Is it all right not to Optimize? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is it all right not to Optimize? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ian0311
08-27-07, 04:07 PM Two of my fellows are optimizers...the other is a regular player, who has his strong characters and his weak characters, but usually doesn't sacrifice too much for flavor or sacrifice creativity to make them uber strong.

I'm unsure of my stance on the subject, personally. I've optimized (and had fun) and played non-optimized characters (and still had fun). The DM never makes it too hard or too easy, but it makes me wonder...

Is it all right to not optimize in a group like this?
OneWinged4ngel
08-27-07, 04:22 PM Is it all right to not optimize in a group like this?

Sure. The only reason it wouldn't be is if you yourself have a problem with not being as powerful as some of the other players.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-27-07, 04:22 PM As long as you don't require DM fiat to survive and succeed, and you're not a burden on your fellow party members, being mediocre is fine. But, you know, match background/outlook/description to it, don't be some poser pretending to be awesome when you're not. ;)
OneWinged4ngel
08-27-07, 04:24 PM As long as you don't require DM fiat to survive and succeed, and you're not a burden on your fellow party members, being mediocre is fine. But, you know, match background/outlook/description to it, don't be some poser pretending to be awesome when you're not. ;)

Agreed.
_zx75
08-27-07, 04:28 PM It's fine if everyone is having fun, that's the main point.

What you may find however, is if the power level difference is too great between their optimized characters and your unoptimized character that your character will be ineffective compared to theirs. In addition if your character is too weak relative to theirs the DM might feel the need to throw more powerful enemies at the party to challenge your other members, but which may be far too powerful for you and result in your character's death.

The same arguments apply to level gaps between players, except in your case you will have the power gap that a level gap would create... without the difference in levels (and thus without the ability to 'catch up').

So as I said before, if it's fun then go for it.

What I generally advise my players though is to try to make characters that are relatively close in power level. I get the optimizers of my group to help out the players who aren't as good with mechanics, and to suggest alternative options that may result in a stronger character. At the same time I suggest to my optimizers that this may be an opportunity for them to try an unusual or new role, one that may be sub-optimal. And then I challenge them to take that sub-optimal role and succeed with it, and often it results in a party that is pretty well balanced and enjoyable.
Mælstrøm
08-27-07, 08:07 PM Good question. I have to counter with a question, because many people mistake "optimizing characters" with "optimizing characters for combat"!

If you want to play a noncom (a character that is not heavy on combat but rather on social or sneaky stuff or magic) and the others want to play combat-heavy characteres (this is merely an example, meaning: if you want to fill a niche in the group that no one else wants to fill), then the question doesn't even arise, because the others won't enter your field of expertise, so whether you optimize or not, you will always be able to support the group with your special abilities. You can add your combat prowess, however small it may be, to the fray carefully if need be and otherwise support with the things you are good at.

If you want to play a combative character among others, then, as zx has suggested, there might be a difference that might either be disadvantageous to the group or just not fun for you, depending on the gap.

Finally, the most important thing is the DM and how he/she sees it. I have played in a group with a powergaming DM (meaning a guy who liked powergaming as a player and railroading/exaggerating challenges as a DM), and I have to say it is usually better to make your character as strong as possible in that case. If your DM is laid back and wants roleplaying and social things and can dig you making a "suboptimal" character, then by all means go for it. You might want to talk to your DM about it and hear what he has to say.

If he says things like: "Dude, I don't know if that's such a good idea, you might fall behind the others..." and stuff like that, you know where he's coming from ;)

Personally, I like to play non-min-maxed characters, so I agree that there is absolutely no problem with it. In many cases, I have found that it makes for a more 3-dimensional character if I imagine him first and assign ability scores according to my vision, and AFTER THAT decide what class he'll be and what skills he wants.

Hope that helps.
Pyro_Azer
08-27-07, 09:03 PM What do you mean by optimize in this case?

Most of the time i would say it is perfectly ok not to optimize but if your definition of not optimizing is to gimp your charecters severely which may cause some problems. If your charecter is a little weaker than the rest of the group that's perfectly fine. However, if you are way behind the rest of your group it may become unfun as either the DM will be forced to design encounters to your power level and bore the other players or you will be dead, a lot. Other than that there is no problem with not optimizing.
RadicalTaoist
08-28-07, 01:28 AM Ask their assistance. If they're good cooperative players, they may gladly optimize your character for you.
Ian0311
08-28-07, 06:58 AM What do you mean by optimize in this case?

Most of the time i would say it is perfectly ok not to optimize but if your definition of not optimizing is to gimp your charecters severely which may cause some problems. If your charecter is a little weaker than the rest of the group that's perfectly fine. However, if you are way behind the rest of your group it may become unfun as either the DM will be forced to design encounters to your power level and bore the other players or you will be dead, a lot. Other than that there is no problem with not optimizing.

I'm not gimping my characters. I'm just not making a character who's optimized. That doesn't mean he's going to be ineffective as a character; that's not fun, except in special circumstances...
Shadowhowler
08-28-07, 10:42 AM I agree with Shaggy on this...

Make your character however you want, it's ALWAYS fine not to optimise. However, if your character is Joe Normal or whatever you make him out to be... don't set up a background or a persona based on him being a big time bad ass... as your characters abilities will not back it up.
8for47
08-28-07, 07:56 PM It's perfectly ok to not optimise just as it is perfectly ok to optimise.

However if you decide to make a non-optimised character then it isn't ok to complain about being overshadowed by a character that is optimised, just like if you make an optimised character it isn't ok to complain about how your carrying the team.
runestar
08-28-07, 10:12 PM You can't roleplay if you are dead.

Bear that in mind as you decide how far you wish not to optimize.;)
Divokej
08-28-07, 11:51 PM Yes. (Very deep, I know)
Vaelan
08-29-07, 03:18 AM It is okay not to optimize for power, but I find it exceedingly difficult to say that one shouldn't optimize for concept.

So I suppose I would have to say no to not optimizing.
12Shark
08-29-07, 04:36 AM It's probably better not to go into it saying 'I won't optimise', or you may overshoot the mark and end up with an ineffective character.

Rather, why not make a short list of the 'key traits' you must have for the character concept, and build it around those?

For example, if you want a necromancer who fights in melee with a scythe, and has a great singing voice, write those down as 'key traits' and build your character to function as Dark Rathest, the Singing Necromancer! (Which would be highly amusing, to say the least. Leadership and a horde of cultists with Perform(Musical) for extra fun!)

Or a large greataxe wielding lumberjack-bard who cuts down trees, eats his lunch and presses wildflowers.

Indeed, it arguably takes a better optimiser to build completely random, non synergistic characters who survive all the same and make for more than an angry footnote in some complaint thread about people who refuse to optimise.

When an off-the-wall mishmash character is effective in combat and makes it through to the end, they usually become memorable, not just one of many fun-on-paper concepts who just die because of lack of optimisation.
RealSorceror
08-29-07, 09:29 PM Of course its all right to not optimize. I myself always powergame becuase I enjoy the mental exercise, not because I intend to actually use it. Its always nice to have a trump card, just in case, but more often than not, just playing smart and being a good roleplayer will get you through most encounters.
LoneStranger
08-30-07, 01:26 AM Character concept is always preferable to a bunch of stats on a page, even if it means you're not cracked out at all.

Of course it's fine to not optimize.
CCS
08-30-07, 01:59 AM Two of my fellows are optimizers...the other is a regular player, who has his strong characters and his weak characters, but usually doesn't sacrifice too much for flavor or sacrifice creativity to make them uber strong.

I'm unsure of my stance on the subject, personally. I've optimized (and had fun) and played non-optimized characters (and still had fun). The DM never makes it too hard or too easy, but it makes me wonder...

Is it all right to not optimize in a group like this?

Absolutely.

Within whatever limits your game allows for, you should always be playing the type of character you enjoy. Nothing demands that you make use of ALL potential options you know.

Sometimes though you'll find yourself in a game that's imbalanced. Alot of the time this'll take the form of way too much emphasis on combat. But there's also a good many examples where things are too heavy on the pure RP side.
If this happens, know that you didn't neccecarrily build the wrong type of character.
In either case, the answers almost always discussing what type of balance the group wants. This is best done prior to begining, but it's also adjustable during play.
Drag0nUL
08-30-07, 08:22 AM I think you should try to talk with your fellow players and DM about what sort of game it is going to be.
If it is going to be a story-centered game, with moderately challenging fights you are ok not to optimize, but if it is going to be a combat-centered game, where every fight is a challenge to survive, then the stronger the better.

Optimizing and not optimizing are not good or bad on their own. They are good or bad in relation with he rest of your group (if you are stealing the spotlight or dragging them back).
Ecalsneerg
08-30-07, 01:25 PM It's probably better not to go into it saying 'I won't optimise', or you may overshoot the mark and end up with an ineffective character.

Rather, why not make a short list of the 'key traits' you must have for the character concept, and build it around those?

For example, if you want a necromancer who fights in melee with a scythe, and has a great singing voice, write those down as 'key traits' and build your character to function as Dark Rathest, the Singing Necromancer! (Which would be highly amusing, to say the least. Leadership and a horde of cultists with Perform(Musical) for extra fun!)

Or a large greataxe wielding lumberjack-bard who cuts down trees, eats his lunch and presses wildflowers.

Indeed, it arguably takes a better optimiser to build completely random, non synergistic characters who survive all the same and make for more than an angry footnote in some complaint thread about people who refuse to optimise.

When an off-the-wall mishmash character is effective in combat and makes it through to the end, they usually become memorable, not just one of many fun-on-paper concepts who just die because of lack of optimisation.
I think this post deserves a cookie. I need to teach the noobs in my group this when they generate new characters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ian0311 08-27-07, 04:07 PM	Two of my fellows are optimizers...the other is a regular player, who has his strong characters and his weak characters, but usually doesn't sacrifice too much for flavor or sacrifice creativity to make them uber strong. I'm unsure of my stance on the subject, personally. I've optimized (and had fun) and played non-optimized characters (and still had fun). The DM never makes it too hard or too easy, but it makes me wonder... Is it all right to not optimize in a group like this?
OneWinged4ngel 08-27-07, 04:22 PM	Is it all right to not optimize in a group like this? Sure. The only reason it wouldn't be is if you yourself have a problem with not being as powerful as some of the other players.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-27-07, 04:22 PM	As long as you don't require DM fiat to survive and succeed, and you're not a burden on your fellow party members, being mediocre is fine. But, you know, match background/outlook/description to it, don't be some poser pretending to be awesome when you're not. ;)
OneWinged4ngel 08-27-07, 04:24 PM	As long as you don't require DM fiat to survive and succeed, and you're not a burden on your fellow party members, being mediocre is fine. But, you know, match background/outlook/description to it, don't be some poser pretending to be awesome when you're not. ;) Agreed.
_zx75 08-27-07, 04:28 PM	It's fine if everyone is having fun, that's the main point. What you may find however, is if the power level difference is too great between their optimized characters and your unoptimized character that your character will be ineffective compared to theirs. In addition if your character is too weak relative to theirs the DM might feel the need to throw more powerful enemies at the party to challenge your other members, but which may be far too powerful for you and result in your character's death. The same arguments apply to level gaps between players, except in your case you will have the power gap that a level gap would create... without the difference in levels (and thus without the ability to 'catch up'). So as I said before, if it's fun then go for it. What I generally advise my players though is to try to make characters that are relatively close in power level. I get the optimizers of my group to help out the players who aren't as good with mechanics, and to suggest alternative options that may result in a stronger character. At the same time I suggest to my optimizers that this may be an opportunity for them to try an unusual or new role, one that may be sub-optimal. And then I challenge them to take that sub-optimal role and succeed with it, and often it results in a party that is pretty well balanced and enjoyable.
Mælstrøm 08-27-07, 08:07 PM	Good question. I have to counter with a question, because many people mistake "optimizing characters" with "optimizing characters for combat"! If you want to play a noncom (a character that is not heavy on combat but rather on social or sneaky stuff or magic) and the others want to play combat-heavy characteres (this is merely an example, meaning: if you want to fill a niche in the group that no one else wants to fill), then the question doesn't even arise, because the others won't enter your field of expertise, so whether you optimize or not, you will always be able to support the group with your special abilities. You can add your combat prowess, however small it may be, to the fray carefully if need be and otherwise support with the things you are good at. If you want to play a combative character among others, then, as zx has suggested, there might be a difference that might either be disadvantageous to the group or just not fun for you, depending on the gap. Finally, the most important thing is the DM and how he/she sees it. I have played in a group with a powergaming DM (meaning a guy who liked powergaming as a player and railroading/exaggerating challenges as a DM), and I have to say it is usually better to make your character as strong as possible in that case. If your DM is laid back and wants roleplaying and social things and can dig you making a "suboptimal" character, then by all means go for it. You might want to talk to your DM about it and hear what he has to say. If he says things like: "Dude, I don't know if that's such a good idea, you might fall behind the others..." and stuff like that, you know where he's coming from ;) Personally, I like to play non-min-maxed characters, so I agree that there is absolutely no problem with it. In many cases, I have found that it makes for a more 3-dimensional character if I imagine him first and assign ability scores according to my vision, and AFTER THAT decide what class he'll be and what skills he wants. Hope that helps.
Pyro_Azer 08-27-07, 09:03 PM	What do you mean by optimize in this case? Most of the time i would say it is perfectly ok not to optimize but if your definition of not optimizing is to gimp your charecters severely which may cause some problems. If your charecter is a little weaker than the rest of the group that's perfectly fine. However, if you are way behind the rest of your group it may become unfun as either the DM will be forced to design encounters to your power level and bore the other players or you will be dead, a lot. Other than that there is no problem with not optimizing.
RadicalTaoist 08-28-07, 01:28 AM	Ask their assistance. If they're good cooperative players, they may gladly optimize your character for you.
Ian0311 08-28-07, 06:58 AM	What do you mean by optimize in this case? Most of the time i would say it is perfectly ok not to optimize but if your definition of not optimizing is to gimp your charecters severely which may cause some problems. If your charecter is a little weaker than the rest of the group that's perfectly fine. However, if you are way behind the rest of your group it may become unfun as either the DM will be forced to design encounters to your power level and bore the other players or you will be dead, a lot. Other than that there is no problem with not optimizing. I'm not gimping my characters. I'm just not making a character who's optimized. That doesn't mean he's going to be ineffective as a character; that's not fun, except in special circumstances...
Shadowhowler 08-28-07, 10:42 AM	I agree with Shaggy on this... Make your character however you want, it's ALWAYS fine not to optimise. However, if your character is Joe Normal or whatever you make him out to be... don't set up a background or a persona based on him being a big time bad ass... as your characters abilities will not back it up.
8for47 08-28-07, 07:56 PM	It's perfectly ok to not optimise just as it is perfectly ok to optimise. However if you decide to make a non-optimised character then it isn't ok to complain about being overshadowed by a character that is optimised, just like if you make an optimised character it isn't ok to complain about how your carrying the team.
runestar 08-28-07, 10:12 PM	You can't roleplay if you are dead. Bear that in mind as you decide how far you wish not to optimize.;)
Divokej 08-28-07, 11:51 PM	Yes. (Very deep, I know)
Vaelan 08-29-07, 03:18 AM	It is okay not to optimize for power, but I find it exceedingly difficult to say that one shouldn't optimize for concept. So I suppose I would have to say no to not optimizing.
12Shark 08-29-07, 04:36 AM	It's probably better not to go into it saying 'I won't optimise', or you may overshoot the mark and end up with an ineffective character. Rather, why not make a short list of the 'key traits' you must have for the character concept, and build it around those? For example, if you want a necromancer who fights in melee with a scythe, and has a great singing voice, write those down as 'key traits' and build your character to function as Dark Rathest, the Singing Necromancer! (Which would be highly amusing, to say the least. Leadership and a horde of cultists with Perform(Musical) for extra fun!) Or a large greataxe wielding lumberjack-bard who cuts down trees, eats his lunch and presses wildflowers. Indeed, it arguably takes a better optimiser to build completely random, non synergistic characters who survive all the same and make for more than an angry footnote in some complaint thread about people who refuse to optimise. When an off-the-wall mishmash character is effective in combat and makes it through to the end, they usually become memorable, not just one of many fun-on-paper concepts who just die because of lack of optimisation.
RealSorceror 08-29-07, 09:29 PM	Of course its all right to not optimize. I myself always powergame becuase I enjoy the mental exercise, not because I intend to actually use it. Its always nice to have a trump card, just in case, but more often than not, just playing smart and being a good roleplayer will get you through most encounters.
LoneStranger 08-30-07, 01:26 AM	Character concept is always preferable to a bunch of stats on a page, even if it means you're not cracked out at all. Of course it's fine to not optimize.
CCS 08-30-07, 01:59 AM	Two of my fellows are optimizers...the other is a regular player, who has his strong characters and his weak characters, but usually doesn't sacrifice too much for flavor or sacrifice creativity to make them uber strong. I'm unsure of my stance on the subject, personally. I've optimized (and had fun) and played non-optimized characters (and still had fun). The DM never makes it too hard or too easy, but it makes me wonder... Is it all right to not optimize in a group like this? Absolutely. Within whatever limits your game allows for, you should always be playing the type of character you enjoy. Nothing demands that you make use of ALL potential options you know. Sometimes though you'll find yourself in a game that's imbalanced. Alot of the time this'll take the form of way too much emphasis on combat. But there's also a good many examples where things are too heavy on the pure RP side. If this happens, know that you didn't neccecarrily build the wrong type of character. In either case, the answers almost always discussing what type of balance the group wants. This is best done prior to begining, but it's also adjustable during play.
Drag0nUL 08-30-07, 08:22 AM	I think you should try to talk with your fellow players and DM about what sort of game it is going to be. If it is going to be a story-centered game, with moderately challenging fights you are ok not to optimize, but if it is going to be a combat-centered game, where every fight is a challenge to survive, then the stronger the better. Optimizing and not optimizing are not good or bad on their own. They are good or bad in relation with he rest of your group (if you are stealing the spotlight or dragging them back).
Ecalsneerg 08-30-07, 01:25 PM	It's probably better not to go into it saying 'I won't optimise', or you may overshoot the mark and end up with an ineffective character. Rather, why not make a short list of the 'key traits' you must have for the character concept, and build it around those? For example, if you want a necromancer who fights in melee with a scythe, and has a great singing voice, write those down as 'key traits' and build your character to function as Dark Rathest, the Singing Necromancer! (Which would be highly amusing, to say the least. Leadership and a horde of cultists with Perform(Musical) for extra fun!) Or a large greataxe wielding lumberjack-bard who cuts down trees, eats his lunch and presses wildflowers. Indeed, it arguably takes a better optimiser to build completely random, non synergistic characters who survive all the same and make for more than an angry footnote in some complaint thread about people who refuse to optimise. When an off-the-wall mishmash character is effective in combat and makes it through to the end, they usually become memorable, not just one of many fun-on-paper concepts who just die because of lack of optimisation. I think this post deserves a cookie. I need to teach the noobs in my group this when they generate new characters.