Is it worth the level adjustment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is it worth the level adjustment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bassist33333
02-05-06, 05:20 PM Well, here's the scoop. My current DM is in the need of a new character. The group is at level 6 or 7 right now and my character does not fit the campaign as well as planned. The character he needs is an evil necromancer, so I am going to take up a cleric character with the death and destruction domains. I will probably pick up the Blackguard class as well when I have enough levels to do so.
The dillemma: My DM would prefer if my character were a half-fiend. Now, the level adjustment for half-fiend is +4. This campaign is only going until level 10, so I would only be able to get my character up to level 4 or 5 probably anyway, and I would start at level 2, which isn't that great, especially since evil clerics barely get any spells at low levels. However, I do really like the half-fiend's special abilities (such as flight and bite and claws, also resistance to poison). So my question is, would it be worth the level adjustment to become a half-fiend, or should I just be human? I was also thinking about suggesting the idea of a Tiefling (LA +1), but that barely gets any of the items that I like about the half-fiend. So...for anyone who's used a level adjusted template (since I've never been anything that needed that drastic of an LA), is it worth it?
I'd appreciate any help.

Thanks.
Surgo
02-05-06, 06:21 PM Are you playing this character for your DM or you?

A +4 LA would crush you. Even a +1 LA on a caster class like cleric sucks a lot more than it helps. I wouldn't do it.
bassist33333
02-05-06, 06:41 PM Are you playing this character for your DM or you?

A +4 LA would crush you. Even a +1 LA on a caster class like cleric sucks a lot more than it helps. I wouldn't do it.
Well, yeah. It's just that I want to make a new character and my DM needs a new character for his campaign that he would otherwise introduce as an NPC. I'm thinking about striking a deal with him to get rid of some of the LA in exchange for some ability points, maybe.
CryoSilver
02-05-06, 06:47 PM I suggest you ask him if you can play a tiefling instead, and just play up the supposed fiendish heritage.

You'll take a hit to Charisma, which will affect your ability to rebuke some, but not to an unreasonable degree.
bassist33333
02-05-06, 07:11 PM Well, I was planning on having him have pretty crappy Cha anyways, because his pasttimes include burning buildings, killing innocents, and biting peoples' faces off...but yeah. I'm going to miss the wings though. :(
RogerWilco
02-05-06, 07:16 PM Isn't there some feat that can give you those in one of teh compete series, if you have demonic heritage?

EDIT: found the feat: it's in Races of faerun:
Ousider Wings: Prerequisites: Aasimar of Thiefling, base saves +2, Celestial bloodline ror Fiendish bloodline. Basically it allows you to fly at your land speed, average man.

Fiendish bloodline requires Fey-ri, tanarukk or thiefling, all saves +1.
You get protection from good 3/day and bane 1/day at CL=char level.

So with 2 feats you can play a LA+1 and have some of the abilities you want too.
bassist33333
02-05-06, 08:35 PM Isn't there some feat that can give you those in one of teh compete series, if you have demonic heritage?

EDIT: found the feat: it's in Races of faerun:
Ousider Wings: Prerequisites: Aasimar of Thiefling, base saves +2, Celestial bloodline ror Fiendish bloodline. Basically it allows you to fly at your land speed, average man.

Fiendish bloodline requires Fey-ri, tanarukk or thiefling, all saves +1.
You get protection from good 3/day and bane 1/day at CL=char level.

So with 2 feats you can play a LA+1 and have some of the abilities you want too.
Sweet! Thanks, man! That helps a lot.

Does anyone know if Tieflings have fangs as well? I mean, I'm going to play out my Half-fiend bloodline, and from the Tiefling description it says:
"[Some Tieflings] have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet."
However, it doesn't say if any of these can be useful in anyway (like could it have the bite attack with pointed teeth?).
Thanks for the help.
Rassul
02-05-06, 08:48 PM For a caster, I say no.

I started out with a half fiend cleric and the stat boosts and racial abilities aren't worth the level adjustment penalties. It is nice to take to the air and rain spells down on your foes, but it's better to stand there and blast them with spells twice as powerful.

Also, if you're a necromancer charisma is going to be your key stat along with wisdom.

The half fiend template would be awesome with a ranger or a fighter. It's just going to gimp a spellcaster.

Also, I don't see why you're so set on scratching and biting. Both suck in comparison to an attack with a weapon. IMO, having a huge army of skeletons, wraiths, and vampires is much cooler than biting someone. And at least ten times as effective.
Talen Lee
02-05-06, 09:06 PM Dear, dear, dear, dear god no.

As a caster, it never is.

(Exception being for the White Draconian from Dragonlance, which is, by a hairy eyeball, busted.)
bassist33333
02-05-06, 09:12 PM For a caster, I say no.

I started out with a half fiend cleric and the stat boosts and racial abilities aren't worth the level adjustment penalties. It is nice to take to the air and rain spells down on your foes, but it's better to stand there and blast them with spells twice as powerful.

Also, if you're a necromancer charisma is going to be your key stat along with wisdom.

The half fiend template would be awesome with a ranger or a fighter. It's just going to gimp a spellcaster.

Also, I don't see why you're so set on scratching and biting. Both suck in comparison to an attack with a weapon. IMO, having a huge army of skeletons, wraiths, and vampires is much cooler than biting someone. And at least ten times as effective.
Well, I just think that in more one-on-one close range combat, it'd be nice to have an unarmed strike (and bite would do 1d6+1 along with claws which are 1d4 I think).
But I'm going to go with the Tiefling anyways. Also, the reason I really want wings is because I know that in this current campaign, with this DM, they could come in extremely handy. He likes putting us in situations where we have to swim, climb, run across ice, etc, and bypassing those would be pretty nice. :D
Rassul
02-05-06, 09:29 PM Well, I just think that in more one-on-one close range combat, it'd be nice to have an unarmed strike (and bite would do 1d6+1 along with claws which are 1d4 I think).
But I'm going to go with the Tiefling anyways. Also, the reason I really want wings is because I know that in this current campaign, with this DM, they could come in extremely handy. He likes putting us in situations where we have to swim, climb, run across ice, etc, and bypassing those would be pretty nice. :D

I respect your opinion and by no means want to discourage you from playing the way you find most fun. That is, after all, the entire point of the game. I'd just like to say as having just played as a half fiend cleric the bite and scratch abilities will be completely useless to you. I never used them once, the only time I would is if I dropped my primary and secondary weapons. They just aren't as effective as an armed strike.

Also, you can have the ability to fly without the level adjustment and the extra feat. Just have your party seek out and kill a winged creature, then have it serve you as a mount from beyond the grave. To me it would be a lot cooler flying around on a giant dragon or eagle than using your own wings. Also, it could carry your fellow party members. It doesn't do you much good to transverse a difficult obstacle if you just have to stand on the other side and wait for the rest of your party. It's even less fun when you get to the other side of the obstacle and are forced to fight the baddies alone.

Just my two copper.

And finally, I must say I envy you. I've been fascinated by necros since Diablo 2 but am unable to play one because our group includes a paladin.
Vanigo
02-05-06, 09:43 PM As a caster, it never is.

(Exception being for the White Draconian from Dragonlance, which is, by a hairy eyeball, busted.)
Pixie can be made to work, too; the constant invisibility is a godsend and they've got great mental stats. It's suboptimal, but not unworkable.
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-05-06, 10:01 PM And finally, I must say I envy you. I've been fascinated by necros since Diablo 2 but am unable to play one because our group includes a paladin.
Trick godboy into associating with evil you until he loses his class features, kill him while he's thus weakened, and make him your first undead servant? :devil:
Talen Lee
02-05-06, 10:17 PM Play a Lawful Neutral Cleric of a Lawful Neutral God of Death, and treat undead as a fundamentally useful and harmless creature that's just used the wrong way. Argue with the Paladin that if he has a problem with it, that it's his, since his morality is not necessarily yours, and you're not hurting anyone.

Contract people so that once they die (of natural causes), you are entitled to their bodies (for necromantic purposes), and keep all your deals above board. Utilize skeletons as a type of factory labour.
Rassul
02-05-06, 10:25 PM Trick godboy into associating with evil you until he loses his class features, kill him while he's thus weakened, and make him your first undead servant? :devil:

Hahaha, even though I must concede that would be a lot of fun, I would never kill another PC unless forced to. Especially someone I get along with.

I think I have some material for a new daydream, though.

Play a Lawful Neutral Cleric of a Lawful Neutral God of Death, and treat undead as a fundamentally useful and harmless creature that's just used the wrong way. Argue with the Paladin that if he has a problem with it, that it's his, since his morality is not necessarily yours, and you're not hurting anyone.

Contract people so that once they die (of natural causes), you are entitled to their bodies (for necromantic purposes), and keep all your deals above board. Utilize skeletons as a type of factory labour.

I've thought about doing just that briefly, but he'd never let it happen. I'm sure he'd kill me on the spot, and my fellow party members have confirmed my suspicion.
kraegor
02-05-06, 10:30 PM As your DM if you can "buy" the half-fiend template.

Its +4 LA, so it would cost like 6,000xp to buy (going off memory)

You would start out as technically a 6th level character, so it means you have 15,000 experience.

15,000 - 6,000 = 9,000

9,000xp = 4th level.

That way you have paid your LA cost with the optional rules of buying a template, and are not too far behind the party.

Something to suggest to your DM... its called the "Ritual of Vitality" in the Savage Species, and I think Unearthed Arcana has an optional rule about it too.
bassist33333
02-05-06, 10:39 PM As your DM if you can "buy" the half-fiend template.

Its +4 LA, so it would cost like 6,000xp to buy (going off memory)

You would start out as technically a 6th level character, so it means you have 15,000 experience.

15,000 - 6,000 = 9,000

9,000xp = 4th level.

That way you have paid your LA cost with the optional rules of buying a template, and are not too far behind the party.

Something to suggest to your DM... its called the "Ritual of Vitality" in the Savage Species, and I think Unearthed Arcana has an optional rule about it too.

Wait...So then using that "buy" system, my ECL would remain 4 and stay the same as my CL, even though it's not really...? I don't get it. What would be the point of NOT using the buy system then?
Talen Lee
02-05-06, 10:52 PM Dude, do it. Let him kill you. Then your next character is a Lawful Neutral cleric who's out to bring his brother's fricking murderer, a paladin who has no class abilities now, to justice.

Seriously, put the wench in his place.
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-05-06, 11:13 PM Dude, do it. Let him kill you. Then your next character is a Lawful Neutral cleric who's out to bring his brother's fricking murderer, a paladin who has no class abilities now, to justice.

Seriously, put the wench in his place.
I was thinking that, but I thought it was just my CE-ness and unreasonable hatred of paladins flaring up, and decided not to comment beyond my initial joking post. Now that I see it's not just me, though, yeah, what TL said. Stuff that punk, if he'd kill you for using your class features he deserves to lose his own, along with his head. :fight!:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bassist33333 02-05-06, 05:20 PM	Well, here's the scoop. My current DM is in the need of a new character. The group is at level 6 or 7 right now and my character does not fit the campaign as well as planned. The character he needs is an evil necromancer, so I am going to take up a cleric character with the death and destruction domains. I will probably pick up the Blackguard class as well when I have enough levels to do so. The dillemma: My DM would prefer if my character were a half-fiend. Now, the level adjustment for half-fiend is +4. This campaign is only going until level 10, so I would only be able to get my character up to level 4 or 5 probably anyway, and I would start at level 2, which isn't that great, especially since evil clerics barely get any spells at low levels. However, I do really like the half-fiend's special abilities (such as flight and bite and claws, also resistance to poison). So my question is, would it be worth the level adjustment to become a half-fiend, or should I just be human? I was also thinking about suggesting the idea of a Tiefling (LA +1), but that barely gets any of the items that I like about the half-fiend. So...for anyone who's used a level adjusted template (since I've never been anything that needed that drastic of an LA), is it worth it? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks.
Surgo 02-05-06, 06:21 PM	Are you playing this character for your DM or you? A +4 LA would crush you. Even a +1 LA on a caster class like cleric sucks a lot more than it helps. I wouldn't do it.
bassist33333 02-05-06, 06:41 PM	Are you playing this character for your DM or you? A +4 LA would crush you. Even a +1 LA on a caster class like cleric sucks a lot more than it helps. I wouldn't do it. Well, yeah. It's just that I want to make a new character and my DM needs a new character for his campaign that he would otherwise introduce as an NPC. I'm thinking about striking a deal with him to get rid of some of the LA in exchange for some ability points, maybe.
CryoSilver 02-05-06, 06:47 PM	I suggest you ask him if you can play a tiefling instead, and just play up the supposed fiendish heritage. You'll take a hit to Charisma, which will affect your ability to rebuke some, but not to an unreasonable degree.
bassist33333 02-05-06, 07:11 PM	Well, I was planning on having him have pretty crappy Cha anyways, because his pasttimes include burning buildings, killing innocents, and biting peoples' faces off...but yeah. I'm going to miss the wings though. :(
RogerWilco 02-05-06, 07:16 PM	Isn't there some feat that can give you those in one of teh compete series, if you have demonic heritage? EDIT: found the feat: it's in Races of faerun: Ousider Wings: Prerequisites: Aasimar of Thiefling, base saves +2, Celestial bloodline ror Fiendish bloodline. Basically it allows you to fly at your land speed, average man. Fiendish bloodline requires Fey-ri, tanarukk or thiefling, all saves +1. You get protection from good 3/day and bane 1/day at CL=char level. So with 2 feats you can play a LA+1 and have some of the abilities you want too.
bassist33333 02-05-06, 08:35 PM	Isn't there some feat that can give you those in one of teh compete series, if you have demonic heritage? EDIT: found the feat: it's in Races of faerun: Ousider Wings: Prerequisites: Aasimar of Thiefling, base saves +2, Celestial bloodline ror Fiendish bloodline. Basically it allows you to fly at your land speed, average man. Fiendish bloodline requires Fey-ri, tanarukk or thiefling, all saves +1. You get protection from good 3/day and bane 1/day at CL=char level. So with 2 feats you can play a LA+1 and have some of the abilities you want too. Sweet! Thanks, man! That helps a lot. Does anyone know if Tieflings have fangs as well? I mean, I'm going to play out my Half-fiend bloodline, and from the Tiefling description it says: "[Some Tieflings] have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet." However, it doesn't say if any of these can be useful in anyway (like could it have the bite attack with pointed teeth?). Thanks for the help.
Rassul 02-05-06, 08:48 PM	For a caster, I say no. I started out with a half fiend cleric and the stat boosts and racial abilities aren't worth the level adjustment penalties. It is nice to take to the air and rain spells down on your foes, but it's better to stand there and blast them with spells twice as powerful. Also, if you're a necromancer charisma is going to be your key stat along with wisdom. The half fiend template would be awesome with a ranger or a fighter. It's just going to gimp a spellcaster. Also, I don't see why you're so set on scratching and biting. Both suck in comparison to an attack with a weapon. IMO, having a huge army of skeletons, wraiths, and vampires is much cooler than biting someone. And at least ten times as effective.
Talen Lee 02-05-06, 09:06 PM	Dear, dear, dear, dear god no. As a caster, it never is. (Exception being for the White Draconian from Dragonlance, which is, by a hairy eyeball, busted.)
bassist33333 02-05-06, 09:12 PM	For a caster, I say no. I started out with a half fiend cleric and the stat boosts and racial abilities aren't worth the level adjustment penalties. It is nice to take to the air and rain spells down on your foes, but it's better to stand there and blast them with spells twice as powerful. Also, if you're a necromancer charisma is going to be your key stat along with wisdom. The half fiend template would be awesome with a ranger or a fighter. It's just going to gimp a spellcaster. Also, I don't see why you're so set on scratching and biting. Both suck in comparison to an attack with a weapon. IMO, having a huge army of skeletons, wraiths, and vampires is much cooler than biting someone. And at least ten times as effective. Well, I just think that in more one-on-one close range combat, it'd be nice to have an unarmed strike (and bite would do 1d6+1 along with claws which are 1d4 I think). But I'm going to go with the Tiefling anyways. Also, the reason I really want wings is because I know that in this current campaign, with this DM, they could come in extremely handy. He likes putting us in situations where we have to swim, climb, run across ice, etc, and bypassing those would be pretty nice. :D
Rassul 02-05-06, 09:29 PM	Well, I just think that in more one-on-one close range combat, it'd be nice to have an unarmed strike (and bite would do 1d6+1 along with claws which are 1d4 I think). But I'm going to go with the Tiefling anyways. Also, the reason I really want wings is because I know that in this current campaign, with this DM, they could come in extremely handy. He likes putting us in situations where we have to swim, climb, run across ice, etc, and bypassing those would be pretty nice. :D I respect your opinion and by no means want to discourage you from playing the way you find most fun. That is, after all, the entire point of the game. I'd just like to say as having just played as a half fiend cleric the bite and scratch abilities will be completely useless to you. I never used them once, the only time I would is if I dropped my primary and secondary weapons. They just aren't as effective as an armed strike. Also, you can have the ability to fly without the level adjustment and the extra feat. Just have your party seek out and kill a winged creature, then have it serve you as a mount from beyond the grave. To me it would be a lot cooler flying around on a giant dragon or eagle than using your own wings. Also, it could carry your fellow party members. It doesn't do you much good to transverse a difficult obstacle if you just have to stand on the other side and wait for the rest of your party. It's even less fun when you get to the other side of the obstacle and are forced to fight the baddies alone. Just my two copper. And finally, I must say I envy you. I've been fascinated by necros since Diablo 2 but am unable to play one because our group includes a paladin.
Vanigo 02-05-06, 09:43 PM	As a caster, it never is. (Exception being for the White Draconian from Dragonlance, which is, by a hairy eyeball, busted.) Pixie can be made to work, too; the constant invisibility is a godsend and they've got great mental stats. It's suboptimal, but not unworkable.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-05-06, 10:01 PM	And finally, I must say I envy you. I've been fascinated by necros since Diablo 2 but am unable to play one because our group includes a paladin. Trick godboy into associating with evil you until he loses his class features, kill him while he's thus weakened, and make him your first undead servant? :devil:
Talen Lee 02-05-06, 10:17 PM	Play a Lawful Neutral Cleric of a Lawful Neutral God of Death, and treat undead as a fundamentally useful and harmless creature that's just used the wrong way. Argue with the Paladin that if he has a problem with it, that it's his, since his morality is not necessarily yours, and you're not hurting anyone. Contract people so that once they die (of natural causes), you are entitled to their bodies (for necromantic purposes), and keep all your deals above board. Utilize skeletons as a type of factory labour.
Rassul 02-05-06, 10:25 PM	Trick godboy into associating with evil you until he loses his class features, kill him while he's thus weakened, and make him your first undead servant? :devil: Hahaha, even though I must concede that would be a lot of fun, I would never kill another PC unless forced to. Especially someone I get along with. I think I have some material for a new daydream, though. Play a Lawful Neutral Cleric of a Lawful Neutral God of Death, and treat undead as a fundamentally useful and harmless creature that's just used the wrong way. Argue with the Paladin that if he has a problem with it, that it's his, since his morality is not necessarily yours, and you're not hurting anyone. Contract people so that once they die (of natural causes), you are entitled to their bodies (for necromantic purposes), and keep all your deals above board. Utilize skeletons as a type of factory labour. I've thought about doing just that briefly, but he'd never let it happen. I'm sure he'd kill me on the spot, and my fellow party members have confirmed my suspicion.
kraegor 02-05-06, 10:30 PM	As your DM if you can "buy" the half-fiend template. Its +4 LA, so it would cost like 6,000xp to buy (going off memory) You would start out as technically a 6th level character, so it means you have 15,000 experience. 15,000 - 6,000 = 9,000 9,000xp = 4th level. That way you have paid your LA cost with the optional rules of buying a template, and are not too far behind the party. Something to suggest to your DM... its called the "Ritual of Vitality" in the Savage Species, and I think Unearthed Arcana has an optional rule about it too.
bassist33333 02-05-06, 10:39 PM	As your DM if you can "buy" the half-fiend template. Its +4 LA, so it would cost like 6,000xp to buy (going off memory) You would start out as technically a 6th level character, so it means you have 15,000 experience. 15,000 - 6,000 = 9,000 9,000xp = 4th level. That way you have paid your LA cost with the optional rules of buying a template, and are not too far behind the party. Something to suggest to your DM... its called the "Ritual of Vitality" in the Savage Species, and I think Unearthed Arcana has an optional rule about it too. Wait...So then using that "buy" system, my ECL would remain 4 and stay the same as my CL, even though it's not really...? I don't get it. What would be the point of NOT using the buy system then?
Talen Lee 02-05-06, 10:52 PM	Dude, do it. Let him kill you. Then your next character is a Lawful Neutral cleric who's out to bring his brother's fricking murderer, a paladin who has no class abilities now, to justice. Seriously, put the wench in his place.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-05-06, 11:13 PM	Dude, do it. Let him kill you. Then your next character is a Lawful Neutral cleric who's out to bring his brother's fricking murderer, a paladin who has no class abilities now, to justice. Seriously, put the wench in his place. I was thinking that, but I thought it was just my CE-ness and unreasonable hatred of paladins flaring up, and decided not to comment beyond my initial joking post. Now that I see it's not just me, though, yeah, what TL said. Stuff that punk, if he'd kill you for using your class features he deserves to lose his own, along with his head. :fight!: