Post/Author/DateTime	Post
daspawnofsatan 01-03-06, 01:36 PM	Why does it seem that DMs always try to make their players weaker than everything else? Is it a battle between DM and PCs? Do all DMs like to Almost kill their players with every encounter??? Example. A group of 4 adventurers (average lvl 5) grouped with a wyrmling silver dragon are attacking a young red dragon. Seems like an interesting encounter right? Here's how it went down... =============== All players and the silver dragon are waiting outside the room, readying the attack. The necromancer sends in some summoned undead and the druid sends in some summoned natures allies. The dragon toasts them with it's breath weapon. The group laughs at how quickly they all die, and then another wave of creatures is sent in. Similar results, but this time one of the undead creatures survives the firey blast. It's at this point that we decide to charge the red dragon, leaving the silver dragon outside so he isn't immidiately wasted by the red dragons 1 remaining daily fire blast. We charge the room immidiately after the dragon attacks. The DM states that we all enter the room at the same time, and that the dragon blasts us with his breath weapon. I argue that he would have to wait until his turn, since he just attacked, and isn't expecting a group of adventurers to come charging in. The DM declares that the dragon would see the tactical advantage of blasting us all as we run into the room... So do dragons get a breath weapon attack as a free action when ever it's tactically useful? What book is that printed in? I want to see that rule. So to get back at him, I (the cleric) used animate dead to bring the dragon's skeleton under my power once the red dragon was finally dead. Now I have a red dragon, who is immune to fire, has +15 to his claw attacks, and since he's undead, he's immune to cold damage, and any mind affecting magics. He got a bit upset when it SMASHED the next group of monsters almost single handedly... ==================== Now I know that DM's have final say as to what happens, but why is it that when a team of players comes up with a great strategy for killing something quickly, it seems to insult the DM? Maybe it's just my DM, but it keeps happening to me no matter who I play with. Is this common for anyone else? D&D can be really fun, but not if you have to fight against the monsters and the DM at the same time. :rolleyes: :mad:
tsuyoshikentsu 01-03-06, 01:57 PM	They don't, and no, respectively. If your DM's playing that way, he needs to be shot with a hammergun.
TheChilliGod 01-03-06, 02:22 PM	I would say the DM simply said to himself "The red dragon has readied an action to breathe on any who enter the room," during the dragon's own turn. That would have explained a little bit into why it breathed on you during your turn, since readied actions can do that. See the PHB page 160 for rules on readying actions. Also, dragons can breathe every 1d4 rounds, there isn't a daily limit for breathing. That being said, You may have attacked exactly the round after the dragon breathed on the undead, in which case the DM is trying to screw you over, (it takes a standard action to ready an action, and another standard action to breathe in itself, and you can't have two standard actions in a round.) by making a ruling on the spot that he may or may not have thought was perfectly fair. Either way, you are 'feeding the fire,' so to speak, by getting back at the DM by casting animate dead, which is an evil spell for a reason. I hope your cleric isn't good, and has an onyx worth 325gp. It also sounded as though you were taking sadistic pleasure in seeing your DM crushed to pieces by his dragon skeleton. If this ever happened to me, I would probably break down and quit DM'ing altogether, because of all the mean things the players try to do against you when you're just trying to make a challenging and fun story for the whole party. Whether or not the DM is trying to annihilate you, I'm sure you are also trying to annihilate the DM, and unless you and the DM agree to stop this madness, the downward spiral spirals downward.
Gedrin 01-03-06, 02:23 PM	So do dragons get a breath weapon attack when ever it's tactically useful? What book is that printed in? I want to see that rule. This rule is actually printed in the MMI. It's listed as the INT score, but yes, it actually means the dragon would use it's breath weapon to maximum tactical advantage. Basicly, you sent in a wave of summoned creatures, and they got toasted. You did it again, and they got toasted. Then you ran in yourselves, and...here's the kicker...got toasted. I'm not sure about the rules of the matter, but doing the same thing three times in a row and getting the same result seems sensable. So to get back at him... This might explain the competative nature of your relationship with the DM. used animate dead to bring the dragon's skeleton under my power once the red dragon was finally dead. Now I have a red dragon, who is immune to fire, has +15 to his claw attacks, and since he's undead, he's immune to cold damage, and any mind affecting magics. He got a bit upset when it SMASHED the next group of monsters almost single handedly... He probably either didn't know you could do that, or didn't expect you to have a black onyx on hand capable of animating a 13HD creature...which I assume was listed on your character sheet since it's a pretty valuable component. Still, if I could get a 13HD undead creature to do my fighting for me, and wasn't averse to creating massive undead creatures, I'd do the same thing. D&D can be really fun, but not if you have to fight against the monsters and the DM at the same time. While you may be fighting the DM, the fact that you survived the adventure tells me that the DM wasn't actually fighting you. If the DM wanted to "fight" in character there'd be no point in struggling against the rain of rust monsters, disenchanters and ninja kobolds. It looks like you got upset at a call the DM made and then purposefully went out to smash the adventure. While you might not find it to be a good call, it is his call. I assume that you lived through the fight with the dragon, completed your mission, and got lots of dragon treasure. You seem to totally ignore all of that, and have declared that the DM was out to get you. I can't tell you if it's DM against Player, but it is Player against DM.
Ogmug 01-03-06, 03:03 PM	Why does it seem that DMs always try to make their players weaker than everything else? Is it a battle between DM and PCs? Do all DMs like to Almost kill their players with every encounter??? Example. A group of 4 adventurers (average lvl 5) grouped with a wyrmling silver dragon are attacking a young red dragon. Seems like an interesting encounter right? Here's how it went down... =============== All players and the silver dragon are waiting outside the room, readying the attack. The necromancer sends in some summoned undead and the druid sends in some summoned natures allies. The dragon toasts them with it's breath weapon. The group laughs at how quickly they all die, and then another wave of creatures is sent in. Similar results, but this time one of the undead creatures survives the firey blast. It's at this point that we decide to charge the red dragon, leaving the silver dragon outside so he isn't immidiately wasted by the red dragons 1 remaining daily fire blast. We charge the room immidiately after the dragon attacks. The DM states that we all enter the room at the same time, and that the dragon blasts us with his breath weapon. I argue that he would have to wait until his turn, since he just attacked, and isn't expecting a group of adventurers to come charging in. The DM declares that the dragon would see the tactical advantage of blasting us all as we run into the room... So do dragons get a breath weapon attack as a free action when ever it's tactically useful? What book is that printed in? I want to see that rule. So to get back at him, I (the cleric) used animate dead to bring the dragon's skeleton under my power once the red dragon was finally dead. Now I have a red dragon, who is immune to fire, has +15 to his claw attacks, and since he's undead, he's immune to cold damage, and any mind affecting magics. He got a bit upset when it SMASHED the next group of monsters almost single handedly... ==================== Now I know that DM's have final say as to what happens, but why is it that when a team of players comes up with a great strategy for killing something quickly, it seems to insult the DM? Maybe it's just my DM, but it keeps happening to me no matter who I play with. Is this common for anyone else? D&D can be really fun, but not if you have to fight against the monsters and the DM at the same time. :rolleyes: :mad: Couple of things: 1. Animate dead: If you chose to animate dead on the dragon it would fail, unless you were level 7 or under the influence of a desecrate spell. Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit) 2. The skeletal dragon would acquire the following: Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard). Meaning his base attack would be +6, not +15 There is some debate about becoming a mindless undead skeleton and being able to retain the immunity to fire. However undead do not gain immunity to cold (not listed in the undead type). It is immune to anything that requires a fortitude save, unless it also affects objects, so maybe this is what you mean. As to the rest, it should not be about "dm vs player" but rather about a DM presenting an appropriate challenge. A Young Red Dragon may breath once every 1d4 rounds, so once it breaths, a d4 is rolled. If it is a one it takes 1 round to recharge. Some read this as every round, as in breath, roll a one, and breath again. From the way I read the write-up, it seems the following happens (simplified, please feel free to correct) round 1: Players send in "allies" round 1b: dragon toasts allies round 2: players send in allies round 2b: dragon toasts allies round 3: players charge round 3b: dragon toasts players. Now, if the dragon was within range, and there was no obstruction (ie, the door is open and the ground is clear), the players should have each gotten 1 melee attack on the dragon at +2 for a charge, IF they had a straight, unobstructed path to a clear portion of the dragon. IE: No turning, no running around, etc. If the "charge" was simply to enter the room, and the dragon was far enough away that you could not reach it and attack, then your turn ends with you entering the room, and the dragon's turn began. Assuming the dm rolled a 1 again on the d4, then he very well could have played turn the adventurers into smores. It all depends on position. If dragon was close enough to reach in a single move action, you get an attack before the breath weapon. If dragon was outside of movement range, you only get a double move, not attack, UNLESS it was a charge and only if it was a straight line to the dragon it was unobstructed by anything that would slow down or hamper movement And why wouldn't a dragon expect people to come in? after all, the only thing that came through the door before was undead and animals. Any creature with an Intelligence of 12 should be able to discern that animals and undead don't normally travel in packs, much less attack a dragon, so they must be controlled by something. Why wouldn't the "something" eventually come in to try to claim the spoils?
daspawnofsatan 01-03-06, 03:12 PM	Apparently I wasn't quite clear about some things... This rule is actually printed in the MMI. It's listed as the INT score, but yes, it actually means the dragon would use it's breath weapon to maximum tactical advantage. Basicly, you sent in a wave of summoned creatures, and they got toasted. You did it again, and they got toasted. Then you ran in yourselves, and...here's the kicker...got toasted. I'm not sure about the rules of the matter, but doing the same thing three times in a row and getting the same result seems sensable. I wasn't arguing that the dragon shouldn't have been able to blast us, I was saying that he shouldn't have gotten a breath attack as a free action after taking a full turn making an attack. And I didn't raise the creature to get back at him, i mis spoke. My Chaotic Neutral cleric was about to raise the draconic skeleton after we killed it, and he said I coundn't do it because the spell "only worked on humanoid creatures". I was a bit shocked that he was telling me I coundn't use my spell, so I looked up the spell description. It DID infact allow for a dragon to be raised. So when I showed him the spell description, he said the dragon was 10 hd, and that was too powerfull for me to raise. I kept reading the description and it stated that I could raise and control 10 hd per casting, to a total of 20 hd total. He got really quiet and then said "Fine". I thought that was a bit silly, but when I noticed him getting upset over the dragon killing some creatures later, i was amused at the childish display. That is all. He probably either didn't know you could do that, or didn't expect you to have a black onyx on hand capable of animating a 13HD creature...which I assume was listed on your character sheet since it's a pretty valuable component. I also neglected to mention that as per our house rules, material components are not needed for spells. And yes, I am glad we survived the adventure. I am not glad, however, that every time we survive an encounter our DM seems bothered by our increasing strength. THAT was my intended rant. Sorry for the confusion.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-03-06, 03:14 PM	*snip*However undead do not gain immunity to cold (not listed in the undead type). It is immune to anything that requires a fortitude save, unless it also affects objects, so maybe this is what you mean.*snip* Immunity to Cold (Ex): Skeletons are not affected by cold. It doesn't go for all undead, but it does go for that particular sort.
daspawnofsatan 01-03-06, 03:24 PM	[sblock=Original Poster's quote] And why wouldn't a dragon expect people to come in? after all, the only thing that came through the door before was undead and animals. Any creature with an Intelligence of 12 should be able to discern that animals and undead don't normally travel in packs, much less attack a dragon, so they must be controlled by something. Why wouldn't the "something" eventually come in to try to claim the spoils? More specifications... The dragon's breath weapon "stopped" our charge as soon as we entered the door. We weren't able to run our full charge distance, otherwise no 2 people would have been blasted. Our plan was to run in and spread out. But instead we ran 5 feet and got blasted. Hence me calling it a free action. And No, the dm never rolled a d4, he apparently mentally rolled 1's every time.
daspawnofsatan 01-03-06, 03:32 PM	[sblock=Original Poster's quote] 1. Animate dead: If you chose to animate dead on the dragon it would fail, unless you were level 7 or under the influence of a desecrate spell. I double checked. I was strong enough to raise the dragon. I read the description once he said that I couldn't. 2. The skeletal dragon would acquire the following: Meaning his base attack would be +6, not +15 I meant his total attack bonus. The dm told me his stats from the ones he had worked up. The 15 is strength and base attack combined.
Feor 01-03-06, 03:33 PM	First issue: The DM broke that encounter to kill you if you charged in immediatly behind the undead/beasts, MM specifically says that dragons have to wait 1d4 rounds between uses of their breath weapons. If you hesitated, maybe took a few round worth of time to steel yourselves before the charge, then what happened makes sense. After 2 waves of enemies the first thing I'd do once I could would be to ready a breath weapon against anything else that came through the door. (should have sent a third wave of undead & beasts to finish off it's breath weapon uses THEN charged) Second issue: DM vs. Players... yes and no. The DM isn't out to kill you outright, but if he simply allows you to win every encounter without a challenge, you'll get bored. The best DMs will present you with something that will give you a serious challenge, but be beatable, through regular means, and then enjoy it along with you if you come up with something especially creative for defeating the situation. Not-so-good DMs will set up a similar situation, but then get upset if you figure out a creative way to beat it easily. Note: That doesn't apply to player stupidity. If you kill someone in a city, and the guard throws you in jail, the DM is under no obligation to arrange a "survivable" means of getting you out. If you can think of a way to get out, good for you. Otherwise, start thinking of a new character concept.
Gedrin 01-03-06, 03:44 PM	I also neglected to mention that as per our house rules, material components are not needed for spells. So...your DM let's you Animate 13HD undead for free and without any special preperation, and you think he's out to get you. Seriously...think about that for a minute.
daspawnofsatan 01-03-06, 03:54 PM	So...your DM let's you Animate 13HD undead for free and without any special preperation, and you think he's out to get you. Seriously...think about that for a minute. Not out to get me. I don't believe I said that. I did say that he seems upset every time we beat his monsters with intelligent tactical planning. (like waiting to rush in until our minions had provoked the breath weapon)
Rekgar 01-03-06, 03:58 PM	Now I know that DM's have final say as to what happens, but why is it that when a team of players comes up with a great strategy for killing something quickly, it seems to insult the DM? Maybe it's just my DM, but it keeps happening to me no matter who I play with. Is this common for anyone else? This description is seriously skewed from a player only perspective. Further, it is accompanied by a less then favorable description of what "great strategy" means. I feel sorry for the DM and I have some advice - sometimes you cannot and are not suposed to physically defeat all foes presented to you. It is fun to do so, and to find ways of doing so, but if you're sacrificing group cohesion in the process you need to change your game. If you're always having the same problem; maybe everything else isn't the problem.
Ogmug 01-03-06, 04:02 PM	Apparently I wasn't quite clear about some things... I wasn't arguing that the dragon shouldn't have been able to blast us, I was saying that he shouldn't have gotten a breath attack as a free action after taking a full turn making an attack. A dragon's breath isn't a full attack though, is it? It is a special ability "Using a breath weapon is a standard action". Standard actions can be "readied". Full attacks cannot. And I didn't raise the creature to get back at him, i mis spoke. My Chaotic Neutral cleric was about to raise the draconic skeleton after we killed it, and he said I coundn't do it because the spell "only worked on humanoid creatures". I was a bit shocked that he was telling me I coundn't use my spell, so I looked up the spell description. It DID infact allow for a dragon to be raised. So when I showed him the spell description, he said the dragon was 10 hd, and that was too powerfull for me to raise. I kept reading the description and it stated that I could raise and control 10 hd per casting, to a total of 20 hd total. He got really quiet and then said "Fine". I thought that was a bit silly, but when I noticed him getting upset over the dragon killing some creatures later, i was amused at the childish display. That is all. Here it is the DM's mistake. A young red dragon is not 10hd, it is 13. But since he made the mistake, he should have accepted it and dealt with it. You make it seem he became kinda petulant, and if he did, that was wrong. Based off of his telling you it was 10hd, you most definately could raise it's skeleton. I also neglected to mention that as per our house rules, material components are not needed for spells. And yes, I am glad we survived the adventure. I am not glad, however, that every time we survive an encounter our DM seems bothered by our increasing strength. THAT was my intended rant. Sorry for the confusion. If my players "outsmarted" the encounter, i would not be mad, i would reward them. And thanks for the clarification on skeletons
Ogmug 01-03-06, 04:21 PM	I meant his total attack bonus. The dm told me his stats from the ones he had worked up. The 15 is strength and base attack combined. Still not too sure. a skeletal fire giant is a HUGE creature, with almost 2x as many hd, and 31 str (6 more than a young dragon) but it still only gets +17 to its primary attack, and +12 to its secondary (claws) "The dragon's breath weapon "stopped" our charge as soon as we entered the door. We weren't able to run our full charge distance, otherwise no 2 people would have been blasted. Our plan was to run in and spread out. But instead we ran 5 feet and got blasted. Hence me calling it a free action. And No, the dm never rolled a d4, he apparently mentally rolled 1's every time." Another mistake. Unless the dragon had "readied" the breath (which as another poster pointed out the timing issues involved), then your charge would occur as planned. /meh. As long as you had fun. Now I know that DM's have final say as to what happens, but why is it that when a team of players comes up with a great strategy for killing something quickly, it seems to insult the DM? Maybe it's just my DM, but it keeps happening to me no matter who I play with. Is this common for anyone else? Not in the groups i have played in, nor in the groups i DM for. I recently made a major mistake of allowing spellfire to be added to my campaign, and let a warlock and spellfire weilder become friends.....I had not forseen the ramifications due to short sighted planning on my part, but since the players were ingenious enough to do it, I have allowed it.
Zhymth 01-03-06, 06:07 PM	The truth is that its Pcs vs adventure. The adventure lists stats, monsters, and advantages. To conclude with on last explanation, KNOWLEDGE IS THE MIND KILLER :headexplo :banghead:
Zhymth 01-03-06, 06:07 PM	The truth is that its Pcs vs adventure. The adventure lists stats, monsters, and advantages. To conclude with one last explanation, KNOWLEDGE IS THE MIND KILLER :headexplo :banghead:
daspawnofsatan 01-03-06, 06:32 PM	I feel sorry for the DM and I have some advice - sometimes you cannot and are not suposed to physically defeat all foes presented to you. Ok, I know sometimes you aren't supposed to defeat everything presented to you, but we were on a quest to *cough* KILL THE RED DRAGON *cough* And as for "I feel sorry for the DM" thanks for the constructive critisizm. I really appreciate it. I wasn't asking for any symtpathy, i just wanted to know if more DMs throw tantrums when they don't get their way. Jeez. :mad:
the dmg 01-03-06, 07:12 PM	They don't, and no, respectively. If your DM's playing that way, he needs to be shot with a hammergun. Exactly, a DM should never act that way.
weasel fierce 01-03-06, 09:45 PM	Why does it seem that DMs always try to make their players weaker than everything else? Is it a battle between DM and PCs? Do all DMs like to Almost kill their players with every encounter??? An encounter that is not a challenge is worthless to the game.
tsuyoshikentsu 01-03-06, 10:06 PM	...ninja kobolds. These things are scary. They are NOT CR 2!
tsuyoshikentsu 01-03-06, 10:07 PM	Ok, I know sometimes you aren't supposed to defeat everything presented to you, but we were on a quest to *cough* KILL THE RED DRAGON *cough* And as for "I feel sorry for the DM" thanks for the constructive critisizm. I really appreciate it. I wasn't asking for any symtpathy, i just wanted to know if more DMs throw tantrums when they don't get their way. Jeez. :mad: Whoa, there... who's throwin' the tantrum now?
General_Ridley 01-03-06, 10:29 PM	More specifications... The dragon's breath weapon "stopped" our charge as soon as we entered the door. We weren't able to run our full charge distance, otherwise no 2 people would have been blasted. Our plan was to run in and spread out. But instead we ran 5 feet and got blasted. Hence me calling it a free action. And No, the dm never rolled a d4, he apparently mentally rolled 1's every time. DM have the Draconomicon? this dragon may have had a few metabreath feats instead of standard MM fare. Like, say, Clinging Breath or something. I think there's one that effectively stops you in your tracks. and dragons (except whites who aren't adult) are smarter than typical humans. they will have tactics planned for ambush situations. Also, a ton of undead running in would be an indicator that someone is outside trying to weaken you before coming in themselves. The Dragon acted reasonably.
jasper 01-04-06, 08:30 AM	NO not dm vs player or PLAYER vs dm. However both sides had some problems. We charge. Ack dead. We charge ack dead. About this time I would shut the door. regroup and run away to live to fight another day. Others have pointed out mistakes the dm made.
Illithid13 01-04-06, 12:34 PM	Stop me if this is incorrect, but wouldn't the silver drageon in your party object to having a skellital version of his own kind tooling around with you guys? Drageons are very much the elitest in the truest sense of the word. If anyone has ever been able to command one of their kind or manipulate one of their kinds power (this being the skellital drageon IMO) they gain the hatred of all others. Don't believe this? Look at the Drageon orbs in the DMG.
Grier 01-04-06, 08:54 PM	Proabaly off topic, but responding to the above poster... Gaining the hatred of dragons is specific to the Orbs of Dragonkind. Considering it was an evil red dragon being animated, I don't know if the good silver dragon would mind much. Also, silver and red dragons particularly hate each other, since they often compete over the same area. However, most DM's (or players, for that matter) don't have that kind of detail unless they own/have read the Draconomicon.
Tristan 01-05-06, 04:01 AM	Luckily none of my friends feel that the DM needs to slaughter the players (which I think is stupid :P) however one of them seemed to be of the opinion that we had to beat things though a guessing game. And exaggerated example would be "ok he makes an attack of opportunity against you" "what, how" "you just left one of his threatened squares" "You didnt say he had that big of (apparent)reach" "You didnt ask" we never had that problem^ specifically, but it was often a guessing game.
Thurbane 01-05-06, 04:37 AM	The DM shouldn't be out to slaughter the players, but there does need to be a real sense of danger, otherwise the game falls into "ho-hum, another battle we will easily win"... If you knew there was no real risk of dying in an encounter, where would the fun or excitement be? It would just be s eries of battles in which you beat up on weak creatures. By the same token, I have encountered the occasional "killer DM" who feels that unless a few PCs die during a session he has "failed". Thankfully, these type of DMs are rare enough.