Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WiltChamberlain 02-03-05, 09:35 PM	Okay so last session has my group fuming over our game. We are playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and we just arrived in Nulb. We found an inn on the outskirts of town and having been warned about the haunting of the area we took precautions. First we had Hide from Undead cast on us (DC17), and detect undead. We entered the inn and detected a strong undead on the second floor. A couple characters searched behind the bar and found nothing, so we headed upstairs. We all figured it would be a ghost since there was only a single aura detected (which we voiced several times). We went up to the door which had the undead behind it and our Pelor cleric quicken turned it. The undead in question turned out to be an Allip and not a ghost... which is actually a moderate strength undead and not strong. Just then our Ranger was sneak/ death attacked by the ghost (apparently he sved the Hide from Undead spell) that just manifested. Initiative was rolled and we fought the ghost. None of us had a ghost touch weapon but we all had magic and got lucky on our miss chance rolls and defeated the ghost. Also we noted that the ghost was attacking physically without having to roll a miss chance. (IE ghost touch). On our way down the stairs we noticed some loose floor boards behind the bar (but not before when we searched it). WE found his body with the sword, which I remarked "sweet we've got a ghost touch weapon now." We left Nulb and camped for the night, and my cohort cast Identify on the sword, and my DM informed me it was +1 only. We were all a little confused by this and our DM informed us that when a ghost becomes a ghost all his equipment becomes ghost touch, but only for him. Huh? Anyway... anybody got any thoughts on this? Is my DM just giving us the ass because we prepared and made our saves against his ghost? (I'm sure he was hoping to kill at least one of us) Also this seems to be a running theme in this adventure that the treasure only works for the bad guy... and once we get it it stops working or becomes worth less GP.
Razoreface 02-03-05, 10:00 PM	The undead in question turned out to be an Allip and not a ghost... which is actually a moderate strength undead and not strong. Allip, 4HD. Advancement: 5-10 HD Medium. Even a by-the-book Allip can be a strong aura if it's advanced anywhere within that range. Just then our Ranger was sneak/ death attacked by the ghost The Allip or a ghost? Allips don't have equipment, and don't use weapons anyway. They wouldn't get the ability drain if they did. We left Nulb and camped for the night, and my cohort cast Identify on the sword, and my DM informed me it was +1 only. Better than not a ghost touch sword. We were all a little confused by this and our DM informed us that when a ghost becomes a ghost all his equipment becomes ghost touch, but only for him. Huh? You might want to ask your DM if that's his ruling, but it's not how they work as written. Anyway... anybody got any thoughts on this? Is my DM just giving us the ass because we prepared and made our saves against his ghost? (I'm sure he was hoping to kill at least one of us) Also this seems to be a running theme in this adventure that the treasure only works for the bad guy... and once we get it it stops working or becomes worth less GP. Maybe. Maybe a lot of it he doesn't know any better. Maybe he has set rulings of his own for various things. Though if that's the case, the group should have full knowledge of those rulings. If he was targetting a guy with low Wisdom for no obvious reason, he may have been trying to kill them.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-03-05, 10:59 PM	I see nothing wrong in making the sword just a +1 (loosing the ghost touch). It was a power of the ghost. Maybe in the Monster Manual, ghosts don't have this ability. I don't know. But in your DM's world, they do. He's not bound by the Monster Manual, you know. Also, the DM has to be careful when equiping his NPC. He has to provide a challenge to his PC, but at the same time, any item the bad guy has is gonna be looted... You don't want to give your PC too much power too fast... As long as you don't do it too often, nerfing down an item when the PC get it is ok. Maybe the uses were all used up, it worked only for his class/race/alignement/himself, it could have a special activation needed for the power, need to be bonded... Who knows?
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-04-05, 01:15 AM	Sorry but I gotta say this, honestly though it sounds like you all were metagaming. Have any of your current characters ever come across undead before? And how did you know to search behind the bar right off the bat like that? Especially when you detected the undead on the second floor. Were you expecting something like oh, I don't know, say a ghost touch weapon? Personally as a DM I punish metagamers as well, you want that treasure then earn it honestly, not through metagaming.
WiltChamberlain 02-04-05, 01:55 AM	Exactly the undead was upstrairs and not coming down... so we had time to loot the empty room. The characters that searched behind the bar were expecting to find maybe and strong box (cash register) maybe some wine bottles that might be worth something. As were normally do in most dungeons... we search the current room before moving on to the next. Isn't that standard practice? As far as IN CHARACTER information goes... none of our current characters have encountered a ghost before, but our Undead specialist Cleric of Pelor rolled about a 30 on his Knowledge religion check, which should be MORE than enough to know the specifics of ghosts abilities and limitations. Therefore the only meta-gaming we did was assume the DM was following the rules as per the MM. This is why our group always puts ranks into the various knowledge skills, so we can apply OOC knowledge with IC knowledge, and NOT metagame. On an unrelated note. I like your name On the wings of a TPK. Our adventuring party is actually called The Company of the TPK*, which is the intials of its founding members, and thusly named because we have avoided a TPK due to VERY lucky rolls on countless occasions * Jeff'll prolly get away
Wil Harvey 02-04-05, 02:58 AM	I apologize for having no insight into the topic at hand, but I do have this: I think you would do well to never utter the phrase "giving me the ass" ever again, unless it's in much, much different circumstances and with a much, much different person. But I digress.
Santrilla 02-04-05, 03:07 AM	Therefore the only meta-gaming we did was assume the DM was following the rules as per the MM. Arguably the worst kind. Never, ever assume you know what your DM is planning/thinking, because if you voice or act on that assumption you'll almost certainly be wrong. "Actually, in my campaign trolls are fire resistant. Now who packed frost weapons?"
Szat 02-04-05, 06:43 AM	I'm going to cast my lot in the "metagaming" pool. Expecting the ghost to be something because you know what a ghost is in the MM is metagaming
Skadrian 02-04-05, 09:11 AM	But if they rolled a 30 on the knowledge ckeck the DM should have told them specs from the ghost as it is in his campaign, so if it is different from the MM one he should have told.
Doug McCrae 02-04-05, 09:32 AM	Never, ever assume you know what your DM is planning/thinking, because if you voice or act on that assumption you'll almost certainly be wrong.I find that I'm usually right, actually. It's not that hard. If the DM has an old man approach us with tales of a mighty giant threatening a town, I assume the DM wants us to deal with the giant in some way.
Doug McCrae 02-04-05, 09:33 AM	Oh yeah.
Phrennzy 02-04-05, 09:47 AM	"Giving me the ass." What a quaint turn of phrase. How about this: Perhaps the strong aura of the advanced Allip masked the aura of the ghost - the aura of the ghost does not grow strong until he attacks. As for the weapon - as DM I wouldn't feel the need to explain why the weapon worked for the ghost and not for the heros as a ghost touch. Perhaps it's a Life Touch - It negates the miss chance for non-corporeals to hit corporeals. But in the hands of a corporeal, it is useless. Maybe its a +5 Noncorporeal Avenger. In the hands of the living, it's only +1. But when a ghost uses it, it's +5 Ghost. Your assumptions about the weapon tread on the meta side. Just write this off as 'a sense of mystery remains' in the world. And not as the DM's screw up. But I would show him this thread and present your concerns - but without the word "ass" any where in the conversation.
Mordmorgan the Mad 02-04-05, 09:50 AM	Also we noted that the ghost was attacking physically without having to roll a miss chance. (IE ghost touch). Hate to break it to you, but a ghost doesn't have to roll a miss chance to attack a corporeal foe on the material plane while manifested. If the ghost was wielding the sword he held in life, that weapon would have to be a ghost touch weapon, but by the way you described it, I think the weapon was probably an extension of the ghost (not a seperate weapon). If it was a seperate weapon, it would have fallen to the ground (or disappeared into the ethereal plane) when the ghost was defeated, not reappeared beneath the floorboards behind the bar. Check out Skip Williams' articles on incorporeality (article #1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a), article #2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a), article #3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041012a), article #4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041019a)) Oh, and give your DM a break. DM's are allowed to do things that don't immediately make sense. As long as they're consistant, you don't have much of an arguement other than "I don't like the way you do this."
alecthemad 02-04-05, 11:42 AM	I happen to own the module so let me clear some things up without giving a bunch of stuff away: 1) The bar is described as noticably colder than the other parts of the 1st floor, perhap that is the reason for the searching. 2) The sword is indeed listed as +1 ghost touch long sword under the entry for the ghost. 3) Your DM was nice to you as there is no treasure listed as hidden by the bar. 4) Ghosts are not permanently and certainly defeated unless a special requirement is met. Something that relates to their life and death. They will reform if that requirement is not met. 5) I would not freak out, there is plenty of nice treasure in this adventure and you are just scratching the surface. (Wizards get kinda screwed since it is a temple full of clerics, but a few times they get a big pay off).
crisshepherd 02-04-05, 01:52 PM	see mm pg 118 .. Ghostly Equipment magic weapon can effect material creatures when manifested with a 50% miss chance unless that weapon is ghost touch. Oh .. and the skip williams articles say nothing to the contrary. The DM reserves the right to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. All in the name of good fun. "Here is the part where you save or die." "Yay we survived .. and found treasure!" "Yeah that treasure is not very good. The sword transforms into a nerf bat when you pick it up." Yes - you have received the a$$.
TroubleWolf 02-04-05, 01:59 PM	I totally thought this topic was going to be about a guy whose DM is his girlfriend. What a let-down.
The man they call Boxhead 02-04-05, 02:23 PM	Haven't identified anything in a while... but doesn't it reveral only the lowest power of the weapon? I.e., a +1 ghost touch weapon id's as a +1 until its other powers are discovered.
crisshepherd 02-04-05, 02:43 PM	3.5 ID does all powers of a single item 'cept for artifacts. 3rd edition did 1 power of many items. The only rational explanation is that your DM is irrational. Not an uncommon occurence.
Fanatic-Templar 02-04-05, 03:10 PM	Well, the rest has been mentioned, so I'll focus of the Invisibility to Undead spell. Did you tell your DM characters could voluntarily fail their saving throws?
simen_88 02-04-05, 03:40 PM	No, your DM has not been handing you his arse. He didn't make the module, and I haven't read it, so he may have a very good reason for making treasure work only for the bad guys. Would the treasure have unbalanced your party? Chrisshepherd, do you by any chance work as a DJ? Or do you just have the same name as someone I know?