Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Doopliss 09-12-05, 01:51 PM	I did some searching, but most of the complaints mention death attacks and other abilities I'm completely unfamilliar with. At the same time, alot of people pester me about the ninja's unbalanced-ness. Is the CA ninja really that unbalanced and I'm not seeing it, or is it a harmless misunderstanding? On a side note, I didn't really see why not to give this ninja a greatsword, thinking it would be something fresh, a stealthy greatsword wielder.(makes encumberance difficult though.) From a reasonable standpoint,(not just numbers) should I swap this out for a more "stealthy" weapon? Thanks in advance.
Solik 09-12-05, 02:00 PM	I don't recall the CA ninja having death attacks. Maybe the Oriental Adventures one? I didn't find it unbalanced when one of my players tried it, but it was a low-level campaign and she was inexperienced, so I dunno.
Doopliss 09-12-05, 02:02 PM	Actually, the CA ninja didn't have a death attack, only a watered-down sneak attack. That's why I though all the complaints might be directed towards a different ninja.
BeyondFated 09-12-05, 02:02 PM	Unbalancing? Heck, I thought it was underpowered! But, then again, I only glanced over it.
TheRedRobedWizard 09-12-05, 02:03 PM	Well, the CA ninja would be great if: 1) It had Sneak Attack instead of Sudden Strike. 2) Its Ki abilities lasted for longer than one turn. 3) It got Evasion at a more useful level, like 2 or 3. As it stands, its an average class. Heck, even the Oriental Adventures ninja was rather underpowered. I mean, it got Fighter BAB and d6 HD and 4+Int Mod skills, good Will saves for some reason... It was interesting, but not worth the hassle. -TRRW
Doopliss 09-12-05, 02:08 PM	Thanks, I didn't want to cheat the other players and the DM isn't that good at spotting overpowered classes(niether am I admittedly, who also DMs) Any opinions on the greatsword?
Solik 09-12-05, 02:11 PM	It's a weird concept. It's hard to imagine a character designed for stealth and subterfuge carrying around a weapon as big as he is. But hey, it's your campaign. Or, well. It's the DM's campaign, based on your last post? In which case you'd just have to ask him what he thinks. You could always take a feat for it.
Doopliss 09-12-05, 02:16 PM	Actually, I took two. :) Martial weapon proficiency for it and quick draw(mostly for flavour, he's usually going to have it sheathed.)
Count Arioch the 28th 09-12-05, 04:04 PM	The ghost-faced killers are ninja/fighters with bastard swords. that's close to a greatsword.
Flushmaster 09-12-05, 04:45 PM	I don't think that the CA ninja is overpowered. I don't think it's underpowered either, just tricky to use. A ninja can sneak around just like a rogue thanks to many common clas skills, but most of their special abilities are focused on combat. When you don't wear armor and only have a d6 for a hit die, you want to be careful about which fights you pick. I'd suggest tactics like tumbling or (even better) sneaking past tougher foes and going after enemy spellcasters, archers, etc. As for the greatsword, I say go for it. Not only is it a cool idea, but think about it, really. What is your MO? Sneak up and then suddenly hit with overpowering force. Shields aren't a good idea so why not go with a really big sword? A padded scabbard and quickdraw would negate most issues. I could see some need for adjustment if crawling through a cramped tunnel or such, but in most situations your character's own nimbleness (dexterity and ranks in appropriate skills) should account for any minor twists and bends necessary when, say, climbing through a window.
Doopliss 09-12-05, 06:04 PM	Thanks for the tips. :) I like the tumbling idea, but I'll usually just end up doing a ghost step. I'm level three and we tend to run pretty short adventures, so why not get a sudden strike in at the same time?
Gedrin 09-12-05, 07:02 PM	Traditionally, for ninja, the problem with large weapons that look like large weapons is they are bad for infiltration. Disguise, stealth, climbing, all of these are made more difficult toting a 5+ foot rigid piece of steel that is obviously a weapon. You're not sneaking through pipes or trees or getting past the guards with this thing. Face it, the 2H Sword is a large, obviously dangerous thing. Even wrapped up, don't be surprised if the soldiers you pass ask what you've got strapped back there. However, ninja worked mostly with other ninja, and I'm guessing you've got less subtle folks to work with. If you're not going to be infiltrating, then there's little reason to be concerned. In fact, while it's not very "ninja", if all you want is tactical suprise in order to hit people as hard as possible, the BigSword(TM) is very good at getting the second part done. If I were going to make a suggestion, I'd go with a scythe or some sort of two handed pick. Solid damage, extraordinary crit, and it can still be made to pass as a tool to most guards. That would seem more "ninja" to me.
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-12-05, 07:19 PM	I agree....felt underpowered to me. i wanna fix it, comeon! a wizard can use etheral jaunt at what, it's a 5th level spell right? so he can use it at 9th level? but the ninja has to wait to level 20?
Ut-Napishtim 09-12-05, 07:46 PM	Yeah, I'm not really seeing the whole greatsword thing. You can use a Katana two-handed after all, and it's a heck of a lot smaller and lighter w/o sacrificing much damage. Plus it seems to fit the flavor more to me than Mel Gibson's Scottish Claymore from Braveheart. Aye there me boyo, I'm a Ninja and this 'ere's me Ninja sword! :confused:
Doopliss 09-12-05, 08:45 PM	Actually, about the ninja flavour... The game really isn't an oriental themed one, so I'm merely a specially trained monk(still have a clan and all, but even then it's a monastery) If I were going to make a suggestion, I'd go with a scythe or some sort of two handed pick. THANK YOU! My DM didn't seem to think a scythe was ninja-like, so I decided on a greatsword. ;) Still, I kind of like the style. It really sets Mcninjerton(stupid name I know, it's a placeholder until I can htink of a real one) apart from your average ninja. Disguise, stealth, climbing, all of these are made more difficult toting a 5+ foot rigid piece of steel that is obviously a weapon. Actually, not so much as you'd think. The sheathe goes across the back which prevents it from getting in the way, and despite the weight I travel really light, so I still qualify for the light load easilly. As for disguise, that isn't really Mcninjerton's way of doing it.(that and I really can't afford to give charisma a high score when there's Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and to a lesser extent Intelligence and Constitution to worry about.) I'd be more likely to find another way in(over thier heads, scale the wall...) or ghost step. If presented with no other choice I can wear heavy robes(perhaps a backpack or armor above the sheath)covering the sheath.
The Game 09-13-05, 12:45 AM	As one who practices Ninjitsu, both body and weapons training, I can assure you that your about as likely to find a Ninja carrying a Greatsword as you are a Southern Democrat. While not trying to boast or sound big, but if I were to ever utilize the Ninja class, I would limit myself weapon wise to: Swords (Short sword preferable over a Mastercrafted bastard sword that is the katana), bo staff (Quaterstaff), Kali Sticks, Sap's, Bows (Once again, Short Bow prefered over its bigger cousin), punching daggers, daggers, shurikens, and shortspears, depending on what job you were peforming. However, that is just personal, and it really is up to you what you want your char to be armed with. As for the class however, I dont know if its unbalanced, never really looked at it.
Gedrin 09-13-05, 04:12 AM	Actually, not so much as you'd think. Tell you what, strap a broom to your back and walk around your house for an hour. Just walk around, in and out of doors, maybe try to do the dishes. After that, imagine what it would be like if the broom weight 15 pounds.
Sjay1 09-13-05, 04:46 AM	i agree...i just gave it a shot.. you should see what my place looks like now...
Solidcobra 09-13-05, 04:47 AM	As one who practices Ninjitsu, both body and weapons training, I can assure you that your about as likely to find a Ninja carrying a Greatsword as you are a Southern Democrat. While not trying to boast or sound big, but if I were to ever utilize the Ninja class, I would limit myself weapon wise to: Swords (Short sword preferable over a Mastercrafted bastard sword that is the katana), bo staff (Quaterstaff), Kali Sticks, Sap's, Bows (Once again, Short Bow prefered over its bigger cousin), punching daggers, daggers, shurikens, and shortspears, depending on what job you were peforming. However, that is just personal, and it really is up to you what you want your char to be armed with. As for the class however, I dont know if its unbalanced, never really looked at it. I wondered how long it'd take for a "ninjitsu expert" to come by. They always enter these topics sooner or later. "I alone hold the secrets to being a real ninja. listen to me cuz i say so!" It's FANTASY! Fireballs are tossed left and right, a fighter can get a grenade shoved down his throat and detonated and survive, then surely a damn ninja can have a greatsword strapped to his back. The class, by the way, is underpowered. just play a normal rogue, or a rogue/fighter/ghost-faced killer.
Doopliss 09-13-05, 09:07 AM	Well, the difference there would be use of the sheathe which wouldn't be tied all the way down(I'd imagine a shoulder strap, a neck one would strangle him and how else can you secure it? You really can't balance a greatsword/bastard sword on your belt.). I'm pretty sure the broom wouldn't really stop me under those conditions. It might be a bit distracting, but no more than the katana everyone's suggesting. They're really not that different if you check the players handbook. To clarify, I don't mean a grossly oversized zwiehander/cloud strife ripoff. It would be something much more on par with the players handbook example. I also figured proficiency changes depending on your class. Mages would learn how to stop it from interfering with thier casting(they still can't use somatic components, of course)like armor,(I don't know, sounding like randomly hefting a greatsword would make it hard to cast without training. (of course, it doesn't really do that, though the improvisation required to cast while wealding it could lead to part of the nonproficient epenalty. To clarify, he'd still learn to fight with it) a monk(admittedly, who has no reason to learn it) would spend time meditating on it and learning how to maintain one's focus while lifting such heavy objects. Fighers start with proficiency but would need to learn how to focus with such awkward weapons as Exotic ones while still using thier martial training with all weapons to its best effect. And a rogue/ninja would learn how to stop it impeding thier stealth/acrobatics and how to best bring it to strike critical areas. Or do you think that should be reserved for Focus? Sounds to me like something you'd learn in initial training. Disclaimer: all the above examples are entirely flavour and would only ever be used to solve non-handbook-covered rules disputes
CaoSlayer 09-13-05, 09:30 AM	THANK YOU! My DM didn't seem to think a scythe was ninja-like, so I decided on a greatsword. ;) Still, I kind of like the style. It really sets Mcninjerton(stupid name I know, it's a placeholder until I can htink of a real one) apart from your average ninja. instead a wester scythe you should try one of the oriental version ,that it is the kama or the guisame. Actually the guisame it is a typical ninja weapon.
TheRedRobedWizard 09-13-05, 10:32 AM	Well, beyond the rolley-eyes at the "ninjutsu" expert (sorry if you really *are* an expert, but saying so pretty much kills your ninja-itude)... A greatsword wielding ninja is quite similar to what one of my players is planning for our next campaign: an Unfettered wielding an oversized greatsword in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. Lots of tumbling and killing and such. Don't worry too much about the "realism" of it. Just have fun. Also, I know quite a lot of Southern Democrats. So there, Ninja-Man has been debunked. Southern Democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrat) -TRRW
StandardIdiotPC 09-13-05, 03:48 PM	First off I can make a list of Democrat Senators that are from the south if you want but that would be excessive. Now more to the point, the ninja is not under or over powered from what I have seen. However, I have noticed if played wrong the ninja becomes totally useless, more so than some other classes. Also a ninja can use a great sword with a few feats. Is it realistic, of coarse not, but it is cool. A friend of mine had a great sword wielding ninja/fighter in a group. He was nasty because when attacking from invisible he could power attack the great sword and still have a really good chance of hitting even on well armored enemies. With the sudden strike damage and the damage from wielding in two hands he could do some good damage to enemies. So I say go ahead with your great sword ninja. Sure it is not accurate to true ninjutsu but this a world of fantasy. Plus I don't think real ninjas can turn invisible on command so anything about comparing the CV ninja to a real one kind of goes out the window.
The Minotaur Wizard 09-13-05, 04:30 PM	Tell you what, strap a broom to your back and walk around your house for an hour. Just walk around, in and out of doors, maybe try to do the dishes. After that, imagine what it would be like if the broom weight 15 pounds. well you see, the thing is, that a real two handed sword that somebody would actually use in a battle back then would only weigh 6 or 7 pounds, maybe 8 like it says in the PHB. Nobody could swing around a 15 pound piece of metal for any length of time and expect to survive in a fight.
allenchan 09-13-05, 04:36 PM	Ninja is only good for one thing: Non-lawful Druids who want Wis to AC and skills. Other then that, be a Rogue, call yourself a Ninja, and have fun.
Doopliss 09-13-05, 05:06 PM	If I was merely swapping out the invisibility ability for a worse sneak attack, I'd agree. Then you have all the acrobatic boosting stuff, ability to strike ghosts, near perfect synergy with monks, etc.
Salla 09-13-05, 05:57 PM	Ninja is only good for one thing: Non-lawful Druids who want Wis to AC and skills. Other then that, be a Rogue, call yourself a Ninja, and have fun. First, Ninjas have no alignment restrictions, so LN Druids can Multiclass with Ninja if they want. :D Second, from my experience, rogues are better in combat, but ninjas are better infiltrators and spies. This makes perfect sense to me.
allenchan 09-13-05, 06:00 PM	First, Ninjas have no alignment restrictions, so LN Druids can Multiclass with Ninja if they want. :D Second, from my experience, rogues are better in combat, but ninjas are better infiltrators and spies. This makes perfect sense to me. My point was that before, only lawful druids could get wis to ac (via monk).
UltimateReality 09-13-05, 06:36 PM	Guess I may as well jump in.... Second, from my experience, rogues are better in combat, but ninjas are better infiltrators and spies. This makes perfect sense to me.This depends entirely on where the rogue puts his ability scores and skill points. I have seen rogues that couldn't disable a trap worth squat, but could talk their way into (or out of) anything. Sneaky rogues, diplo-rogues, skill-pimpin rogues, trap-monkey rogues...all done with one class. Ranged rogues, sneak attack rogues, the list goes on. The rogue is a very versatile class, and you can choose to focus on a lot of things. Don't forget a rogue gets UMD too, so emulating the CA ninja's ki abilities is fairly easy. You want a ninja-like rogue? Keep Dex high, and make Int your secondary stat (governs # of skill points). After that, choose Cha (for UMD and social skills) or Wis (for Listen, Spot, Sense Motive).
Lord Schpungus 09-13-05, 07:26 PM	We're not talking Skill and Feat choices here. We're talking Evasion and Sneak Attack vs. Sudden Strike. Sneak attack has infinitely more combat usefulness than Sudden Strike, because flanking is many times easier than feinting or going invisible round after round.
UltimateReality 09-13-05, 07:33 PM	We're not talking Skill and Feat choices here. We're talking Evasion and Sneak Attack vs. Sudden Strike. Sneak attack has infinitely more combat usefulness than Sudden Strike, because flanking is many times easier than feinting or going invisible round after round. Exactly. A rogue can do what the CA ninja does and more, more easily. A rogue is more versatile, has more options, and is generally better at them than the CA ninja. The CA ninja is specialized -- and it starts off specialized. Lack of versatility generally hinders a PC's survivability/viability. I'd take a rogue over a ninja any day. I can make the flavour fit regardless, and tweak the mechanics more minutely to fit my personal ninja, instead of the cookie cutter WotC says they are. Oh, and I have the option of taking my ninja-rogue in more directions than I would with a CA ninja.
Salla 09-13-05, 08:12 PM	Exactly. A rogue can do what the CA ninja does and more, more easily. A rogue is more versatile, has more options, and is generally better at them than the CA ninja. The CA ninja is specialized -- and it starts off specialized. Lack of versatility generally hinders a PC's survivability/viability. I'd take a rogue over a ninja any day. I can make the flavour fit regardless, and tweak the mechanics more minutely to fit my personal ninja, instead of the cookie cutter WotC says they are. Oh, and I have the option of taking my ninja-rogue in more directions than I would with a CA ninja. On the other hand, since it's specialized, it's better at what it does than the rogue is. That's the payoff. The ninja does his stuff without help; he doesn't have to worry about flubbing (or even spending skill points) on Use Magic Device, if he gets stripped or Disjoined, he can still turn invisible. You don't have a ninja, you have a Rogue With Stuff. Is the ninja as powerful as a rogue? No. It is, however, on its own, better at infiltrating and spying than a rogue. Anybody can strap on Boots of Elvenkind and a Ring of Invisiblity and go all stealthy; the fact that rogues can do so proves nothing. The ninja does it better by himself.
Flushmaster 09-13-05, 08:48 PM	well you see, the thing is, that a real two handed sword that somebody would actually use in a battle back then would only weigh 6 or 7 pounds, maybe 8 like it says in the PHB. Nobody could swing around a 15 pound piece of metal for any length of time and expect to survive in a fight. Not true. The scottish claymore was a sword specifically designed for the purpose of breaking the legs of charging warhorses so as to unseat the rider (and possibly kill or injure the rider in the fall). These were large weapons and would often weigh between 12 and 20 pounds. Wielded in melee by a strong enough person, a claymore is capable of quite literally cleaving a man in half. As far as I know this is at least one of the largest swords actually used in combat, and even then only a small portion of soldiers were strong enough to wield it effectively. Somebody has already mentioned Braveheart; William Wallace's personal sword was a six foot long claymore. William Wallace was also much bigger than Mel Gibson; the real Wallace was seven feet tall and weighed over three hundred pounds. A sword such as that probably couldn't be effectively be wielded by somebody who's training focuses on being quick, nimble, and stealthy rather than being big and strong (which was the main requirement to be a good claymore user). But by the same hand, a true claymore compared to a D&D greatsword would probably be a two handed only exotic weapon with more damage (say 2d8 for a medium one). A lighter, 8 pound two handed sword would be usable by a stealthy character who took specific training in its use (like a proficiency feat). If you want a pick though, I recommend the dire pick from Complete Warrior. Exotic weapon one handed (two handed martial, but you'll need the feat anyways), 1d8, crit x4. The damage is obviously lower than the equivalent bastard sword because of the increased crit multiplier. If you wanted a pure two handed version I'd say 1d10 x4. More damage than a scythe but only one damage type.
UltimateReality 09-13-05, 10:37 PM	On the other hand, since it's specialized, it's better at what it does than the rogue is. That's the payoff.Exactly. Who else can turn invisible at second level without using a scroll, wand, or other item? Not even a wizard. What I've found in 3.5 is a greater tendancy for character options to highly specialize the character. This means the character is really great against, say, dragons, but is actually less than average against anything that's not a dragon. This works if your DM throws only/mostly dragons at you, but in a campaign with a variety of encounters, and non-specialized monsters and NPCs, it's very hard to manage -- especially if all your fellow PCs are specialized too (illusion spells, say, ghosts/incorporeal beings, and...oh...spiked chain fighter). In these cases, it's not that players are unable to do something else at all, just that what they sacrifice to get their specialty is often a lot. The nerfing of Sneak Attack for the ninja is one of the reasons I would never play one. The adding of invisibility and etherealness is one reason I'd consider it. For me, the lost SA opportunities don't make up for the Su-abilities I can eventually get elsewhere with a rogue. A rogue doesn't have to use them to survive and contribute to encounters right away. (Theoretically a ninja doesn't either, but that limited SA hurts a lot and pretty much forces the use of Ghost Step at low levels.) I prefer my characters to be versatile, as that leaves me room to expand in any direction as needed. I prefer my PCs to be versatile as it's easier to pull out a balanced fight that won't either stomp them in one round, or be dead in one. if he gets stripped or Disjoined, he can still turn invisible. You don't have a ninja, you have a Rogue With Stuff.Exactly. An AMF, however, still affects a ninja. Anyone with true seeing or invisibility purge sees them both. And then, which class is more versatile? (We won't even get into the whole poison use debate -- some DMs don't want their PCs to use it and deem it evil, while others think it's cool and okay, etc.) Keeping your SA while flanking is a really, really good bonus for the original rogue. But getting Wis to AC is also good. In some particular situations, a ninja will doubtless outshine a rogue who has no equipment or who is specialized differently. However, I feel with a standard character (including stat gen and wealth), a rogue can easily do most things a ninja can nearly as well as the ninja can. The bonus is that the rogue can also do other things. Is the ninja as powerful as a rogue? No. It is, however, on its own, better at infiltrating and spying than a rogue. Anybody can strap on Boots of Elvenkind and a Ring of Invisiblity and go all stealthy; the fact that rogues can do so proves nothing. The ninja does it better by himself.I think you mean "The ninja does it without items". This is perfectly true, in that case. However, a ninja also has a reduced class skill list, and slightly less skill points. In return they gain Wis to AC -- something to pause and consider, certainly -- and the Ghost Step ability. If you are playing a low-to-no item campaign, then yes, a ninja is going to be better than a rogue. However, if you're playing a more "standard" game, they can be fairly easily duplicated. This is common with D&D in general. Any character is capable of doing nearly anything. How well they do it depends on a number of factors, though. Keeping an eye out for character versatility may be a min-maxing trait or a personal preference, but it is one that has served me well over my years of gaming, with multiple DMs and styles, and multiple character archetypes. I look at the CA ninja and honestly, I see something that needs just a modicum of tweaking to be a PrC. Most of the Complete base classes are similarly specialized and strike me as either good PrCs or good NPC classes. I commend Wizards for trying to change mechanics to suit the flavour of some ideas and inspire the players, but we did just fine for thirty odd years, and many of us can play what's mechanically called a "rogue" as a spy, ninja, con man, or diplomat/ambassador. (This leads into the larger problem I'm finding with newer WotC products: flavour for the mechanics written in stone. I have to un-train players from this and let them know that flavour is always changeable, the mechanics remain the same.) D&D's class-based system has led to countless people thinking that a bard or wizard has to be played a certain way, that a warlock's powers have to come from demons, and that you're not a ninja unless your character sheet says "Ninja" somewhere in the Class section. I've always maintained that the mechanics are determined by the character, not vice versa. You can do a lot on pure flavour alone, and even more based on allocation of skills and feats, items, or even judicious use of multiclassing. Will it cover every possible mechanic? No, because WotC prints out close to half a dozen new ones with each PrC that hits the page. But how fundamentally different are most of those mechanics from something you can do with what's already put out? Not much, by far. A ninja doesn't actually introduce any completely brand new mechanics into the game, just tweaks existing ones in new ways, and lets you access certain mechanics differently than normal. That, to me, screams PrC.
CycloneRanger 09-13-05, 10:59 PM	I'm currently playing a Ninja (second level). I have found the lack of true sneak attack to be rather annoying; but overall, my character is stronger for being a Ninja. I focus primarily on the one-hit-kill aspect; I have a high (14) strength score and use a longspear with power attack (I am hoping to pick up either Cleave or Leap Attack next level). Ideally, I attack first and the fight is over, whether from Power Attack x 2, Sudden Strike, or a poisoned weapon. When the battle does take longer (as battles against multiple foes tend to, especially), I can usually find a way to get sudden strike if I really need it. Options exist - you can use the Ghost Step ability to become invisible (which, I believe, allows you to stay invisible for a full round - granting mulitple invisible attacks at later levels), or just use the bluff skill to feint against your target. Another option (and one I very much like) is to simply escape, whether through running, jumping, or climbing, and strike again later. Also, never forget ranged attacks - sudden strike is just as easy to use at range as any sneak attack. In other words, having sudden strike instead of sneak attack isn't really that much of a handicap; having two fewer skill points per level is more annoying. Also the Ninja suffers from MAD (multiple ability dependency) to a great extent. I was fortunate in that I rolled several moderate-to-high ability scores; two 14s and a 16. A Ninja needs at the very least a good dexterity score and a good wisdom score; Strength helps as well, at least for builds like mine. The greatest asset of a Ninja, however, is his ability to have a reasonably high AC in no armor - allowing use of several prestige classes, such as the Duelist or the Invisible Blade. Pumping Wisdom can generate a fair AC, which, when combined with Bracers of Armor, can give the Ninja an edge overall in AC, and a Will save bonus to boot. Also, does anyone care to comment on the use of a spear by a Ninja? (And not in real life, for anyone who has convinced himself that he is a ninja-expert.) I think it fits very well (I see my character using it to pole-vault over a wall or something in addition to use as a weapon). I seem to recall some sort of scene from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in which a spear is used, and it looked sufficiently ninja-esque. It sure would be difficult trying to sneak around with it at times... at least it is a reasonably thin and light weapon.
Doopliss 09-13-05, 11:48 PM	The spear sounds cool, though you're right: Ninja definetly suffers from MAD. I got really lucky and rolled three 16s and a 14 :D :
Phist 09-14-05, 02:10 AM	Main question: Why do people make such a big deal over the difference between Sudden Strike and Sneak attack? Rogues can flank(rarely end up doing that, the enemies either die too fast or move too much) and do non-lethal damage(I think that defies the point). It's really not that much worse at all. As for the rest of the class, I think it's balanced. It's hard to use, but I like that. I wish it wasn't so firmly bound in oriental settings, if it lost even just the name 'ninja' and the word 'ki' it would fit so much better into so many settings. My Ninja (changeling ninja named Tor) uses a spiked chain. It seems like it doesn't fit at all, but when you think about it, it works very well. As well as doing more assured damage(two dice when one larger one would do), it can trip(so your second attack does sudden strike damage), disarm(limiting the damage the admittedly underdefend ninja gets), allow you to fight at a distance(again, limitting damage) and can be used as a short rope in a pinch. THAT'S a ninja weapon.
Mirage_1 09-14-05, 06:47 AM	Main question: Why do people make such a big deal over the difference between Sudden Strike and Sneak attack? Rogues can flank(rarely end up doing that, the enemies either die too fast or move too much) and do non-lethal damage(I think that defies the point). It's really not that much worse at all. My group has a tendency to really push to get in flanking position and do a good job of it (note - our ninja is great at tumbling into flanking position). As a result, your party tends to get the +2 to hit a lot of the time, but our ninja almost never gets the sudden strike. Overall..I would say the ninja in our group would be getting sneak atttack damage about 5-10 times as much as he does now with the sudden strike
Mirage_1 09-14-05, 06:48 AM	BTW - we do have a custom feat in our campaign to convert 2d6 of sudden strike to 2d6 of sneak attack (can be taken multiple times)
JD 09-14-05, 07:34 AM	Most of my sneak attacks when playing as a rogue were due to flanking. Plenty of tumlbing helped with that. However, when flanking was difficult or impossible, we had the sorceror feint to distract certain opponents. He even carried around a bag of bullets that he could skitter across the floor to distract people. :D This is a reasonably effective tactic that a party with a ninja should consider.
Doopliss 09-14-05, 08:23 AM	You know, Ninja really isn't so solidly set in flavour as you'd think. The ki pool in particlular kept making me think "monk." In fact I'm probably going to end up multiclassing to monk once I reach 20 with ninja. Actually, our game is non oriental. :P I just use it as a specially trained monk. And yes, we're playing in a low-wealth game. :) With 8 skill points a level thanks to int, I rarely find myself wanting for more skills, and due to a 16 on strength, I can hold my own with the greatsword, especially where ghost step is concerned. By abusing any leftovers if there's a villian, I can usually deal 4d4 points of damage for the first two or three rounds. Admittedly most of my skill points go into keeping the steath abilities high up, but I don't really need much else in the way of skills.
Wafflestomper13 09-14-05, 01:37 PM	The sudden strikes problem can be quickly fixed simply by becoming a pixie. No more, oh darn I have to use Ki pool to use a Sudden strike. Pixies are the deadliest Ninja Assassins.
Flushmaster 09-14-05, 01:54 PM	Pixie ninjas...that is at the same time hilarious, cool, and frightening. I'm gonna have to use them in a game some time...
Wafflestomper13 09-15-05, 09:20 AM	I already have a pixie ninja assassin in my campaign. At first I thought it would just be funny, but then I looked at the pixie's stats... So now the pixie is the leader of the Assassin guild, anything else just doesn't make sense!
Cadfan 09-15-05, 12:09 PM	Its worth noting: rogues who focus on ranged attacks don't use the flanking aspect of sneak attack very much. Might as well be a ninja.
Phist 09-15-05, 11:59 PM	Really? I almost never flank. My sudden strikes are usually from sources like when I hang from ceilings and clock a guard in the back of the head with my chain as he passes below me. But each to his own I guess...
JaedenKaal 09-16-05, 02:19 AM	Ghost step + whirlwind attack + sudden strike Mmmm....
Doopliss 09-16-05, 08:48 AM	Mmmm.... Really, it's nothing a sneak attack can't do though... :(
JaedenKaal 09-16-05, 03:01 PM	But you have to be flanking everyone, or somehow be hiding (ie have concealment or cover againt everyone) you're using whirlwind attack against. With ghost step, you're invisible, so you can automatically sudden strike them with no added difficulty
Doopliss 09-16-05, 03:02 PM	Actually, I meant the use magic device skil rogues have. Though Ninjas do get it done alot simpler :D
yellowdingo 09-17-05, 12:31 AM	If you need a balanced Ninja NPC, 3rd level Wizard (black clothing, Ordinary Bamboo blowgun (used as prop when casting sleep or web...) and throwingstars (enhanced for autohit with Magic Missile) Backed by 2-4 Goblin "Ninja Warriors" with Katana. The First thing the PC's see is a Ninja with magic blowgun and magic throwing stars...backed up by four Ninja in training. It doesnt matter that a Fighter with a rusty Sickle could take these guys. There is enough intimidation factor here to make a paladin wet themselves.