Is Speed 20 bad? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is Speed 20 bad? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SkippyBarnes
01-09-04, 03:12 PM My 4th level fighter finally has enough money to buy some serious armor. This is the first time I've played a tank since way back in 2E. Here's the skinny: It's a pirate-themed campaign. There's nothing stronger than studded leather in the rest of the party. So I'll be the only PC knocked down to speed 20 (unless the guy who plays the halfling bothers to show up). I'm not worried about the Swim checks because the silly new 3.5 swim rules pretty much let my STR 18 half-orc carry a horse into the water and have a good chance of swimming.

I'm trying to think of all the ways my reduced speed might get used against me. I understand it on the micro-level: I move less squares per round in combat. But on a macro-level: what about overland movement, retreat situations, etc?

I understand the rules but I'm interested to hear how they have affected other tanks.

Thanks
Rian Lightblade
01-09-04, 04:08 PM How much money does your PC have? If he has enough to pay for what ever armor he want (medium size I would think) and an extra 4000gp he can get a hold of Mithril Armor which would function like light armor for his speed. If you can't afford that then just get a Chain Shirt and a Amulet of Natural Armor +1 ( should be around 2200gp) You'll get a +1 NA and +4 Ar and Dex bonus (up to +4) to your AC which will give you a min AC of 15 before Dex (which is as good as any medium size armor) plus you'll still be able to move at 30ft.
paolung
01-09-04, 05:27 PM or, take a level of barbarian.

you'll gain rage (always useful) and fast movement at 1st level, meaning you can wear up to medium armor and still run along at 30 (40 in light or no armor)

it's your favored class anyways, so no exp penalty either.
spasheridan
01-09-04, 05:33 PM In my opinion you either go the chain (mithral) shirt or full plate. Medium armor is a bad choice except for level 1 chars with no cash. If your dex is less than 16 go with the full plate. 16 or higher use the chain shirt. Speed is nice, but not as important as AC.

OF course, if you're a climbing / running / swimming character, full plate is just dead weight, but other than that it's always a nice option.

If I was in a pirate campaign I'd stick with a chain shirt, maybe Dastana if yer DM allows it, and some apropo weapon like a cutlass and dagger.
eudas
01-09-04, 05:40 PM explain to me how the swim rules are flimsy?

if you wear armor with a -7 ACP, that gives you a -14 to your swim check. that's not inconsequential; most characters don't focus on Swim, so will have no more than say, +5 on average, which gives approx -9 to swim...

if you fail a swim check by 5 or more you go underwater...
if you go underwater, you start to drown...

how are swim checks wimpy then?

eudas
SkippyBarnes
01-10-04, 02:00 PM eudas, I see your point about Swim. I just liked the 3.0 rule of -1 for every 5 pounds of gear.

In 3.5, my STR 18 Fighter can strap on a 30 pound breastplate AND carry an extra 170 POUNDS of gear (an anvil maybe?). He'll only suffer the -8 penalty for the breastplate since that is more than the penalty for medium encumbrance. Page 161 of the PH says "Do not stack the penalties." He's 4th level with 6 ranks in Swim plus 4 STR bonus and -8 penalty for armor. That's still +2. You only sink if you fail a Swim check by 5 or more. So, he can jump into rough water (DC15) carrying these 200 pounds of gear and still only have a 40% chance of sinking. At some point, it shouldn't be a matter of how well you can swim. It's simply a matter of physics.

But who cares? If I wanted reality all the time, I'd complain about fireballs too. Anyway, I don't want this to become a thread about Swim. Thanks to all for the suggestions about heavy armor. Unfortunately I can't afford mithral.
Josh Wilhoyte
01-12-04, 02:01 PM Take the armor (get Mithral when you can) and save up for the new Boots of Springing and Striding. The +10 move will offset the heavy armor penalties, and you'll have a new +5 to your Jump check to boot.
Salla
01-12-04, 02:43 PM So far, in a game where I'm the only person wearing any significant armor, the only time I've really lamented my 20' move is when everybody needs to move through a narrow passageway or a single door ... because either I'm blocking them because I can't get through fast enough, or I'm stuck in the back of the traffic jam because I'm moving slower and can't take a bow shot because of all the intervening bodies. :)
eudas
01-12-04, 03:29 PM Originally posted by SkippyBarnes
eudas, I see your point about Swim. I just liked the 3.5 rule of -1 for every 5 pounds of gear.

(snip)

But who cares? If I wanted reality all the time, I'd complain about fireballs too. Anyway, I don't want this to become a thread about Swim. Thanks to all for the suggestions about heavy armor. Unfortunately I can't afford mithral.

At the risk of continuing the derailment, the -1 per 5 lbs of gear was fine with me, as well, but it is nice not to have to keep track of it quite so closely; that kind of dependant measurement/derived statistics is more suitable for CRPG's, where you can make the computer autocalculate everything.

eudas
Thermanshs
01-12-04, 04:36 PM Originally posted by SkippyBarnes
So, he can jump into rough water (DC15) carrying these 200 pounds of gear and still only have a 40% chance of sinking. At some point, it shouldn't be a matter of how well you can swim.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!200 pounds of load means a -40 penalty on swim checks,what was that prevent-from sinking chance again?
Raist27m
01-12-04, 05:51 PM Salla- You shouldn't have any problems with you impeding others. They should be moving through friendly squares with no problems, as long as they don't want to share a square, you should be set.
Asmodeous
01-12-04, 11:40 PM your slow move rate can be a big advantage as well as a draw back. all your pals wont mind hiding behind you at the cost of moving slower, few people like to go first after all. You just have to be a nice tank for everybody. Agree to it, as long as the party healer goes second.

Move 20 does suck mostly though but can be fixed. There is also the long strider spell if you want to take a couple of spell castor levels to gain that. duration is an hour per level so its kind of neat.

On the swimming issue, first read page 84 of the phb under the swimming skill descriptor which refers to pages 123 & 162.
you do not stack the penalties from armor and load, you use the worst one. 200 pounds of gear is worse than armor check penalty on even full plate.
you jump into deep water carrying 200 pounds of gear, expect to find the bottom very quickly.
Salla
01-13-04, 08:26 AM Originally posted by Raist27m
Salla- You shouldn't have any problems with you impeding others. They should be moving through friendly squares with no problems, as long as they don't want to share a square, you should be set.

... you can do that? I assumed it was one to a square (for Medium-size, at least), no ifs ands or buts. Well ... joke's on me, there's something to bring up next game. :)
SkippyBarnes
01-14-04, 12:37 AM About Swim:

Thermanshs -
I'm talking about the 3.5 rules. Check 'em out. They got rid of the -1 penalty per 5 pounds of gear.

Asmodeous -
You're right, the penalties for armor and load don't stack. In my example, 200 pounds is a medium load for a STR 18 character. Medium load is a -3 penalty. Wearing a breastplate is a -4 penalty. So the penalty for carrying 200 pounds of gear essentially disappears. Kinda silly.

eudas -
You're right. The old rule (-1 per 5 lbs) was a little nit-picky. But it did have the distinct advantage of making a guy in full plate actually sink in water.

Anyway, no more swimming. Just let me know how DMs have hurt you for having a reduced speed. I want to be prepared. Thanks
cowdragon
01-14-04, 12:39 AM is speed 20 bad?

Well, it's speeding if you're in a school zone. :)

It's not bad actually, just some players prefer a little more mobility.

The Cowdragon :mage:
Endarire
01-14-04, 03:16 AM I like mobility and find that it's almost only worth it if you're a dwarf.

-EE
Mister Mayhem
01-14-04, 03:41 AM Just to point out that the 3.0 rules could hardly be considered perfect in this matter, since as far as staying afloat was concerned they made no distinction between carrying 200lbs of iron or 200lbs of balsawood...
Brainstrain
01-14-04, 08:40 PM If you're a tin can, you don't get to do as much fun stuff.

IE: Climb the crow's nest, charge attacks from the rigging, etc.

Although w/ 18 STR, you can just lob cannonballs at people ;)
Brainstrain
01-14-04, 08:40 PM If you're a tin can, you don't get to do as much fun stuff.

IE: Climb the crow's nest, charge attacks from the rigging, etc.

Although w/ 18 STR, you can just lob cannonballs at people ;)
Lord Darkblade
01-15-04, 10:16 AM Go with the full plate, the enemy will never attack you as they will die of laughter...

"Hey whats that, a man in full plate in the rigging, I must be going blind!"
"HEHEHEHEHEHE...."

TWACK FWACKBOOM and other cool sounding hitting words!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SkippyBarnes 01-09-04, 03:12 PM	My 4th level fighter finally has enough money to buy some serious armor. This is the first time I've played a tank since way back in 2E. Here's the skinny: It's a pirate-themed campaign. There's nothing stronger than studded leather in the rest of the party. So I'll be the only PC knocked down to speed 20 (unless the guy who plays the halfling bothers to show up). I'm not worried about the Swim checks because the silly new 3.5 swim rules pretty much let my STR 18 half-orc carry a horse into the water and have a good chance of swimming. I'm trying to think of all the ways my reduced speed might get used against me. I understand it on the micro-level: I move less squares per round in combat. But on a macro-level: what about overland movement, retreat situations, etc? I understand the rules but I'm interested to hear how they have affected other tanks. Thanks
Rian Lightblade 01-09-04, 04:08 PM	How much money does your PC have? If he has enough to pay for what ever armor he want (medium size I would think) and an extra 4000gp he can get a hold of Mithril Armor which would function like light armor for his speed. If you can't afford that then just get a Chain Shirt and a Amulet of Natural Armor +1 ( should be around 2200gp) You'll get a +1 NA and +4 Ar and Dex bonus (up to +4) to your AC which will give you a min AC of 15 before Dex (which is as good as any medium size armor) plus you'll still be able to move at 30ft.
paolung 01-09-04, 05:27 PM	or, take a level of barbarian. you'll gain rage (always useful) and fast movement at 1st level, meaning you can wear up to medium armor and still run along at 30 (40 in light or no armor) it's your favored class anyways, so no exp penalty either.
spasheridan 01-09-04, 05:33 PM	In my opinion you either go the chain (mithral) shirt or full plate. Medium armor is a bad choice except for level 1 chars with no cash. If your dex is less than 16 go with the full plate. 16 or higher use the chain shirt. Speed is nice, but not as important as AC. OF course, if you're a climbing / running / swimming character, full plate is just dead weight, but other than that it's always a nice option. If I was in a pirate campaign I'd stick with a chain shirt, maybe Dastana if yer DM allows it, and some apropo weapon like a cutlass and dagger.
eudas 01-09-04, 05:40 PM	explain to me how the swim rules are flimsy? if you wear armor with a -7 ACP, that gives you a -14 to your swim check. that's not inconsequential; most characters don't focus on Swim, so will have no more than say, +5 on average, which gives approx -9 to swim... if you fail a swim check by 5 or more you go underwater... if you go underwater, you start to drown... how are swim checks wimpy then? eudas
SkippyBarnes 01-10-04, 02:00 PM	eudas, I see your point about Swim. I just liked the 3.0 rule of -1 for every 5 pounds of gear. In 3.5, my STR 18 Fighter can strap on a 30 pound breastplate AND carry an extra 170 POUNDS of gear (an anvil maybe?). He'll only suffer the -8 penalty for the breastplate since that is more than the penalty for medium encumbrance. Page 161 of the PH says "Do not stack the penalties." He's 4th level with 6 ranks in Swim plus 4 STR bonus and -8 penalty for armor. That's still +2. You only sink if you fail a Swim check by 5 or more. So, he can jump into rough water (DC15) carrying these 200 pounds of gear and still only have a 40% chance of sinking. At some point, it shouldn't be a matter of how well you can swim. It's simply a matter of physics. But who cares? If I wanted reality all the time, I'd complain about fireballs too. Anyway, I don't want this to become a thread about Swim. Thanks to all for the suggestions about heavy armor. Unfortunately I can't afford mithral.
Josh Wilhoyte 01-12-04, 02:01 PM	Take the armor (get Mithral when you can) and save up for the new Boots of Springing and Striding. The +10 move will offset the heavy armor penalties, and you'll have a new +5 to your Jump check to boot.
Salla 01-12-04, 02:43 PM	So far, in a game where I'm the only person wearing any significant armor, the only time I've really lamented my 20' move is when everybody needs to move through a narrow passageway or a single door ... because either I'm blocking them because I can't get through fast enough, or I'm stuck in the back of the traffic jam because I'm moving slower and can't take a bow shot because of all the intervening bodies. :)
eudas 01-12-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by SkippyBarnes eudas, I see your point about Swim. I just liked the 3.5 rule of -1 for every 5 pounds of gear. (snip) But who cares? If I wanted reality all the time, I'd complain about fireballs too. Anyway, I don't want this to become a thread about Swim. Thanks to all for the suggestions about heavy armor. Unfortunately I can't afford mithral. At the risk of continuing the derailment, the -1 per 5 lbs of gear was fine with me, as well, but it is nice not to have to keep track of it quite so closely; that kind of dependant measurement/derived statistics is more suitable for CRPG's, where you can make the computer autocalculate everything. eudas
Thermanshs 01-12-04, 04:36 PM	Originally posted by SkippyBarnes So, he can jump into rough water (DC15) carrying these 200 pounds of gear and still only have a 40% chance of sinking. At some point, it shouldn't be a matter of how well you can swim. ARE YOU SERIOUS?!200 pounds of load means a -40 penalty on swim checks,what was that prevent-from sinking chance again?
Raist27m 01-12-04, 05:51 PM	Salla- You shouldn't have any problems with you impeding others. They should be moving through friendly squares with no problems, as long as they don't want to share a square, you should be set.
Asmodeous 01-12-04, 11:40 PM	your slow move rate can be a big advantage as well as a draw back. all your pals wont mind hiding behind you at the cost of moving slower, few people like to go first after all. You just have to be a nice tank for everybody. Agree to it, as long as the party healer goes second. Move 20 does suck mostly though but can be fixed. There is also the long strider spell if you want to take a couple of spell castor levels to gain that. duration is an hour per level so its kind of neat. On the swimming issue, first read page 84 of the phb under the swimming skill descriptor which refers to pages 123 & 162. you do not stack the penalties from armor and load, you use the worst one. 200 pounds of gear is worse than armor check penalty on even full plate. you jump into deep water carrying 200 pounds of gear, expect to find the bottom very quickly.
Salla 01-13-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by Raist27m Salla- You shouldn't have any problems with you impeding others. They should be moving through friendly squares with no problems, as long as they don't want to share a square, you should be set. ... you can do that? I assumed it was one to a square (for Medium-size, at least), no ifs ands or buts. Well ... joke's on me, there's something to bring up next game. :)
SkippyBarnes 01-14-04, 12:37 AM	About Swim: Thermanshs - I'm talking about the 3.5 rules. Check 'em out. They got rid of the -1 penalty per 5 pounds of gear. Asmodeous - You're right, the penalties for armor and load don't stack. In my example, 200 pounds is a medium load for a STR 18 character. Medium load is a -3 penalty. Wearing a breastplate is a -4 penalty. So the penalty for carrying 200 pounds of gear essentially disappears. Kinda silly. eudas - You're right. The old rule (-1 per 5 lbs) was a little nit-picky. But it did have the distinct advantage of making a guy in full plate actually sink in water. Anyway, no more swimming. Just let me know how DMs have hurt you for having a reduced speed. I want to be prepared. Thanks
cowdragon 01-14-04, 12:39 AM	is speed 20 bad? Well, it's speeding if you're in a school zone. :) It's not bad actually, just some players prefer a little more mobility. The Cowdragon :mage:
Endarire 01-14-04, 03:16 AM	I like mobility and find that it's almost only worth it if you're a dwarf. -EE
Mister Mayhem 01-14-04, 03:41 AM	Just to point out that the 3.0 rules could hardly be considered perfect in this matter, since as far as staying afloat was concerned they made no distinction between carrying 200lbs of iron or 200lbs of balsawood...
Brainstrain 01-14-04, 08:40 PM	If you're a tin can, you don't get to do as much fun stuff. IE: Climb the crow's nest, charge attacks from the rigging, etc. Although w/ 18 STR, you can just lob cannonballs at people ;)
Brainstrain 01-14-04, 08:40 PM	If you're a tin can, you don't get to do as much fun stuff. IE: Climb the crow's nest, charge attacks from the rigging, etc. Although w/ 18 STR, you can just lob cannonballs at people ;)
Lord Darkblade 01-15-04, 10:16 AM	Go with the full plate, the enemy will never attack you as they will die of laughter... "Hey whats that, a man in full plate in the rigging, I must be going blind!" "HEHEHEHEHEHE...." TWACK FWACKBOOM and other cool sounding hitting words!