Is it something I used? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is it something I used? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gentle_Android
11-10-06, 12:26 AM Something I found out yesterday about a fellow DM's houseruling bothered me substantially. His rulling, which has been agreed apon by some, maybe all of the others (sketchy on that detail), is that content from the Dragon magazine can't be used by the players. Houserulings don't generally vex me, but this one, I felt, had a poignancy directed specifically at me; I am the only member of our gaming troupe to use Dragon, sometimes Dungeon magazines in my own campaigns, as a player, and I am also the only one that owns them out of our group, and for that matter, our social circle.
You can imagine my dismay, then, that while I had been on a gaming hiatus due to a medical condition, Dragon had been blanket-banned. Why had this come to pass? What was the reasoning behind this? I asked the friend who had mentioned it to me in genuine surprise:
"Well, we figure that the Dragon content isn't actually official WoTC content - you know it's published by Green Ronin? Yeah, well, it's just fan submissions, not actual official rules."
My friend explained, to my puzzlement. Dragon, published by Green Ronin? Not actual WoTC content? I tried to recall the last time my friends had used, or for that matter, seen said magazine; Paizo Publishing was Dragon's syndicator, and had been for a while, as I recalled. I asked him to hold while I checked the latest issue that I had acquired, #347. I examined the front cover intensely to see if I had at some point misinterpretted it and subsumed that assumption: I was perfectly happy to admit that I was wrong, of course, I consider myself a rational, mature person, so no one would be "bigger" if found right. My search didn't take long; a glance beside the barcode revealed the source of my confusion, and it read: paizo publishing(tm). This had simply raised more questions - I looked at the top of the page, this time in the top left hand side which held the "Dungeons and Dragons" sword motiff logo, above which in small white letters were "100% OFFICIAL CONTENT".
At this point I physically felt my right eyebrow raise in confusion; a reflection of my inner feelings that needed no provocation. I picked up the phone again with more bewildered questions bubbling into my mind:
"Where did you get this information from, [************]? I didn't even need to open the magazine to find out most of what you've told me is misleading, to say the least."
"I'm saying that it isn't WoTC rules," he replied, with a tone in his voice that distinctly implied disinterest in my protests on his part, "Wizards don't actually write those rules themselves, so we're not using them anymore. They're not official, and they're redundant."
I was not willing to jeopardize my friendship with this person, so I decided to not hound him for answers; especially if he sounded like he didn't care for talking to me about the situation. Later, after pleasentries were spoken and news was carried, I hung up the phone and tried to make sense of that portion of conversation. Were they penalizing me in particular? Was there something I had done, or used, that warranted such a wide ban? Some of the group had, I knew, commented on how the Dragon magazine was "unbalanced", but this didn't seem to fit with such a careless quarantine of content - I had not been at the gaming table in months, over half a year, to be exact, and while I was gone, they could not have come into contact without me. I could not leave the magazines behind for them to read, something I had always regretted, because I did not personally own many of the issues I used in my games with them, and as such, it was simply a liberty I couldn't afford, though I tried to make exceptions wherever I could. My confusion turned to anger when I realised that this same DM, in this same campaign that he had banned Dragon magazines from, had used it's content numerous times, the hypocrite! One of the earlier plot hooks had even been the Black Cauldron, a necromantic device whose statistic's origins came from where? The Dragon magazine.

Please tell me if I am at fault, or if they are, or what I can say or do to lift the ban. The fate of my subscription renewal is in your hands.
The White Sorcerer
11-10-06, 12:38 AM It might help if you told us what Dragon content you've used.

Also, redundant? How so? Please ask your friend to explain this.
Gentle_Android
11-10-06, 12:41 AM I essentially use the "class acts" section, and that's it.
Neratos
11-10-06, 12:43 AM Easy, use the dragon compendium. That is DnD official, and it compiles a ton of dragon magazine content into one book. Also since it is in book form, feels more real to some ppl.
Comus
11-10-06, 01:14 AM I have to agree with your friend - Dragon material, while official, just isn't something I use or allow in my games. That's not to say I don't purchase and enjoy it, but it isn't something that is for every game.

Now, if I was playing in a game and the DM said "Here's some stuff from Dragon that I want to include in my game," I'd use it. But that's a different case.
DarkRhystar
11-10-06, 02:45 AM Houserulings don't generally vex me, but this one, I felt, had a poignancy directed specifically at me; I am the only member of our gaming troupe to use Dragon, sometimes Dungeon magazines in my own campaigns, as a player, and I am also the only one that owns them out of our group, and for that matter, our social circle.

I think this is the important part.

You may have access to a whole heap of magazines, but do your friends have complete access to all of it as well?

If not, it's the equivalent of saying "You guys can use the PhB, but he can use the PhB and the Complete Series."
Mitchell
11-10-06, 03:55 AM I don't see where the DM not allowing Dragon material is really any different from the DM not allowing any "Complete" material.
Official doesn't mean that it's not optional. The fact that they were wrong about the publisher and all that doesn't change this.
You want to use Dragon material? Show it to the other players. Show them stuff that they could get some use out of. Let them borrow your magazines. If they eventually decide that they would like to use some of the material, then you can take it up with your DM as a group.
I could go out and buy any number of actual WotC product, but it still has to get cleared by the DM. Dragon magazine is no different.
Bahamut_the_Gold
11-10-06, 03:57 AM I am not calling my self wise by any means but in all my dealings with friends communication is the key and trust is the foundation.

If these people truly are your friends then the reasons behind the ban are open for debate. A simple discussion shouldn't jeopardize your friendship.

Tell them what you are thinking:

"I feel this ban was directed at me."

"WoTC doesn't publish Dragon/Dungeon BUT how many other publications can claim to be 100% OFFICIAL CONTENT?"

"Do you think WoTC would OK anything that they hadn't checked/re-checked/ and crossed referenced dealing with DnD?"

Use precise and to the point language.

I have had several sessions brake down into shouting matches with friends. We calm down and discuss things.

That is why we are adults...that escape to a fantasy world any time we can :D
Terraneaux
11-10-06, 04:04 AM I'm usually pretty free with what i let into my games- the arcane archer in one of my campaigns is using the crazy arrows article from the most recent dragon. Sometimes, though, I just don't want to deal with that stuff in a game. If it got banned midway through a campaign, however, it may be due to some of your actions.
babysamurai
11-10-06, 07:09 AM A DM is free to disallow any material he/she pleases.

If you are playing in a Dragonlance campaign, where psionics do not exist, do you hound the DM to let you use the XPH? I hope not.

I’m currently running a Planescape campaign, where the players are free to use anything from any WotC book and Dragon/Dungeon magazine.

But in my next campaign, I plan on running Core-only. Am I wrong? Is that unfair?
kelvinaw273
11-10-06, 08:25 AM Your DM can allow and dissallow what he likes, that is his perogative.

Myself, I would probably take the same line with non-core material - if I don't own it, I must vet it before I allow it.

Now if you use Dargon-magazine content to enrich your own games, great, but other DMs have other ideas. The proliferation of extra rules, feats, spells, classes and whatnot is getting exponentiol, and some DM's dobn't feel the need to keep up in order to run a good game. Some players do feel the need to get their hands on anything that gives thier character an advantage. The thing is these threads a choc FULL of cases of stories of players bringing in 'official' material that favours their characters and wrecking the game for everyone by exploiting a rules loophole - and most of the time they get away with it because the DM does not have the material himself to assess the consequences of allowing or dissallowing it. You may not be one of these, but you should consider the reasons your DM may have. I suggest that if there is anything in any of your back-catalogue you want included, you take it to him and ask him well in advance of introducing it.
wonlee76
11-10-06, 11:52 AM Easy, use the dragon compendium. That is DnD official, and it compiles a ton of dragon magazine content into one book. Also since it is in book form, feels more real to some ppl.

I'm not sure how compiling certain things from Dragon Magazine by the same publisher of Dragon Magazine makes it "DnD official." If you mean "DnD official" to mean using the d20 SRD rule set, than all third party publishers (Green Ronin, Malhavok Press, etc.) would be considered "DnD official". If that's what you mean by official, than you're right, the Dragon Compendium is DnD official.

As to the OP, what I believe your DM intended to say is basically Wizard of the Coast does not maintain, edit, produce, or write articles in Dragon Magazine on a regular basis. I know some authors of supplemental WOTC material have done articles and stuff in the book but they don't do it on any set schedule from what I can see and those articles and submissions are not done or prepared in some "official" capacity on behalf of WOTC with the possible exception of the Sage Advice column.

Paizo Publishing are the editors and compilers/testers of Dragon Magazine material which does include "fan submissions" on occasion. The good news is WOTC sometimes takes pieces of Dragon Magazine and tosses them into their latest supplement (Spell Compendium, Dragon Magic, etc.).

So the round about way to get some Dragon Material in your game is wait for WOTC to include it in one of their supplements.

As for your DM, he's right on this issue to the extent he is the final arbiter of what materials he will allow in his game. Some DMs don't like psionics, some DMs don't like TOme of Battle or Tome of Magic, some DMs don't like Incarnum or Savage Species or whatever. Just because someone published a DnD book that conforms to the d20 rule system does not mean every DM in the world is compelled to allow the use of such material.
Kradlo
11-10-06, 12:08 PM Rule Zero: A Game Master is free to add, delete, or modify any rule that he wishes for his campaign. That means that some GMs play only by the core rules, others with certain WotC supplements, and some others deem the sky the limit.

The Dragon and Dungeon magazine are all "100% official content," yes, but all of that is optional, just as the Races of series, and the Complete series, or any book other than the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual.

Your friends don't wish to incorporate the material into their campaigns. When they're the GM, it's their call to make. You run your game as you deem fit. If the material helps your game, more power to you.
The White Sorcerer
11-10-06, 12:33 PM If you mean "DnD official" to mean using the d20 SRD rule set
Nope, I think he means "D&D official" to mean "has the D&D logo on the cover."
Jutter
11-10-06, 01:11 PM I can understand your DM's point of view. I'm a DM myself, and I allow all material from WotC books I own (except a very few feats and prestige classes), but nothing more. This way, my players can create their characters and all I have to do is read them over a few days ahead of the campaign's start. And they don't have to call me every time they want to choose a certain feat or prestige class.

On the other hand, if one of my players had an expensive subscription to Dragon or Dungeon, and he really wanted to use this material, I would add the following houserule:
"Material from Dragon or Dungeon is allowed, but any material used requires the DM's explicit permission. Magazines used for your character should be available at the table during the game."

Maybe you can persuade your DM to do something similar? After all, it's everybody's game. This way, he doesn't have to be afraid of unbalancing stuff, and you can still use your magazines.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gentle_Android 11-10-06, 12:26 AM	Something I found out yesterday about a fellow DM's houseruling bothered me substantially. His rulling, which has been agreed apon by some, maybe all of the others (sketchy on that detail), is that content from the Dragon magazine can't be used by the players. Houserulings don't generally vex me, but this one, I felt, had a poignancy directed specifically at me; I am the only member of our gaming troupe to use Dragon, sometimes Dungeon magazines in my own campaigns, as a player, and I am also the only one that owns them out of our group, and for that matter, our social circle. You can imagine my dismay, then, that while I had been on a gaming hiatus due to a medical condition, Dragon had been blanket-banned. Why had this come to pass? What was the reasoning behind this? I asked the friend who had mentioned it to me in genuine surprise: "Well, we figure that the Dragon content isn't actually official WoTC content - you know it's published by Green Ronin? Yeah, well, it's just fan submissions, not actual official rules." My friend explained, to my puzzlement. Dragon, published by Green Ronin? Not actual WoTC content? I tried to recall the last time my friends had used, or for that matter, seen said magazine; Paizo Publishing was Dragon's syndicator, and had been for a while, as I recalled. I asked him to hold while I checked the latest issue that I had acquired, #347. I examined the front cover intensely to see if I had at some point misinterpretted it and subsumed that assumption: I was perfectly happy to admit that I was wrong, of course, I consider myself a rational, mature person, so no one would be "bigger" if found right. My search didn't take long; a glance beside the barcode revealed the source of my confusion, and it read: paizo publishing(tm). This had simply raised more questions - I looked at the top of the page, this time in the top left hand side which held the "Dungeons and Dragons" sword motiff logo, above which in small white letters were "100% OFFICIAL CONTENT". At this point I physically felt my right eyebrow raise in confusion; a reflection of my inner feelings that needed no provocation. I picked up the phone again with more bewildered questions bubbling into my mind: "Where did you get this information from, [************]? I didn't even need to open the magazine to find out most of what you've told me is misleading, to say the least." "I'm saying that it isn't WoTC rules," he replied, with a tone in his voice that distinctly implied disinterest in my protests on his part, "Wizards don't actually write those rules themselves, so we're not using them anymore. They're not official, and they're redundant." I was not willing to jeopardize my friendship with this person, so I decided to not hound him for answers; especially if he sounded like he didn't care for talking to me about the situation. Later, after pleasentries were spoken and news was carried, I hung up the phone and tried to make sense of that portion of conversation. Were they penalizing me in particular? Was there something I had done, or used, that warranted such a wide ban? Some of the group had, I knew, commented on how the Dragon magazine was "unbalanced", but this didn't seem to fit with such a careless quarantine of content - I had not been at the gaming table in months, over half a year, to be exact, and while I was gone, they could not have come into contact without me. I could not leave the magazines behind for them to read, something I had always regretted, because I did not personally own many of the issues I used in my games with them, and as such, it was simply a liberty I couldn't afford, though I tried to make exceptions wherever I could. My confusion turned to anger when I realised that this same DM, in this same campaign that he had banned Dragon magazines from, had used it's content numerous times, the hypocrite! One of the earlier plot hooks had even been the Black Cauldron, a necromantic device whose statistic's origins came from where? The Dragon magazine. Please tell me if I am at fault, or if they are, or what I can say or do to lift the ban. The fate of my subscription renewal is in your hands.
The White Sorcerer 11-10-06, 12:38 AM	It might help if you told us what Dragon content you've used. Also, redundant? How so? Please ask your friend to explain this.
Gentle_Android 11-10-06, 12:41 AM	I essentially use the "class acts" section, and that's it.
Neratos 11-10-06, 12:43 AM	Easy, use the dragon compendium. That is DnD official, and it compiles a ton of dragon magazine content into one book. Also since it is in book form, feels more real to some ppl.
Comus 11-10-06, 01:14 AM	I have to agree with your friend - Dragon material, while official, just isn't something I use or allow in my games. That's not to say I don't purchase and enjoy it, but it isn't something that is for every game. Now, if I was playing in a game and the DM said "Here's some stuff from Dragon that I want to include in my game," I'd use it. But that's a different case.
DarkRhystar 11-10-06, 02:45 AM	Houserulings don't generally vex me, but this one, I felt, had a poignancy directed specifically at me; I am the only member of our gaming troupe to use Dragon, sometimes Dungeon magazines in my own campaigns, as a player, and I am also the only one that owns them out of our group, and for that matter, our social circle. I think this is the important part. You may have access to a whole heap of magazines, but do your friends have complete access to all of it as well? If not, it's the equivalent of saying "You guys can use the PhB, but he can use the PhB and the Complete Series."
Mitchell 11-10-06, 03:55 AM	I don't see where the DM not allowing Dragon material is really any different from the DM not allowing any "Complete" material. Official doesn't mean that it's not optional. The fact that they were wrong about the publisher and all that doesn't change this. You want to use Dragon material? Show it to the other players. Show them stuff that they could get some use out of. Let them borrow your magazines. If they eventually decide that they would like to use some of the material, then you can take it up with your DM as a group. I could go out and buy any number of actual WotC product, but it still has to get cleared by the DM. Dragon magazine is no different.
Bahamut_the_Gold 11-10-06, 03:57 AM	I am not calling my self wise by any means but in all my dealings with friends communication is the key and trust is the foundation. If these people truly are your friends then the reasons behind the ban are open for debate. A simple discussion shouldn't jeopardize your friendship. Tell them what you are thinking: "I feel this ban was directed at me." "WoTC doesn't publish Dragon/Dungeon BUT how many other publications can claim to be 100% OFFICIAL CONTENT?" "Do you think WoTC would OK anything that they hadn't checked/re-checked/ and crossed referenced dealing with DnD?" Use precise and to the point language. I have had several sessions brake down into shouting matches with friends. We calm down and discuss things. That is why we are adults...that escape to a fantasy world any time we can :D
Terraneaux 11-10-06, 04:04 AM	I'm usually pretty free with what i let into my games- the arcane archer in one of my campaigns is using the crazy arrows article from the most recent dragon. Sometimes, though, I just don't want to deal with that stuff in a game. If it got banned midway through a campaign, however, it may be due to some of your actions.
babysamurai 11-10-06, 07:09 AM	A DM is free to disallow any material he/she pleases. If you are playing in a Dragonlance campaign, where psionics do not exist, do you hound the DM to let you use the XPH? I hope not. I’m currently running a Planescape campaign, where the players are free to use anything from any WotC book and Dragon/Dungeon magazine. But in my next campaign, I plan on running Core-only. Am I wrong? Is that unfair?
kelvinaw273 11-10-06, 08:25 AM	Your DM can allow and dissallow what he likes, that is his perogative. Myself, I would probably take the same line with non-core material - if I don't own it, I must vet it before I allow it. Now if you use Dargon-magazine content to enrich your own games, great, but other DMs have other ideas. The proliferation of extra rules, feats, spells, classes and whatnot is getting exponentiol, and some DM's dobn't feel the need to keep up in order to run a good game. Some players do feel the need to get their hands on anything that gives thier character an advantage. The thing is these threads a choc FULL of cases of stories of players bringing in 'official' material that favours their characters and wrecking the game for everyone by exploiting a rules loophole - and most of the time they get away with it because the DM does not have the material himself to assess the consequences of allowing or dissallowing it. You may not be one of these, but you should consider the reasons your DM may have. I suggest that if there is anything in any of your back-catalogue you want included, you take it to him and ask him well in advance of introducing it.
wonlee76 11-10-06, 11:52 AM	Easy, use the dragon compendium. That is DnD official, and it compiles a ton of dragon magazine content into one book. Also since it is in book form, feels more real to some ppl. I'm not sure how compiling certain things from Dragon Magazine by the same publisher of Dragon Magazine makes it "DnD official." If you mean "DnD official" to mean using the d20 SRD rule set, than all third party publishers (Green Ronin, Malhavok Press, etc.) would be considered "DnD official". If that's what you mean by official, than you're right, the Dragon Compendium is DnD official. As to the OP, what I believe your DM intended to say is basically Wizard of the Coast does not maintain, edit, produce, or write articles in Dragon Magazine on a regular basis. I know some authors of supplemental WOTC material have done articles and stuff in the book but they don't do it on any set schedule from what I can see and those articles and submissions are not done or prepared in some "official" capacity on behalf of WOTC with the possible exception of the Sage Advice column. Paizo Publishing are the editors and compilers/testers of Dragon Magazine material which does include "fan submissions" on occasion. The good news is WOTC sometimes takes pieces of Dragon Magazine and tosses them into their latest supplement (Spell Compendium, Dragon Magic, etc.). So the round about way to get some Dragon Material in your game is wait for WOTC to include it in one of their supplements. As for your DM, he's right on this issue to the extent he is the final arbiter of what materials he will allow in his game. Some DMs don't like psionics, some DMs don't like TOme of Battle or Tome of Magic, some DMs don't like Incarnum or Savage Species or whatever. Just because someone published a DnD book that conforms to the d20 rule system does not mean every DM in the world is compelled to allow the use of such material.
Kradlo 11-10-06, 12:08 PM	Rule Zero: A Game Master is free to add, delete, or modify any rule that he wishes for his campaign. That means that some GMs play only by the core rules, others with certain WotC supplements, and some others deem the sky the limit. The Dragon and Dungeon magazine are all "100% official content," yes, but all of that is optional, just as the Races of series, and the Complete series, or any book other than the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual. Your friends don't wish to incorporate the material into their campaigns. When they're the GM, it's their call to make. You run your game as you deem fit. If the material helps your game, more power to you.
The White Sorcerer 11-10-06, 12:33 PM	If you mean "DnD official" to mean using the d20 SRD rule set Nope, I think he means "D&D official" to mean "has the D&D logo on the cover."
Jutter 11-10-06, 01:11 PM	I can understand your DM's point of view. I'm a DM myself, and I allow all material from WotC books I own (except a very few feats and prestige classes), but nothing more. This way, my players can create their characters and all I have to do is read them over a few days ahead of the campaign's start. And they don't have to call me every time they want to choose a certain feat or prestige class. On the other hand, if one of my players had an expensive subscription to Dragon or Dungeon, and he really wanted to use this material, I would add the following houserule: "Material from Dragon or Dungeon is allowed, but any material used requires the DM's explicit permission. Magazines used for your character should be available at the table during the game." Maybe you can persuade your DM to do something similar? After all, it's everybody's game. This way, he doesn't have to be afraid of unbalancing stuff, and you can still use your magazines.