Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OamuTheMonk 04-01-05, 12:40 AM	Okay, heres the skinny. I've been playing in a game for a little less than a year now, and while we've been having a good time with it, the characters in the party have been fighting against a seemingly insurmountable foe: Poverty. Now I understand that it is customary for players to complain about their character's level of wealth, and much of what I say will be filtered through that particular prism, but hear me out. My character, an eighth-level monk, has, in total, somewhere in the area of two thousand GP worth of goods and cash. He has no permanent magic items of any kind (some potions of magic fang were probably my biggest purchase to date), nor any masterwork gear (the Sai I keep for disarming cost like 5 GP). Our party's headquarters was broken into twice (despite our meager attempts to reinforce it with what cash we had on hand), and we have recently become (no foolin') homeless. We have now taken on the lam, leaving most of our belongings (tools and alchemist's gear and such) behind, and carrying what cash we have (essentially in big sacks) to try and carry on. Now, while I am a monk, and require very little, there are spellcasters in the party (naturally), who have it worse, as magic AC enhancements have been simultaneously unavailable and unaffordable for the most part. Aside from the party Barbarian and Rogue (who have managed to scrape together some decent armor), the spellcasters and I are essentially fighting evil in our pajamas--I have a natural AC of 16 (+4 dex, +2 wis) which means that the average CR 8 battler-type monster needs to roll a Natural 1 to miss me--a problem exacerbated by the fact that we have no Cleric, and our only source for healing potions in the early part of the campaign was sort of a crooked merchant who was gouging us pretty badly. The lack of funds has rendered some feats and skill choices pretty much moot (try crafting any wondrous items for less than 500GP, you'll see what I mean), and with the party in such sorry shape, I'm really not sure how we can make a go of it--It feels like the first misstep we make could lead to TPK. Here's the other problem: The DM has crafted a fairly tight chronology of events in his world, and it seems that we are always having to dash from one fire to the next, without any real chances for us to get a handle on our situation (our recent homelessness is a good example). The constant struggling (mostly for cash with which to buy healing) and lack of security has made us pretty paranoid, and I'm starting to feel like this game is a little too much like real life. Here's the reason I'd like to see it salvaged: the other players (and the DM for that matter, he's not malicious or petty or anything) are an absolute joy to be around, we really do have fun slaying monsters together, and the unfolding story is engaging and intricate. So, suggestions, anyone?
Board_Rider 04-01-05, 12:48 AM	Well it sounds as if the DM is kind railroading a bit and fostering, probably unintentionally, a little DM vs Player rivalry. Its not out of the ordinary for some DMs to poorly equip his players (thus their PCs) and make them kinda feel the pinch. However people need to progress and him making you run around and really recieving no benefits can get frustrating. The best thing I can reccomend is that everyone talk with him. However if everyone is having fun and noone is dying all of the time then it probably won't ever be that big of a deal. Having fun is usually more important than loot. EDIT: It is survivable if the DM realizes the kind of situation you're in.
OamuTheMonk 04-01-05, 01:35 AM	...he's not a bad guy, he doesn't seem biased against us (the players) or anything, I'm just not sure It's going to be feasable for us (as adventurers fighting evil) to get involved in combat with monsters that are remotely our (character) level. When four out of five party members essentially get hit every time they're swung at (hell, the Barbarian takes his share too--he's just got more HP to spare), and healing magic is unavailable, every encounter becomes a possible tombstone. The other thing I feel that I did not make clear is that my estimated wealth includes essentially everything I have ever bought or owned (including every ration I've ever eaten, every potion I've ever drank, and every Alchemist's fire I've ever thrown)...I essentially have the same exact equipment I was using when we started (at level three)--in any case, my complaint is not that we don't have enough cool stuff, it's that we don't seem to have access to any of the things that make a character survivable at higher levels. If you could concievably have to take out a Medusa, it seems that stone salve should at least be a possible purchase for your party--and it's not. Unavailable and even if we had a source, probably unaffordable.
BrainInAJar 04-01-05, 03:35 AM	It cannot be repeated enough.... If you have a problem, first and foremost, talk to the DM. Unless he knows about your problem, he won't be able to help. He may not know how poor you really are, or perhaps he has a good reason for it. Its always best to speak to your DM, rather than let your problem fester in your head. You may end up leaving a group, and finding the next session that they all were finally rewarded for their valient efforts. 90% of the time - DM knows best!
cartel 04-01-05, 03:47 AM	Unless your DM is completely railroading you you should be able to IC drag things round to where you want them to be. Turn down dangerous jobs. Anyone that tries to get you to do them IC needs to be told that you don't have the means to do so. If they want you to do the job, tell them they are going to have to pay/source some of your equipment. A bunch of healing potions for a start. Have a chat with your DM. Give him some IC options that he can use instead of just dumping a load of kit on you. Start looking for your own jobs, ones where you are able to earn a load of money and buy the kit you want. Or a quests looking for things. If the DM's any good he'll realise what you're after and script adventures accordingly.
Ra-Tiel 04-01-05, 03:57 AM	Hi. I also don't get the feel your dm is out to get you, but he better realize that some classes simply NEED money and magic gear to be effective. It will get very hairy for you if you meet a monster with dr 15/magic and no one carries a magic weapon (or cannot hit with it). As for the breaking into your base of operations and becoming homeless... dnd is supposed to be about heroes... well, I can hardly imagine Elminster or such sitting under a bridge and asking for a copper. DnD is fantasy. Fantasy means magic. Magic means magic items. And finally, magic items mean fun. Just my opinion. Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Asciiman 04-01-05, 04:46 AM	Am I the only one who thinks that this sounds like an absolutely wicked game? Seriously though. I'd love to play in a game where my character is needed in so many places at once. This is the type of game where you get by on the skin of your teeth and then you have to sell that said skin for money to buy food. This sounds like a good game. Now this being said you should sometime, and soon get some money to catch up to what is happening.
Thelandrach 04-01-05, 08:49 AM	I'm agreeing with some things that have been said-- 1. Talk to the DM. Explain the situation to him about how things seem to be heading to a sticky end. 2. Turn down high-risk, low-reward jobs. It is literally not worth it. Tell people they have to give you, say, 500 gp per character up front if there's a serious risk involved, or they need to give you a sack of healing potions. Or hire yourselves out to a church and convince them to send a cleric along with you. 3. In case the first two don't work: Get jobs. Tell your GM you're all broke and need stuff, so you're going to get day jobs and earn your 5 gp per week until you've got enough money to buy some stuff. It sounds like you'd make more money, faster, that way than adventuring. Might take a year or two, but it beats dying.
ehrin 04-01-05, 08:55 AM	Sounds like a wonderful Roleplaying game, so follow the advice given already, and Role play back: refuse to run to the next fire. Raise your prices for the next adventure: if you hold firm, the NPC will eventually have to give in, if he wants your services. Sure, he can hire someone else, but that means the party sits or does mundane things until the DM ups the ante a bit. Stop running to the next fire. Rest a bit, set up a service, and raise money... magic users can clean and mend for a copper or two. Do that for a year (game time, not real), and the DM will throw a bone or two your way to get you out of the cleaning business. Stop risking your lives for combat with no rewards. Turn down jobs that don't pay enough. Run away from fights and fires. Remember, YOU control the flow of the story just as much (or more) as the DM. You can help him write it.
Phrennzy 04-01-05, 09:35 AM	Print out what you wrote. Take it to your DM. Explain your concerns and have him read what you wrote. If you aren't having fun playing like that, you need to speak up. If everyone else, it turns out, is having fun, maybe you need to find what they find fun about it, and begin to enjoy it. Talk to the DM, he's a player too, and wants everyone to have fun.
MrkGrismer 04-01-05, 09:52 AM	Print out what you wrote. Take it to your DM. Explain your concerns and have him read what you wrote. If you aren't having fun playing like that, you need to speak up. If everyone else, it turns out, is having fun, maybe you need to find what they find fun about it, and begin to enjoy it. Talk to the DM, he's a player too, and wants everyone to have fun. The above is really the best thing to do. I would suggest just starting a conversation about the wealth by level table in the DMG and how the CRs of the monsters are supposed to be balanced according to those assumptions. The great thing is that it is far easier for a DM that has been a little stingy with rewards to start raising those rewards then it is for a DM that has been overly generous to reign them in.
OamuTheMonk 04-01-05, 10:12 AM	As for talking to the DM, I have done so, but my concerns seem to get filtered through that "Players always complain about their lack of stuff" prism I mentioned earlier--I dont think he's capable of seeing that mechanically it's really starting to pinch the survivability of our party that we are so destitute. As for the suggestion that we just stop taking on missions--well, we don't get to play that often, and, like I said, the monster-fighting is what we like the most. We also have been targeted (naturally) by a sort of wide ranging conspiracy--"taking it on the lam" was meant quite literally. The fact that the party is light on melee prowess (as a monk, I make up about 40% of our frontline--the Barbarian being the other 60%) means that every fight has to be staggeringly strategic, or we will get schooled. Any big targets (enemy spellcasters, young dragons) are invariably placed on high ground, possibly with their backs against a wall, possibly with difficult terrain that always favors them. Flanking is difficult at best, and I can't remember ever getting the drop on anyone (the rogue's sneak attack should be called "flank attack"). It would simply be nice if we were not at death's door after every encounter.
screwtape 04-01-05, 12:27 PM	“Am I the only one who thinks that this sounds like an absolutely wicked game?” Nope. The game I run is lower magic and the PCs are lean. They have about half the treasure that is recommended in the DMG. Of course, the bad guys are likewise lean. But Oamu has a point. It is a balancing act. There comes a point were magic is necessary for survival. It is a difficult conversation to have without sounding like a whiner, a meta-gamer or a rules lawyer. Try working it out in character. “Guys, we keep getting out of these jams by the skin of our teeth. We aren’t going to be so lucky one of these days. We have to do something or we are headed for our graves.” Maybe strike off on an expedition for a known magic item? Maybe your characters are forced to become desperate outlaws and steal? It could make an interesting character arc. Maybe you can get your DM to post to this thread. His perspective would be helpful.
Ra-Tiel 04-01-05, 03:19 PM	As for talking to the DM, I have done so, but my concerns seem to get filtered through that "Players always complain about their lack of stuff" prism I mentioned earlier--I dont think he's capable of seeing that mechanically it's really starting to pinch the survivability of our party that we are so destitute. As for the suggestion that we just stop taking on missions--well, we don't get to play that often, and, like I said, the monster-fighting is what we like the most. We also have been targeted (naturally) by a sort of wide ranging conspiracy--"taking it on the lam" was meant quite literally. The fact that the party is light on melee prowess (as a monk, I make up about 40% of our frontline--the Barbarian being the other 60%) means that every fight has to be staggeringly strategic, or we will get schooled. Any big targets (enemy spellcasters, young dragons) are invariably placed on high ground, possibly with their backs against a wall, possibly with difficult terrain that always favors them. Flanking is difficult at best, and I can't remember ever getting the drop on anyone (the rogue's sneak attack should be called "flank attack"). It would simply be nice if we were not at death's door after every encounter. WHAT!? Your dm is putting you against spellcasters and dragons? Or did I miss something here? A party that is barely able to survive against mundane enemies? Politely point your dm to the chapter "Rewards" in the DMG and make him read the paragraph about "wealth by level" also! I really wonder how you managed to survive this long! You said you were level 8? Some time ago a cr6 monster simply *mashed* our lvl6 rogue in FR! And we were 4 players and had magical equipment at hand (wands, potions, rings, weapons,...). I wonder how you'd fare against a basilisk, or a greater barghest. I don't doubt that you have fun at this game, neither do I say your DM is stupid or something. It is just that you're headed for a tpk with Warp 9.9. The first creature with regen or a big dr could completely (to use the new language that appeared on the net) OWN you. To be honest, I personally would not participate in such a game. Especially not as a melee combatant or any class that is dependent on equipment (which is every class not able to cast spells and the ranger...). That's just my opinion on the topic. A fighter (or barbarian) without a magic weapon is simply useless to the party in combat. He's then just providing additional hp for the caster and barely anything more. Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
RogerWilco 04-01-05, 03:43 PM	You need to talk tou your DM about the Wealth/level tables in the dungeon master guide, and tell him that if he doesn't abide by that, he should make the monsters easier too, as the CR assumes the DM follows that table. Tell him that according to the table and explanation on page 54, and Table 5-1 on page 135, you should have about 27-36,000 gp per PC in items at level 8, or he should adjust the monsters.
Angrboda 04-01-05, 03:50 PM	Yes, we've faced spellcasters & a young dragon already! I'm the wizard in this campaign. Our entire party has to be tentative & paranoid, because we've been taught by experience that this is the way we must behave in order to survive. While we have managed to have a lot of fun in spite of our lack of resources, it is getting to the point that we will soon be unable to manage to scrape by. It's luck & some good rolls that have kept us going until now.
RogerWilco 04-01-05, 03:53 PM	If he's giving out less treasure, suggest he uses table 3-3 to find what encounter level is appropriate for te amount of treasure he does give. Do you know an average spellbook is worth 5000 gp ? If you faced spellcasters, sell their spellbook!
Mandarbgrim 04-01-05, 03:54 PM	I like gritty noirish realism..sounds kind of interesting, but I would note that you should point out how much it sucks playing certain types of characters in those kinds of games. He probably should have told you ahead of time if this was the type of game you were going to be in. Again, though.. I would probably like that game.. If I knew what kind of game it would be before hand. VOP Monk...<Drools.>
Angrboda 04-01-05, 03:58 PM	The last time we faced a powerful spellcaster, she had a contingency spell that teleported her away just as we were about to kill her & after our sorcerer was dead...not downed, dead. We called in a favor to get the sorcerer resurrected, but it could have been the end of the game for him. And if it hadn't been for some lucky rolls, we'd have lost the monk & the barbarian in the same last ditch attack. So, no spellbook to sell. No other spellcasters we've met have had spellbooks.
RogerWilco 04-01-05, 03:59 PM	Do you have access to the Book of Exhalted deeds, then find the Vow of Poverty feat, that should give you some idea how not having equipment should be compensated. (I don't have the book so can't give exact numbers)
UltimateReality 04-01-05, 04:00 PM	The monk should pick up Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, out of the "Book of Exalted Deeds", if the DM allows that source material. Actually, the best course of action may be full-out player mutiny. One player, even two, a DM can put down to "whiny munchkinness", but when the entire group complains, he has to deal with the issue or he won't have a group. If worse comes to worst, one of the players can offer to take over DMing and run a separate adventure for a bit.
RogerWilco 04-01-05, 04:02 PM	The last time we faced a powerful spellcaster, she had a contingency spell that teleported her away just as we were about to kill her & after our sorcerer was dead...not downed, dead. We called in a favor to get the sorcerer resurrected, but it could have been the end of the game for him. And if it hadn't been for some lucky rolls, we'd have lost the monk & the barbarian in the same last ditch attack. So, no spellbook to sell. No other spellcasters we've met have had spellbooks. All I can say: show your DM tables 3-3, 5-1 and the one on page 54, with the accompanying text. Then discuss what they mean.
tender branson 04-01-05, 04:38 PM	next time you're supposed to "dash off" to the next location, say no. go to the nearest town and get everything worked out. say your character has quit adventuring and has become a farmer, because the pay's much better, or just go window shopping. hell, spend an hour roleplaying your character's search for someone less wealthy than he is. maybe the point will get across. next encounter, run, say your character is ill-equipped to handle whatever. say he can't afford to eat, let alone save the world. ask the next npc that sends you on a quest to save the world why he's telling a poor, ill-equipped party to do something an army would better be able to do.
Moon-Lancer 04-01-05, 05:09 PM	i hate it when dms dont uderstand that the cr for d&d 3.5 is connected to wealth.
OamuTheMonk 04-01-05, 10:53 PM	We've actually come to many of the same conclusions, and are going to be trying some of these tactics. Like I say, I'm not trying to be some kind of rabble-rouser, I just want to continue to have a shot at victory. We are actually getting ready for a change of scenery (easy when you're homeless), preceded by some preparatory down-time...Hopefully, some new, lucrative prospects can be exploited at our next location.
psionichamster 04-02-05, 11:09 AM	other alternative routes to wealth: nobility...get married into the gentry, get some $$$...even better if you can fake your own death and skip town with the loot theft...not so much for your monk, but lifting a couple purses/chests/whathaveyou should make for some quick coin. (don't EVER spend more than 2 days in a given place, never turn your back to a door/window, and ALWAYS have another way out) ransom...so the bad guys like to escape, do they? spend some time, do some research, find their relatives/loved ones, grab em. now you have all kinds of leverage to use on him/her con-games...in my current campaign, my wizard and the bard came up with a wonderful plan...make and sell lottery tickets (for 1gp/per) to a decent sized house in waterdeep. with glibness and prestidigitation (as well as some other cantrips) you can sell em all over. tailor price to your intended market (in our case, the gentry...) bartering for more pay. "sir, we need you to travel to this location, find the source of the problem, and eradicate it. again" "sure, government official sending me on a death-errand. here's my fee schedule, i need that in cash, upfront." "what, you don't like paying for the services of a known world-saving heroe's group? fine, do it yourself" (then leave town) as has been suggested above, talk to the dm (preferably after a game, with the whole group there, or enough time in advance to give him a little "tweakery" time for the current game...if you can't get it resolved to a point where all are having fun, it may be time for another to take up the mantle of DM for a while. namaste, the hamster
Cold Napalm 04-03-05, 08:26 AM	The last time we faced a powerful spellcaster, she had a contingency spell that teleported her away just as we were about to kill her & after our sorcerer was dead...not downed, dead. We called in a favor to get the sorcerer resurrected, but it could have been the end of the game for him. And if it hadn't been for some lucky rolls, we'd have lost the monk & the barbarian in the same last ditch attack. So, no spellbook to sell. No other spellcasters we've met have had spellbooks. Wait wait wait...your level 8 party is against a level 15 caster (contingency+teleport)?!? WTF? Okay your DM needs a visit from shadow dragon and his hammer gun. And your under equiped. Send him here so we can properly lecture him. Low treasure game is no problem as long as CR is adjusted for low wealth...sending something twice their level is NOT properly adjusting the CR.
Ra-Tiel 04-03-05, 08:43 AM	Yes, we've faced spellcasters & a young dragon already! I'm the wizard in this campaign. Our entire party has to be tentative & paranoid, because we've been taught by experience that this is the way we must behave in order to survive. While we have managed to have a lot of fun in spite of our lack of resources, it is getting to the point that we will soon be unable to manage to scrape by. It's luck & some good rolls that have kept us going until now. The last time we faced a powerful spellcaster, she had a contingency spell that teleported her away just as we were about to kill her & after our sorcerer was dead...not downed, dead. We called in a favor to get the sorcerer resurrected, but it could have been the end of the game for him. And if it hadn't been for some lucky rolls, we'd have lost the monk & the barbarian in the same last ditch attack. So, no spellbook to sell. No other spellcasters we've met have had spellbooks. Wait a minute.... did I get that correctly? A party with NO magical gear is sent against spellcasters of at least equal level and a young dragon? How the hell did you survive? In the next gaming seesion, just demand from your DM to roll in the open. If he refuses, it's clear that he has to fudge the dice just to keep you alive. And how the hell were you able to get together a spellbook? Does your DM know what it costs to write a spell into one? 1page per spell level, 150gp per page if i'm correct... And that encounter with a lvl13+ caster (contigency is sor/wiz6, greater teleport is sor/wiz7) against a lvl8 party with NO magical gear.... well.... I'll advise to simply forget that this ever happened. How did you survive the first round? Chain Lightning, anyone? Perhaps inviting your DM to this thread is the best idea.... as long as we keep it polite.... Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Cold Napalm 04-03-05, 08:50 AM	It costs 100 GP per spell level...not 150. The wizard was level 15+...the contingency had teleport a 5th level spell which means CL 15.
Ra-Tiel 04-03-05, 09:21 AM	It costs 100 GP per spell level...not 150. The wizard was level 15+...the contingency had teleport a 5th level spell which means CL 15. You are correct, Cold Napalm... I was going off my head and didn't have my books at hand. It is indeed CL 15 and 100gp per page. Just a moment.... at CL15, a wizard has access to Horrid Wilting? Why is the party still alive? Did the DM play an int3 wizard? 15d6 Fort DC (at least!) 22 half versus 8hd? No way!! _Ra-Tiel.
Cold Napalm 04-03-05, 09:24 AM	Maybe the sorcerer got polar rayed? hehe.
Ra-Tiel 04-03-05, 01:20 PM	Maybe the sorcerer got polar rayed? hehe. :rofl:
Vanigo 04-03-05, 04:11 PM	One thing to keep in mind is that the bodies of many monsters - especially dragons - are very valuable. Even if you didn't get that dragon's horde for one reason or another, you should have been able to carve it up and sell the body for thousands of gold. Get yourself a wagon or two and loot anything even remotely valuable. Is there any furniture in the places you go? Great? You should be able to get some cash for that. Glass windows? Load 'em up! A three-ton statue of a dark god? Well, you might want to leave that one there; I mean, who's going to buy it? If you fight anyone who's likely to escape, use sunder and disarm to steal everything valuable looking they've got before they get a chance. Often good tactics, too.
Gristooth 04-03-05, 05:19 PM	When the TPK comes, embrace it. Then, have everyone create new characters as munched-out VOP monks, druids, and sorcerers. That'll show 'em. :D
FreeTheSlaves 04-03-05, 06:40 PM	When the TPK comes, embrace it. Then, have everyone create new characters as munched-out VOP monks, druids, and sorcerers. That'll show 'em. :D Hmm, as a DM you know you've lost the plot when the entire party considers it worthwhile to tale VoP. Maybe the problem would be best solved by everyone chipping in and buying the poor DM a DMG?
HypnoticMonk 04-03-05, 06:48 PM	I feel your pian, my first campaign world ( waaaaay back in 1st Edition land) had no PC clerics and only one NPC druid for the first 4 years we gamed, so we were in similiar straits. At least we could buy healing potions and the like. Just some random thoughts off the top on my little brain... Supply and demand is the key of the day. Remember your party is in high Demand and there is a short Supply of you( a.k.a. only one of your group), so he( or the campaign world) should be willing to pay you what you are worth. He may have this tightly planned out chronology, but that should be a guideline not a law. The different Star Treks had this overall storyline planned, but even on their down time, they managed to get into some trouble that was both challenging and exciting. My point? Ask your DM for a breather, an adventure where your party can make some easy coin, fight some less important baddie, and still be challenged. And if his timeline has to be shoved back a week.... so what? It's not like if a flood hits your town , that your campaign world will suffer because none of you can swim to a table to role-play that week. And if all your characters have to report to the local mercenary guild to hire yourselves out to earn some well needed dinero, then he might get the hint. ( "King Bubba's royal advisor was kidnapped and he needs our help? Well we'd love to do what we could, but Filippe the elven hairdresser wants us to do his windows and sweep his floors... But , but Filippe is paying us better..." ) I wouldn't go to him en masse to appeal for mo' money, at least not at first. Send one person to state the case one way we have listed. If and when that doesn't work, send person 2 with a second argument, and then person 3, 4, etc... until one of you make your Real-Life Diplomacy check. Of course, you COULD always enlist someone else to play a cleric( to help with healing) or a rogue ( to help with *ahem* money issues ), but that might be another mouth to feed as it were. Or someone could take the Leadership feat and hire a cohort to help out with these issues. However.... It does occur to me that if you do get some or all these issues resolved, that some of your enjoyment might be diminished. Or conversly, if you do manage to make it to that Final Fight with your world's Ultimate BBEG and you defeat him/her/them, that your accomplishment will be all that much greater.
OamuTheMonk 04-04-05, 12:32 AM	I have to be honest, I hadn't given the spellcaster's level much thought--She was sort of a Cold-specialist White Witch sort of deal--I don't play as a spellcaster, so, I confess, I was not really aware of how high a level Cone of Cold is (I failed the save, but I had just downed a Potion of Cure Moderate--the Barbarian saved, half damage--The Sorceror failed his save, and became deceased--and the Rogue and Wizard were both behind Cover), but I can tell you that we were not yet level seven when this occured. She also had a Dire Polar bear as an animal companion/familiar. The more I mention, the more I feel like I'm getting this poor guy in trouble...I'm not sure I wan't to subject him to everyone's indignation...I can tell you that he is an experienced DM (at least 15 years--since at least 2nd edition), and this is by no means a case of him being unfamiliar with the rules. I have to say, the amount of support on our behalf is amazing--we have a game scheduled for April 9, and I'm pretty sure that the events of said game are already planned out--I will definitely give everybody an update after...As I said earlier, we're all kind of hoping for an upturn in our luck at this session. On a side note, I am actually running a parallel game (different setting) with most of the same players, including this DM (we'll call him Mr. X), and I have been attempting to make sure that the wealth by level has been on par (within 1000gp) with the guidelines in the DMG--and I have had no trouble keeping things challenging for everybody.
Cold Napalm 04-04-05, 10:23 PM	Dire polar bear is CR11...the wizard has to have been level 15+ or the DM pure out and out cheated. Cone of cold means at least level 9 caster...but due to the teleport deal mentioned, must be level 15. How did a party of level 6 survive this?!? This should have been a TPK pure and simple since the CR is like almost 3x what the party is. Hell with this combo, I would have ended the party is 3 rounds...cold only spells or no. If I could use other spells, it would have ended in 1 round as you all get horrid wilted.
OamuTheMonk 04-10-05, 12:57 AM	We had our session today, and we seem to be in a slightly better place (both figuratively and literally). We did stall for some regrouping time, and the things we were able to accomplish seemed to make the session a little less lethal. Many of the items that were previously unavailable are no longer so, and while we still have nowhere near the standard amount of wealth, we came away from our last combat with a pretty good chunk of booty (magic items, most of unknown worth, plundered from our fallen enemies). With the little bit of money we had, and some resoursefulness, we were able to be pretty effective (I myself stocked up on potions of Magic Fang, Shield o' Faith, and Mage Armor . Perfect for a monk on a budget.). Still some close calls, though. Our poor sorcerer took a pretty savage hit from a Boneclaw, downing him in the surprise round, and it got pretty dicey. He was at -8 when we got him stable and healed. We met what could be the campaign's BBEG, and it's definitely a situation where it seems that there is no concieveable way we could beat him (He owns his own airship, a flying museum of magical artifacts), which is kind of a downer...It has that videogame feel, where if the bad guy were smart enough to just finish us off now, rather than trying to work us into his master plan somehow, it would already be over. In any case, it seems that our constantly working on a shoestring budget has made us brutal and efficient enough to wipe out targets quickly, before they can pull any shenannigans. Our Rogue went Greater Invisibility sickhouse on like a platoon of Dwarven soldiers, dumping entrails and skull soup all over the place, I smashed open a Large Monstrous Scorpion (like an overgrown lobster) with my bare hands, and some sorry Minotaur caught a Lightning Bolt in the sternum before he could so much as snort. Hopefully we can set up a new HQ in this new town, and maybe cobble together some decent equipment. It seems as though we have turned a corner.
Lobo13 04-10-05, 01:45 AM	Perhaps the DM is doing this for the roleplay. your story doesn't have to be one of sorrow and poverty if your characters can rise above it. definitely use the in character suggestions before mentioning this to your dm. this may be what your dm is looking for, sculpting a story with you of great heroes who have seen the depths of depression, homelessness, being outgunned, outclassed, and outplayed. so wat are ya gonna do about it? i echo a couple of other posters here, i would relish, love, embrace an opportunity to play a character in these circumstances.-Lobo13
OamuTheMonk 04-10-05, 02:10 AM	I'm just glad I've been lucky with the HP rolls. I've been able to soak up damage that would have killed the sorceror...he's had a lot of ones (for HP).
Cold Napalm 04-10-05, 03:26 PM	Perhaps the DM is doing this for the roleplay. your story doesn't have to be one of sorrow and poverty if your characters can rise above it. definitely use the in character suggestions before mentioning this to your dm. this may be what your dm is looking for, sculpting a story with you of great heroes who have seen the depths of depression, homelessness, being outgunned, outclassed, and outplayed. so wat are ya gonna do about it? i echo a couple of other posters here, i would relish, love, embrace an opportunity to play a character in these circumstances.-Lobo13 Which is fine as long as the DM accounts for this lack of EQ by adjusting the CR. Remeber the CR is based on wealth as much as level. So if you have 20% the wealth your suppose to have, you considered 1-2 level lower. This is NOT the time to send a CR 15 + CR 11 critter after the party of level 6. I think the DM might not know how to use effective tactics so he basically just sends more and more powerful stuff.
janusthinker 04-11-05, 05:45 AM	So long as your DM continues in this apparent turn of the corner towards your characters rising from the depths of poverty and being on the run to the heights of heroism, it sounds very cool.... We actually had a part of my group's campaign world basically set up to adventure like this, the magically damaged desert prison continent. To give the flavor of it, the first night on this continent went something like this: "You all wake up in the bowels of the ship. You are manacled. Groggily, you feel arms grasping you and dragging you to the deck. Suddenly, you're in the water, in your manacles. Make a Swim check." As I recall, one person died before reaching shore. Upon reaching shore, many of the prisoners began fighting among themselves as soon as they got the manacles off, and several more died in the first few minutes. One person was on his third character in under an hour. Then, the fights resolved (the weak died), things calmed down, and we met the first natives: Goblins, who offered us primitive stone knives-in exchange for each of our left eyes. Welcome to Korrsk. :devil:
OamuTheMonk 04-11-05, 10:49 PM	Oof! I mean, I guess it could be exciting, but being on my third character in an hour and mutilated doesn't sound like my idea of fun. Tomayto Tomahto. Just out of curiousity, did the DM just have a bunch of random characters rolled up to accomodate the players that were killed off? Did the players have any say in what their characters were like? Or was it just like "Oh no! Kato the Evoker has drowned! Good thing we still have the talents of Katho the Evoker..." I dunno, man, it seems like a lot of DMs are just looking for players to witness their script, rather than looking for active participants in the story...Think I will start a new thread on the subject.
janusthinker 04-12-05, 03:28 AM	The DM didn't have random characters rolled up, but warned people ahead of time exactly what they were getting into, so each of us brought a minimum of two characters to the table, and thirty or forty people got kicked off the boat at a time, so when someone died, you just found another guy down the beach (not clones, mind you). And we didn't get mutilated-we beat the crap out of those goblins and fashioned drinking cups from their skulls. I was just stating that as the first interaction with the natives in order to explain the tone. It really has been a brutal, brutal campaign, but very different and very fun. I suppose I am somewhat biased, because mine is one of only two characters to survive from the initial batch of characters kicked off the boat. Certainly didn't hurt that my character is a jackass cleric who doles out his water- and food-producing spells only to those who are willing to do what he says or are willing to protect his tiny, easily breakable Gnome frame. :devil: Nonetheless, a campaign where simply being alive marks you as a badass is a fun change of pace from the norm. Certainly wouldn't be good all the time, but....
Zee'Tah 04-12-05, 05:24 PM	Tell your spell caster to get the create magic items feat or craft magic arms/armor. This will do three things. First You can sell whatever magic items you don't want and just create a new ones of the same value for no loss of money. Second, any magic items you need will become cheaper since your party can make them yourself. And third you can find other parties of NPC adventurers (in any large city ect.) that might want to buy specific items (possibly at an even lager price gain :) ) I know it is expensive, but this feat will pay off, (especially if you find NPC parties and ask for half the price a head of time). This idea is what my current party caster is doing. It is awesome that our lvl 10 party with average treasure from encounters has an average AC 34 (caster has 36 w/ no spells) because he effectively doubles our treasure loot by selling our equipment to NPC adventurers for just below market price and practically doubling our loot by then making new stuff that we want. --- One side note, next time you play a monk, switch dex and wis for a higher stun DC and the same AC, (and if you needed it for combat finesse, the Book of exalted deeds has something similar but uses wis)