them."

<_<

>_>
Vaelan
11-25-06, 02:32 AM My characters are often substantially more powerful than they need to be. I play down to the group's level with a couple of tricks prepared just in case they are needed.

Just stop telling lies that only work because the sound of your voice apparently makes peoples' brains stop working and cut back on the figments.
kelvinaw273
11-25-06, 04:39 AM I would have to concur with the 'retire him if you are not having fun' school of thought here. You have a Bluff rating that defies belief from any normal perspective, so unless the DM runs in a lot of creatures immune to your figments you are going to walk EVERY encounter. The only other way the DM might play it is that Glibness and your item do not enhance magical effects, just mundane bluffing (which is what I would do with a character optimised to this extreme, to be honest, for the sakes of everyone else in the game). That leaves you with "only" +28 to your Bluff score, which is still very high by achievable on a save.

I agree that it is no fun playing a character that outshines everybody else, for you or them, or the DM. If a character gets too powerful for the party, then the DM has failed in their job or else you have way over-optimised.
The White Sorcerer
11-25-06, 04:55 AM I am 15th level. I have a 30 cha+

May I inquire how you've managed to get that Charisma?
KurenaiYami
11-25-06, 05:03 AM May I inquire how you've managed to get that Charisma?

20 base, 3 from levelling, 6 from Cloak of Charisma...

Maybe he got a hold of a wish at some point...
The White Sorcerer
11-25-06, 08:12 AM 20 base

How?
Roivas
11-25-06, 08:35 AM Getting a 20 charisma is quite possible assuming he is a non-standard race that gains a Cha bonus for other losses.
But the uber bluff character with no background, in my mind would zero fun to play. So I would take a road out towards less unstoppable characters. It isn't fun unless there is some chance of failure.
Also if you wanted to have people stop dealing with your uber bluff just remember how easy it is to gain modifiers against it, having strong reason to suspect otherwise is a +20 to any sense motive check. And true seeing can negate any illusion without a roll. So your charcter, while powerful in his specific area of expertise might be pathetically breakable by a psion [telepath] with true seeing. Your character could still be challenged, just not by conventional means.
Sunic_Flames
11-25-06, 08:45 AM Getting a 20 charisma is quite possible assuming he is a non-standard race that gains a Cha bonus for other losses.
But the uber bluff character with no background, in my mind would zero fun to play. So I would take a road out towards less unstoppable characters. It isn't fun unless there is some chance of failure.
Also if you wanted to have people stop dealing with your uber bluff just remember how easy it is to gain modifiers against it, having strong reason to suspect otherwise is a +20 to any sense motive check. And true seeing can negate any illusion without a roll. So your charcter, while powerful in his specific area of expertise might be pathetically breakable by a psion [telepath] with true seeing. Your character could still be challenged, just not by conventional means.

Could even be 21 or 22, some of em have +4. I know my favored race (kitsune) does. :P
The White Sorcerer
11-25-06, 09:43 AM Getting a 20 charisma is quite possible assuming he is a non-standard race that gains a Cha bonus for other losses.

Divine prankster = gnome = no bonus to Charisma.
Neratos
11-25-06, 10:40 AM 30 cha was easy. Just took the majority of my gold. 18 base, +3 ability, +6 item +3 book.

When i hit 20 it will be 36, +2 ability +2 more from book and +2 from gnome paragon
The White Sorcerer
11-25-06, 12:35 PM My advice is to keep the character. Develop his personality and other fluff elements, and perhaps ask your DM if you can redo the crunchy bits and downgrade the character a bit.
High Octane
11-25-06, 07:43 PM +2 from gnome paragon
Is it just me or do paragons tend to wreck curves?
Cherrn
11-25-06, 09:00 PM If you're tired of him, roll up a new character. It's as simple as that. Don't kill him though, have him realise that he can make people believe anything he wants them to believe, and make him wander off to formulate the greatest lie ever percieved, a lie so great, that if it was told, the world would end as we know it. Then hand the character sheet to your gm for use as an NPC.
KurenaiYami
11-26-06, 04:22 AM For the record, if I was that skilled in lying, I would try idiotic bluffs.

BBEG: "Kill him!"
Gnome: "You're too late. I'm already dead."
BBEG: "...what?"
Gnome: "I am dead. This is just an illusion speaking to you."
BBEG: "...huh..."
Gnome: "Now if you'll excuse me..." *Casts spell to make it seem like he shimmered away, when he really just walked into the BBEG's treasure room to steal crap.*
Ashok_Lal
11-26-06, 10:48 PM For the record, if I was that skilled in lying, I would try idiotic bluffs.

BBEG: "Kill him!"
Gnome: "You're too late. I'm already dead."
BBEG: "...what?"
Gnome: "I am dead. This is just an illusion speaking to you."
BBEG: "...huh..."
Gnome: "Now if you'll excuse me..." *Casts spell to make it seem like he shimmered away, when he really just walked into the BBEG's treasure room to steal crap.*

with a bluff like that it would go more like this
BBEG: "kill him!"
Gnome: "Don;t you mean reward him."
BBEG: "...what?"
Gnome: "Well you work for me now. i'm thersty get me a drink. & hurry up about it."
BBEG: "...what? Oh sorry sir, I don't know what I was thinking. Do you want ice with that.
Gnome: "could you loan me a million GP?
BBEG: "I don't have that sort of money! But I could borrow some, till then you can have my lair, minnions & this doomsday device i was going to use to destroy the world, moohawhawh-"
Gnome: "shut up!"
BBEG: "yes sir!!!"
lancean
11-27-06, 11:18 AM There are two occasions on which to volunteer a character for mandatory retirement.

1 - the character is far more powerful than the other PC's (this is no fun for the other players)

2 - The character is too powerful for the GM to handle and is wrecking plots (this is no fun for everybody, as the game goes bad)

If either of these happens, the game will stop being fun, and therefore might stop being run.
angryman
11-27-06, 11:32 AM I had a warrior type who was absolutely dominating in combat, he really just kicked everything's ass. I was also an alcoholic and depressive (my character, not me!) so I tended to be apathetic and not fight as well as I could. I remember I was half drunk and we were attacked by some kind of nasty big monster.
DM: OK, the beast attacks the priest, what do you do?
Me: I take a swig of my bottle, put it down and draw my bow.
Priest: Help me!
Me: OK, I take out an arrow and have a leisurely shot at it, taking my time. (forfeiting my iterative attacks)
DM: OK, roll...
Me: A crit. (I kill it.) I sit back down and pick up my bottle.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-27-06, 11:58 AM For the record, if I was that skilled in lying, I would try idiotic bluffs.

That reminds me of a Cha 8 character with no ranks in Bluff that I had that tried to convince an ogre that a gelatinous cube was a pile of tasty jelly. I rolled something like a seven. I'll always remember how the DM rolled the die, looked down at it, looked up, and stated "The ogre says 'Really?'".

This has been R_L_Y's worthless rambling of the day.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neratos 11-24-06, 04:22 PM	I am having a problem. I am currently playing a divine prankster who can bluff nearly anyone (+68) and create figments that are almost impossible to disbelieve (DC38+spell Level). And I feel silly playing this over optimized character, and would like to ditch him in favor for a character that is more balanced and in line with the party. Am i wrong in feeling this way?
Kazeofwinds 11-24-06, 04:24 PM	I'd say not, if you think you're messing with the power curve of the game, feel free to tell your DM and ask to have a new character introduced or something.
Shaggy_Shaggs 11-24-06, 04:38 PM	I don't think a character being exceptionally powerful means you need to get rid of it. No longer having fun with it, on the other hand, that's a pretty good reason to change it. Talk it over with your DM, find out if he's got any plans that rely on the character being around with you as its player so he can change them if necessary, and get to building a new one.
Rowan_Whispercloak 11-24-06, 04:38 PM	Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to do so. You can easily show some restraint and if I recall your figments are useless again mindless creatures and some other assorted types. But if you are feeling too powerful then just tone it down a little on your own. But if you feel your character is taking the fun out of the game for the other players or yourself then talk to you DM and see if you can make a new character or perhaps "retrain" this character to be more balanced help keep continuity (sp?) I would personally go with the second option, especially if you have invested some time in developing this character's personality and ties to the party, but that is just me.
Salla 11-24-06, 04:49 PM	Actually, quick question ... what level are you? Those numbers may not be too out of whack if you're, say, 40th level. :)
SeraphimDominion 11-24-06, 06:36 PM	Yeah, really. Even at 20th, +68 to bluff is kinda rough to get. 23 ranks, Charisma...30? We'll say 40. Add a circlet of persuasion, synergies from two skills, and Skill Focus, that's still only +48 or so, if my math is right. Where are you getting that extra +20? Custom magic item?
Neratos 11-24-06, 07:58 PM	I am 15th level. I have a 30 cha +10, 18 ranks, 10+ comp item, and +30 glibness. Also mindless creatures automatically fail will disbelief when it comes to figments. The reason is cause they have no memories to compar the illusion to. Figments can't hurt you in the slightest, but when i make a wall, you are gona believe it is there. Phantasoms are no use, but glamers are the same. This is from wizards article on illusions. I am 1 level Cleric (gnome and charm domain) 4 levels Divine Bard (UA) 10 levels Divine Prankster. I think i took my optimization too far when i made this character. The real reason i am disliking him is that i put no thought into his story or roleplay aspects, and am falling flat there. For my DCs 10 base + 12 Cha (with charm domain) + 2 Spell focus (greater) + 1 Gnome + 10 divine prankster (invest illusion, figments only) + 1 Misleading Song + 2 Captivating Melody=DC 38 + Spell level. I can make the DCs this high for 4 castings per day during a 1 minute period. Otherwise they stay at 33 + Spell level for an additional 6 castings per day.
Cryforge 11-24-06, 08:17 PM	I would only get rid of the character if you've found that it's no longer fun to be able to do everything with a convincing bluff. Otherwise, you might as well stick with him for now.
Elemental_Elf 11-24-06, 08:25 PM	If you are not having fun with the character, seppuku is always acceptable. Just have a new character ready to go before you do it. :D
Neratos 11-24-06, 08:31 PM	Thanks for the advice, gonna talk it over with the DM and figure something out.
Millennium 11-24-06, 08:58 PM	If you're not having fun with the character anymore, then retire him. There's no need for character suicide here: perhaps he simply retires from the adventuring life. Perhaps your character is contacted by the leaders of his church, and they want him to be the high priest of their newest cathedral. Maybe an old girlfriend comes back into his life, and he decides to settle down with her. Perhaps the hunger for knowledge inherent in the bard class gets the better to him, and he founds a university with all the funds he's gotten from adventuring. Talk with the DM. There are plenty of happier endings then seppuku.
Hochiu 11-25-06, 12:49 AM	That, and having a living retired character allows a reintroduction if you ever want to come back to him because of a failure of your future class concepts or what not.
KurenaiYami 11-25-06, 01:21 AM	Go with the "Vash the Stampede" route. "Oh look, I accidentally dodged those bullets. All 500 of them." <_< >_>
Vaelan 11-25-06, 02:32 AM	My characters are often substantially more powerful than they need to be. I play down to the group's level with a couple of tricks prepared just in case they are needed. Just stop telling lies that only work because the sound of your voice apparently makes peoples' brains stop working and cut back on the figments.
kelvinaw273 11-25-06, 04:39 AM	I would have to concur with the 'retire him if you are not having fun' school of thought here. You have a Bluff rating that defies belief from any normal perspective, so unless the DM runs in a lot of creatures immune to your figments you are going to walk EVERY encounter. The only other way the DM might play it is that Glibness and your item do not enhance magical effects, just mundane bluffing (which is what I would do with a character optimised to this extreme, to be honest, for the sakes of everyone else in the game). That leaves you with "only" +28 to your Bluff score, which is still very high by achievable on a save. I agree that it is no fun playing a character that outshines everybody else, for you or them, or the DM. If a character gets too powerful for the party, then the DM has failed in their job or else you have way over-optimised.
The White Sorcerer 11-25-06, 04:55 AM	I am 15th level. I have a 30 cha+ May I inquire how you've managed to get that Charisma?
KurenaiYami 11-25-06, 05:03 AM	May I inquire how you've managed to get that Charisma? 20 base, 3 from levelling, 6 from Cloak of Charisma... Maybe he got a hold of a wish at some point...
The White Sorcerer 11-25-06, 08:12 AM	20 base How?
Roivas 11-25-06, 08:35 AM	Getting a 20 charisma is quite possible assuming he is a non-standard race that gains a Cha bonus for other losses. But the uber bluff character with no background, in my mind would zero fun to play. So I would take a road out towards less unstoppable characters. It isn't fun unless there is some chance of failure. Also if you wanted to have people stop dealing with your uber bluff just remember how easy it is to gain modifiers against it, having strong reason to suspect otherwise is a +20 to any sense motive check. And true seeing can negate any illusion without a roll. So your charcter, while powerful in his specific area of expertise might be pathetically breakable by a psion [telepath] with true seeing. Your character could still be challenged, just not by conventional means.
Sunic_Flames 11-25-06, 08:45 AM	Getting a 20 charisma is quite possible assuming he is a non-standard race that gains a Cha bonus for other losses. But the uber bluff character with no background, in my mind would zero fun to play. So I would take a road out towards less unstoppable characters. It isn't fun unless there is some chance of failure. Also if you wanted to have people stop dealing with your uber bluff just remember how easy it is to gain modifiers against it, having strong reason to suspect otherwise is a +20 to any sense motive check. And true seeing can negate any illusion without a roll. So your charcter, while powerful in his specific area of expertise might be pathetically breakable by a psion [telepath] with true seeing. Your character could still be challenged, just not by conventional means. Could even be 21 or 22, some of em have +4. I know my favored race (kitsune) does. :P
The White Sorcerer 11-25-06, 09:43 AM	Getting a 20 charisma is quite possible assuming he is a non-standard race that gains a Cha bonus for other losses. Divine prankster = gnome = no bonus to Charisma.
Neratos 11-25-06, 10:40 AM	30 cha was easy. Just took the majority of my gold. 18 base, +3 ability, +6 item +3 book. When i hit 20 it will be 36, +2 ability +2 more from book and +2 from gnome paragon
The White Sorcerer 11-25-06, 12:35 PM	My advice is to keep the character. Develop his personality and other fluff elements, and perhaps ask your DM if you can redo the crunchy bits and downgrade the character a bit.
High Octane 11-25-06, 07:43 PM	+2 from gnome paragon Is it just me or do paragons tend to wreck curves?
Cherrn 11-25-06, 09:00 PM	If you're tired of him, roll up a new character. It's as simple as that. Don't kill him though, have him realise that he can make people believe anything he wants them to believe, and make him wander off to formulate the greatest lie ever percieved, a lie so great, that if it was told, the world would end as we know it. Then hand the character sheet to your gm for use as an NPC.
KurenaiYami 11-26-06, 04:22 AM	For the record, if I was that skilled in lying, I would try idiotic bluffs. BBEG: "Kill him!" Gnome: "You're too late. I'm already dead." BBEG: "...what?" Gnome: "I am dead. This is just an illusion speaking to you." BBEG: "...huh..." Gnome: "Now if you'll excuse me..." Casts spell to make it seem like he shimmered away, when he really just walked into the BBEG's treasure room to steal crap.
Ashok_Lal 11-26-06, 10:48 PM	For the record, if I was that skilled in lying, I would try idiotic bluffs. BBEG: "Kill him!" Gnome: "You're too late. I'm already dead." BBEG: "...what?" Gnome: "I am dead. This is just an illusion speaking to you." BBEG: "...huh..." Gnome: "Now if you'll excuse me..." Casts spell to make it seem like he shimmered away, when he really just walked into the BBEG's treasure room to steal crap. with a bluff like that it would go more like this BBEG: "kill him!" Gnome: "Don;t you mean reward him." BBEG: "...what?" Gnome: "Well you work for me now. i'm thersty get me a drink. & hurry up about it." BBEG: "...what? Oh sorry sir, I don't know what I was thinking. Do you want ice with that. Gnome: "could you loan me a million GP? BBEG: "I don't have that sort of money! But I could borrow some, till then you can have my lair, minnions & this doomsday device i was going to use to destroy the world, moohawhawh-" Gnome: "shut up!" BBEG: "yes sir!!!"
lancean 11-27-06, 11:18 AM	There are two occasions on which to volunteer a character for mandatory retirement. 1 - the character is far more powerful than the other PC's (this is no fun for the other players) 2 - The character is too powerful for the GM to handle and is wrecking plots (this is no fun for everybody, as the game goes bad) If either of these happens, the game will stop being fun, and therefore might stop being run.
angryman 11-27-06, 11:32 AM	I had a warrior type who was absolutely dominating in combat, he really just kicked everything's ass. I was also an alcoholic and depressive (my character, not me!) so I tended to be apathetic and not fight as well as I could. I remember I was half drunk and we were attacked by some kind of nasty big monster. DM: OK, the beast attacks the priest, what do you do? Me: I take a swig of my bottle, put it down and draw my bow. Priest: Help me! Me: OK, I take out an arrow and have a leisurely shot at it, taking my time. (forfeiting my iterative attacks) DM: OK, roll... Me: A crit. (I kill it.) I sit back down and pick up my bottle.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-27-06, 11:58 AM	For the record, if I was that skilled in lying, I would try idiotic bluffs. That reminds me of a Cha 8 character with no ranks in Bluff that I had that tried to convince an ogre that a gelatinous cube was a pile of tasty jelly. I rolled something like a seven. I'll always remember how the DM rolled the die, looked down at it, looked up, and stated "The ogre says 'Really?'". This has been R_L_Y's worthless rambling of the day.