Is losing a level worth this? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is losing a level worth this? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
11-30-07, 02:16 AM As un-fluffy as it is for a Catfolk to be a Knight, I think Catfolk have the potentialto become great Knights. Bonuses to both key abilities (dex and cha) definitely helps. Cha for Knight's Challenge, and Dex for Combat Reflexes. The faster land speed and extra armor doesn't hurt either.

Still, are all those worth a level loss?
12Shark
11-30-07, 02:28 AM Un-Fluffy?

Un-Fluffy my foot. Knights can be anyone and (almost) anything. Figure out why your catfolk would be a knight, and what makes him/her/it unique, and screw the lost levels. A couple of levels lost from Knight, of all things, isn't so bad that you should abandon the idea.

On a less serious note:

For laughs, make the catfolk wield a can opener, and a practitioner of a style of fighting with its roots in opening tin cans.
FrostHammer
11-30-07, 02:36 AM Can you help me make a good Knight build that doesn't use too much multiclassing? My DM will probably enforce multiclass exp penalties.
Cifer
11-30-07, 07:45 AM Can you help me make a good Knight build that doesn't use too much multiclassing? My DM will probably enforce multiclass exp penalties.
Important side note: Taking levels in Prestige Classes never gives an XP penalty!
Salla
11-30-07, 12:59 PM Catfolk is one of the few races where that +1 LA is actually worth it, especially since you're not playing a spellcaster. I never really thought of DEX as a knight's key ability (heavy armor proficiency=dex dump to me), but Combat Reflexes does change that equation. :)

You might see if your DM is using the LA buyoff from the SRD/Unearthed Arcana.

Side note part 2: The Crusader from Tome of Battle can do a lot of what the knight does, and arguably does it better; instead of the Knight's Challenge to make people attack you, he simply makes it so he's the best person to attack. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare (-4 penalty if you attack my ally and not me), for example.
danielinthewolvesden
11-30-07, 09:44 PM Side note part 2: The Crusader from Tome of Battle can do a lot of what the knight does, and arguably does it better; instead of the Knight's Challenge to make people attack you, he simply makes it so he's the best person to attack. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare (-4 penalty if you attack my ally and not me), for example.

I agree, BUT, the Crusader is also likely the most complex class to play.

Hmm,what other races are worth a LA+1 for a warrior type?
runestar
11-30-07, 10:16 PM Goliath comes to mind, powerful build and good physical stat mods make them excellent barbs and fighters.
FrostHammer
12-01-07, 12:33 AM Don't have access to that race. And yes, dex is important (I'll go for at least a 16 after race bonus) because I'll be a tripper for sure and especially after getting Armor Mastery.

We may be using my variant Knight class presented here:

HD: d12

Table 1-1: The Knight
Fort Ref Will
Level BAB Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Fighting challenge +1, knight’s challenge, knight’s code
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Bonus Feat, Shield block +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Bulwark of Defense
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Armor mastery (medium), test of mettle
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Bonus feat, vigilant defender
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Shield ally, Shield Specialization
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Fighting challenge +2, Force of Will
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Call to battle
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Armor mastery (heavy)
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, Bond of Loyalty
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Shield block +2, Shield Ward
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Daunting challenge
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Fighting challenge +3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Improved shield ally
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Bonus feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Shield block +3
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Impetuous Endurance
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Fighting challenge +4
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Loyal beyond death, shield block +4

Class Skills:
The Knight's class skills are as follows: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Swim.

Skill points at 1st level: (4+int modifier) x4
Skill points at each additional level: 4+int modifier

Class Features:
All class features are identical to the ones in the Players' Handbook 2 except as noted in this section.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
The Knight is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and armor (light, medium and heavy) and shields (including tower shields).

Knight levels count as Fighter levels with regards to qualifying for feats, entries into prestige classes, etc.

Test of Mettle (Ex): This ability may affect a foe more than once per battle instead of just once per day.

Bond of Loyalty (Ex): This ability has been moved up so the Knight receives it at 10th level. Everything else remains the same.

The Knight’s Code: Everything remains the same, except that one part of the code is removed. The Knight may gain flanking bonuses as normal without violating the code of honor.

Shield Block (Ex): Shield block now gives extra shield AC against ALL foes instead of one designated foe. The bonus is +1 at level 2. It increases to +2 at 11th level, +3 at 16th level, and +4 at 20th level.

Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the Knight ignores the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor. The maximum dex bonus for any medium or light armor the Knight wears increases by 2. Starting 9th level, those benefits extend to Heavy armor as well. The Knight may choose to forego one or both of these abilities in return for one or two bonus feats chosen from the Fighter bonus feats. A Knight must give up Armor Mastery (Medium) if she wishes to give up Armor Mastery (Heavy).

Bonus feats: The Knight does not gain Mounted Combat at level 2. Instead, the Knight gains a bonus feat just as he does at levels 5, 10, and 15. In addition, the Knight also gets an additional Bonus feat at level 18 as well. The feats may be chosen from one of the following: Any Fighter bonus feat, Iron Will, Force of Personality, Great Fortitude, Endurance, Diehard. The Knight must still meet all prerequisites for the feat.

Vigilante Defender (Ex): In addition to the normal benefits mentioned, the Knight also gains this benefit: If the Knight and an ally is flanking an enemy, and that enemy makes an attack on anyone but the Knight, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the Knight.

Shield Specialization: At 6th level, a Knight gains Shield Specialization as a bonus feat, except that the Knight may also choose Tower Shield as one of the choices.

Force of Will: At 7th level, a Knight add her Charisma bonus (if any) to any damage rolls she makes. She may also choose to use her Charisma modifier in place of her Strength modifier on attack rolls.

Shield Ward: At 11th level, a Knights gains Shield Ward as a bonus feat.
Sakaki22
12-01-07, 12:44 AM Important side note: Taking levels in Prestige Classes never gives an XP penalty!

Sorry to temporarily thread hijack, but can anyone cite this ruling? I've been hearing it for years, and have never found it mentioned in any of the core books. Thanks.
Salla
12-01-07, 01:16 AM Sorry to temporarily thread hijack, but can anyone cite this ruling? I've been hearing it for years, and have never found it mentioned in any of the core books. Thanks.

It was accidentally left out of the 3.5 DMG. It's in the FAQ and/or the errata.
Sakaki22
12-01-07, 02:10 AM Thank you, Salla. You're a life (well, XP) saver.
kuonji
12-01-07, 02:47 AM You might ask your DM about using the Reducing Level Adjustment rules in the SRD to "buy off" the level adjustment later.
FrostHammer
12-01-07, 02:07 PM I can buy it offwhen the charater hits level 3 yes, if buy offs ar eallowed. the question now is whether to go straight Knight or not. Many Knight abilities are tied to Knight levels, and I don't know of any Knight prestige classes thta advance the Knight's Challenge.
Kobold_Avenger
12-01-07, 02:34 PM As un-fluffy as it is for a Catfolk to be a Knight, I think Catfolk have the potentialto become great Knights.
Never be slave to fluff!!! Fluff exist to give you a something to start off of, thats all.
Necroramo
12-02-07, 08:13 PM Yes. I think that being a catfolk is a very good idea.
Salla
12-02-07, 11:53 PM Never be slave to fluff!!! Fluff exist to give you a something to start off of, thats all.

Besides, catfolk are very fluffy.

'Cause, you know, they're cats.

And cats are fluffy.

I'll be in my room.
Mock26
12-02-07, 11:55 PM Yes.
Cifer
12-03-07, 07:03 AM the question now is whether to go straight Knight or not. Many Knight abilities are tied to Knight levels, and I don't know of any Knight prestige classes thta advance the Knight's Challenge.
You might look up the MIC - there's a new item set there that improves the knight's abilities.
Cartigan
12-03-07, 10:02 AM Side note part 2: The Crusader from Tome of Battle can do a lot of what the knight does, and arguably does it better; instead of the Knight's Challenge to make people attack you, he simply makes it so he's the best person to attack. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare (-4 penalty if you attack my ally and not me), for example.
Post number 4, you guys are slipping.

And Knight really doesn't prestige too well. I'm terrible at picking classes that can prestige well, so I picked a Knight to play.

And the only good part of the set in the MiC is the armband.
Sinfire Titan
12-30-07, 11:39 PM Cavalier, Purple Dragon Knight, Kensai, Pious Templar, Ur-Preist (if LE), Divine Crusader, Consecrated Harrier, Incarnum Blade, Incandescent Champion, Witchborn Binder, Dragon Devotee (Followed up with Dragon Disciple), Ordained Champion, Sanctified One, Death's Chosen, Battle Trickster, Uncanny Trickster, Green Star Adept, Suel Arcanamach, Animal Lord, Beastmaster, Bloodhound, Tempest, Vigilante, Wild Plains Outrider (after taking the Wild Cohort feat from the main site), Jaunter, Hellreaver, Dragon Lord, Witch Slayer, Shadowsmith, Acolyte of the Ego (if you can work the Prereqs and don't mind Truenaming), Dragonkith, Dragon Rider, Dragonslayer, Platinum Knight, Talon of Tiamat, Beastheart Adept, Disciple of Asmodeus, Disciple of Dispater, Disciple of Mepistopheles, Warrior of Darkness, Ashworm Dragoon, Scion of Ten-Et-Nu, Slayer, War Mind, Legacy Champion, Topaz Guardian. Just to name a few common ones.

Books (In order mentioned): Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Magic of Incarnum, Races of the Dragon, Complete Champion, Libris Mortis, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, Dragon Magic, Tome of Magic, Draconomicon, Dungeonscape, Book of Vile Darkness, Sandstorm, Lords of Madness, Weapons of Legacy, Expanded Psionics Handbook/SRD. I'm missing my Book of Exaulted Deeds at the moment, so I didn't mention any from it. But there are several in it that you may find helpful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 11-30-07, 02:16 AM	As un-fluffy as it is for a Catfolk to be a Knight, I think Catfolk have the potentialto become great Knights. Bonuses to both key abilities (dex and cha) definitely helps. Cha for Knight's Challenge, and Dex for Combat Reflexes. The faster land speed and extra armor doesn't hurt either. Still, are all those worth a level loss?
12Shark 11-30-07, 02:28 AM	Un-Fluffy? Un-Fluffy my foot. Knights can be anyone and (almost) anything. Figure out why your catfolk would be a knight, and what makes him/her/it unique, and screw the lost levels. A couple of levels lost from Knight, of all things, isn't so bad that you should abandon the idea. On a less serious note: For laughs, make the catfolk wield a can opener, and a practitioner of a style of fighting with its roots in opening tin cans.
FrostHammer 11-30-07, 02:36 AM	Can you help me make a good Knight build that doesn't use too much multiclassing? My DM will probably enforce multiclass exp penalties.
Cifer 11-30-07, 07:45 AM	Can you help me make a good Knight build that doesn't use too much multiclassing? My DM will probably enforce multiclass exp penalties. Important side note: Taking levels in Prestige Classes never gives an XP penalty!
Salla 11-30-07, 12:59 PM	Catfolk is one of the few races where that +1 LA is actually worth it, especially since you're not playing a spellcaster. I never really thought of DEX as a knight's key ability (heavy armor proficiency=dex dump to me), but Combat Reflexes does change that equation. :) You might see if your DM is using the LA buyoff from the SRD/Unearthed Arcana. Side note part 2: The Crusader from Tome of Battle can do a lot of what the knight does, and arguably does it better; instead of the Knight's Challenge to make people attack you, he simply makes it so he's the best person to attack. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare (-4 penalty if you attack my ally and not me), for example.
danielinthewolvesden 11-30-07, 09:44 PM	Side note part 2: The Crusader from Tome of Battle can do a lot of what the knight does, and arguably does it better; instead of the Knight's Challenge to make people attack you, he simply makes it so he's the best person to attack. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare (-4 penalty if you attack my ally and not me), for example. I agree, BUT, the Crusader is also likely the most complex class to play. Hmm,what other races are worth a LA+1 for a warrior type?
runestar 11-30-07, 10:16 PM	Goliath comes to mind, powerful build and good physical stat mods make them excellent barbs and fighters.
FrostHammer 12-01-07, 12:33 AM	Don't have access to that race. And yes, dex is important (I'll go for at least a 16 after race bonus) because I'll be a tripper for sure and especially after getting Armor Mastery. We may be using my variant Knight class presented here: HD: d12 Table 1-1: The Knight Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Fighting challenge +1, knight’s challenge, knight’s code 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Bonus Feat, Shield block +1 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Bulwark of Defense 4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Armor mastery (medium), test of mettle 5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Bonus feat, vigilant defender 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Shield ally, Shield Specialization 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Fighting challenge +2, Force of Will 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Call to battle 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Armor mastery (heavy) 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, Bond of Loyalty 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Shield block +2, Shield Ward 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Daunting challenge 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Fighting challenge +3 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Improved shield ally 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Bonus feat 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Shield block +3 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Impetuous Endurance 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Fighting challenge +4 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Loyal beyond death, shield block +4 Class Skills: The Knight's class skills are as follows: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Swim. Skill points at 1st level: (4+int modifier) x4 Skill points at each additional level: 4+int modifier Class Features: All class features are identical to the ones in the Players' Handbook 2 except as noted in this section. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Knight is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and armor (light, medium and heavy) and shields (including tower shields). Knight levels count as Fighter levels with regards to qualifying for feats, entries into prestige classes, etc. Test of Mettle (Ex): This ability may affect a foe more than once per battle instead of just once per day. Bond of Loyalty (Ex): This ability has been moved up so the Knight receives it at 10th level. Everything else remains the same. The Knight’s Code: Everything remains the same, except that one part of the code is removed. The Knight may gain flanking bonuses as normal without violating the code of honor. Shield Block (Ex): Shield block now gives extra shield AC against ALL foes instead of one designated foe. The bonus is +1 at level 2. It increases to +2 at 11th level, +3 at 16th level, and +4 at 20th level. Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the Knight ignores the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor. The maximum dex bonus for any medium or light armor the Knight wears increases by 2. Starting 9th level, those benefits extend to Heavy armor as well. The Knight may choose to forego one or both of these abilities in return for one or two bonus feats chosen from the Fighter bonus feats. A Knight must give up Armor Mastery (Medium) if she wishes to give up Armor Mastery (Heavy). Bonus feats: The Knight does not gain Mounted Combat at level 2. Instead, the Knight gains a bonus feat just as he does at levels 5, 10, and 15. In addition, the Knight also gets an additional Bonus feat at level 18 as well. The feats may be chosen from one of the following: Any Fighter bonus feat, Iron Will, Force of Personality, Great Fortitude, Endurance, Diehard. The Knight must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. Vigilante Defender (Ex): In addition to the normal benefits mentioned, the Knight also gains this benefit: If the Knight and an ally is flanking an enemy, and that enemy makes an attack on anyone but the Knight, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the Knight. Shield Specialization: At 6th level, a Knight gains Shield Specialization as a bonus feat, except that the Knight may also choose Tower Shield as one of the choices. Force of Will: At 7th level, a Knight add her Charisma bonus (if any) to any damage rolls she makes. She may also choose to use her Charisma modifier in place of her Strength modifier on attack rolls. Shield Ward: At 11th level, a Knights gains Shield Ward as a bonus feat.
Sakaki22 12-01-07, 12:44 AM	Important side note: Taking levels in Prestige Classes never gives an XP penalty! Sorry to temporarily thread hijack, but can anyone cite this ruling? I've been hearing it for years, and have never found it mentioned in any of the core books. Thanks.
Salla 12-01-07, 01:16 AM	Sorry to temporarily thread hijack, but can anyone cite this ruling? I've been hearing it for years, and have never found it mentioned in any of the core books. Thanks. It was accidentally left out of the 3.5 DMG. It's in the FAQ and/or the errata.
Sakaki22 12-01-07, 02:10 AM	Thank you, Salla. You're a life (well, XP) saver.
kuonji 12-01-07, 02:47 AM	You might ask your DM about using the Reducing Level Adjustment rules in the SRD to "buy off" the level adjustment later.
FrostHammer 12-01-07, 02:07 PM	I can buy it offwhen the charater hits level 3 yes, if buy offs ar eallowed. the question now is whether to go straight Knight or not. Many Knight abilities are tied to Knight levels, and I don't know of any Knight prestige classes thta advance the Knight's Challenge.
Kobold_Avenger 12-01-07, 02:34 PM	As un-fluffy as it is for a Catfolk to be a Knight, I think Catfolk have the potentialto become great Knights. Never be slave to fluff!!! Fluff exist to give you a something to start off of, thats all.
Necroramo 12-02-07, 08:13 PM	Yes. I think that being a catfolk is a very good idea.
Salla 12-02-07, 11:53 PM	Never be slave to fluff!!! Fluff exist to give you a something to start off of, thats all. Besides, catfolk are very fluffy. 'Cause, you know, they're cats. And cats are fluffy. I'll be in my room.
Mock26 12-02-07, 11:55 PM	Yes.
Cifer 12-03-07, 07:03 AM	the question now is whether to go straight Knight or not. Many Knight abilities are tied to Knight levels, and I don't know of any Knight prestige classes thta advance the Knight's Challenge. You might look up the MIC - there's a new item set there that improves the knight's abilities.
Cartigan 12-03-07, 10:02 AM	Side note part 2: The Crusader from Tome of Battle can do a lot of what the knight does, and arguably does it better; instead of the Knight's Challenge to make people attack you, he simply makes it so he's the best person to attack. Stances like Iron Guard's Glare (-4 penalty if you attack my ally and not me), for example. Post number 4, you guys are slipping. And Knight really doesn't prestige too well. I'm terrible at picking classes that can prestige well, so I picked a Knight to play. And the only good part of the set in the MiC is the armband.
Sinfire Titan 12-30-07, 11:39 PM	Cavalier, Purple Dragon Knight, Kensai, Pious Templar, Ur-Preist (if LE), Divine Crusader, Consecrated Harrier, Incarnum Blade, Incandescent Champion, Witchborn Binder, Dragon Devotee (Followed up with Dragon Disciple), Ordained Champion, Sanctified One, Death's Chosen, Battle Trickster, Uncanny Trickster, Green Star Adept, Suel Arcanamach, Animal Lord, Beastmaster, Bloodhound, Tempest, Vigilante, Wild Plains Outrider (after taking the Wild Cohort feat from the main site), Jaunter, Hellreaver, Dragon Lord, Witch Slayer, Shadowsmith, Acolyte of the Ego (if you can work the Prereqs and don't mind Truenaming), Dragonkith, Dragon Rider, Dragonslayer, Platinum Knight, Talon of Tiamat, Beastheart Adept, Disciple of Asmodeus, Disciple of Dispater, Disciple of Mepistopheles, Warrior of Darkness, Ashworm Dragoon, Scion of Ten-Et-Nu, Slayer, War Mind, Legacy Champion, Topaz Guardian. Just to name a few common ones. Books (In order mentioned): Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Magic of Incarnum, Races of the Dragon, Complete Champion, Libris Mortis, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, Dragon Magic, Tome of Magic, Draconomicon, Dungeonscape, Book of Vile Darkness, Sandstorm, Lords of Madness, Weapons of Legacy, Expanded Psionics Handbook/SRD. I'm missing my Book of Exaulted Deeds at the moment, so I didn't mention any from it. But there are several in it that you may find helpful.