Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JD 09-08-05, 05:03 PM	Bards have gotten a lot of bad press in my current gaming group, so at some point I'd quite like to play one and maybe change some of their minds. We're about to begin a new 3.5 campaign, which seems like the perfect opportunity. The only problem is the DM. His adventures tend to be extremely long dungeon crawls, and I'm not sure if a bard would do too well in those conditions. Should I bite the bullet and roll up a bard (and what kind would you suggest?), or should I go with a more combat-oriented character?
Abulafia 09-08-05, 05:27 PM	A bard is a great "5th man" in a group that already has members covering the iconic roles. The bard provides back up buffing, healing, combat ability, and skills, and has unique abilities that are useful in larger groups. What bards don't do well is stand in for an arcane caster, divine caster, rogue, or melee specialist. If you're trying to make a bard that's better at doing somebody else's job, you're going to end up killing yourself and/or your party members. If you have a larger group, feel free to play whatever kind of bard you wish. Check out the c/o boards for some good bard builds. Good luck!
JD 09-08-05, 05:32 PM	That's just the problem. I don't know how many players we'll have, but it'll likely only be four (we have a fifth, but he can't attend regularly, and so will probably be dropped soon). I'll have to wait and see what everyone else decides to play as first.
spoogemonkey 09-08-05, 05:37 PM	Bard's are great fun to play..... just don't let yourself get drug into thinking they are just bad melee fighters. In the first place they don't HAVE to be bad. They won't ever be as good as the warrior types, but they won't be as bad as the arcane casters, either. You just have to INSERT your personality in the adventure every chance you get. During EVERY break from combat..... sing.... or flirt.... or compose poetry outloud and suck the other characters into it. (Bard to Fighter:"What's a two sylable word that rhymes with cow?") And SING during combat.... they will like that. And don't forget how powerful the strategic use of illusions can be... or charms... And remind your cleric that if HE goes down.... you will heal HIM... Trust me - if you start having a lot of FUN playing your Bard..... everyone will want to play one. Doing the most damage is NOT having the most fun. If you are STILL worried about the dungeons..... then take a dwarf... and sing beer drinking songs... "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall, ninety-nine bottles of BEER..." Everybody! All together now. Now - just the Elves!
cambric 09-08-05, 05:39 PM	Bards have gotten a lot of bad press in my current gaming group, so at some point I'd quite like to play one and maybe change some of their minds. We're about to begin a new 3.5 campaign, which seems like the perfect opportunity. The only problem is the DM. His adventures tend to be extremely long dungeon crawls, and I'm not sure if a bard would do too well in those conditions. Should I bite the bullet and roll up a bard (and what kind would you suggest?), or should I go with a more combat-oriented character? I experienced what you're explaining...the bard class was getting "ripped" on by everyone in the group and I decided I would play a bard then...the look on everyone's faces was priceless. First, we have 6 people in our group, every "main" class is covered, so it wasn't like we "needed" a particular class, so that was a main reason. I've gone with the "support" and "buff" the party route and they love it! I've taken 2 extra music feats, lingering song (which doubles the length of the bonuses), and one from the Complete Warrior (I think) that allows me to trade music uses into extra spell casting! (That's why the extra music feats). I have a unbelievable Charisma (rolled an 18 and then, to my surprise, the DM finally agreed with the idea about Gnomes: Since WOTC, in their great wisdom :rolleyes: made the Bard the gnomes main class, but then gives them +2 con and -2 str, the DM said, "Since nobody wants to play gnomes, I'll allow +2 to Charisma instead of Con, if you want." I took him up on it and now have 22 Charisma at 9th level) so I have a large amount of spell usage and great DC's. I've focused on buffing the party, but I've also taken a few "save my butt" type of spells (gasous form being one of them). I start my horn (masterwork) to give them a +3 attack/damage for like 18 rounds (lingering song)...2nd round, I play another song from Song and Silence that increases bonuses: 0 first round, +1 second, +2 third, +3 at fourth, which stacks with the original +3...so by the 5th round, they are at +6 for that round...3rd and 4th rounds, I will buff anyone that I think needs it...then adjust my tactics to what is needed. It is a LOT of fun playing a Bard. I've been pleased with what I can do...now, what you can NOT do: Be the best at anything...you've got to accept that unless you need to BLUFF, using Glibness of course, you probably won't be the one "saving the day" or be over-powering, and that's fine with me. It's nice when the battle starts and the enemy looks at the gnome bard and laughs while they focus on the "real" spellcasters. I've never been the "main" target yet...close, but not yet. I wouldn't recommend a bard if you have 4 or less people...just my 2 cents. Also, do NOT cross-class. You're strongest support comes from the higher levels of "perform". Good luck and enjoy! No other class can you be so many different "classes". Cam
Abulafia 09-08-05, 05:59 PM	That's just the problem. I don't know how many players we'll have, but it'll likely only be four (we have a fifth, but he can't attend regularly, and so will probably be dropped soon). I'll have to wait and see what everyone else decides to play as first.Your bard can't replace a rogue (no one can, especially not on a dungeon crawl), and he can't replace a dedicated melee'er. At low levels, a bard will do all right as a replacement cleric (no one (except power gamers) is typically beating down the door to play a cleric). Pick up Leadership at 6th level and bring in a cohort cleric for when things get serious. You can try to replace the arcane caster this way, but 1) there will probably already be one in the party, and 2) waiting for your cohort to get higher-level spells will be agonizing and possibly lethal. If you can use it, be sure to check out the Sublime Chord PrC from Complete Arcane. Your DM will see your bard in a whole new light when he's casting 9th level spells!
JD 09-08-05, 06:05 PM	For a bit of background, this campaign is a semi-sequel to a 1st ed campaign my friends and I played when we were first getting into D&D. I was a fighter (I wanted to be a barbarian but, y'know, 1st ed), and we also had a halfling, elf, dwarf, cleric and magic user. The halfling won't be with us for the 3.5 version and the cleric looks doubtful. Directly translating how the other players used their characters, they'd probably translate to: Elven ranger Dwarven fighter Human wizard ...with me being a human barbarian. However, the loss of the halfling and cleric leaves us with a lot of ground to make up, especially in terms of a divine spellcaster. I'm going to talk with each of the other players and see whether they want to try and transfer their characters or create new ones.
moto 09-08-05, 06:22 PM	With suppliments yes, core only? not a chance.
Mighty Ranter 09-08-05, 06:51 PM	Dude, I used to DM for this group with a Gnome Bard. Without him, The Party probably wouldn't be able to pass my big, macho monster I put up for them. :D
SwiftFox 09-08-05, 07:06 PM	Its worth noting that the one thing the bard can do better than any other character is : break the diplomacy skill wide open. I first heard of this concept from Rich Burlew, http://www.giantitp.com/ creator of the online comic strip 'Order of the Stick' and one of the 3 finalists in that competition that resulted in the Ebberon campaign setting. His solution was to fix the diplomacy skill so that it couldnt be exploited in the following way : Read the skill; you can use it to change the attitudes of NPCs, from hostile to friendly... with a high enough skill check result you can basicly convert any enemy who can understand you into an ally. This normally requires a full minute per check, but you can make a rushed check as a full-round action by aking -10 to your result... which is an obstacle which can easily be overcome. The bard is the perfect class for exploiting this rule, because diplomacy is a class skill for him, and so are 3 other skills (bluff, sense motive, knowledge : nobility) that give a synergy bonus to diplomacy, and cha is the most important stat for bards anyway. There is a prestige class ideal for bards in 'complete divine', the Evangelist : its only a 5 level prestige class but it allows you to massively compliment your diplomacy abilities : at 2nd level of this class you can make rushed diplomacy checks at only -5 instead of -10, at 4th level you can always take 10 with a number of skills (including diplomacy), and at 5th level you can use a bardc music attempt to charm and convert any foe to your alignment for 1 week, which has a will save to resist but is complimented nicely by an abiliy gained at 1st level of this class, which allows you to use a bardic music attempt to inflict a -4 to all will saves to all foes, no save. The perfect race for this is the half-elf, who gains a +2 racial bonus to diplomacy checks, and there is a feat in 'races of destiny' that allows a half-elf to gain +3 from synergy bonus instead of +2, which grants a further +3 to diplomacy checks. If allowed to use the book of exalted deeds, ther are a few feats in that (sacred vow, nymph's kiss, vow of non-violence, vow of peace) that give substantial bonuses to diplomacy checks. The long and the short of it, is that a 9th level bard can have a diplomacy bonus of +40, and take 10 on all diplomacy checks, and make a diplomacy check as a full-round action at merely -5, for an automatic 45 in all diplomacy checks, converting the most bloodthirsty foe into a helpful NPC without a save A bard can essentially overcome every situation where it is possible fpr him to communicate with an enemy, without any combat whatsoever. I bet the rest of the party wont like that, eh? :D
Tedly224 09-08-05, 07:16 PM	Be a bard if you're going to be party member #5, agreed. Or even #4, if the party has at least 1 true warrior type and 1 true priest. Go for it especially if you can use the Complete series. If the party lacks a rogue, be a human, take rogue at level 1 and take Able learner as your racial bonus feat. If the rogue is covered, don't bother with that. Get in focus what you'd really like for the Bard to be able to do. You want him to be great at spellcasting? Eyeball the Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane. Do you want him to be better at fighting? Warchanter from Complete warrior is the ticket. The big thing though, if you're concerned about a dungeon crawl, is asking yourself the question "would I like to give myself and the party a +3 to hit, damage, and morale saves for an entire fight? At 3rd level???" Scope out Song of the Heart feat from the Eberron Campaign setting, and Enhanced Inspiration spell from Complete Adventurer. That's just the surface of the low level bard though. There's *so* much you can do with one really.
Quadstriker 09-08-05, 07:28 PM	Should I bite the bullet and roll up a bard Yes. I'll let others elaborate.
Callista 09-08-05, 08:31 PM	If you've got people filling all the other roles already, go ahead, if that's what you wish. You can RP just as well in a hack-and-slash campaign; only your character should be more of a light-hearted sort and change obviously if at all. Think of hack-and-slash as a movie with the depth of a Disney cartoon; and RP-heavy campaigns as something akin to the story in a classic novel, and you'll get the point. They're both great, but they have different emphasis. Anyway, the Bard is a class that's best for the epic-style storytelling, since his forte is really dealing with people and doing Diplomacy. However, he's second-best at everything the other classes are first-best at; which means you can stick him into a slot that gets emptied, where he can be a subpar replacement. However, in this sort of campaign, if I were you, I would play something with the same flavor as a Bard, but actually of a different class. For example, your basic Rogue has a lot of skill points--put some in Perform. Have your Sorcerer be really fond of telling tall tales. Or make a cleric who's dedicated to an ideal, like lore or music, or a goddess who espouses that. You don't have to be a Bard to be a bard, if that makes sense.
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-08-05, 08:39 PM	If your a bard, be creative, when your picking you skills have plans for them. Something I might do is, Assuming I was the same height as at least two other characters (or assuming everyone else is) use the disguise skill to make everyone look the same, if possible have a glamor spell ready to even make their equipment look the same(invest in Hats of disguise as soon as possible) and then to make it more fun, cast Mirror Image in battle. whats funner than fighting 12 of the same person all with different abilites. I dont know how well this would work but the point is be creative.
Solik 09-08-05, 09:15 PM	If you're playing in Faerun with UA, play a Divine Bard and prestige into my PrC Songmaiden of Selune. Now nobody else has to play a cleric -- you've got all the important divine magic covered, on top of your song abilities. Buy wands of curing spells and use your actual magics to charm and buff. To top it off, your weapon of choice should be the whip-dagger (A&E) since you get free proficiency with the weapon. Nothing like 15-foot disarm, trip, and d6 lethal damage. While singing. Your party will make fun of you for playing a fruity female pious bard. Until after the first session.
Nom 09-08-05, 10:55 PM	Bards are great, as long as you're not a "glory-boy". Think of team sports - the bard is the one who at the end of the season has few goals but many assists. If you get your kicks from what your character personally did, you won't enjoy the bard much. If you enjoy being the glue that holds everything together and makes the whole team work better, then bard might be just what you're looking for.
Rathje 09-09-05, 01:29 AM	Alright, I agree with everything posted above. On another note, the Bard prestige classes in the Completes are wonderful. Seeker of the Song (CAdv) is my personal favorite, and Warsinger (CW) could be nice for a dungeon crawl.
Maerdash 09-09-05, 02:12 AM	Ok im a little tired and having a little trouble thinking right now, so I'll only touch on one of the bards many talents (more to come) Fascinate: The dc for fascinate is the perform skill check so if you have a 31 the will save dc is a 31. High Cha, skill focus:perform,masterwork musical instrument, magic item that grants +10 or higher bonus to perform (yes they are there in the dmg if you just look for them), max ranks in perform = alot of encounters bypassed. You walk into a room where three ogres are playing cards they have large bloody great swords strapped to thier backs, to reach the door on the other side of the room you have to get past them so just fascinate away and walk on by, use this to save your and your parties spells/hp and the things you can't use it on are in a world of hurt as you start buffing the party and the wizard starts using all those spells that he no longer has to conserve. I'd play with that guy in my group and thats without any of the other nifty little things that the bard can do. By the way with the above feats/gear a 5th level bard averages a 36 on his perform check assuming a Cha of 16 and thats no where near what it could be. Next time we will explore how to use the hypnotism spell to full effect with your insane bluff skills and glibness. My advice is play the bard, look around on the boards for tips and ideas and then go show the cleric what TRUE power is.
JD 09-09-05, 05:13 AM	These are all great suggestions, thanks guys. Callista, I like your suggestion of "you don't have to be a bard to be a bard", but the main reason I'm going for a bard is to show my companions that the class doesn't suck. I'll definitely be using it to add flavour to any character I do play though. I'm probably going to be limited to Complete Warrior / Adventurer and Song and Silence outside of the core books (depending what the DM says), but there's plenty of good ideas (plus I've been taking a close look at the old Bards with Style series).
Gedrin 09-09-05, 05:15 AM	The problem with the bard is that people tend to play them as spoiled rock stars rather than loremasters, bearers of the sacred stories, or warrior poets. Here are two of many possible alternative role models for bards. David: came from humble beginings, warrior, charismatic leader, passionate, impulsive, weakness for women, wrote some of the Psalms. Solomon: learned, very wise, charismatic, mind for the future, wrote the Song of Solomon And one I think is somewhat funny, but has some charm to me: The Marine DI: warrior bard, strong, tough, party leader or right hand man, leads from the front. Inspire Competence: "YOU CALL THAT LOCKPICKING?! MY GRANDMOTHER COULD PICK A LOCK BETTER THAN THAT WITH HER GOOD EYE CLOSED! NOW GET THAT DOOR OPEN!" Not exactly a froo-froo bard.
hazel monday 09-09-05, 12:06 PM	by all means play a bard in a dungeon heavy campaign. if you're a masochist who enjoys hamstringing his party's general effectiveness.
Keenath 09-09-05, 12:26 PM	If there is no cleric, a bard can often fill the role adequately, with certain limitations: 1) Most of your healing will be between battles. Let the group know that they shouldn't expect to be getting more than a couple cure-serious spells in the thick of it, and plan accordingly. Emphasize that this may mean fleeing a battle that gets too hot. 2) Most of your healing will come from a wand. Get a CL 1 Cure Light wand. Everyone in the party should split the cost. If the DM likes really long dungeons, get two or three. It's the cheapest healing you can buy; between battles, you pull out the wand and spend half a minute with each party member, bringing them up to near full HP. Actually, 2) should apply to every adventuring party everywhere. That's the best way to take the "healing battery" roll off of the cleric; now he's only responsible for providing emergency cures when somebody is hit hard in a heavy melee. After the fight is over, get out the wand and let him save his spell slots!
JD 09-09-05, 01:05 PM	Well some more information has rolled off the presses regarding my companions' characters. We're gonna have a dwarven fighter, human wizard, human cleric (who may or may not be able to attend) and either a monk or rogue (race undecided). If that last guy goes for a rogue we'll have melee, thievery, arcane and divine all covered so the way looks set for a bard. edit: I honestly don't have a race planned yet but I'm probably going to concentrate on archery for my bard. I might give him a whip as well - I don't think anybody's really used trips or disarms in our group, and clever use of it could make me good buddies with the fighter.
Brastan 09-09-05, 01:34 PM	by all means play a bard in a dungeon heavy campaign. if you're a masochist who enjoys hamstringing his party's general effectiveness. :pbbbtt: Sounds like hack first, talk later. Bards require finesse to play and an understating of the skill rules. Bardic Music so very often under rated because it's a buffing effect most melee people don't acknowledge what it does for them. First round of combat while everyone is setting up and moving into position the bard uses Inspire Courage granting the party +1 At / + 1 Damage (that includes the bard). After that shut your yap and let the 5 rounds the affect lasts act like any spell would. Your bard now has five rounds of attacks or spells to use. Since you didn't dash in on the first round and circled around to flank for the fighter(if your doing melee style) give him and you a +2 to attacks. You have now netted the fighter +3 Attack / +1 Damage, a Power attacking can now take the majority of his BAB and (assuming a two-handed weapon) gets +0 attack / +7 damage at 3rd level. This will likely generate a cleave which gets the same power attacking bonuses. Combo with Mirror Image and "you" can flank against multiple targets at once. Inspire Greatness at 8th level so your melee fighter now has your +2 attack / +2 damage from your moral bonus Inspire Courage. Next round you give him greatness +2 competence bonus to attacks and an extra 2d10 + Con hp. For damage a two-handed weapon fighter Power Attacks up to your bonuses giving him a decent chance to hit with two attacks. He gains +10 damage per swing this way. Say you do this to a Mounted fighter with Spirited Charge and Lance thats +30, we're starting to get close to death by massive damage and still with 8 + Str + Weapon focus stuff to hit. At that point the bard as four rounds to himself with a +2 At / +2 Damage. Basically a fighters BAB with a bit of damage added on. [This includes ranged weapons don't forget] If you have the Eberron Source Book there are some feats for Bards that can make them that much better.
JD 09-09-05, 02:14 PM	Well I probably won't be going a melee route... not at first, at least. I'll pick up Weapon Finesse at level 3 and then a rapier / whip combo will look very nice. I'll probably go for an elf as far as race goes. +2 dex will make combat go all the smoother, and those sharper senses will be handy in a dungeon environment.
Nithendil 09-09-05, 04:49 PM	CORE vs non-CORE bard is like night and day. Both can be fun, but some of the bard specific feats should have been in the CORE rules IMO.
Origin 09-09-05, 09:26 PM	Well I probably won't be going a melee route... not at first, at least. I'll pick up Weapon Finesse at level 3 and then a rapier / whip combo will look very nice. I'll probably go for an elf as far as race goes. +2 dex will make combat go all the smoother, and those sharper senses will be handy in a dungeon environment. OOO OOOO PICK ME!! PICK ME!! Get the Ranged Disarm feat from.. Complete Warrior I think?? Whichever book that has the Order of the Bow Initiate in it.. anyways, great feat, they can't get a chance to disarm you in retaliation, even if they do use a bow or whatever. Although I kinda like the Whip of Blades with the trip and disarm feats.. I made use of them once before. Great. They work great, so if your gonna use ranged, I really suggest getting the Ranged Disarm feat. Not as helpful when you hit around level 10 and start fighting more monsters without weapons, but you will always find monsters and other enemies that have weapons. THAT INCLUDES MAGES (wizards.. but mage is what they should be called) WANDS!! And staves. And others stuff.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 09-10-05, 11:52 AM	Improved initative and fasinate are a great combination, if you can keep the rest of the party from wacking things at the start. Make sure you take tounges as a spell, then add a good suggestion on top. At this point, who needs the rest of the party, like Orpheus in Hades, sing your way in and out of hell. Lingering song and extra bardic music from Song and Silence (3.0 but doesn't blow any thing out of proportion in 3.5) Nymph's kiss feat from Exhaulted Deeds is a great idea. Bardic Knowledge is better than Gather Info as far as skills go. And glammered armor, so you are always in style...
MSW 09-16-05, 05:46 PM	Bards generally work well in city and towns. They are good at everything, but masters of nothing. That's why Bards make great additions to the basic four party adventure group that has the other bases covered. A Bard could do well in a dungeon crawl campaign, though not directly. Their best ability is to be able to enhance the party with their music, and the whole party will apprieciate that. If you want to play a charming bard that can enchant people, a dungeon crawl campaign won't be fun. Also if your group of players tends to be the "Look! Orcs on the trail up ahead, let's rush them and attack!!" type, a bard looses 80% of his effectiveness, since you can't use diplomacy or charm creatures that the rest of the party is going to threaten and attack. If you do go Bard for a dungeon crawl, stay away from the charm/enchantment spells, and instead work towards utility and combat spells. Go for Invisibility & Summon Monster spells, and your Bard can play his music to buff everyone up, and invisibly summon critters to help fight the bad guys. Max out Use Magic Device, and get some wands to help stretch your spells (like cure light wounds and Cat's Grace/Bull's Strength/Enlarge). Lingering song and Subsonics are also two great feats to have, especially for a dungeon run campaign.
yellowdingo 09-17-05, 01:01 AM	Bards write the true histories, spread the rumors, Advertise drinking holes, and can fell an evil overlord with a nasty limerick. "Welcome to the Guild town of Loen, Where the Ale keeps a'flowen and the Farmers Daughters are showin some leg. For though we ain't got the gold, that the rich folks all have stoled We have the lovely thighs of Sara and Meg. Ever it's a strawberry taste I desire, I'll find here in Loen a chance to retire At least until their father catches us in bed. Just long enough to take my leave, As sudden as the fresh air rustles leaves T'wasn't me sir no, my hair's dyed red!" -from The Ballad of Loen If your band of Raiders like to poison village wells, who do they think will spread the rumors of plague- certainly not the horde of wolves covered in blood who just came from the village in question, but rather the lone Bard who rapidly returns from his next engagement to inform everyone why the show is canceled. "Woe! There be Plague in lower Burkwart. The twisted corpes of Villagers line the only road to it, and an Evil air prevented my further approach. We must warn the Baron to post Guards and watch for sickness." -Aran the Traveler, In the Guild town of Loen.
danielinthewolvesden 09-17-05, 01:48 PM	His adventures tend to be extremely long dungeon crawls, and I'm not sure if a bard would do too well in those conditions. Unless the party is very large, a bard won't do well in this type of game. Try a Marshal instead.
JD 09-17-05, 02:09 PM	Wow, this topic's bounced right back up. Thanks for all the info guys. We haven't had a character creation session yet (getting everyone in the same place at the same time is proving difficult, but it should settle down once the uni terms are underway) but I'll likely be going with a gnome bard, and kitting him out to be a decent archer (PBS as first feat and Precise Shot for 3rd level). Spellwise, I'm looking at Hideous Laughter and Silent Image for my 1st-level ones, and there's plenty that I know I'll want later, like Grease. CLWs will probably be ignored until later on, as we have a cleric and wands of CLWs are only 750GP (that's 15GP a charge!). I haven't actually selected a full set of cantrips yet, but plenty of those such as prestidigation and light are no-brainers. Before anyone else starts throwing things out, my DM has confirmed that this adventure will be core-only. I might be able to persuade him to take a peek at Song & Silence or ComAdv later on, but I'm not holding my breath.
High Octane 09-17-05, 02:48 PM	Get improved trip and/or disarm. Once that is done, use your bardic singing first rround. It lasts for 5 mnore rounds after that, so spend that time afterwards buffing your allies with spells or trying to disarm or trip your opponents with a whip. You need combat expertise to get improved trip/disarm, so you can get behind an enemy to flank them and give your ally a +2 to attack while you fight defensively and use combat expertise to make you impossible to hit (If your enemy is undisarmable or untrippable) Also you can be one hell of a charmer and sneaker so the rogue can focus on more int based skills. Inspire competance means you are a walking +2 to most skill checks. Inspire heroism between inspire courage! Make everyone else do better at what they do!
JD 09-17-05, 05:13 PM	I was considering sacrificing Precise Shot and taking Weapon Finesse at 3rd level. With a whip / rapier, that would make a decent close-quarters bard, although the low BAB, AC and HP would make it unwise to fight from that position for any considerable length of time. I also had to consider what my position would be if my Dex wasn't all that impressive (when I first thought of the feat, I was still in a rogue-ish mindset). Having looked at the feats you recommended, that would craft a very nice bard for tripping / disarming. A bard with Improved Disarm gets a total of +6 to his attack roll! I'm sort of at a cross-roads then. Do I become a close-quarters specialist or an archer? The close-quarters deal sounds much sweeter, especially as far as impressing my team-mates goes.
J.Augustus Rose II 09-17-05, 05:16 PM	Unless the party is very large, a bard won't do well in this type of game. Try a Marshal instead. Funny, I'm playing a bard in a dungeon heavy campaign where there's only two other players and I'm the one who's saved the day on more than one occasion. Even the munchkin fighter of the group can't hold a candle to the stuff I can do if I put some thought and creativity into it.
yellowdingo 09-17-05, 10:09 PM	Personally I think the DM should force Bards to cough up real results. "So your Bard sings for his supper? Lets hear it."
cambric 09-17-05, 10:39 PM	Personally I think the DM should force Bards to cough up real results. "So your Bard sings for his supper? Lets hear it." Excellent idea...really! And then we'll have the wizard shoot a fireball out of his *****...and the monk can get up and out run a horse...oh yeah, and the cleric can raise the dead while we're at it. :D Cam
TinManFan 09-17-05, 10:47 PM	"So your fighter hacks the orcs arm off? Here, do it to me <Hands over a sword>" Do you think they sould do that too Mr. dingo? Kudos on Bard-dom. Playing my first one and luvin it. I went the Epic Poetry type guy, who goes around spouting about some hero of acient yore whose tales always seem to involve the beastie we're fighting. Luckily we're low enough level that I don't have to make up a poem about the 1/2 Illithid Feral Fiendish T-Rex the guy fought back in the day. My, he got around. Rolled crap for stats but did get a nifty 18 for Cha (Now a 20). Got me a whip dagger and a Goliath Greathammer (x4 crit, so pretty) and a DM who hasn't read the rules for charm and faccinate. "Its will save is WHAT?" My advice for D-Crawling, go with buff spells and let the wizard fry things. Once yer done buffing, trip everything without extra legs you come across. Awknowledge that your Facinate will be tough to use all that often (Not many dungeon critters sit down for coffee with the PCs sent to destroy them but ya never know). Altho, for fun, if yer DM relaxes the core only thing, make up a goliath Bard and do the runnign tally thing they like to do. Keep track of every point of damage your Inspires give out and such. Then point this out to everyone. All the time. At royal balls.
AtomicPope 09-18-05, 03:44 AM	Bards are the best support character bar none. With the right feats, spells, and instruments you'll add +3 or more to the Inspire Courage song alone. I play a bard in an Ebberon campaign and he's the most important character in the party. Since most of the characters have a fighter BAB (paladin, ranger, fighter(s), Exocist) with the closest thing to a cleric being a Druid. At 10th level my Inspire Courage gives a +5 Morale Bonus to weapon attack (Inspire Courage +2, Special Instrument +1, Spell:Inspirational Boost +1, Feat:Song of the Heart +1) and damage. Then I switch to Inspire Greatness and add +3 Competence Bonus to Hit, +3 Fort saves, and +3D10 Hit Dice (the additional +1 is from Song of the Heart feat) to each of the fighters every round one at a time. The songs last for a full minute (Lingering Song Feat) after hearing them so there's little to worry about the bonuses running out. I can hardly think of a class that can give fighters +8 to hit and +5 to damage, Haste them, and Heal them. I also do all of the fast talking because with Glibness my Bluff checks are +52. We have an Artificer and no real Wizard so I do the Teleporting with the Mark of Orien. Can I fight? Only when we really need it. Just do a few Arcane Strikes and against Undead, Constructs, and Elementals I'm much better than a Rogue. The only problem with a Bard is the player. If you have to be the glory hound, in the thick of it, then play someone else. If you can handle the R-O-L-E of the game, support the fighters, and carouse your way to the next adventure then you too can play a Bard.
JD 09-18-05, 08:59 AM	Personally I think the DM should force Bards to cough up real results. "So your Bard sings for his supper? Lets hear it." I'm not a LARPer, and even if I was I doubt anyone at the table (or in adjacent rooms) would thank me for actually singing. About the only competence bonus my singing can inspire is a +10 to intimidate checks.
CaoSlayer 09-18-05, 09:46 AM	Check my guide, it is a bit outdated, but still useful. :) ummm, most spells from Song and silence are crap but two: Improvisation and Fanfare. By the time if you can buy a scroll of fanfare it is a great one, stuns everyone in a cone for 1d4 rounds without save it is priceless in a BBEG fight. Since you are in a reduced party, you should specialize, there are three things a bard can do in a round: attack, sing or cast. Since you are unnable to do all those sings at once, its a good idea to focus in one and forget in other. By example since you have some complete books you can get the bardic specialization prcs: If you love to melee, you can try the warchanter, the warchanter it is a perfect prc for low charisma bards since they have not spells and bardic music dont need charisma (you can use all your songs with charisma 8). If you love to cast, you get the Sublime chord, it is like becoming a battle sorcerer of UA but with neat more skill points and some nice songs. And finally if you wants to sing everyround the seeker of the chord or the virtuoso are your prcs, they get more diary uses of bardic music and allows to use two songs at once. The whip it is a great option for a bard where it is a rogue in the party, just trip the enemy before the rogue´s acts and so he can sneak attack like no tomorrow. If you hold a whip with two hands you will get the +4 bonus, there is a weapon enchantment that grants a +2 to trip and the improved trip feat, you can become a tripping monster easily.
AtomicPope 09-18-05, 06:36 PM	Check my guide, it is a bit outdated, but still useful. :) ummm, most spells from Song and silence are crap but two: Improvisation and Fanfare. By the time if you can buy a scroll of fanfare it is a great one, stuns everyone in a cone for 1d4 rounds without save it is priceless in a BBEG fight. SaS isn't 3.5 updated. Improvisation has changed and exists in one of the new books (Complete Adv. I think) but I'm sure Fanfare is gone. Fortissimo is definitely gone. Admittedly, using Fortissimo in conjuction with a Horn of Blasting or Pipes of Pain and it's really broken.
Judging Eagle 09-19-05, 03:11 AM	Unless the party is very large, a bard won't do well in this type of game. Try a Marshal instead. Yes! Actually... Make a Marshall 4-5/Bard. I'd recomend taking as your minor auras: - motivate strength (you Charisma modifier to all str checks (trip, bull rush, grapple) as well as all str-based skill checks (jump, climb, swim) -(maybe motivate will if you have low will save party members, but not often does that happen) -motivate charisma (oh yes, double your charisma modifier when you need it for diplomacy >:D) For a major aura, the one that adds +1 to all saves for allies is probably best. If you want a 2nd major aura you'll go to lvl 5 marshall. You might want to go to lvl 4 marshall to get grant move action 1/day. Yes, you can 'grant' any ally a move action as an action (you don't get to take one as well; think of it like a platoon sergent yelling at the grunts to get their asses in gear and making sure that they actually move forward instead of sitting with their tumbs up their butts). This is amazing for completely reworking how the battlefield is setup since your party can get a run action (4x move) then act in their own turn and potentially avoid any 'grunt' enemies and gang-up on the boss/wizard/leader and kill them and potentially make the 'grunts' get scared and simply run off. Also, with your bard, grab a horn (check the bard's handbook linked from the optimization library by funny slaughter; it tells you it's source) to add +2 to attack and damage rolls instead of +1 (but you don't get the +2 bonus to fear-causing effects). If you take words of creation (BoED feat, I don't think it had any pre-req.s) you can double your bardic music abilities (from +2 t +4 to all attack and damage rolls....you do however take like 3d4 subdual damage, but sub damage is not too bad, just don't get sub damage=you hp). Right there... at less than say.. level 3 you can give the party the effects of FOUR spell Prayers (lvl 3, so a 5th lvl cleric, and it's a +1 buff that doesn't stack) buffing your party. The nice thing is that marshall's have decent hp (d8), skill foc (diplomacy) as a free lvl 1 feat, decent skill pts/lvl (4), a nice diplomacy/bard skill list (with perform, speak languages, diplomacy on it), and proficiency with all weapons/armour (no tower sheilds but w/e; your bard can use a comp longbow for more damage). Also, it's got good fort and will saves.
Tedly224 09-19-05, 04:31 AM	" If you hold a whip with two hands you will get the +4 bonus, there is a weapon enchantment that grants a +2 to trip and the improved trip feat, you can become a tripping monster easily. " I couldn't help but see this bit and wonder exactly where that rule is from. The using 2 hands with a whip to gain a +4 bonus on the strength check to trip. It's not my intent to derail the thread, but does anyone know if this is valid and if so, where it's from? Is it a 3.0 holdover?
CaoSlayer 09-19-05, 06:34 AM	" If you hold a whip with two hands you will get the +4 bonus, there is a weapon enchantment that grants a +2 to trip and the improved trip feat, you can become a tripping monster easily. " I couldn't help but see this bit and wonder exactly where that rule is from. The using 2 hands with a whip to gain a +4 bonus on the strength check to trip. It's not my intent to derail the thread, but does anyone know if this is valid and if so, where it's from? Is it a 3.0 holdover? It is that if you hold a normal weapon with two hands, you can considere it two handed. it is common sense that if you wrap a thing and pull it with the two hands it is easier to take it. If 3.0 was worse, since you also got another +4 if the weapon was a size category larger. Quote from srd: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. ---- from weapons. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. Two-Handed Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. EDIT: if you dont accept it, when you have to acept than a bastard sword gets a +4 ever when used one-handed.
JD 09-19-05, 06:45 AM	That's a good point, and playing a gnome will mean I'll be looking for all the bonuses I can get on that strength check. Trying to disarm people might be better. Using a whip two-handed gives me a +6, then a further +4 with Improved Disarm. Of course, that will (in most cases) get removed due to size mods... gah. edit: I see your logic, but there's nothing in the rules about a bonus from using a whip two-handed in a trip attempt. Disarm yes, trip no.
CaoSlayer 09-19-05, 07:03 AM	you are right... umm, weird thing, should be easier to trip someone with a big weapon.
JD 09-19-05, 07:15 AM	If I was DMing it I'd consider letting the attacker use 1.5x their strength mod on the strength check if they used a weapon two-handed, but that's all.
Longarms 09-19-05, 09:52 AM	"With a whip / rapier, that would make a decent close-quarters bard, although the low BAB, AC and HP would make it unwise to fight from that position for any considerable length of time." How about instead you use a small sized whip and a small sized sized spiked chain? (That is a one handed weapon and a light weapon so only -2/-2 w/ two-weapon fighting). Sure you get an additional -2 to your attacks since the weapons are not properly sized for you, but you can fight at a distance. Also, I think you can feint just as well.
CaoSlayer 09-19-05, 10:13 AM	while the HP it is true, the low AC and to hit thing it is a common lie. Bards thanks to competence with armor and shield, can have a non-magical +6 to AC with a 5% Arcane spell fail, (the mithril shield), with the money required for the second weapon, you can aford a great armor-shield set having a good AC at any level. Then, at the middle levels, cast displacement, blink or improved invisibility and the bard gets in addition to the midly high AC (usually nobody uses heavy armor and shield) a 50% protection against the enemies, this can be translated as doubling the hp because half of the blows that would hit the bard will be miss. of course, you dont usually need that protection if you are using a whip being afar the melee zone, an archer or a spell-song slinger.
Dougbert 09-19-05, 11:51 AM	The bard is actually a powerful class for a player with a little ingenuity who doesn't mind not being the front line in most situations. With their mix of abilities a bard, more so than almost any other class, is able to step up and 'save the day' when something unexpected happens. The entire party gains by having a bard...as long as the melee and magic areas are already covered.
Judging Eagle 09-19-05, 12:34 PM	That's a good point, and playing a gnome will mean I'll be looking for all the bonuses I can get on that strength check. Trying to disarm people might be better. Using a whip two-handed gives me a +6, then a further +4 with Improved Disarm. Of course, that will (in most cases) get removed due to size mods... gah. edit: I see your logic, but there's nothing in the rules about a bonus from using a whip two-handed in a trip attempt. Disarm yes, trip no. If you want to trip people... you're going to be taking at least a -4 penalty since you're a small sized creature if you try to trip medium sized ones, and -8 vs large ones and -12 vs huge ones (and they'll get more to their rolls if they have more than 2 legs). You might want to go for a human, or half-elf bard instead, or elf. Also, since you -will- have a high charisma modifier you can add it to any of your str-checks (like tripping) or str-based skill checks (you're going to have to climb, jump or swim eventually) by taking a level of marshall (minis hand book).
JD 09-20-05, 05:05 AM	Yeah, I could see the small race thing biting me in the bum here, but I've already gotten some nice ideas for a gnome bard. Guess I'll concentrate on archery instead? Combat Expertise is a nice feat, especially if you're going to be at mid / close range, but Point Blank Shot gives you a +1 to attack and damage rolls within 30'. Combine that with the additional +1s from Inspire Courage and that's pretty deadly for a low-level character. I'll definitely be slinging a whip in my pack though. A long-range trip or disarm may just save my skin someday...
FireHeart 09-20-05, 12:17 PM	I'll also toss my support in here for the whip and something combo. I'm currently playing a bard in a city based, intrigue game. City based - lots of close quarters type fighting. I'm currently using rapier/whip combination. (Take the oversize weapon feat from CW (I think?)...allows you to TWF at a -2/-2.) Remember the whip has a 10or15ft reach. So I try to stay at the back of the party and disarm. Remember you only provoke an AOC disarming if someone's near enough to threaten you. This allows that other players to close and fight people who are disarmed. It's worked really well. Oh, and Sing...remember that your compatriots have to hear you for a round before things like inspire courage take effect so start singing as soon as possible. That +1 to hit may not seem like a lot but it has come in really handy. ~Fireheart
tiercel 09-20-05, 09:42 PM	Don't forget Use Magic Device. Seriously. At the very lowest levels it won't be tremendously useful, but it won't be unusable either. Heck, by 5th level you could have a cloak of charisma +2 and a circlet of persuasion (both of which are very good bard items, not just for UMD) and have +15 to your UMD checks. That's an 80% chance to successfully use any wand or staff in the game, at 5th level. By time you get into the midlevels, you can be stocking a heward's handy haversack with scrolls. Every scroll another party member doesn't want/need, and those you buy yourself -- you're Batman, you always have a neat trick for any given situation. All those special spells that are unique use? You're ready. At high levels, you can make those people who made fun of you weep at your mightiness in single, important encounters: try being a polymorphed divine powered iron bodied warrior fueled by righteous might and wielding a holy sword. By time you are in the mid levels, your Diplomacy will be able to stop fights before they start to virtually anything you can speak with (which, with tongues, could be pretty much everything). Big dumb bruisers in a dungeon crawl? Mere chattel before your glitterdusts and confusions, and when you find some you like, just charm monster them. (Thank you Mr. DM, may I have another?) One of the best parts about being a bard is that, contrary to what many (even here) may think, it is EASIER to be a hero. Everyone expects the mage to rain fiery doom upon the heads of his enemies or the cleric to save the stalwart fighter in the nick of time. Nobody expects the bard to, so when you come "off the bench" to save the day, it's something people remember :) As an added benefit, monsters tend to target the guy swinging the big chunk of metal that hurts them so much, or the guy shooting fire from his hands at them. Not so much the guy singing and occasionally making them feel all confused.
Judging Eagle 09-20-05, 11:58 PM	Well, it doesn't matter which way you intend your character to go. You're going to get a charisma of at least 16. With a level of marshall you can add that to one of a number of different things that affect both yourself and all allies within 60' that can hear and or see you (your DM will probably just enforce the "hear" you) as long as you are capable of speaking to your allies: Stat Checks and Stat based skill checks -Str (ex. trip, bull rush, grapple; jump, climb, swim) Handy if you have a very active party that deals with non-standard terrain or if you have characters that make use of tactical feats. Great if you've got a bunch of raging barbarians who grapple enemies while your party rogue gets tons of free sneak attacks, or while a second grappler assists and helps pin the target. -dex (balance, hide, move silently) Also, this affect initiative checks for your whole party. I've seen parties where higher dex members can get Initiative results of... exceeding 30 and sometimes almost 40. Good for getting the drop on an enemy. Great for lots of high dex characters to buff their skills and initiative checks. -Con (concentration) sort of useless, motivate fortitude adds more to fort saves instead -Int (crafting, knowledge, spellcraft, decipher script) Semi-useful, this is really good if you play RPGA's living greyhawk and have a very high int wizard with tons and tons of points into as many different knowledge skills (you need one rank to use any knowledge skill since you can't use any untrained) can help figure out what enemies are, history of locations or items that the PCs would find. Not that useful overall though. -Wis (listen, spot, sense motive, survival) Not that bad, best for wilderness based campaigns where you can get snuck up upon from far away or certain diplomatic based campaigns. -Charisma (bluff, diplomacy, Use Magic Device) Yeah, that's right. You can DOUBLE your charisma modifer to all skill checks with one lvl of marshall. Since you'll have high Cha and wear Cha boosting gear, being able to double your cha based skill modifiers will help you a lot. Plus it will help any party membes (such as rogues) on their own UMD checks Personally, taking a lvl of marshall or two and then going pure warlock and taking a few craft item feats allows for a very broken character who 'could' at level 12 craft up to 9th level divine magic items (making arcane spell items has a lower DC by I think 10 and Divine needs a UMD DC of I think almost 30 or just over, with craft wonderous you can start making gear to buff your own guy out like making cloaks of Cha, gloves of dex, boots of whatever). Other minor auras -Add Cha mod to: -one type of save: fort, reflex and will each are a seperate minor aura; pretty useful for most parties since later on magic ends up being save-or-die, hard to decide on which to pick though. -bull rush, trip, sunder, disarm checks (semi-useful, motivate str does all this except sunder which most ppl don't usually do anyway) -confirming critical hits (could be useful if you have party members who are dual scimitar using dervish/tempests who also have power critical (+4 to confirm a crit) so they could get at least +5 to confirm a crit or +8 or higher; so-so in usefulness imo. -bonus AC when you/allies provoke an AoO (good for parties who rush past grunts to hit the boss, better when the person in question has mobility as well), not super-useful imo though -bonus to damage when flanking an enemy; ... not bad, not amazing since the damage won't scale to monsters as you go up in levels, unless you take the Superior Flanking team work benefit out of DMG2 (all team members count as flanking a target as long as two actually do flank a target). If you go for a 2nd lvl of marshall you can get a +1 to any number of things for yourself/allies: -melee attack rolls, not too bad -ranged attack rolls, same as above -damage rolls, meh -AC, meh, there's better ways to buff AC -ALL saves (it's like giving everyone a free cloak of resistance, or a +1 to their existin cloaks) -give all affected DR 1/-, too low to be useful imo -give +5' movement to all in area of effect, semi-useful Also it shares a lot of class skills (like diplomacy, perform, speak language), moderate skill pts 4 + int mod, an average HD (d8), proficiency with all weapons/armours/sheilds (not tower) so you can use a comp longbow if you so choose. The only problem is that it's hard to choose a good aura that you will use often.
CaoSlayer 09-21-05, 05:22 AM	The only problem is that it's hard to choose a good aura that you will use often. And that you are delaying the progress of the spellcasting/songs and since I think the marshall it is a medium bab class, you also get lesser bab. Still, I see the marshall as a good combination if you are aiming to warchanter, with the song that allows to max your bab and that you will not use spellcasting , isnt a big backdraw.
JD 09-30-05, 05:54 PM	Thread revival! Well, we finally got the character creation sesion over and done with. I'm a gnome bard and my companions are a dwarf fighter, human rogue, human druid and human cleric. Some of the bard-hate has disappated slightly - in fact, one of the players was giving me kudos for having a go at playing what's often considered to be the worst race and the worst class. The only problems I can see arising are these: - The party's entire arcane spellcasting prowess rests on my tiny shoulders - The cleric is something of a daydreamer (both player and character), tries to make friends with the monsters and has a str of 5 To help with the former, I've maxed UMD and am later planning to buy plenty of wands and scrolls. The DM doesn't run magic-heavy campaigns, so we should be okay. I've also got some alchemists' fire and a tanglefoot bag handy. To help with the latter, I've packed a wand of CLW. I think it'll be getting some use. Oh, spell-wise I took Hideous Laughter and Silent Image for 1st-level. My cantrips were Light, Detect and Read Magic, Mage Hand and Message.
Goblin Recruit 10-01-05, 10:49 AM	MY first character was a bard, had a lot of fun. If your nervous about approaching travellers, fascinate them. I got my group into a rouge/ gypsy camp. Much better place to stay than the open road. My group was pretty rough and ragged, so no one tried to steal from us. I healed more than the cleric when I was in the dungeon, and cut up some bad guys while helping the insane fighter. Didn't use Inspire courage once (forgot), and no one complained. However, this was a big group, so I have no idea what it would do in a small group.
Amphetryon 10-05-05, 11:17 PM	Go to the Character Optimization board, and click on the stickied 'Link to CO Library'. Find the Bard handbook there. You'll read the creations of a young lady who goes by Snow Savant. Pay close attention to what she preaches. I'd rather go against a Frenzied Berzerker build than against one of her Bards..... :teach:
Always-Late 10-06-05, 01:31 AM	If this dungeon/campaign is undead-heavy, you could try for Requiem. (Libris Mortis.) It lets you sing to undead.
CaoSlayer 10-06-05, 01:07 PM	Still, a CLW wand it is a wonderful weapon against the undead, it is like a touch attack mace that deals 1d8+1 damage (or half). :P jejeje, sugest to your cleric pal to use santuary and/or protection from evil a lot of, that will keep him from being hit too often.
JD 10-07-05, 09:32 AM	Well we played our first session yesterday, and the bard seems to be working quite well. I haven't had any call to use spells yet, but the various +1 bonuses I get are stacking very well. I've been able to get a +8 total attack bonus with my shortbow. :D