Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 05:38 PM	I'm rolling for this DM, who allowed us this rule: 4d6, drop the lowest, roll 5 times, and you have a free 18 to place. So I roll a 14, 12, 11, ok rolls, nothing spectacular, then I hit a 7. I ask politely if I may re-roll, seeing as how under 10 at the last, represents a serious deficeney. When i argue this with my DM, he goes "people are deficent all the time in real life", to which I counter " true, but D&D isn't real life, and we're supposedly to be playing above-average folks here. It's no fun in the game if my character dies from a mosquito bite due to his 7 Con, or stumbles due to his 7 dex, or speaks moronically due to his 7 int." Was I right in being somewhat upset at being handed such a low stat? And to make it clear, the Dm stated nothing about re-rolls prior to the rolls themselves (the thought hadn't cross my mind yet), I was hoping he'd be civil enough to make a compromise.
Lincoln Hills 05-31-05, 05:45 PM	We need more information to judge. If your DM thinks he can't say, "You see something in the distance," without finishing the sentence with "roll initiative," then yes: you might have a reasonable beef. In a raw hack and slash campaign your only hope would be to sock the stat away in Charisma, on the not-unreasonable grounds that somebody else can do the talkin', and then play a class that doesn't rely on Charisma for anything. If, on the other hand, you're dealing with a campaign in which character is just as important as combat capability, then that 7 is actually a precious thing. I've run games for puny rogues, functionally retarded druids and socially monstrous wizards: I'll tell you right now that a low stat... or, gods help you, even two... tends to make you run a character very differently. It can irritate... but it can also provide enjoyment. (The rest of the party will laugh even while they're making saving throws after your half-orc acts upon the thought, "Button SHINY! I PUSH it!")
Dragon4217 05-31-05, 05:46 PM	There is nothing wrong with a single low stat. In fact, most classes have quite a tolerance for that. Honestly, I think the DM is giving you quite a bit of lenience by letting you have the free 18. Take the 7...it really isn't so bad. Put it in Cha or Wis or something, depending on what you decide to play. I rolled a character and actually got a 5! but he was a warmage, so I put it into wisdom, then I played it as if he actually was oblivious (and also insane...but that's another story) It was actually pretty fun. Well, that's my input.
adrj 05-31-05, 05:46 PM	A 7 is not a horrible stat. It's below normal, but not horrible. Your 7 int character won't be a moron. He might not have the best vocabulary (he might not even know the word "vocabulary" ;) ) but will make himself understood quite well. He might have to ask people to dumb it down a little on occasion, but that's not too bad. What kind of character are you planning on playing? Does your arcane caster need a high strength or wisdom? Does your fighter need a high intelligence, wisdom or charisma? One bad score does not make a bad character, especially when the DM is giving you a free 18. Make the best of it.
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 05:49 PM	Respect intended, but I don't want to play an idiot, when I play D&D i like to play paramount of strength, agility, intelligence, personality and wisdom. Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin or Cleric, respectively. :) I also dislike the idea of "dump stats" i like my characters to be balanced, with 1 or 2 above average stats (14-15) , but his method was to allow an 18, so i rolled with that. I'm just saying he was relatively unclear prior and that isn't unreasonable of me to feel a bit of resentment at being told that out of the blue. i've played a fighter with 13 str, 14 con, 14 dex, 12 int, 10 wis and 11 cha. Is that godlike? no, is it overpowered? i'd guess not. I don't mind playing a character like that as long as my "class stats" have some oomph to them.
DM Zoc 05-31-05, 05:58 PM	Respect intended, but I don't want to play an idiot, when I play D&D i like to play paramount of strength, agility, intelligence, personality and wisdom. Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin or Cleric, respectively. :) Right, but the free 18 guarantees that you're the paramount in your chosen area. It's unreasonable to expect to be superior in every category, and every default-numbers stat method includes at least one 8 (which is often placed in a stat which is further reduced due to racial modifiers, such as the case for an half-orc monk or halfling spellcaster). Personally, I enjoy having at least one very low stat (4 str for the wizard, 6 wis for the fighter, 6 con for the rogue, 5 int for the sorcerer), and just accept that you'll never make a contribution to that area of play (don't expect the wizard to climb a rope. period). At the very least, it gives a good reason to work in a team. It's also good for comic relief when the situation requires you to do something that you have a good chance of failing at, and makes it that much more spectacular and enjoyable when you succeed.
Rntaboy 05-31-05, 06:06 PM	I had a great character with an int of 4, cha of 6, and wis of 8. Quit whining.
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 06:06 PM	Ok, maybe you like being hindered, but I don't. When i roll a particularily high stat, i place it in another score to offset any stereotypes the character may have, an 18 wisdom for my fighter, more likely intelligence. And as I said...are 11's, 12's and 14's THAT superior? Those are good, but hardly anything to write home about. Oh yeah, and you needn't have an abysmal stat to enjoy good roleplaying, I know this, and you should know this too. :cool: As a side note, the same DM was allowing races of up to +3 LA to be played, so i figure the fact that picking something normal/average like a human doesn't mean i have to be a weakling.
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 06:10 PM	hey Rntaboy, just because you were shafted, doesn't mean everyone else has to bend over too
DDogwood 05-31-05, 06:17 PM	Respect intended, but I don't want to play an idiot, when I play D&D i like to play paramount of strength, agility, intelligence, personality and wisdom. Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin or Cleric, respectively. :) I agree with the above posters - I think you should be creative with the low stat, and have fun with it. That said, you seem to be really set against having such a low stat. There are a couple of options available to you: 1) Play a Druid or a Sor/Wiz character, who can replace the low stat with a better one via Wild Shape or Polymorph 2) Be a race that gets a penalty to that stat (as big as possible!) and get yourself killed that way - e.g. an Elf Wizard with a Con of 5. If you can get yourself killed before the party can resurrect you, you'll get to roll a new character and re-roll those stats. 3) Get a really low Wis or Int score (5 or less) through racial modifiers, and use "roleplaying" as your excuse to get the whole party killed. Then you will either get booted from the game, or the players will ally with you requesting that your low stat get boosted. 4) Convince your DM to let you play a race with no Con score. Then your 7 won't hurt you. I want to repeat that your other stats are good enough to let you be a paragon of your chosen type. I think a half-orc Barbarian with a Charisma of 5 could be a blast to play - you could say that he would normally have a better Charisma score, but his supernaturally poor hygiene repels everyone. Or, a horribly clumsy Cleric (there was one in the basic campaign in the Neverwinter Nights computer game) who always knocks things over and runs into people. Clerics are so powerful that the AC penalty won't actually hurt you that much (and you can make yourself flat-footed and argue that your AC actually goes up)
Draco Strang 05-31-05, 06:20 PM	Respect intended, but I don't want to play an idiot, when I play D&D i like to play paramount of strength, agility, intelligence, personality and wisdom. Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin or Cleric, respectively. :) So you're basically saying that you don't want to be challenged by playing a character that somehow has some sort of deficiency. Afraid of a little roleplaying? That's fine. Just ask your DM for a 28 point buy or something. If you're sacrificing the free 18 for it, then I don't see how that could be an unreasonable request.
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 06:24 PM	"Afraid of a little roleplaying" Anyone can roleplay with any stats, any race, any class. You don't have to suffer in one area, and play the role of the individual who overcomes it to have fun. This is not disputed.Please don't say things that sound out of place in a discussion when the point has been conceeded. But I at least like to play a character with good all around stats, and slightly better class stats. I could have played the Drow Rogue with 18 int and 20 dex, Half-Dragon/Half-Orc Barbarian with 28 STR and Immunity to Fire, or Aasimar Paladin with 17 wis and 20 cha, but I didn't. I just picked a typical Human Fighter, and having stats above 10, most of which top at 14, doesn't seem so out of bounds for me. :rolleyes: and Ddogwood, i'm familiar with Linu from NWN :teach:
Super Guy 05-31-05, 06:36 PM	Well, the question was, do we think it is fair. I think it's quite fair. I'm actually usually a little repulsed by games where characters are way above 10 in more than half of their stats. It makes it less real. I'm not saying DnD is realistic, however, there's sort of a real in an unreal world. For example, you say the Wizard of Oz is fine, even though we know it's not realistic. However, if the Wicked Witch flew around upside down and Munchkins randomly exploded and repieced, fine as ever, you'd say "How unrealistic!" High attribute characters sort of take that 'real in the unreal' away. We have one DM that really likes high stats. He's only a some-time DM, and he gave us 6d6, reroll any 3. I almost died with scorn. By the way, he's also the powergamer and munchkin-wannabe. Our other DM uses generally 25 or 28 point buy. So, in my opinion, no. It was in your DM's complete right, and I'm surprised you've never had a sub-standard stat before, really... My current character's best stat is a 14, worst is a 10 (25 pt buy), and now has a crippled hand from unlucky combat in a no/low-magic campaign. Crippled right hand. He fires a bow when he's not in melee. No way to heal that hand. He's also currently one of my favorite characters ever, because he's not some boring super-hero, he has weaknesses that I need to work around.
downtown_brad 05-31-05, 06:38 PM	You asked for a reroll, the DM said "no". case closed.
fallabel 05-31-05, 06:40 PM	Well, look at it this way: 10 is an average score for any ability. You've got a 14, which is 4 above average. If you're ok with deviating from the mean there, then what's wrong with a 7? (3 below average). As long as the average of your scores is at least 12, I'd say that you're appropriately "heroic". Also, if you're a fighter, then just stick the 7 in int/wis/char. Even if you don't prefer to do that, it's not worth causing an argument over.
Centauri 05-31-05, 06:52 PM	If you're not willing to deal with the occassional under-10 roll, why roll in the first place?
Mike W 05-31-05, 06:53 PM	PrinceAzer - Why did you pose the question "Is it reasonable to play acharacters with stats under 10?" if you are only going to insist that it is not? What possible end could you be working towards by coming on these boards, asking that question, and then disregarding (or, in one case, actively insulting) everyone who answers it in a way with which you disagree? What, exactly, do you expect us to do for you? Should we form an intervention group and force the DM at swordpoint to give you a re-roll? Should we, perhaps, donate our character's less-used stat points to you? Yes, it is perfectly reasonable to have a character with a low stat or two. No, you were not right in being upset over getting a low stat. All kinds of people have been telling you that a low stat is not the end of the world, and everything you have responded with sounds, to me, like "But I don't WANT a low stat! I don't! Waah! :tantrum: ". The first two posts, I figured were maybe just me being snarky or something, but that's pretty much the tone I've seen you present throughout. Have a :tissue: and move on.
downtown_brad 05-31-05, 06:57 PM	Mike W wins the thread. :)
danielinthewolvesden 05-31-05, 07:00 PM	Are you starting at level 1? I do think that a 7 in any stat- other than CHA, is a bit hard. But at 4th, you can make it an 8, and 8 is what I consider about right for a heroic character to have as his lowest stat. Personally, i think every good Hero should have an 8 or a 9, something to roleplay. You can play with a 7 as follows- Fighter with a low CHA or Wis- foolhardy. In case of WIS, be sure and get Iron Will. Wizard with a CHA or Str of 7- and get a larger familiar to carry stuff for you. Dwarf fighter who is ugly and surly, with a CHA of 5. Monk with a CHA of 7- I played one of these- he kept annoying folks by asking if they had reached "spiritual inner awareness" yet. Drud with a CHA of 7 who doesn't deal with "two legs" very well. Barb with an Int of 7. Mostly you have to dump CHA. Soooo- make an annoying personality, add in a stupid catchphrase and a bad personal habit- and have fun with it.
krichaiushii 05-31-05, 07:05 PM	If the possibility of a low stat bugs you that much, do as Draco Strang suggests and use point buy - as you control the numbers, you need never fear having too low a stat. Another option is to ask your DM to provide an array of six scores, which you get to place as you see fit.
Zeteg 05-31-05, 07:06 PM	One single low stat isn't that bad, I agree with everyone else. If you had two stupid stats, then you should probably reroll. My last character at level one had the following stats, all rolled fairly... My DM was like, "whaaaaaaaa!" heh. Str: 15 Dex: 17 Con: 17 Int: 18 Wis: 17 Chr: 4 So, I was an ugly kineticist that didn't know how to talk to people without offending them. Well, somehow people still saw eye-to-eye with me ;) The seven really isn't that horrible.
mcnoo 05-31-05, 07:11 PM	Have a :tissue: and move on. I somehow doubt a quick one off the wrist is a solution to the problem here.
Callista 05-31-05, 07:13 PM	Of course it's reasonable!! A 7 isn't bad at all, and the other stats (especially that 18) will make up for it easily. Here's how to RP it: 7 STR: Scrawny sort of guy. Probably doesn't work out, or spends all his time doing non-physical things. Probably small for his race. Classes to try: Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid. RP: How does he compensate for low strength? Intelligence? Charisma? Weaknesses to watch out for: Low combat damage; compensate with sneak attacks or spells. 7 DEX: Clumsy and awkward--kind of like a teenager going through a growth spurt. Classes to try: Fighter (non-ranged and heavily armored), Druid (Wildshape!), Cleric (maybe). RP: Is he ashamed of being clumsy? Maybe he even enjoys making others laugh and stumbles on purpose... Weaknesses to watch out for: Ranged weapon use and lack of a DEX bonus to AC. Compensate by wearing heavy armor and using melee weapons. 7 CON: Weakling--catches a cold at the drop of a hat, probably has a mild chronic illness or barely survived a serious illness. Classes to try: Don't. You need the HP, whatever class you take. 7 INT: Mentally slow, though not an idiot. Would've ended up held back a grade or two in our world, though a high school diploma wouldn't be out of reach. Classes to try: Anything but Wizard or Rogue, or anything you want good amounts of skill points for. RP: Make up for your low intelligence with WIS (common sense) or CHA (people skills) or sheer fighting power (typical "dumb brute"). Weaknesses to watch out for: Knowledge checks and skill points will be low. Your low intelligence may get your party into trouble. Compensate by taking a non-leadership position in the party. 7 WIS: Unwise, impractical, gullible, oblivious. You can go a lot of directions with this, but this person simply doesn't have much common sense. Classes to try: Barbarian, Fighter, Wizard, Sorcerer. RP: You can easily be talked into things. You may have a temper. You may have slight mental illness. You don't notice the world around you. Weaknesses: You are easily bluffed. Your Spot and Listen checks will suffer--don't try to scout for the party. 7 CHA: Shy, bad langugage skills, maybe a speech impediment, bad personal habits or plain features, or a generally annoying nature. Classes to try: Anything but Sorcerer, Paladin, and Rogue. Weaknesses: You will have a hard time interacting with people. Don't try to lead the party. If it means anything, I've played characters with low stats before; they're not that bad. Anything but a low CON can be easily overcome...
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 07:17 PM	PrinceAzer - Why did you pose the question "Is it reasonable to play acharacters with stats under 10?" if you are only going to insist that it is not? What possible end could you be working towards by coming on these boards, asking that question, and then disregarding (or, in one case, actively insulting) everyone who answers it in a way with which you disagree? What, exactly, do you expect us to do for you? Should we form an intervention group and force the DM at swordpoint to give you a re-roll? Should we, perhaps, donate our character's less-used stat points to you? Yes, it is perfectly reasonable to have a character with a low stat or two. No, you were not right in being upset over getting a low stat. All kinds of people have been telling you that a low stat is not the end of the world, and everything you have responded with sounds, to me, like "But I don't WANT a low stat! I don't! Waah! :tantrum: ". The first two posts, I figured were maybe just me being snarky or something, but that's pretty much the tone I've seen you present throughout. Have a :tissue: and move on. If you're going to disseminate my post to win applaud and cheer, you could at least spell my name correctly. Or were you speaking to the invisible poster, PrinceAzer? You should also take your head out of your :censored: and stop distorting things WAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of context. If feeling that one should play a certain way doesn't mesh with you it isn't crying , by the same token, if you were defending me, you'd find an equal insult for the DM, would you not? You sir, need lessons in sincerity and tact. :)
Super Guy 05-31-05, 07:21 PM	You failed to mention Bards. It'd be disastrous to play a low Cha Bard, and I am extremely loathe to play a low Int Bard. And I like moderate Strength Bards, of course, because I want to be badass and cool when I play a bard, not a weakling that can sing :D
75RD Drum Clip 05-31-05, 07:40 PM	a 7, if your not playing a bard, or sorcerer, I would dump the 7 in Charisma.
Callista 05-31-05, 07:51 PM	You failed to mention Bards. It'd be disastrous to play a low Cha Bard, and I am extremely loathe to play a low Int Bard. And I like moderate Strength Bards, of course, because I want to be badass and cool when I play a bard, not a weakling that can sing :DUmm... whoops :blush: Yes. Super Guy is right... I completely forgot about Bards. Serves me right for having my PHB in my dorm room instead of the computer lab! The high-DEX bard with some archery feats is also a decent possibility, of course. As is a pure diplomat (INT/WIS/CHA), IF it's the right sort of campaign.
snowlynx 05-31-05, 07:58 PM	Hm. A seven is stats isn't so bad....consider how this disadvantage becomes a opportunity to further develop your character. Your stasts aren't bad overall, and the only way I would justify a reroll these stats was if I found out the other characters all had multiple 16's, 17's, and above. I wouldn't auto-place the stat in charisma; I guess I'd think about where I wanted to be weak (and what works with the character.) I had a character with a strength of 5.....this was fine; I used summoning spells, for example.
Super Guy 05-31-05, 08:04 PM	Sorry for pointing it out Callista, I just really like Bards :P
fallabel 05-31-05, 08:19 PM	Oh, here's an idea. Be an Apostle of Peace, and put the 7 in strength!
Draco Strang 05-31-05, 09:07 PM	I believe I mentioned point buy earlier? If this 7 has your jockeys in a knot, then approach your DM and ask him if you could do a standard 28 point buy in exchange for losing the 18. You could have 13s and 14s across the board, and be Slightly Better Than Average Man.
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 09:11 PM	Perhaps you could similarily use your point buy method to raise your charisma to be Man with a sense of humor
Draco Strang 05-31-05, 09:19 PM	Perhaps you could similarily use your point buy method to raise your charisma to be Man with a sense of humor Sorry, he's already part of the Just-Us League. I'm Captain Understatement. :rimshot:
The Listener 05-31-05, 09:49 PM	A 7 doesn't seem to be too bad, I'd suck it up, plop it down somewhere and call it a character choice. You might have fun RPing the "lacking" part of yourself. All heros were lacking in some area.
fallabel 05-31-05, 10:13 PM	No no no, he clearly only wants to roleplay the "statistically improbable overpowered superhero".
PrinceAzar 05-31-05, 10:34 PM	No no no, he clearly doesn't make assumptions like other posters here might do ;) MAN, you idiots still don't get it, having an average of 12-13 in scores is not a superhero :rolleyes:
Draco Strang 05-31-05, 10:38 PM	MAN, you idiots still don't get it, having an average of 12-13 in scores is not a superhero :rolleyes: Wow....I think you managed to make like 50 enemies in one fell swoop. Ok, ,so if you could have your ideal stats, what would they be? Just ask your DM for those. What...are we talking like 18 16 14 14 13 12? Is that what you're after? Seems like it. We get it pretty well. You think a 7 is totally and completely unacceptable for any heroes coming out of the gate. You want an awesome stat, two or three really good stats, and the others to be slightly above average. Right? Then just put them on your sheet and call it a day.
Siduakal 05-31-05, 10:47 PM	I want 6 18s.. Fear the super hero. I want to have 2 characters. The 6 18s Human who can do anything.. and the 6 6s Goblin who follows him around.
weasel fierce 05-31-05, 10:50 PM	The best heroes are the ones with a flaw. I'd say a stat of 3-4 should be rerollable, but a 7 ? Nope. It just makes the character more interesting. For DM's that think its horrid to burden a player with a low stat, I recommend the following method for character creation: Each player picks 2 stats that are good, these both start at 18. For everything else, roll 1D4+14. This will give everyone the character they want.
wonlee76 05-31-05, 10:56 PM	So you have one stat that is under 10 and the rest of your stats above 10 and the DM is giving you a freebie 18 and you think this is unreasonable and merits a re-roll? Here's a compromise I would suggest if you feel your PC should not have a "dump" stat in any shape or form. Offer the DM that you don't want the freebie 18 and drop it to a 15 in exchange of changing the 7 to a 10. Then you have no truely bad stats and don't have to try to RP a deficient stat. Otherwise suck it up and deal with the 7 since your DM did set forth the ground rules and you did not roll that horribly overall.
steventirey1985 05-31-05, 11:16 PM	I don't see anything wrond with having a low (9 or less) stat. Personally, I reroll my stats (with DM's permission) if I don't have a low stat. It adds a little flavor to the game if roleplayed right.
fallabel 05-31-05, 11:20 PM	With an 18, 7, 14, 12 and 11, your average stat is 12.4. You didn't say what the 6th stat was, but 12.4 seems like a reasonable average, given that a commoner's average stat is somewhere between 10 and 11. What average were you hoping for? 14?
Dragontooth 05-31-05, 11:36 PM	Stop playing D&D if your going to cry, and get angry over a 7 stat roll. Sheesh some people need to grow up and quit acting like a freaking baby.
steventirey1985 05-31-05, 11:39 PM	Though I don't know PrinceAzar personally, I think his problem is that he is focused on the rollplaying, not the roleplaying.
Stafir Ortnev 06-01-05, 12:17 AM	Actually I think his real problem is based on the fact that he did not ask this quesiton to get an answer. But instead to create a disruption..but thats just me. Reading how he's been answering. A 7 is fine..I have a char with an 8...he still steals the show sometimes (litterally....sneaky lil high dex thief). If you want the unreasonable part. The unreasonable part is not accepting a char just because a stat is low. That is the unreasonable part of this thread.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:22 AM	Actually I think his real problem is based on the fact that he did not ask this quesiton to get an answer. But instead to create a disruption..but thats just me. Reading how he's been answering. You're damn right it's just you, everyone here likes to play cripples, degenerates and otherwise impeded people in one area. You still don't get it do you, in a system where he allows +3 LA races and twinked out feats and what not, i just want decent stats, stats above 10, stats with an average of 12-13, it is not so difficult a thing to ask. When I play D&D, i like to play people with heroic qualities. Perhaps you should re-write D&D, making low dice rolls mandatory, but I enjoy the freedom of this game, and play it for the epic adventures, which means having highly capable characters.
Mike W 06-01-05, 12:46 AM	If you're going to disseminate my post to win applaud and cheer, you could at least spell my name correctly. Or were you speaking to the invisible poster, PrinceAzer? Now, for that, I apologize. This is the first time I've misspelled someone's name on the boards, and I am genuinely embarassed. For what it's worth, though, I wasn't intentionally misspelling it. 'Azar' is just very close to 'Azer', and I wasn't proof-reading as thoroughly as I should have. :surrender You should also take your head out of your :censored: and stop distorting things WAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of context. If feeling that one should play a certain way doesn't mesh with you it isn't crying , by the same token, if you were defending me, you'd find an equal insult for the DM, would you not? I'm not distorting things, I am presenting my opinion of them. There is a difference, albeit in this case a small one. But I was not intentionally misrepresenting your position, merely stating how I saw it. I doubt any sane reader would look at my post and assume that what I had written was anything other than hyperbole. I would certainly attempt to find an insult for your DM, should I decide that the situation warranted one. If you would like, I could even bang one out for you in my spare time. But I would feel decidedly silly doing so, as he is well within his rights to insist that you stick to the stat-generation system to which you agreed when you began, well, generating stats. I generally give my players a choice between point buy and rolling, but once the stats have been rolled, they may not decide that point buy would have been the better way to go, unless their character meets the the DMG definition of an unplayable character (which is, if I recall correctly, a character with no stat higher than 13, or a character with an overall negative ability score modifier, before racial bonuses). Your character however, will be fine, and probably even flourish. You sir, need lessons in sincerity and tact. :) Oh, I was being sincere enough. Tact, on the other hand, is something on which I am working. I would submit, however, that recommending that I remove my head from my :censored: is not particularly tactful, either, although quite possibly warranted given the situation. Finally, since I appear to have genuinely offended you, I do apologize - I may have been a bit harsh, and probably could have made my point in a slightl more constructive manner. I do, however, stand by my stated position. Good luck in your game!
CycloneRanger 06-01-05, 12:52 AM	I think the general consensus here, PrinceAzar, is that a 7 is not unreasonable. It is perfectly within your DMs rights to dictate that you must keep what you rolled, if the rest of your gaming group agrees with it. By all accounts, your DM has been exceedingly generous already. I won't bring up the tales of the ridiculously gimped characters I have played (and enjoyed) in the past, but I will say that you have hardly been forced to play a weakling. In short, it is unreasonable to complain that you have a 7 for a stat. Part of the fun of D&D for many people, and, it would seem, for the rest of your group, is to find ways to work around flaws and to play new and interesting characters. Play the hand that is dealt you, as it were. Everyone else in your group has, unless I missed something. One other thing... You should also take your head out of your *** Perhaps you could similarily use your point buy method to raise your charisma to be Man with a sense of humor No no no, he clearly doesn't make assumptions like other posters here might do MAN, you idiots still don't get it, having an average of 12-13 in scores is not a superhero You're damn right it's just you, In the words of a wise man, PrinceAzar, You sir, need lessons in sincerity and tact.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:06 AM	I wasn't the one in the wrong, I had every right to respond back. When you learn to not take so opressive a stance, please do come back and turn statements back to the original posters. Simply having larger numbers does not make you right, does not make youe view the correct one.I am surely glad the majority of posters here don't encompass a wide spectrum of D&D players worldwide... otherwise we'd have all sort of inflexible rulings which would hamper character creation greatly. And quite right, let's focus and shift more on the faults of the poster, rather than the method. It's far easier to poke holes in an individual than focus on the issue at hand. If you're looking to shatter my image, you won't win, you don't deserve the petty pleasure. Regardless of what I say, does not detract from his wrongdoings. Please go practice on posters with intellects similar to yourself, then come back here ;) And lastly, In short, it is unreasonable to complain that you have a 7 for a stat. Part of the fun of D&D for many people, and, it would seem, for the rest of your group, is to find ways to work around flaws and to play new and interesting characters. I am not many people. My group has no significant flaws, no stats under 10, in fact, none under 13. Please think more before you wish to give me advice.
alecthemad 06-01-05, 01:11 AM	I can understand your position regarding the 7 stat, but I would just play the character. My current character is 16, 9, 18, 9, 17, 9 which fits in your 12-13 stat average. But it seems that you do not want the average to be 12-13 you want the minimum to be so. In that case I think you just need to find a group that loves to powergame and will let you have that 18, 12, 18, 13, 18, 14 character you so desire.
CannonFodder2244 06-01-05, 01:12 AM	I played a Half-orc barbarian with these stats: STR:16 DEX:12 CON:16 INT: 7 WIS: 11 CHA: 5 And he was fun as heck. In fact, he was comic relief a lot of the time. I just played him as the world's largest retarded child who could be gulled by darn near anyone. He had no real sense of self, and not much of a sense of self protection, so he just acted like a golden retriever with a greataxe. He'd repeat things people said, and he'd just stare at the wizard when she spoke. When the rogue wanted to kill goblins, he'd yell "KILLLLLL GOBLINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" And, he'd just be really dumb. I miss that char. Or take my wizard's starting stats STR: 7 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 9 CHA 10 The only reason she isn't still around is that she kamikazied an ogre mage and put a fireball at he own feet. Sure, her owl could lift almost as much as she could, and she was forgetful and ditzy, but her know-it-all intelligence shined through... to various degrees of effectiveness. A seven is very playable, especially with an 18 to balance it.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:14 AM	Did i saw i desired 18, 18? The Dm gives out one free 18, fine, but i'm not complaining if my other rolls are 11, 12 and such, even 10 WHICH I ROLLED, but i would expect my stats to at least be 10. Note, 10 is AVERAGE, 10 is you and me, 10 is the man down the street, 10 is the man who mows your lawn, and 10 is the man who delivers your newspaper. I don't mind having that.
CannonFodder2244 06-01-05, 01:17 AM	Everyone has weaknesses. Make the most of them. Deal. You're blowing this way out of proportion and running headlong into munchkinville.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:20 AM	I can't beleive what i'm hearing. Yes...a 10 is so munchkinized, i see it now...my amazing build with 11's, 10's and 12's. I am no munchkin, please do not assume as such off of one topic i make, if you have read my other character builds, my other campaigns, you would not call me a munchkin. :mad:
alecthemad 06-01-05, 01:30 AM	Did i saw i desired 18, 18? The Dm gives out one free 18, fine, but i'm not complaining if my other rolls are 11, 12 and such, even 10 WHICH I ROLLED, but i would expect my stats to at least be 10. Note, 10 is AVERAGE, 10 is you and me, 10 is the man down the street, 10 is the man who mows your lawn, and 10 is the man who delivers your newspaper. I don't mind having that. You see you are mistaking average as normal rather than the proper statistical meaning. The average of 10 means that your newspaper guy could be all 7's while your lawn guy is all 13's. Now based upon the information you gave on your stats: 18, 14, 12 ,11 ,10 ,7 your average is 12 exactly. So based upon your requirements of stats in the 12-13 range this character should be very acceptable. Now quit being a cry baby and play the game.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:35 AM	I'd gladly ditch the 18 to raise the 7, in place of a close stat to 12, but the DM does not allow point purchase methods. My point being, a stat under 10 does not necessetate good roleplaying, nor should I take it, because "other people" find it funny. Understood?
magicchupacabra 06-01-05, 01:36 AM	Reasonable yes it is. One thing the others fail to realize that the game is ment to be fun. If you arnt happy with your PC you arnt going to have fun. The suggestion to drop the 18 3 points to raise the 7 up by 3 shouldnt be a difficult one. Sure you dont get an 18 but you dont deal with a stat below 10. Just be reasonable about it and explain why you want to do that to your DM. If all else fails though, dump the 18 in str and the 7 in wisdom and rename your character Leroy Jenkins. If you reconize that name you'll understand the rest of the process for either killing off the PC or by making an entertaining character :D And to think, I"m just trying to figure out how to cause the laptops being brought to the game to explode so that they cant be used anymore. I wish I just had a low stat as a complaint. Feel lucky in that aspect. edit: Ok you posted right before I did. Just try the second method then. google the name and WoW and you'll find the answer to the problem. muhahaha.
allenchan 06-01-05, 01:39 AM	I love playing with one stat under 10. When I DM, i use stat arrays, so everyone has one 18 and one 8. It gives every character a strength and weakness. Only way not to is to have racial modifiers (ie, a dwarf puts his 8 in con for 10. but why would he do that when he could have a 20 con! ) sometimes, the 8 becomes a 6 (dwarf uses cha as dump stat). but its been great so far :P
Mike W 06-01-05, 01:43 AM	I am surely glad the majority of posters here don't encompass a wide spectrum of D&D players worldwide... otherwise we'd have all sort of inflexible rulings which would hamper character creation greatly. Woah, hold on there. Who's being inflexible here, again? Your DM: Here's an 18. Now roll your other 5 stats, and let's get this show on the road. You: But I rolled a 7! It is totally unreasonable to ask me to play a heroic character with a single below average stat. I refuse, and am going to go complain to a message board full of people! *later* What? They dare to disagree with my assessment of the situation?! No matter! I will dig my heels in and berate them for not understanding my plight. *begins foaming at the mouth*. Yes, I see now, your DM is obviously at fault. I withdraw my earlier apology, the one where I thought I might have been to harsh. If anything, had I been harsher, perhaps I could have simply driven you from the boards. It might have been better for everyone involved - you are obviously are not here to discuss the situation, but were simply hoping to hear that your DM is a jackbooted nazi heck-bent on giving your fun a good kicking in the teeth, followed perhas by a metaphorical burning of all of your books, where your books represent the happiness you have strived so long to achieve. This not being the case, I'm not sure what you're sticking around for. The sheer joy of this rediculous upstream battle against sense, perhaps? By the way, the idea that you are a munchkin is not based on your desire for 10's or better - it is instead based on your idea that a character with a single, slightly suboptimal stat is completely unplayable and ought to be dragged out into the street and shot.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:44 AM	Who's Leroy Jenkins? :confused:
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:49 AM	Oh...so because one who is not playing my character, controlling my character, dictating my character's history decides that having a sub-decent stat and I dislike this, still makes me inflexible. Right. As I said, perhaps you all wish to have a character with one or more stats which sink below 10, that's your problem, have fun if you wish. My preference is to play with 10's at least, and be ok in all areas, while good in a few (class selection) Your cries of "munchkin" "powergamer" are still misplaced, wether you want to accept wanting to have a stat over 5 is normal, or not.
75RD Drum Clip 06-01-05, 01:51 AM	Prince, I think the character is more than playable, but if your not happy with it don't waste your time here, take it up with your DM. It's a game, you could always roll up another set of stats, unless your DM is forcing you to take the stats in which case the problems shifts to him, not you.
Tenzhi 06-01-05, 02:09 AM	You don't have to suffer in one area, and play the role of the individual who overcomes it to have fun. Nor does one have to have stats of at least 10 to have fun. Hence the answer to your original question "Is it reasonable to play characters with stats under 10?" is, as already stated a number of times: Yes. Even in a game with LA+3 vorpal tarrasque-elf half-bunnies that get one free stat of 101 it is reasonable to have a stat under 10. Yes...a 10 is so munchkinized, i see it now...my amazing build with 11's, 10's and 12's. An inability to accept an ability score with a negative modifier is, in fact, munchkinized. Maybe not min/maxing but that's not exactly the same, as min/maxers specifically choose "dump stats" for low ability scores.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 02:12 AM	The problem with "dump stats" is that they largely negate any future chance for that class/character to explore in other areas, be it class options, or roleplaying hooks. Some min/maxers rarely think ahead when they choose a stat to be low, such as Charisma or Wisdom. The reprecussions of having a character who isn't somewhat decent at talking his way out, or knowing a bit of information doesn't hit them till later.
CycloneRanger 06-01-05, 02:21 AM	I wasn't the one in the wrong, I had every right to respond back. Being correct, in your own view, does not excuse rude behavior. Nor does placing a smilie at the end of each insult. When you learn to not take so opressive a stance, please do come back and turn statements back to the original posters. Simply having larger numbers does not make you right, does not make youe view the correct one.I am surely glad the majority of posters here don't encompass a wide spectrum of D&D players worldwide... otherwise we'd have all sort of inflexible rulings which would hamper character creation greatly. What does this mean? Is this directed at me? I am genuinely confused here. Please go practice on posters with intellects similar to yourself, then come back here Before I respond, I would ask if this statement was directed at me. You seem to be referencing my post in the rest of your post, so I must question whether I am the "you" in your statement. [Edited for content]
Tenzhi 06-01-05, 02:23 AM	The problem with "dump stats" is that they largely negate any future chance for that class/character to explore in other areas, be it class options, or roleplaying hooks. Unless you're the only character in the party that's generally not a problem. The nature of classes is such that they lend themselves well to specialization, and the nature of parties is such that they typically include a variety of characters. Of course, in the long run it's generally not a big problem anyway as a -1 or -2 penalty is pretty small in the scheme of things.
Lord Gwydion 06-01-05, 02:33 AM	The problem with "dump stats" is that they largely negate any future chance for that class/character to explore in other areas, be it class options, or roleplaying hooks. Some min/maxers rarely think ahead when they choose a stat to be low, such as Charisma or Wisdom. The reprecussions of having a character who isn't somewhat decent at talking his way out, or knowing a bit of information doesn't hit them till later. First of all, low stats are just as good at providing roleplaying hooks as high stats. In fact, I find it easier to roleplay a character with strengths and weaknesses. Probably why I like Spiderman better than Superman. Spiderman has strengths and weaknesses to his character and his powers. Without kryptonite around, nothing stops Superman. And how is having ONE bad stat out of six preventing the character from branching out? Put the 7 in Strength, start as a Rogue, and multiclass into Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Bard, Cleric, Monk or Ranger and you'll be fine. [Unless you try to turn that character into a melee tank...] A Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Paladin based around ranged combat could also work, as would a Rogue/Barbarian who uses the bonus Str from Rage just to eliminate the penalties to Str. while sneak attacking. Are the last three sub-optimal? Maybe, but they are all playable. Or play an Elf Cleric with the 7 in Dex, modified by racial mods to 9. Clerics need Dex least of all the stats, so use Elf to make it not so bad. Or, since your DM is allowing +3 LA templates and races, find one to play that raises the 7 up to at least a 10 if you hate it so much. Or finally, why not just give it a try? You mentioned in a post WAY back near the beginning that you like to play characters that go against type, like the high Int Fighter. So why not play against type with the low Cha Paladin? Or the low Dex diplo-Rogue? In the immortal words of Sam-I-Am, "Try it, try it. And you may [like it]. Try it and you may, I say."
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 02:39 AM	I just wanted to say, for those who didn't lower themeslves to insults or snide comments against me, no matter how obvious or subtle, I am thankful. To the above poster, the reason I picked Human Fighter was purely one of flavor, i realize other races make better fighters, but I didn't choose them because having the race suit the class didn't make sense to me.
The Man from Uncle 06-01-05, 03:00 AM	Thank god I got to write in this thread before it got closed down! PrinceAzar. There is a guy called 75RD Drum Clip who is, by general consensus, a serious powergamer (sorry drum old buddy, but by general consensus you are) and even he says a 7 is playable. That means you represent an amazingly small fraction of gamers worldwide if you think you are being hard done by. If you REALLY REALLY REALLY can't handle it though. Go for a beer or something with the DM and approach him with a line of argument founded on the relative stats of the group, and how a 7 is comparatively limiting in regards to the half dozen PrCs you have in mind. If you act pathetic enough (and I do think you're up to it) and you complain in the utterly hilarious way that you have done here, you might find that he simply doesn't care enough to enforce the 7. Don't make it the first topic of discussion though. Start off on something that you can both agree on (past adventures, great characters, funny situations) then, once you are both in the beer based comfort zone mention how upsetting getting a 7 is and how, as a friend, it would be nice if he let you change it.
CycloneRanger 06-01-05, 03:01 AM	We need to get a few things straight. PrinceAzar, your question has been answered at least twenty times by now, by nearly as many different people. If you simply disregard the overwhelming number of people who disagree with you, then you may do so. However, I am reminded of an old truism... "If everyone around you is an idiot, chances are it's not them." As I recall, you have already called all of us idiots. I will leave you to make the connection. Secondly, you are essentially arguing that it is unfair to force a player to play using the stats he rolled. This is just not true. If the rest of the players in your group have no problem with playing characters as they are rolled, then you must either accept that rule or leave the group. Since you have not once mentioned another player disagreeing with the rule, I see no reason to believe that any of them do. It may not be scientific, but if you are the only person in your group who is not having fun, you are, by definition, wrong. I just wanted to say, for those who didn't lower themeslves to insults or snide comments against me, no matter how obvious or subtle, I am thankful. I wish I could say the same from the other side of this debate.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 03:03 AM	If you REALLY REALLY REALLY can't handle it though. Go for a beer or something with the DM and approach him with a line of argument founded on the relative stats of the group, and how a 7 is comparatively limiting in regards to the half dozen PrCs you have in mind. If you act pathetic enough (and I do think you're up to it) and you complain in the utterly hilarious way that you have done here, you might find that he simply doesn't care enough to enforce the 7. Don't make it the first topic of discussion though. Start off on something that you can both agree on (past adventures, great characters, funny situations) then, once you are both in the beer based comfort zone mention how upsetting getting a 7 is and how, as a friend, it would be nice if he let you change it. I'm sorry, perhaps you were speaking of yourself? Would you care to speak from experience here? I also don't drink, the closest thing to getting him in a comparitive lull would be to drug his food, and i'm fresh out of bentamazine or ketamine. :) Though the basic idea (latter half) seems good advice all the same.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 03:07 AM	You are by definition, WRONG You're correct in regards where things went smootly, however, if you did read the rest of my team (and the half-dragon is a brass btw) you see that the team all have stats above 15, which is pretty good, I know this, you know this. HOWEVER, asking to be able to keep up with the group, as well, doesn't seem like a major request that would disrupt the group. If anything, it would at least keep me up with them.
CycloneRanger 06-01-05, 03:16 AM	You're correct in regards where things went smootly, however, if you did read the rest of my team (and the half-dragon is a brass btw) you see that the team all have stats above 15, which is pretty good, I know this, you know this. HOWEVER, asking to be able to keep up with the group, as well, doesn't seem like a major request that would disrupt the group. If anything, it would at least keep me up with them. Asking to be able to keep up is not a major request, and I encourage you to ask your DM about this issue. It is important that the relative power of the characters in a party be similar, unless everyone agrees otherwise. Here, I agree with you. However, you did not ask, previously, whether or not it was acceptable to ask to reroll a character who was behind in terms of power. You asked if it was reasonable to play a character with an ability score below ten. I don't mean to split hairs, but those are two very different questions. I shall now retire for the night.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 03:19 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6327510#post6327510 Quoting HappyDragon
Mike W 06-01-05, 03:28 AM	I could have played the Drow Rogue with 18 int and 20 dex, Half-Dragon/Half-Orc Barbarian with 28 STR and Immunity to Fire, or Aasimar Paladin with 17 wis and 20 cha, but I didn't. I just picked a typical Human Fighter, and having stats above 10, most of which top at 14, doesn't seem so out of bounds for me. HOWEVER, asking to be able to keep up with the group, as well, doesn't seem like a major request that would disrupt the group. If anything, it would at least keep me up with them. You don't think it's at all odd that your decision to not make a character on the same power level as the rest of the party has led to your character being less powerful than the party? Just asking.
The Man from Uncle 06-01-05, 03:29 AM	PrinceAzar - 'I'm sorry, perhaps you were speaking of yourself?' To everyone else.....did he just pull a 'what you say is what you are' retort? At least that explains why he can't drink. To PrinceAzar, use my previous advice but instead of 'beer at a bar' try 'milk in the playground'. Meet him after school by the swings or something. :)
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 03:31 AM	My choice to drink isn't motivated by any self-thought ideals. If you wish to ridicule me for not wanting to drink alcohol, i'm a-ok with that, but please save it for another thread. As for the rebuttal, equal effort with equal force, they say.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 03:33 AM	The DM stated you CAN play up to LA +3, but it wasn't required. In fact the Paladin was originally going to be human until the race (Aasimar) was introduced to him in the chatroom. If I don't want to play a higher race, or suffer the XP penalty, why should I? It's for those reasons maintaining a decent average on stats is somewhat more important in this campaign in others i've been in
Quirriff 06-01-05, 04:00 AM	put the 7 into Charisma and play a half-orc!
HappyDragon 06-01-05, 04:09 AM	The DM stated you CAN play up to LA +3, but it wasn't required. In fact the Paladin was originally going to be human until the race (Aasimar) was introduced to him in the chatroom. If I don't want to play a higher race, or suffer the XP penalty, why should I? It's for those reasons maintaining a decent average on stats is somewhat more important in this campaign in others i've been in .......and that would be the bottom line right there. If it was a normal group of 1st level characters it would be one thing, but it's not. There's a big power gap there that especially at early levels will be a huge obtsacle in a characters survival. Peoples suggestions of talking to your DM and stating your request to him is the most viable way to go, hopefully he'll understand you are not trying to powergame, but simply be able to keep up to the challenges the rest of the group may have to be facing. If the DM says no, well then it will be a very short lived character....either out of simple number-crunching in combat or a lack of enjoyment, doesn't matter really......Either one will ensure a quick end to the character.
amethal 06-01-05, 05:50 AM	Hopefully, in the future you will remember to tell your DM that you won't play a character with any stat below 10 before you roll. Is your current DM actually refusing to let you reduce your 18 and increase your 7? I want my players to have fun, and play characters they enjoy, and hopefully your DM does too. As it sounds like the other characters have better ability scores than you I'd probably let you up the 7 to a 10 and keep the 18 as well in order to keep your stats in line with the rest of the party. PS the Man from Uncle's suggestion of having a beer with your DM made me smile, because I remember your posts on the "D&D and beer" thread.
The Man from Uncle 06-01-05, 06:02 AM	DnD and Beer thread? Is there a link? Cos no 2 thing go better together than a 6 sided dice and a six pack of beer. (Except maybe a 20 sided dice and a 20 pack of beer!). Also the Prince said... 'If you wish to ridicule me for not wanting to drink alcohol, i'm a-ok with that, but please save it for another thread.' ...that thread sounds like the perfect place.
amethal 06-01-05, 06:27 AM	DnD and Beer thread? Is there a link? Cos no 2 thing go better together than a 6 sided dice and a six pack of beer. (Except maybe a 20 sided dice and a 20 pack of beer!). Also the Prince said... 'If you wish to ridicule me for not wanting to drink alcohol, i'm a-ok with that, but please save it for another thread.' ...that thread sounds like the perfect place. I don't have much luck with links. It was this one, but its closed. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=435494
Torack 06-01-05, 07:13 AM	Wow. That's all I have to say on this topic. *Dons the flameretarding suit.*
GDwarf 06-01-05, 07:27 AM	IF I'm reading the posts correctly PA is in a powergaming group where no one but him has a stat below 10, and the minimum seems to be about 12. Now, in a normal game of DnD a 7 is not bad, a guy with 7 Dex Will not trip, hell, he'd probably be able to tie knots easily, it's the guy with 5 or 3 in a stat who is deficient. In a powergaming game, which you seem to be in, a 7 can be a problem, but if it is powergaming then just put it in CHA. No one likes playing weakling characters, but one 7 with 4 stats above a 10 is not weak, two 7s and an 8 is weak, one 5 is weak, one 7 most definatly is not weak.
fallabel 06-01-05, 08:38 AM	Question for the group: Why boother rolling dice if you can't accept the outcome of the roll? Imagine PA playing poker. He gets dealt a 2 and 7 off-suit as his hole cards, and promptly stands up and quits the game, because the dealer won't give him new cards.
snowlynx 06-01-05, 08:40 AM	Everyone else has 15s and above....out of curiousity, is this before or after racial modifiers? After all, if someone is playing a half-dragon, and will eventually be accepting the XP penalty, how can you say it's not fair that your stats are not the same as his, when he has to pay for his extra in a level adjustment? I mean, I have a character in a high level game, and one of the characters is a metallic dragon. Now, she easily has super-stats which far outdo the bonuses I got, even for being a half-celestial, but How can I possibly complain that she has better stats then me, when I know she's paying for those stats in the number of hit dice she has? To be fair, it sounds like your complaint is that your power level is below everyone else's, but it's not just from dice rolls; it's the choices you are making about your character. It's not exactly fair to this group that you are creating a character you know to be subpar with the rest of the characters, and then complaining because it's not good enough. If you want a game that doesn't involve the level adjusted races, I strongly suggest you find a different game, or find some way in which you can be happy with the situation, as it sounds like the other players are quite happy with what the DM has done.
fallabel 06-01-05, 08:42 AM	I could have played the Drow Rogue with 18 int and 20 dex, Half-Dragon/Half-Orc Barbarian with 28 STR and Immunity to Fire, or Aasimar Paladin with 17 wis and 20 cha, but I didn't. I just picked a typical Human Fighter, and having stats above 10, most of which top at 14, doesn't seem so out of bounds for me. Given those stats, it has to be after racial modifiers.
snowlynx 06-01-05, 08:43 AM	Question for the group: Why boother rolling dice if you can't accept the outcome of the roll? I actually don't like rolling, but I live with it if that's what the rest of the group wants. (I don't like rolling because people always find loopholes to the rolls, like making five characters for one game with different rolls, and choosing the one with the best stats. Shame on them. The DMs in charge are finding ways to prevent this, like rolling for stats beforehand or using the point buy system....)
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 06-01-05, 08:56 AM	Personally, I think a 7 isn't that bad, especially if all your other stats are over 10. If you're really unhappy about it, ask your DM if you can knock some points off another roll to boost that one up or something. You don't have to have a character-sheet full of 18's to play the game.
Darth Doom 06-01-05, 09:33 AM	A 7 isnt the end of the world. I myself may not at times like the outcome of Stat rolls, but Ill accept them and think of ways to implement them into making an interesting character that has flaws. I dont want the flaw, but Ill show maturity and accept it: not cry and stamp my foot. So far however, I dont see where the problem is. Youve rolled a 7, you asked for a re-roll, your DM said no, so that should be the end of topic. So what if the rest of the group have things like +3 LA because of race and that sort of thing, think of ways around it, or better yet, shrug and pay no heed to the other characters power levels. Your character is the only one that should matter to you, go that fighter, and put the 7 into Charisma or something, and let the +3 LA Paladin do all the talking, In Game problem solved. Perhaps that 7 represents an ugly war wound across the characters neck, thus people have a hard time talking to him face to face. *shrugs* a 7 isnt the end of the world. So far, youve come on here seeking peoples advice - which has actually been quite generously given when taken into account the amount of insults they have received - and when it wasnt to your liking, you spat it back in their face and called them idiots. Idiot, as defined by dictionary dot com: A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive. As you can quite clearly see, idiot is not a term that fittingly describes any of the people that have posted. Via your compelling desire for a "heroic" character, I believe you have centered things a bit to much around the mechanics on which the game system relies on as a measurement of ones in game capability. "Hero", as defined by dictionary dot com: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war. Once again you can quite clearly see, Hero's do not function by basing their capabilities on the limitations of numbers and mathematical systems, instead, Hero's are perceived as such via their actions, courage, outlook, the purity of their deeds, and the ones people enjoy seeing the most: by overcoming their own disabilities and flaws to uphold that which they fight for. For example Spider Man's flaws are the ones he loves, yet he sacrafices his connections with them for the purpose of saving others. So, this notion that a mere small pencil mark of 7 on your character sheet will halt your characters attempt at being heroic is an illusion, see past it my friend, and you will instead see you were destined to receive that number for a purpose. My advice for that 7: Stress less. Less Stress = :dancin: Then very soon your whole party will be - :dancin::dancin::dancin::dancin::dancin: Stressing over such a thing will lead only to - :headexplo - which can be very unhealthy. Then very soon your entire pary may be - :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo So as you can quite clearly see, it would be best to evade such a situation while you still can. Evade my friend, turn off your current course and steer yourself to the role playing gardens of strengths, flaws and characterization. When role playing your new character, heed these wise words: If you do everything right, then no one will notice that youve done anything at all.
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 10:03 AM	Oh my God. I step away from this thread for a few hours and no one quotes me? My wit (half of it, anyway) is growing unappreciated! Grrrrr...... Azar, if you do a tally of posters on this board, you'll see that it's about 40 against you, a neutral vote or three, and then you. It's rapidly degenerating into a flame war and bickering argument about player preferences and the definition of a hero. Losing battle...you're being quoted and refuted into oblivion man. My advice? Pull out now, save what little face and part of your trousers that you can, and live to post inflammatory threads another day. Also, maybe you could ask your DM to scrap the whole set of rolls and try again? From what I've gathered, you just want to re-roll the 7. If you started all over again, you might do even better than before. if I were a DM and I were faced with a player sporting you particular beef, it's what I'd do. Well, it's what I'd do if I didn't suspend you for being argumentative at character creation and giving out my phone number on the internet . Maybe he'll realize that you won't quit moaning until you've got a guy that's not sporting a "-" in front of any stat. Good luck to you on that.
Callista 06-01-05, 10:19 AM	I'd gladly ditch the 18 to raise the 7, in place of a close stat to 12, but the DM does not allow point purchase methods. My point being, a stat under 10 does not necessetate good roleplaying, nor should I take it, because "other people" find it funny. Understood? Okay, first of all, folks, stop flaming this guy. It's not worth it--disagreement is no reason to start an argument. The stats he got, if you take out the 18, *are* below average. 12, 14, 11, 7: Average, 11. Like I said, a little below average, though only by... what, half a point? A point and a half? Something of the sort. So the point is that, yes, the stats are below average for the method his DM is using. But not by much; they're within a reasonable distance from the average, and so need not be re-rolled. Anyways, yes: It's playable. Your modifiers total a +4, not counting the stat I don't know, which is above the standard for any power of game. I wouldn't ask for a re-roll. What I would do, instead, would be to pick a class that needs only one strong stat, like Barbarian. Put the 14 in CON, and go for it. Your character will be fine--putting the strong stat in the right place is infinitely more important than having the rest of the stats be good. And, like many people, I will note that a 7 is good for role-play!
Thoronmir 06-01-05, 10:25 AM	I'm rolling for this DM, who allowed us this rule: 4d6, drop the lowest, roll 5 times, and you have a free 18 to place. So I roll a 14, 12, 11, ok rolls, nothing spectacular, then I hit a 7. I ask politely if I may re-roll, seeing as how under 10 at the last, represents a serious deficeney. When i argue this with my DM, he goes "people are deficent all the time in real life", to which I counter " true, but D&D isn't real life, and we're supposedly to be playing above-average folks here. It's no fun in the game if my character dies from a mosquito bite due to his 7 Con, or stumbles due to his 7 dex, or speaks moronically due to his 7 int." Was I right in being somewhat upset at being handed such a low stat? And to make it clear, the Dm stated nothing about re-rolls prior to the rolls themselves (the thought hadn't cross my mind yet), I was hoping he'd be civil enough to make a compromise.Well, I just finished reading all four pages of this thread and Man! I wish I had that part of my life back. The answer to the OP’s first question is “No” … you were not justified at being upset that the DM would not let you re-roll the 7. Any PC with stats of 18, 14, and 12 is playable, regardless what the other three scores are. As for “keeping” up with the other PCs, isn’t that the risk you run when rolling stats in any game? It’s one reason I prefer to use a point-buy method. But what really puts me off is how you immediately doomed your PC to short-lived existence as a second-class citizen in your party.
Kursk 06-01-05, 10:54 AM	I'm rolling for this DM, who allowed us this rule: 4d6, drop the lowest, roll 5 times, and you have a free 18 to place. So I roll a 14, 12, 11, ok rolls, nothing spectacular, then I hit a 7. I ask politely if I may re-roll, seeing as how under 10 at the last, represents a serious deficeney. When i argue this with my DM, he goes "people are deficent all the time in real life", to which I counter " true, but D&D isn't real life, and we're supposedly to be playing above-average folks here. It's no fun in the game if my character dies from a mosquito bite due to his 7 Con, or stumbles due to his 7 dex, or speaks moronically due to his 7 int." Was I right in being somewhat upset at being handed such a low stat? And to make it clear, the Dm stated nothing about re-rolls prior to the rolls themselves (the thought hadn't cross my mind yet), I was hoping he'd be civil enough to make a compromise. No, you need to grow up and learn to role play. I've played many times with a stat of 7 or lower. It can be fun.
TheUnknownZombie 06-01-05, 11:06 AM	Good single-low-statted characters I've played/seen: Sorcerer with Int6. Had a habit of fireballing enemies that were in close combat with his allies. Had to be physically restrained. Warlock with Str7. Gained the charm invocation and persuaded people to carry his stuff for him. Swashbuckler with Cha5. Thought he was suave & good looking, but was really sleazy and never understood why the wenches stayed away. Dwarvern Fighter with Cha4. Foul mouthed and unwilling to suffer fools gladly (and by fools, he meant humans). I'm currently playing a Druid with an Int & Cha of 8. His comrades find him "refreshingly honest" and trust he regularly steals the show. A single 7 is more than playable. Having your character be a paragon of Strength, Agility, Fortitude, Will, Intellect and Personality sounds fairly bland. Most interesting characters in fiction have a flaw or two (Frodo was physically weak, Luke Skywalker was naive and Aragorn didn't have a personality at all). If you're that concerned about the 7, try that "balancing with the 18" thing. You could have them turn into a 10 & 15 or a 12 & 13. But then you won't be a paragon of anything, merely above average. Alternatively, put your first stat increase into it and wait until you can get a magic item of stat +2 (it only costs 4,000gp). But no, your DM isn't being unreasonable. He shouldn't have to say "no rerolls" in advance, as it's not in the rules that you're entitled to them. If your average was very low, then scrap the lot & try again, but a single low stat shouldn't break your character or the game.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-01-05, 11:40 AM	Personally, I dislike all good stats. What I like is one or two exceptional rolls, a few aaverage, and one or two low rolls. I like my characters to have soem sort of shortcoming to overcome. (Like the paladin with 7 dexterity I played a while back.)
Need_A_Life 06-01-05, 11:54 AM	I started reading this thinking I'd find a debate on the benefits of rolling vs. pointbuy system, but the last few pages are flames. I had a character rolled up at one point who had stats at 15 and DOWN, I changed his ability scores so he had from 5 and UP (only keeping my 18 Con). Azar, if you believe that people are being closedminded and that 'they don't understand what you're going through' then try understanding that when a majority says that 'it's unfortunate but forget it and move on' then they aren't out to get you, and you can't win every discussion (especially when you should be persuading your DM, not us). BTW, how old are you? You sound like someone I know, he acted just like that two or three years ago... I wonder if it has something to do with age...
Mercurius 06-01-05, 12:40 PM	I think part of the problem with this thread is lack of information. We, the readers, have not been given enough information about the circumstances in this game by the original poster to really judge his individual case. Taken in a vacuum, with just the original post to go on, yes, it is unreasonable to get bent out of shape over a 7 stat, especially with all those other stats. I'd love to have that stat array, myself, for many of my characters, though I admit I might dump stat it because to do otherwise would probably hurt the group in the long run. However, there are other things that could be at work here. The rest of the players have access to up to LA+3 character types. Is the original poster's LA+0 character starting at fourth level while theirs start at 1st? Are they suffering severe penalties amounting to their LA in "negative levels" (thus garnering penalties to attack, spells, etc)? Are they being deprived of their experience points for a number of levels equal to their level adjustment? Are they suffering no disadvantage for their LA choice (I.E. they're ignoring the LA all together)? The latter two will invariably lead to normal player options being sub-optimal and potentially unforgiving, either for the early levels (the second to last option) or for the rest of the character's life span (the last option). If the other options were what were in play, then the 7 is still fine, though if everyone else rolled significantly higher, I could understand some frustration as well... In short, to really say anything other than what the forumites have responded with so far, we would need much more information, and not just the DM's phone number. We would need to know the other characters, the rules regarding the LAs of the rest of the party, the starting level, etc. You can't provide just the information you did and expect to get the same responses, since we have very limited information to draw our answers from and must thus expand upon that data with our own experiences. And argumentative and insulting retorts don't help your case. Most players like higher stats. It makes them feel more capable, and while one or two lower stats might be fun to play around with at times, they can potentially detract from the character the player was wanting to play. For that reason, I allow my players to roll stats, and if they don't like them, they can then opt for a 32 point stat buy. But I run pretty hard games where withdrawing from a dungeon isn't usually an option unless it's a full on retreat, so YMMV.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 12:51 PM	Ymmv?
Thoronmir 06-01-05, 01:12 PM	Ymmv?"You Mileage May Vary" ... meaning that things may work different in your game.
kam_Islash 06-01-05, 01:44 PM	Learn to minmax. Put the stat somewhere where you get a racial bonus, or an age bonus. Also, you might want to consider asking the DM to let you have a wondrous item, +6. ///
Fortebraccio 06-01-05, 01:50 PM	Hmmmm, as a DM I wouldn't be bothered at all... I'd just say "Ok, your 18 is now a 16, your 7 is a 13 (using point-buy guidelines), enjoy your balanced character." This argument is quite weird. :mymy:
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 02:06 PM	This argument is quite weird. :mymy: I can think of a plethora of adjectives to go along with that one.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 02:18 PM	Then do so, it would so please me to see you banished back to the Abyss.
Darckchild 06-01-05, 02:28 PM	Look, first off You should never be force/trapped to play a character that your not happy with... No raising it to a 10 isn't unreasonable all things considered... even if you had to drop or alter other stats.... The others suggest "role-playing" it, and making it work. This ONLY works if the group is role-playing and not "roll-playing" . And by the sounds of it, the DM allowing your follow players to play level adjusted characters... I think that they're roll-players.... Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what we all say, it's up to you and your story teller, er DM..... If the DM doesn't allow for you to adjust, I hope he holds the same to the other players.... I mean who really sees these type of creatures walking down the main streets of an normal fantasy city town... "Asim...what? Naw he's a witch BURN IT!" I do feel for you, and I hope you have the best of luck with your character....
Draco Strang 06-01-05, 02:34 PM	Then do so, it would so please me to see you banished back to the Abyss. That was a little harsh. I was expounding on verbacity, not attacking anyone. P.S.-Have you talked to your DM and figured out what's up yet?
Crossover-Chronicler 06-01-05, 02:51 PM	I'd gladly ditch the 18 to raise the 7, in place of a close stat to 12, but the DM does not allow point purchase methods. My point being, a stat under 10 does not necessetate good roleplaying, nor should I take it, because "other people" find it funny. Understood?No, you should take it 'cause you rolled it. By accepting the dice-rolling to begin with, you should have understood the risk of rolling poor stats. The DM is not obligated to bow to your preferences, especially considering that you character is well within playable limits. (Wow, this has to be the first time in months that I've actually sided with a DM...) While "good roleplaying" does not require any poor stats, the inability to deal with a single poor stat could be seen as poor roleplaying. Go for Charisma 7. Treat the NPCs the way you're treating the folks on this thread. It'll be perfect.###- ###- #### Go right ahead and call him, ask for Dan.While it's been a while since I've read the CoC and terms of agreement in significant detail, I can say that posing another person's personal/contact information on a public forum is sketchy to say the least. Checking the CoC now... edit: Okay, I could find nothing in the CoC, but nevertheless...
Thoronmir 06-01-05, 03:18 PM	Go for Charisma 7. Treat the NPCs the way you're treating the folks on this thread. It'll be perfect.I had the same thought ... nothing like a little "type-casting" to make role-playing easier. Azar, if you're so confident you're in the right, I recommend inviting your DM to review this thread. Perhaps he'll be swayed by your reasoning here ... even though we aren't. BTW, posting your DM's phone number on a supposedly anonymous forum ... Crassest. Move. Ever. I'm actually considering making use of the information just to warn your DM that you've "outed" his personal data here as part of your whinefest. But I'd rather see you edit that particular post to remove the phone number from public view.
Super Guy 06-01-05, 03:28 PM	Why is this topic still alive? I wish a mod would close this, it's looking fairly hostile. There's no point I can see in it, anymore. Page one was fine, but this is ridiculous.
kam_Islash 06-01-05, 04:14 PM	Ladies and gentleman, let us not fight. Why flame, and why troll? There really isn't a point to it. All it does is cause aggravation and make the moderators have to strain theimselves with extra work. So please, let us all get along and discuss the topic at hand in a civilized, 30 ranks in diplomacy and knowledge etiquette manner. ///
adrj 06-01-05, 05:22 PM	Since nobody has mentioned this yet... You could invest 4000 gold and buy a magic item to up the offending stat if it truly bothers you that much.