Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codexia 07-24-05, 03:38 PM	I'm playing a Chaotic Good warlock...which apparently, destroys my ability to use Baleful Utterance -_-; He said any player, no matter what, using Dark Speech for anything is going to alignment drift towards evil. So basicly, I use my power a few times...i'm evil. :/ Is that really fair? He's never heard of using evil's power against itself? I just don't think that my alignment, a legal alignment in the CA for Warlock, should mean I don't get to use some of my powers, since he's already said this is a good campaign, and any evil character becomes an NPC automaticaly -_-;;; I want my shatter at will T_T
OracleYori 07-24-05, 03:41 PM	Using the Baleful utterance isnt really using Dark Speech- its a nice flavor of the power- but your DM should know that- Mechanically, it has nothing to do with Dark Speech- If anything else, ask that you be able to switch it out for free.
codexia 07-24-05, 03:48 PM	I tried to tell him it was flavor text :/ but he said if WoTC didn't want it to be considered Dark Speech, they shouldn't have included the word's Dark Speech in the description...
celtredleg 07-24-05, 04:34 PM	So ask him why he let you play a warlock knowing he was going to shaft you later??? Sounds more like he has decided that he doesnt like the warlock and wants rid of you. Just ask him why he wants you to lose your charecter. Better now than later when you have more invested in it. I think warlock just seems like it shoul be evil. Even though CG fits the rules, they just have an evil feel to them. Its crappy DMing to let somebody have something, only to start stripping it of its usefulness after play starts. He should at least be honest and say no from the start.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-24-05, 05:26 PM	Since the warlock's powers come from its demonic heritage, your DM's argument about a power being inherently evil could apply to any and all of its abilities. It does not sound like your DM is going to back down on this one. And it honestly looks like you're going to get the shaft any way you go here. My advice to you: decide if you enjoy the campaign enough to make a new character and play that. If you do see option B. If you do not see option A. A) What has transpired here appears to be bad DMing or new DMing. Either your DM was not thinking when s/he allowed the warlock or has just now seen something in it that scares him/her, and as a result has decided to practically ban it. You don't have to take that. Simply pack your things up and leave. Go find another DM that will allow you to play your warlock and game with that group. B) Either your DM was not thinking when s/he allowed the warlock or has just now seen something in it that scares him/her, and as a result has decided to practically ban it. In any event it probably is not worth fighting over. Simply make a new character and move on. Have your warlock go burn down a church or something, might as well go out with a bang and give the DM an NPC to work with, and then roll up a new concept that will work better with DMs campaign. Since s/he seems to want good characters I recommend a paladin or cleric to a good deity.
VirgilCaine 07-24-05, 05:28 PM	I think warlock just seems like it shoul be evil. Even though CG fits the rules, they just have an evil feel to them. It's so people can do the whole "unwanted power" thing for angsty RP XP. IMO Warlock should have been flavored MUCH more generically--celestials, genies, demons/devils, elementals, fey, slaadi, or formians could be the result of the Warlocks powers and several options could have been presented for flavoring the class for the specific source he has.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 07-24-05, 05:43 PM	So ask him why he let you play a warlock knowing he was going to shaft you later??? Sounds more like he has decided that he doesnt like the warlock and wants rid of you. Just ask him why he wants you to lose your charecter. Better now than later when you have more invested in it. Why is it that when a DM put a limit on an ability, it's AUTOMATICALY because he hates the player? 2 things to remember: 1): Maybe in your DM's world, baleful utturance IS akin to using dark speech. That's how it works for him, so in this game, that's how it works. Maybe there's a hidden stroy reason. I once did a game where detect thought (and all other telepathy) didn't exist. It was impossible to do. Period. Instead of doing the smart thing (searching WHY in-game), a player threw a tantrum during character creation, yelling about how I was trying to restrain his creativity and all. I warned him that there was a story reason, but it didn't calm him. I booted the immature twerp. 2): Maybe he think it's overpowered and don't want to deal with the hassle of out-of-control shatter. Let's face it, it is a pretty good ability, one that can easily be abused and become overpowered. That said, if you want to convince your DM, tell him you're the descendant of a gremlin and you are using Mischevious Speach to convince the spirit of the object to loose coherence and shatter. New name, new language, same mechanic.
celtredleg 07-24-05, 06:21 PM	Not hates the player, just likes to control them. I do have a real problem with giving things and then takeing them away. I get the part about uncontroled shatter, and am not sure I like the warlock because of the invocation at will. But, giveing somebody something, and then when they become effective with it, taking it away just sucks. If the DM had offered to change out the power, that would be different. But he didnt, he just says you will become evil in a good only campaign and lose your charecter. Thats the part I disagree with. Thats why the OP needs to get a new charecter. Many things dont fit in a given champaign. Thats why you dont let them in. Or the DM thinks they are overpowered. I dont have a problem with that. Its the now you have it, now you dont.
OracleYori 07-24-05, 06:28 PM	Ze Vegetable- You are right that taking away something during/before character creation is ok- it seems to me that this happened after the character was made...
Arkidisey 07-24-05, 06:36 PM	Now the thing with Dark Speech is that its totally EVIL, therefore no good can come of its words, there is no word for sorry or anything of the like. BUT! it doesn't mean you can't use it without being evil, it just means you cant use it for GOOD perposes, it says it in the Dark Speech entry in TBoVD, so don't let him BS you when he says only evil ppl can use it.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 07-24-05, 07:05 PM	Ze Vegetable- You are right that taking away something during/before character creation is ok- it seems to me that this happened after the character was made... From what I read, I thought it was at character generation. nowhere did he say it happened after a few levels. But I agree, it makes all the difference in the world. Care to shed light on this, Codexia? When did you become aware it would make you evil? If you had already used balefull utturance before without repercussions, (provided, of course, you didn't abuse it) you are being treated unfairly. If it was the first time you use it, your DM probably overlooked it (yes, it's a sad fact that DMs are only human and prone to commit mistakes) during creation (IF you told him you took it) and will probably let you take another power on the spot. That's not too bad. That said, if a player abuse an ability to the point where it imbalance the game, I think a DM's well within his rights to nerf the guy mercilessly. After all, he broke the gmae's balance willingly for the sake of his PC being powerfull. That is, in my games, ground for serious punishment.
Salla 07-24-05, 09:18 PM	Well, here's the thing. Technically, it is your DM's game, and what he says goes. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes not. The description of Baleful Utterance references something in the BoVD (which I don't have), and the Shatter spell. For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that Dark Speech is some wicked-evil-nasty thing (since it's in the BoVD). So, if the DM does rule that Baleful Utterance gains the Evil descriptor, then yes, repeated use WITHOUT ALSO PERFORMING GOOD ACTS will create an alignment shift. However, the character's overall actions should be considered; at the very worst, you should become Chaotic Neutral if you use [Evil] effects to good ends. It sounds more like your DM doesn't understand alignments than he hates you. But if you can't reach a compromise on this, I would recommend that you ask him if you can change the selection of incantation, and ask him which other incantations he's going to apply the [Evil] Descriptor to before you gain any more invocations.
codexia 07-24-05, 09:52 PM	Sorry for the no-show, been tryin to keep my mother in bed, she's sorta sick. As for what i've read so far, i'll see if I can respond without missing anything o.o;; It wasn't until my character hit 4th level that he decided to get rid of Baleful Utterance. He apparently didn't realize what Dark Speech was. Of course, he says there is NO penalty at all for using spells with the [good] or [evil] descriptors :/ As for abusing it...I tend to save shatter for when I have somebody charging down my Warlock and want to make sure I don't get cut to shreds (if I don't have a wall to Spider Climb up anyway). Shatter is generally my last resort, or my mage screwer, since I love to shatter holy symbols, spell books, and spell component pouches (assuming they are non-magical ones). It's called playing smart, lol. Take away a mages source of power...no more mage. At least, nowhere near as strong mage ^_^ I tried to explain my whole theory on it...if the class was allowed to be CG by the rules of the book, they wouldn't toss in a power that would force the character to become evil o.O that would just be pointless. That, and just speaking a language, even if it IS pure evil, won't make me evil. Now, if I took the Dark Speech feat so I could really start to use it...THEN I would have to say i'm going evil fast :/
Salla 07-24-05, 10:24 PM	It wasn't until my character hit 4th level that he decided to get rid of Baleful Utterance. He apparently didn't realize what Dark Speech was. Of course, he says there is NO penalty at all for using spells with the [good] or [evil] descriptors :/ Well, now he's just being inconsistent.
celtredleg 07-24-05, 10:44 PM	Yep, he is out to hose you. Should have caught that a long time ago. Ze vegie, yes I completely agree that the DM could have nerfed that ability in creation. And, if he sees it as unbalancing later, he can do something to it. But he should compensate the player for stripping the power, not threaten to make him an NPC if he uses one of his favorite powers. It would be like telling the fighters that bladed weapons cause to much pain and suffering so they must use pillows or they will turn evil.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 07-24-05, 10:52 PM	It wasn't until my character hit 4th level that he decided to get rid of Baleful Utterance. He apparently didn't realize what Dark Speech was. Of course, he says there is NO penalty at all for using spells with the [good] or [evil] descriptors :/ Bad DM call. He new you had it, you used it already and now he want it gone. Unless you're unbalancing the group with it, your DM's wrong. As for abusing it...I tend to save shatter for when I have somebody charging down my Warlock and want to make sure I don't get cut to shreds (if I don't have a wall to Spider Climb up anyway). Shatter is generally my last resort, or my mage screwer, since I love to shatter holy symbols, spell books, and spell component pouches (assuming they are non-magical ones). It's called playing smart, lol. Take away a mages source of power...no more mage. At least, nowhere near as strong mage ^_^ emphasis mine. I'm playing devil's advocate, here. If you continually use the same tactic because it's undefeatable, it's not playing smart, it's exploiting a loophole. In 2nd edition, you could use the spell create water to make people's head explode. Continualy using it that way was not smart, it was boring for the DM. If that is the case here, your DM is right to remove it. As I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here. Only you can say if you abused it. Try to place yourself in your DM's shoes. If you exchanged roles, would you like having to deal with your PC's shatters? Ze vegie, yes I completely agree that the DM could have nerfed that ability in creation. And, if he sees it as unbalancing later, he can do something to it. But he should compensate the player for stripping the power, not threaten to make him an NPC if he uses one of his favorite powers. It would be like telling the fighters that bladed weapons cause to much pain and suffering so they must use pillows or they will turn evil. You are right. I had totaly missed the turning into an NPC part when I first read his post. Üüps. On a totaly unrelated matter, I accept the validity of your pillow argument. No fighter in my game will have the right to use blades unless they are evil.
codexia 07-24-05, 10:54 PM	Bleh, I knew I forgot something. He DID let me take a new power ^^; So i'm not complaining about getting totally screwed. I'm just complaining that I think he's being a tad **** about the whole dark speech thing...considering using good and evil spells doesnt alter the character at all, but speaking an evil language does. I speek Abyssal and Celestial also, but those dont affect me >_< Which considering he said the only reason it hurts me is that its a language of evil...
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 07-24-05, 10:59 PM	I speek Abyssal and Celestial also, but those dont affect me >_< Which considering he said the only reason it hurts me is that its a language of evil... Wathever you do, DON'T point this out to your DM. He's bound to make you an half-mad schizophrenic for speaking both the language of Utter Purity and of Irremedial evil.
Salla 07-24-05, 10:59 PM	Bleh, I knew I forgot something. He DID let me take a new power ^^; So i'm not complaining about getting totally screwed. I'm just complaining that I think he's being a tad **** about the whole dark speech thing...considering using good and evil spells doesnt alter the character at all, but speaking an evil language does. I speek Abyssal and Celestial also, but those dont affect me >_< Which considering he said the only reason it hurts me is that its a language of evil... Well, Dark Speech is 'beyond' evil, apprently (I have the BoED, and I'm guessing it's the direct counterpart to the Words of Creation), but if he doesn't alignment ding people on using spells with alignment descriptors while doing the same to you, he's simply being unfair.
codexia 07-24-05, 11:10 PM	Lol, the reason my character speaks celestial and abyssal is because of his history. His heritage is demonic, he's trying to spite it by being as holy as possable (he even has the VOP, which is working surpisingly well with my Warlock). The character itself would have nothing against using Dark Speach though to screw over an evil cleric...heck, destroying an evil holy symbol would be music to his ears. The thing that gets me though is, other then the no penalties for any other good/evil spell, and no other good/evil languages causing problems...is that the warlock spell doesnt actually involve the feat for Dark Speach...so why exactly is it really doing anything to harm my character or his soul :/ The feat lets you have a lot more versatility with it (as well as causing yourself quite a bit of harm apparently if ya do it wrong) but the spell for the warlock doesnt seem to involve it at all, other then referencing it...
jukar 07-24-05, 11:30 PM	It's so people can do the whole "unwanted power" thing for angsty RP XP. IMO Warlock should have been flavored MUCH more generically--celestials, genies, demons/devils, elementals, fey, slaadi, or formians could be the result of the Warlocks powers and several options could have been presented for flavoring the class for the specific source he has. It's funny that people never seem to want their dark powers... I'd like to see someone who has a totally benevolent, completely useful power of a good origin who angsts because he doesn't want it. Now that would be a fun twist on a tired, near dead cliche. I agree with you, I think the warlock ability should definitely be more generic... although I think the CA mentions something about fey blood being a possible source?
weasel fierce 07-25-05, 01:03 AM	Is Balefull Utterance a requirement to play a warlock ?
celtredleg 07-25-05, 01:13 AM	Is Balefull Utterance a requirement to play a warlock ? As I recall, you dont play 3.5 at all right?? So, no its not a requirement. Warlocks get very few invocations, but can use them at will. So its like a super socerer, even more restricted, but even more powerful in its range. I believe that a 4th level only gets 2 invocations, or maybe 3. Baleful utterance is a good one for a low level PC to have. Sort of like sleep for a wiz. The thing is, by RAW, the Warlock can be CG, and nowhere in the discription does it say that useing any of the powers would change your alignment. Its like saying that rageing slowly turns a barb evil. I havent had anybody play one yet, so I dont know if it is really a problem, or just a DM that doesnt want to deal with it.
weasel fierce 07-25-05, 01:23 AM	Thanks a lot :)
codexia 07-25-05, 01:42 AM	Here's the thing...I can see why he thinks Dark Speech would start turning a character evil. But Baleful Utterance doesn't make any use of the actual power or feat of Dark Speech, so none of the power boosts or personal harm or anything occur when you use the Baleful Utterance spell... If I took the feat, I would say yea, i'm gonna be evil pretty fast. But...:/ meh...dunno what to do with him.
MSW 07-28-05, 06:40 PM	I tried to tell him it was flavor text :/ but he said if WoTC didn't want it to be considered Dark Speech, they shouldn't have included the word's Dark Speech in the description... Counter by saying if WoTC thought Baleful Utterance would violate the warlock's alighnment, they wouldn't have put it on the warlock's spell list. Magic Missile can violate your alignment if you decide to toast some todlers with it just for target practice. So there is an argument to be made for how the spells are used. Using evil against evil... yes, Protection from Evil is great for that. The BBEG doesn't change to Lawful Good if he casts that spell to keep a demon from eating him...
solbergb 07-28-05, 07:03 PM	It's funny that people never seem to want their dark powers... I'd like to see someone who has a totally benevolent, completely useful power of a good origin who angsts because he doesn't want it. Now that would be a fun twist on a tired, near dead cliche. I've got a favored soul that had to give up his career as a non-magical healer because the moment the deity noticed him, crazy stuff started happening around him (you know..adventurer stuff). The fact that he is magically a much better healer than he ever was has not reconciled him (yet) to the fact that his life was ruined. He's kind of a grumpy character. People can be mad at life for many reasons. In the case of Mugwort, it was waking up one day and suddenly knowing how to use chainmail, trident, cast several (benign) spells and speaking a weird human dead language. Totally messed up his plan for his life. When he's rich and can raise the dead and such, maybe he'll get over it :)
one_winged_angel720 07-28-05, 09:41 PM	It's so people can do the whole "unwanted power" thing for angsty RP XP. IMO Warlock should have been flavored MUCH more generically--celestials, genies, demons/devils, elementals, fey, slaadi, or formians could be the result of the Warlocks powers and several options could have been presented for flavoring the class for the specific source he has. If you read the description of the class, you would notice that they DID in fact make it generic: Warlocks are not half-fiends or tieflings by default (although many creatures of those kinds become some of the most powerful and terryfing representatives of the class). The mark that the supernatural powers leave on their servants is often a mark on the soul, not the flesh. In fact, many warlocks are created by nonevil powers--wild or fey forces that can be every bit as dangerous as demons or devils. Now, this doesn't cover every contingency, but its not supposed to, because the Warlock is meant to represent an internal struggle with uncontrollable, chaotic power. The source of this power is up to the player to decide; in fact, I currently play an elven warlock who is the result of an ancient faerie prophecy. Touched by the powers of fey, they've marked my destiny even before my birth. I not only contend with my growing powers, but I contend with a society that sees me as nothing more than a tool. All this, and not a devil or demon in sight.