Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Geek_of_Doom 12-22-06, 02:30 PM	Ok, there's a wall of text ahead, so be ready. Alright, I'm starting a game with a new DM after the new year. Now, he's not really "new", as we had a game with him before. It just fell apart due to some rule disputes (Including making spell damage getting reduced by DR. And not telling us this was the standard rule. We just trusted him since we were still learning). But we decided to give him another chance. So, we talked about character creation. He said any PHB/DMG Prestige Class was fine, and any other book wants would be handled on a case-by-case basis. Ok, I didn't have any problem with that. So, I wanted to be a wizard, and specialize in conjuration. He said something similar to "Ok, but the one extra spell per spell level will be random". That confused me. It seemed a litte unfair. I told him that, and he said "Well, I could make all your spells random, since that's all they had to teach you." So I just gave up on that He agreed to let me specialize, but by then I had chosen to be a different character. A warmage, this time. So I did that, and my character looks good now. We're starting at level 3. He decided to roll 5d6*100 starting gold. We got 2200. He changed it to 2000, because he "magically took it away". Ok, that was kinda weird, but I got over it. I started looking to buying magical gear, but he said "You can't buy any magical items. You hve to quest for them". Ok, whatever. So I was making my feat choices, and I wanted to take a feat out of the complete arcane, where my class came from. He said "You can only take feats out of the PHB until the game starts." Yet another thing that seems a bit off. But I got over it. Since I get an extra spell as per my Advanced Learning, I wanted to take it out of the spell compendium. He wouldn't let me. He wouldn't let me use it until after the game starts. So, with all that there, is he unreasonable?
UAMDB 12-22-06, 02:42 PM	Yes and NO He already stated that anything that does not come out of the two main books was on a case by case situtation. I see nothing wrong with a DM limiting what source books he/she allows. In the game I run I am pretty open. In the game I play, the DM has limits on which races are allowed because of the area that we are in. He even limits which classes we can start out as. When our characters are exposed to new classes we can pick them up. With the money it is completely up to the DM as to how much you start out with, and how much you can spent on one item. If he wants to limit magical items since you are only 3rd level he has all the right to do so. As far as the extra spell being random.... I'm not sure what you mean. If he means that the spell you prepare is random then he is off base. If he means the extra spell that is in your spell book is random, then he could have a point there. After all it is his campaign, and you knew the rules before you started playing. You can always just not play, and even try to get others to not play as well.
wonlee76 12-22-06, 02:43 PM	The stuff regarding Spell Compendium and picking feats from Complete Arcane is legit as far as I can tell. He did say anything outside of the PHB/DMG needed his approval and his only stipulation was to limit access to those books until the game was underway. He may have a story reason for it or maybe he considers certain feats/spells to be "quest" material that requires training or learning from NPCs. As for the magical items, I usually use a no magic item rule for 3rd level or lower with the exception of 1 use items such as potions and scrolls. His rule seems a bit more restrictive but then again, there are games with no "magic shops" around or your game is starting in an area where there are no "maigc shops". After deciding to roll for starting wealth and then changing the results sounds like a bad omen though. Combined with his ruling about specialist wizards... Sounds like you're going to be annoyed at this DM in the long run or at least I would be if I had to deal with such nonsense. The other stuff I could understand but changing the rules in the PHB and agreeing to roll for starting wealth and reneging on that agreement... Who knows what else he might do in the future.
Geek_of_Doom 12-22-06, 02:49 PM	As far as the extra spell being random.... I'm not sure what you mean. If he means that the spell you prepare is random then he is off base. That's what I meant. I would get to prepare one extra spell (of the chosen school) per spell level. He would make that spell random
Puca 12-22-06, 03:20 PM	His rule on specialized wizards is just wacky. Seriously, how is an additional spell a benefit if it has as much chance of being Mount as Mage Armor? You gave up two freakin schools for chrisake. Wizards prepare spells. Ive always assumed they could pick the ones they prepare. Sure, he could do anything he wants, but the result is you play another class. I also dont understand why he would have you roll 5d6 for starting gold, which has a max of 3000, if he really wanted the max to be 2000. 2200 is above average, but roughly half the results of dice rolls are. :) While the rest of his rulings are legit on the surface, not starting with magic items and limiting access to spells and feats are both pretty common, I think youre right to be suspicious of any ruling that comes from someone with proven track record of making dumb calls.
Abulafia 12-22-06, 04:15 PM	Let's adjudicate this on an item-by-item basis . . . So, we talked about character creation. He said any PHB/DMG Prestige Class was fine, and any other book wants would be handled on a case-by-case basis. Ok, I didn't have any problem with that. So, I wanted to be a wizard, and specialize in conjuration. He said something similar to "Ok, but the one extra spell per spell level will be random". That confused me. It seemed a litte unfair. I told him that, and he said "Well, I could make all your spells random, since that's all they had to teach you." Unfairly arbitrary, and puzzlingly so. I don't like that "I could . . . " bit. We're starting at level 3. He decided to roll 5d6*100 starting gold. We got 2200. He changed it to 2000, because he "magically took it away". The wealth by level guidelines from the DMG put a 3rd-level PC's gear at 2,700. 5d6*100 spits out an average of 1750, so he was setting up to screw you to begin with. Docking 200 for no reason is a little arbitrary. I started looking to buying magical gear, but he said "You can't buy any magical items. You hve to quest for them".Not unreasonable if there's a good in-game reason for it (party's in a small town, etc.); otherwise a little . . . arbitrary (there's that word again). So I was making my feat choices, and I wanted to take a feat out of the complete arcane, where my class came from. He said "You can only take feats out of the PHB until the game starts."There's nothing wrong, per se, with limiting which feats a player can take, but blocking otherwise-allowable feats until gameplay begins is just bizarrely (wait for it) arbitrary. Since I get an extra spell as per my Advanced Learning, I wanted to take it out of the spell compendium. He wouldn't let me. He wouldn't let me use it until after the game starts.Same analysis as above. It's not the what, but the WHY that concerns me here. It sounds like your DM is getting off on making decisions and pushing people around. Each one of the decisions is more or less defensible, given sufficient in-game justifications, but based on what you're saying I can't see any. Play for a while and see what happens. If the guy grows out of his "Me big bad DM!!! Me smash tiny players!!!" phase (it loses its appeal after a while for most people), maybe you'll have an enjoyable game. If not, find a new game.
High Octane 12-22-06, 04:49 PM	If the DM had good reason for his decisions, they arent unreasonable at all. The problem is, as Abulafia pointed out, that the restrictions seem arbitrary. Nothing the DM restricted seems unreasonable, but I just get the FEELING that hes a control freak and this will come to a head later. The problem that happens sometimes is the power of a DM can make someone ready and wanting to use it. He seems to be Throwing Rule 0 into every decision made. Changing the wealth level for example, though 2k is not an unreasonable number for a level 3 character to have either way, neither is 2200. Why change it? His thinly veiled threat also concerns me. As for restricting Complete Arcane, thats completely reasonable, but I dont think he though it all the way through in your case. You chose a Warmage, which is a class that originated in Complete Arcane. Thus feats and other things that are meant for your class arent found in the PHB. Hes basically given you a class option but not the support it will need. However he did mention he might allow it after the game starts. Oh as for the random thing, it really doesnt make sense. Specialists are FOCUSED on their spell choice probably more than generalists.
Salla 12-22-06, 09:01 PM	Something is, proverbially, rotten in Denmark, yes. I'll rate the weirdness on a 1-10 scale, with 10 being 'WTF'. Doing 'random starting gold, then picking a value anyway' seems weird to me, but not too bad. (4) Making your bonus spell for specializing random seems REALLY weird to me, since you freakin' pick it out of a book and intentionally study it. (10) Threatening to make all your spells random. (11 -- yes, I know I said 1-10, but this one goes to 11. Actually, make it 12.) No magic items. Very unusual, unless he's said that it's a low-magic world or put you in an IC situation where you don't have any (the infamous 'captured and stripped' scenario ... but if that was the case, why do you have money?). (7) Restricting your Advanced Learning (or whatever it was called) to the PHB only really screws you, because there's precisely one choice for an evocation spell in the PHB that isn't on the Warmage List: Everybody's favorite halfling rickshaw, Tenser's Floating Disk. (3) That's my analysis ... these seem to be very, very poorly thought out ideas and rulings.
primemover003 12-22-06, 09:17 PM	Ask him to justify why he's making those rulings if it won't give away something campaign related. Secondly point him in the direction of the boards, this thread especially to see what other DM's and Players have to say about some of his rulings. Sure he might not care, but it's always nice to have fresh perspective.
OravennasBrother 12-23-06, 12:37 AM	In a word, NO. The cash issue is just too bad, you're not as rich as you'd like. I've often limitted FIRST level spell selection by what was available from different "Mentors" - though RAW after 1st is all from personal research. Still not too bad. The rest of the complaints are your problem; I always restrict non-core and never allow non-core classes.
Darkmatter20 12-23-06, 09:46 AM	After reading that your post at the start I'm going to go with others here and say " It gives me an odd feeling ". Seriously I think this guy is heading or tending towards, as Abulafia put it:) , ""Me big bad DM!!! Me smash tiny players!!!".
mightymouse1107 12-23-06, 12:13 PM	My group plays VERY fast and loose with RAW, we have literally pages of mutually agreed upon house rules. Moreover each DM has particular tendencies (no one, for instance, pays attention to the "recommended wealth" part of the DMG. We find it ridiculous and restrictive) going from wandering around with mundane items, minor magic being a big deal through 5th, 6th and 7th level all the way to extreme monty-haulism and a plethora of items available by 4th level. So when I say something strange is going on, its not because your DM isn't following RAW exactly or because he chooses to make there be item shops or not. It is, as others have said, the arbitrariness of it. He elected to have you roll 5d6x100 gold. That means that he was willing to let your starting gold be 500, if you were extremely unlucky, or 3000 if you were extremely lucky, or anything in between. Magicking away 200 gold is disturbing, and seems less like "I have my house rules, here they are" (that would have been sticking to the results of the roll) and more like "I'm the DM, I have absolute power to make anything I want to happen, at my whim" which is not the role of DM, regardless of how many house rules he/she makes. If a DM makes house rules, as is perfectly within the DM's rights, the DM is also obligated to obey them. In other words, if specialists randomize, so must the NPC specialists. If the DM's evoker's, necromancers, transmuters, etc. all seem to have optimized spell preparation, you may want to ask if they are randomizing spells as well. The physics of the game world don't just work a certain way for PC's, they also work that way for NPC's.
Serrin 12-24-06, 01:55 AM	I bet his casters wouldn't ever specialize. Besides, what kind of opposing caster lives long enough to run through his highest two levels of spells and then some? Nah. Specializing is too much bookkeeping for a DM when you throw in whacky houserules like random specialization slots. Even if every one of his casters specialize and follow the same rules, it doesn't matter, it's still unfair to the players. Consider the following hypothetical houserule: "Every time an entity rolls a d20, it must roll a secondary d20, and if the results do not match, that entity explodes in a torrent of gore, instantly dying and dealing 20d10 damage to everything in a 50' radius".
Sssargoth 12-24-06, 02:01 AM	As for restricting Complete Arcane, thats completely reasonable, but I dont think he though it all the way through in your case. You chose a Warmage, which is a class that originated in Complete Arcane. Sorry man, but I just have to point out that the War Mage origionated in the Miniatures Handbook and was reprinted in Complete Arcane. I think they reprinted it mostly because they noticed that they gave the war mage up to 9th level spells, but the spell list in the book only went up to 5th level. Other than that observation, I have to agree with everyone else here. Lets just hope he changes his ways before he earns the right to get a hammer to the face from the hammer gun.
High Octane 12-25-06, 01:17 AM	Sorry man, but I just have to point out that the War Mage origionated in the Miniatures Handbook and was reprinted in Complete Arcane. I think they reprinted it mostly because they noticed that they gave the war mage up to 9th level spells, but the spell list in the book only went up to 5th level. Other than that observation, I have to agree with everyone else here. Lets just hope he changes his ways before he earns the right to get a hammer to the face from the hammer gun. Well even if it didnt originate in Complete Arcane, Complete Arcane is still going to be the best repository of support for the warmage in options like feats and even prestige classes.