Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 06:33 AM	We had an encounter, EL 4...directly after (3-4 rounds) the next attack hit us...we had very few spells left but he sent 12 Cr 2 against us (several where under alcoholic influence -2 to attack, saves), a monster cr 5 and five smaller creatures cr 1.... ...is this fair or is this aiming at TPK? We were 2 4th level mages, a 3rd level fighter and a 3rd level cleric. My feelings is that he were trying to kill us, as they attacked simultanously, cutting the exit off. Is it just me or is he trying to kill us? Regards Chrash
Yruc 05-25-05, 07:36 AM	when its you vers the DM or the DM vers you. No one wins. If you think it is then there is something wrong. Need more details though, what was the situation, were you trying to sneak into a castle and you fought the guards and then surpised that more came a few rounds later?
Rowan_Whispercloak 05-25-05, 07:46 AM	I just wait to mention that it could also be the dm overestemating the power of the group. I've learned that my group can not take more that one encounter a day that is there level, but can take an encounter that is 2 levels higher no problem, they go nova really good.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 07:57 AM	We were entering an Inn that had been assaulted...very large inn...we opened the doors and fought of an encounter of at least EL 4...plus some extra...then it went quiet, apart from a guy that ran away and alarmed the rest...we got ready for battle, and then the first guys came...about 10 of them...we kinda paralysed them (hypnotic pattern) and then from another door came 2 CR 2 humans, 5 CR 1 baboons, and a Afflicted lycanthrope CR 5 (But he was modified).... ...now, it was a bought adventure, and after it ended, I got hold of it....and it seems the magazine does not tell about more than 3-4 CR 2 humans attacking at one time, nor does it says that someone raises a general alarm. It states that they are drunk and filled with false bravado... And nowhere in the adventure does it say that any of the other are alarmed by us fighting in the front of the inn... So it kinda seems like he is wanting us dead...or is it just me, who are too sensitive? Regards Chrash
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 05-25-05, 08:23 AM	Personally, I think he's just trying to improvise some parts of a module. Definitely not High Crimes and Treason. If the module is completed now, then move on. ;)
MrkGrismer 05-25-05, 09:01 AM	I don't understand. Did any of the characters die? Did any even come close to dying? If the DM is trying to kill the group, then the group would be dead. It isn't difficult to kill a party, the difficult thing is supplying challenges that keep things interesting without killing the party. No 'bought' adventure should ever be used 'as is' (except possibly in a one-off game). An adventure has to be tailored to the characters going thru it, and possibly to the players as well, as well as to the ongoing campaign. It sounds to me like your DM was just developing the consequences of what occurred within the module as they would apply in a consistent world. Many pre-made adventures can wind up being a mass-melee within the first couple rooms against half the creatures in the module if alarms are spread and both sides are sufficiently 'gun-ho'. An adventure where each room has the creatures sitting around unaware playing cards when the party is clanging about in full plate arguing out loud and such would not be believable.
Zyphus 05-25-05, 09:06 AM	and then from another door came 2 CR 2 humans, 5 CR 1 baboons, and a Afflicted lycanthrope CR 5 (But he was modified).... ...now, it was a bought adventure, and after it ended, I got hold of it....and it seems the magazine does not tell about more than 3-4 CR 2 humans attacking at one time, nor does it says that someone raises a general alarm. It states that they are drunk and filled with false bravado... And nowhere in the adventure does it say that any of the other are alarmed by us fighting in the front of the inn... So it kinda seems like he is wanting us dead...or is it just me, who are too sensitive? Too sensitive. 4 CR 2 humans isn't much different that 2 CR 2s and some CR 1s. I would guess baboons aren't as good strategists as humans. Hard to say about the lycanthrope since it was modified. How could fighting outside NOT raise an alarm? A module shouldn't have to spell out common sense. Plus you know someone was raising an alarm, you had the chance to hold actions and plug arrows into people, get cover, or just plain run away from a drunken mob. If the group had any spells too I don't see why your group would lose.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 09:10 AM	Well, everybody went down on count, two of us did die...but we actually did not have any way of stopping them...and we did not have any indication of the massive threat that were coming our way...we basically thought it would be the same challenge that were coming our way...no other signs had been there...like "You hear a lot of running noises, you guess them to be like 20"...they came out of nowhere... They only thing that brought us back was because the DM changed the the situation...it was a prebought adventure...where everybody was arranged to where they should be...but the DM decided to send all the troops against us at once... Regards Chrash
Phrennzy 05-25-05, 09:47 AM	Could you have run away? That's an option that few players seem to consider. You said it was an inn - did you seek a more defensible position in the inn, or just duke it out in the barroom? It sounds as though the DM may have had too much against you guys at once - but I want to hear tactics used by the party.
Ulthain 05-25-05, 09:53 AM	This is the Lucky Monkey inn from AP1 in Dungeon magazine. Since I went through it as a player, I don't know the name of the adventure. No, the DM is not trying to kill you. The adventure IS that hard. But I can see your party having problems with it. First problem is the characters, its not a well balanced party. 2 wizards... Let me guess, they have lots of damage spells? Let me explain what our party did: 1) Cast silence on door. 2) Smash door with portable ram (more fun than letting the rogue pick the lock) 3) Barbarian charges and stumps one enemy with greataxe. 4) Others loose first volley of arrows, felling 1 other enemy. 5) 2 Enemies engage, get killed in third round. Drunk enemy rise from the debris. 6) Last enemy killed in hail of arrows. 7) Proceed to kitchen where lycanthrope baboon and baboons are looting treasure. 8) Retreat to better position in dining room. 9) Get charged by lycanthrope and 10 baboons. 10) Wizard casts web. 11) We kill lycanthrope with silver weapons while keeping the baboons cramped in the web. 12) as the baboons exit, we kill them one by one. When there are none out, we shoot the ones in the web. We expended some cure light wounds wand charges, 1 web spell, 1 silence spell and 1 ray of enfeeblement. The rest of the inn was pure cleaning up once the baboons where gone. The AP is very hard if you have poor resource management and wizards have that by default. You have 2 of those and that is your problem. Our party was 5 characters strong, granted. This is the makeup: Human Clr4 (used light crossbow when not needed for healing with wands, cast silence) Elf Wiz4 (used longbow when not casting either the web or ray) Human Bbn2/Ftr2 (portable ram/greataxe) Human Rog2/rgr2 (rapier, second melee guy) Human Brd4 (horn, shortbow) The star of this composition is the bard, the bonus he grants with a horn (used 3.0 style since this was before the introduction of the complete adventurers recap of music instruments) is +2 to hit and +2 to damage rolls. It turns himself, the wizard and the cleric into ranged killing machines. When he got to level 6 we had acquired the CA and the new rules nerfed the horn, but then he had picked up Words of Creation from BoED which you can't use if you are under the age of 18 and a US citizen. I think you seriously need to consider dropping one of your wizards for something else with better resource management. The inn was a walk in the park compared to where you are going next. An alternative route is to bleed it out until you reach level 6 and get a cohort on the character with the best charisma.
Phrennzy 05-25-05, 09:59 AM	An additional PC can make a HUGE difference - that's one more attack each round. Web is the greatest spell ever for low level wizards. It has been CONSTANTLY used by my group's mage - must to my (DM) dismay. Good tactics helps a lot - and so does a raging barbarian.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 10:15 AM	Well, we made a front against the two staircases so we wouldn't be surprised from behind. Then the main force made its entrance (10 CR 2) and we began fighting them...then out of nowhere the rest of the force came out from the doors, no sounds of them coming (1 CR 5, 5 CR 1, and 2 CR 2)...The one fighter was immideately surrounded, while two of the CR 2 blocked the door, so the party was divided up...we were trying to run, but only the two mages came outside (still at great damage done to themselves). At the same time, the Cleric was slaughtered almost in the first two rounds... So...tactics...hmm...we actually just tried to run when we realised the amount of persons...like...if we had heard that over ten persons were coming, we probably would have run...and we tried when we saw them...but to no help... Oh yeah, the module says that everybody is busy in the back of the house by smashing up the inn, and that it is common for the persons inside the house to fight amongst themselves...thats why combat does not raise alarm...oh yeah and they are drunk, so they are filled with "false bravado" :-D We had already fought an initial encounter...so we were kinda depleted in the spells department... But I guess I am just too sensitive then Regards Chrash
Ulthain 05-25-05, 10:23 AM	An additional PC can make a HUGE difference - that's one more attack each round. Web is the greatest spell ever for low level wizards. It has been CONSTANTLY used by my group's mage - must to my (DM) dismay. Good tactics helps a lot - and so does a raging barbarian. I know it's a huge difference with an additional character, although at these low levels all he did was grant the rest +2/+2 since he needed to keep his hands on the horn. The point was that the AP is hard, Tongueeater (as the werebaboon is named) has according to my DM caused quite a few TPK's all over the world. Nailing him with a ray of enfeeblement and bringing silver to the party meant we hardly broke into a sweat. Our party, with the additional PC, has had serious trouble later in the AP, but still have only 1 character death to the pair of hammer automatons in the malachite fortress (previous to the episode these guys are playing atm).
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 10:32 AM	Well, we had used most of the spells on the first encounter (we had a previous encounter with 8 CR 2 guys, just 4 rounds before this occured) and we never knew he was a lycanthrope, plus we did not have any magic items...our DM kinda snatched all the treasure from the previous scenario, as we were too cautious and escorted the prisoners up to the surface...while we were gentle, the DM had someone snatch the treasure in the treasure-room in the malachite fortress... ...so the fighter was chopping away at the Lycantrophe, trying to bypass its DR, and he never had a hint about it being a werecreature...he was in possession of silver :-D Regards Chrash
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 05-25-05, 10:36 AM	I would venture a guess that: 1. The DM out strategized your party. 2. Resource management magnified this problem. 3. The DM may not have run the encounter *correctly* (*read: as written) Although these can all add up in a large encounter, I still feel you are being a bit over sensitive. As long as he's not summoning hordes of Baator on a whim, I'm fairly assured he's not attempting for an intentional TPK.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 10:38 AM	To Ulthain: Man it sounds efficiently...but still, two of you were one level higher than the two of us... But...did you get attacked by all the Thugs and the Tongueeater and his baboons at once, when you entered the lucky monkey? We did...which kinda killed us off :-D Regards Chrash
Ulthain 05-25-05, 10:42 AM	...so the fighter was chopping away at the Lycantrophe, trying to bypass its DR, and he never had a hint about it being a werecreature...he was in possession of silver :-D Regards Chrash This is why its imperative that you stack up on lots of knowledge skills. With 2 wizards you should have them all maxed out between them and the cleric. I completely understand that your wizards are drained if you have a previous encounter when they are only level 4. Make sure to pickup charm, it works wonders for creating a meatshield and will eleviate the problem of resource management somewhat. Also, if you know your DM to be an ass when it comes to lettign you have the treasure, make sure to use one of the keys you found to lock your treasure behind a DC 30 trapped door :)
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 10:46 AM	I would venture a guess that: 1. The DM out strategized your party. 2. Resource management magnified this problem. 3. The DM may not have run the encounter *correctly* (*read: as written) Although these can all add up in a large encounter, I still feel you are being a bit over sensitive. As long as he's not summoning hordes of Baator on a whim, I'm fairly assured he's not attempting for an intentional TPK. 1. That's for sure...but in the adventure it clearly states that the majority of this bunch are drunk...and that they do NOT have the ability to strategize but tend to be filled with false bravado 2. Another well spoken point...but we had no clue about what was ahead...so we used most of our resources in the first (hard) battle (EL 6+) 3... well, it was in fact written in the adventure, that "rather than attack at once they tend to attack in groups of 3 or 4 if they are aware of being under attack" ...so perhaps I am just over sensitive...my DM is just trying to make it impossible to win rather than kill me :-D But it was strategically wellplayed from his side, that he cut off our exits, so he divided us from eachother...so that the two on the outside would not leave their comrades inside...still, the story script says that they are not strategically at all...but again, this is just how you interpret that... I still think that an all-out attack from 1 CR 5, 12 CR 2 and 5 CR 1 is a bit harsh when you cut of the escape route...but again, I am a bit sensitive, when I was the one who was left inside :-D Regards Chrash
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 10:51 AM	This is why its imperative that you stack up on lots of knowledge skills. With 2 wizards you should have them all maxed out between them and the cleric...:) Hmm...Both mages had Maxed out Knowledge: Arcane, one of them had Knowledge: Monsters, and the Cleric was maxed out in Knowledge: Religion...but we got no hint anyway...I think we need to ask: "Do we know anything about this creature" before the DM lets us make a roll... Regards Chrash
Ulthain 05-25-05, 10:54 AM	To Ulthain: Man it sounds efficiently...but still, two of you were one level higher than the two of us... But...did you get attacked by all the Thugs and the Tongueeater and his baboons at once, when you entered the lucky monkey? We did...which kinda killed us off :-D Regards Chrash No, we managed to seal of the first room so that none escaped. Then we walked in on tongueater. I think I missremembered the level on the rog/rgr, he was the one in the bucket after the hammer automaton critted him. But still, we had 1 additional character and 1 guy with an extra level. I think having an extra level on the ftr/bbn compared to your ftr is the single most important part. Also, we kind of xp hoarded the AP1 first installment since it indicated that it was intended to be played that way (running into a choker as level 1s, ick! and then an Otyugh...) I think 2 wizards might be good later on, but you will be hard pressed until you get there.
Ulthain 05-25-05, 10:59 AM	Hmm...Both mages had Maxed out Knowledge: Arcane, one of them had Knowledge: Monsters, and the Cleric was maxed out in Knowledge: Religion...but we got no hint anyway...I think we need to ask: "Do we know anything about this creature" before the DM lets us make a roll... Regards Chrash There is no Knowledge (Monsters). :) The skill to use for recognizing lycanthropes is knowledge (dungeoneering) and as you said you don't have it. :( Get knowledge for arcana, dungeoneering, nature, religion, the planes as well as local for the region your DM is running the AP in. You will need it. Also, consider getting geography and underdark, you will thank me for that later. :P If your DM has decided to run your knowledges like that, always start each battle by saying, "what do I know about these critters?"
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 11:03 AM	I think he kinda runs it on how his mood is...if he is not too busy he asks for knowledge-checks... Lycanthropy...hmm...couldn't that be a heal-check as it is a disease? Regards Chrash
Ulthain 05-25-05, 11:16 AM	creature type decide what knowledge skill to apply. lycantrhope -> shapechanger -> dungeoneering baboon-> animal -> nature bandit -> humanoid -> local Your DM might be lenient and give you a healcheck though, so it might be worth a try. :) I can't really comment on how your DM decided to run the encounter, but I can assure you that we would have been in the same spot as you where if we had let anyone escape from the first room.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 11:26 AM	Hmm..yeah, but well, it does not seem like your DM gave anyone the chance to flee......he could have said that they all ran for help...our DM had one person awake, look at us and then run...without any of us even remotely having a chance to stop him...oh yeah, and then he ran up the stairs, got everyone there, down the kitchen, got the Tongueeater and down the cellar and got the last guys...he was kinda quick for a newly awakened guy :-D ...I guess that's the main difference...if your DM gave you a chance or not ;-) Regards Chrash
Phrennzy 05-25-05, 11:36 AM	No one else has mentioned this - and maybe it's just me - but I am bothered by the Player 'getting ahold of' the adventure, even after it's played. Especially a published mod, since there are bits and pieces of foreshadowing throughout that magazine - which would ruin fun if you plan to run future follow along modules.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 11:40 AM	Oh but I kinda got out of the whole campaign...which is then like I am not even involved in anything closely related to the campaign anymore...and I am not playing with that DM anymore either ...so isn't it kinda censorship, if you say I cannot read something, which has no relevance at all? :-D Regards Chrash
Phrennzy 05-25-05, 11:53 AM	I'm not saying you can't read it. I'm saying it is in your own best interest, and the interest of the other players, if you don't. Now that you aren't in the campaign anymore, it isn't that big of a deal, as long as you don't talk to the other players about the campaign. And you say "censorship" likes it's a dirty word. As a DM, I censor what my players can and cannot read - even if they weren't playing in my campaign, I would not allow them to read my adventure notes, if only because that would prevent them from ever playing in that campaign. If they are playing in my campaign, I most certainly censor what they can and cannot read. (As far as campaign relevant material.)
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 12:27 PM	Of course, you are right...censorship is not a dirty word... I agree with censorship on persons that are in the campaign...but I have signed out of the campaign, so it shouldn't be forbidden for me, as I am very aware of what I reveal to the remaining characters... I am just defending against what you said about being "bothered by the Player 'getting ahold of' the adventure, even after it's played. " ... I hope you are not bothered by me :-D Regards Chrash
Phrennzy 05-25-05, 12:40 PM	I hope you are not bothered by me :-D Now that you aren't a player in that campaign, no. ;)
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 12:56 PM	Hehe...I would actually never read a module for a campaign that I was participating in as it would ruin the fun for both me, the DM and the rest of the players... Afterwards, if I am not participating in any remotely similar campaign...Well, I like to read how it was produced...Call me curious george.... Regards Chrash
GoofsterStud 05-25-05, 01:15 PM	It sounds like you guys need a decently optimized fighter or barbarian. Need any more PC's in your Omaha games? If so that's my favorite role.
Omaha_beach 05-25-05, 01:20 PM	Eh...we are situated in Denmark...??!?! Not Omaha...sorry bout that :D Regards Chrash