is that OK? [Archive] - Wizards Community

is that OK? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
coldfire_x
08-30-06, 03:35 AM example:Cold the human rogue use a dagger
cold sneaks behind an orc guardian with his left hand he shut the orc mouth rise his head quickly and with his right hand stab the orc's neck
then he grab his body,what he didnt noticed is "the bloody road" he leaved behind....

thare is something wrong/imposible to do hare?
{lets say the orc have 99999999999 HP}
Thubby
08-30-06, 03:59 AM im sorry, but whats the point of this thread???*confused*
allenchan
08-30-06, 04:02 AM Not sure what exactly you're asking here, but someone who isnt aware of you is NOT helpless, and so you CANNOT coup de grace them. The rogue would still gain sneak attack, but unless he did 99999999999d6 of extra damage, the Orc would still be alive.

Options for sneaky-sneak kills are: magic death effects, assassin ability, some uber-poisons, artifact weapons, high level feats, etc.

Also note that covering someone's mouth would be a grapple check, and immediately end the rogue's suprise round, which then means it would go to initiative and the orc might be able to react first, completely eliminating sneak attack possibility.

This is a small side effect of the HP rules, and if you really want to emphasis this kind of stealth kill (without having orcs with just low hp), considering alternates such as VP/WP and some kind of special critical hit variant.
Sinaz
08-30-06, 12:34 PM Your example is horribly flawed, mostly because of that hundred-billion hitpoint thing.

If you had any creature that was reasonably super-tough like you suggest, stabbing it in the throat, even as a surprise attack would be like clamping your hand on an elephant's trunk, stabbing it in the jugular with a toothpick and expecting it to silently die.

However, in a more reasonable situation, say with a PC trying to coup-de-grace an unaware orc or something, I give the player his sneak attack. If the damage were enough to kill the orc, then I let the player roleplay the muffling of the cry and the draggin of the body as fluff.

Besides, any rogue worth his salt would just stick his knife inbetween the orc's ribs, into the lung and let him drown on his own blood. Most of it stays in the body that way, and its not so easy to scream after such a shock.
thaylok
08-30-06, 01:50 PM Besides, any rogue worth his salt would just stick his knife inbetween the orc's ribs, into the lung and let him drown on his own blood. Most of it stays in the body that way, and its not so easy to scream after such a shock.

Just getting the heart is better... In the lungs, the heart still pumps the blood out the entry wound. Won't go into what i've seen/know... but that's best

and as others said.. grapple check... orc was not helpless (no CDG)...Str check for dragging the body... noise for stuffing it in a locker (with other appropriate str/dex checks).. and time to clean up the mess before the guard patrols find it...... highly unlikely.

I wouldn't allow my guys to do it at low level.
rogue_lettuce
08-30-06, 02:10 PM Coldfire, do you honestly believe your posts are constructive? I'm well aware of the CoC so I won't say anything untoward but perhaps you'd like to post more... carefully? So people understand you better?
kelvinaw273
08-30-06, 03:14 PM Really .. the monk can just snap the orc's neck without any blood. Or apply a chokehold (grapple attack, killing damage:D ).

Now monk-rogues really are the definition of a silent kill ....
Cthulhu3125
08-30-06, 07:42 PM example:Cold the human rogue use a dagger
cold sneaks behind an orc guardian with his left hand he shut the orc mouth rise his head quickly and with his right hand stab the orc's neck
then he grab his body,what he didnt noticed is "the bloody road" he leaved behind....

thare is something wrong/imposible to do hare?
{lets say the orc have 99999999999 HP}

Afraid I don't quite get the cut of your jib, my good fellow.
Seraphine_Harmonium
08-31-06, 12:28 AM Ra-Tiel has a campaign posted in the Campaign Workshop that uses an alternate wound sytem, making slitting someone's throat a significant treat. That requires a whole new system, though. Under the current system it would just deal sneak attack damage (assuming the orc doesn't know you're there). If you're not satisfied with this, you could always house-rule it to say they can make a coup de grace even though the orc is not technically helpless.
Ralvuimego
08-31-06, 12:53 AM I shall now proceed to translate what coldfire has posted.

"A dagger-wielding Human rogue named "Cold" sneaks up behind an orc, grapples him (Opting to prevent the orc from speaking), and stabs him in the throat with a dagger, killing him instantly.

After the messy business is done, Cold grabs the orc's body and drags it away to avoid it being discovered, but forgets to clean up the trail of blood the body leaves behind.*

Pretending that the orc has infinate hit points, would this work?"

(*= this statement is redundant, as it's simple logic to follow a blood trail, and to know what is at the end of it)

As for a response, what you have described is a sneak attack, the effect you're looking for is a Coup de Grace, which requires your foe to be helpless (IE: Held/Sleeping/Unconcious/Otherwise totally incapable of concious movement) The orc is struggling to break free of your grapple, so you can't make the precision of a Coup De Grace, but you can still get enough precision in to sneak attack.
Aeromus
08-31-06, 02:23 AM Everytime I see this guys post a small part of me dies.
Sulaco
08-31-06, 10:02 AM example:Cold the human rogue use a dagger
cold sneaks behind an orc guardian with his left hand he shut the orc mouth rise his head quickly and with his right hand stab the orc's neck
then he grab his body,what he didnt noticed is "the bloody road" he leaved behind....

thare is something wrong/imposible to do hare?
{lets say the orc have 99999999999 HP}

Is "Cold" the name of your Human Rogue PC? I don't get it.

:confused: (x10)
babysamurai
08-31-06, 10:08 AM Everytime I see this guys post a small part of me dies.

Well, he/she is obviously from Israel, so maybe English is not his/her first language.

Give them a break.
Aeromus
08-31-06, 10:57 AM Well, he/she is obviously from Israel, so maybe English is not his/her first language.

Give them a break.

I did give him a break. I even defended him for that same reason a dozen weird posts ago. Now though it's just gotten silly.
Cifer
08-31-06, 05:07 PM Cold has to be a member of the Assassin prestige class to do what he wants - otherwise, he can only hope that his sneak attack damage kills the orc.

And slowly, very slowly, I tend to agree with Aeromus. I'd advise you, Coldfire, to read some english books - they work wonders for your writing style.
DraconsNighthawk
08-31-06, 06:18 PM Well, he/she is obviously from Israel, so maybe English is not his/her first language.

Give them a break.

Indeed we have, but after his sprouting of all 18's in all his stats, (Twice!) then rolling 18,18,18,17,16,16 it just got too much. THen he demanded we dm him in solo gaming.

Bad english is one thing that I don't care, I can usually get the gist of it.
Stupidity is something i hate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
coldfire_x 08-30-06, 03:35 AM	example:Cold the human rogue use a dagger cold sneaks behind an orc guardian with his left hand he shut the orc mouth rise his head quickly and with his right hand stab the orc's neck then he grab his body,what he didnt noticed is "the bloody road" he leaved behind.... thare is something wrong/imposible to do hare? {lets say the orc have 99999999999 HP}
Thubby 08-30-06, 03:59 AM	im sorry, but whats the point of this thread???confused
allenchan 08-30-06, 04:02 AM	Not sure what exactly you're asking here, but someone who isnt aware of you is NOT helpless, and so you CANNOT coup de grace them. The rogue would still gain sneak attack, but unless he did 99999999999d6 of extra damage, the Orc would still be alive. Options for sneaky-sneak kills are: magic death effects, assassin ability, some uber-poisons, artifact weapons, high level feats, etc. Also note that covering someone's mouth would be a grapple check, and immediately end the rogue's suprise round, which then means it would go to initiative and the orc might be able to react first, completely eliminating sneak attack possibility. This is a small side effect of the HP rules, and if you really want to emphasis this kind of stealth kill (without having orcs with just low hp), considering alternates such as VP/WP and some kind of special critical hit variant.
Sinaz 08-30-06, 12:34 PM	Your example is horribly flawed, mostly because of that hundred-billion hitpoint thing. If you had any creature that was reasonably super-tough like you suggest, stabbing it in the throat, even as a surprise attack would be like clamping your hand on an elephant's trunk, stabbing it in the jugular with a toothpick and expecting it to silently die. However, in a more reasonable situation, say with a PC trying to coup-de-grace an unaware orc or something, I give the player his sneak attack. If the damage were enough to kill the orc, then I let the player roleplay the muffling of the cry and the draggin of the body as fluff. Besides, any rogue worth his salt would just stick his knife inbetween the orc's ribs, into the lung and let him drown on his own blood. Most of it stays in the body that way, and its not so easy to scream after such a shock.
thaylok 08-30-06, 01:50 PM	Besides, any rogue worth his salt would just stick his knife inbetween the orc's ribs, into the lung and let him drown on his own blood. Most of it stays in the body that way, and its not so easy to scream after such a shock. Just getting the heart is better... In the lungs, the heart still pumps the blood out the entry wound. Won't go into what i've seen/know... but that's best and as others said.. grapple check... orc was not helpless (no CDG)...Str check for dragging the body... noise for stuffing it in a locker (with other appropriate str/dex checks).. and time to clean up the mess before the guard patrols find it...... highly unlikely. I wouldn't allow my guys to do it at low level.
rogue_lettuce 08-30-06, 02:10 PM	Coldfire, do you honestly believe your posts are constructive? I'm well aware of the CoC so I won't say anything untoward but perhaps you'd like to post more... carefully? So people understand you better?
kelvinaw273 08-30-06, 03:14 PM	Really .. the monk can just snap the orc's neck without any blood. Or apply a chokehold (grapple attack, killing damage:D ). Now monk-rogues really are the definition of a silent kill ....
Cthulhu3125 08-30-06, 07:42 PM	example:Cold the human rogue use a dagger cold sneaks behind an orc guardian with his left hand he shut the orc mouth rise his head quickly and with his right hand stab the orc's neck then he grab his body,what he didnt noticed is "the bloody road" he leaved behind.... thare is something wrong/imposible to do hare? {lets say the orc have 99999999999 HP} Afraid I don't quite get the cut of your jib, my good fellow.
Seraphine_Harmonium 08-31-06, 12:28 AM	Ra-Tiel has a campaign posted in the Campaign Workshop that uses an alternate wound sytem, making slitting someone's throat a significant treat. That requires a whole new system, though. Under the current system it would just deal sneak attack damage (assuming the orc doesn't know you're there). If you're not satisfied with this, you could always house-rule it to say they can make a coup de grace even though the orc is not technically helpless.
Ralvuimego 08-31-06, 12:53 AM	I shall now proceed to translate what coldfire has posted. "A dagger-wielding Human rogue named "Cold" sneaks up behind an orc, grapples him (Opting to prevent the orc from speaking), and stabs him in the throat with a dagger, killing him instantly. After the messy business is done, Cold grabs the orc's body and drags it away to avoid it being discovered, but forgets to clean up the trail of blood the body leaves behind.* Pretending that the orc has infinate hit points, would this work?" (*= this statement is redundant, as it's simple logic to follow a blood trail, and to know what is at the end of it) As for a response, what you have described is a sneak attack, the effect you're looking for is a Coup de Grace, which requires your foe to be helpless (IE: Held/Sleeping/Unconcious/Otherwise totally incapable of concious movement) The orc is struggling to break free of your grapple, so you can't make the precision of a Coup De Grace, but you can still get enough precision in to sneak attack.
Aeromus 08-31-06, 02:23 AM	Everytime I see this guys post a small part of me dies.
Sulaco 08-31-06, 10:02 AM	example:Cold the human rogue use a dagger cold sneaks behind an orc guardian with his left hand he shut the orc mouth rise his head quickly and with his right hand stab the orc's neck then he grab his body,what he didnt noticed is "the bloody road" he leaved behind.... thare is something wrong/imposible to do hare? {lets say the orc have 99999999999 HP} Is "Cold" the name of your Human Rogue PC? I don't get it. :confused: (x10)
babysamurai 08-31-06, 10:08 AM	Everytime I see this guys post a small part of me dies. Well, he/she is obviously from Israel, so maybe English is not his/her first language. Give them a break.
Aeromus 08-31-06, 10:57 AM	Well, he/she is obviously from Israel, so maybe English is not his/her first language. Give them a break. I did give him a break. I even defended him for that same reason a dozen weird posts ago. Now though it's just gotten silly.
Cifer 08-31-06, 05:07 PM	Cold has to be a member of the Assassin prestige class to do what he wants - otherwise, he can only hope that his sneak attack damage kills the orc. And slowly, very slowly, I tend to agree with Aeromus. I'd advise you, Coldfire, to read some english books - they work wonders for your writing style.
DraconsNighthawk 08-31-06, 06:18 PM	Well, he/she is obviously from Israel, so maybe English is not his/her first language. Give them a break. Indeed we have, but after his sprouting of all 18's in all his stats, (Twice!) then rolling 18,18,18,17,16,16 it just got too much. THen he demanded we dm him in solo gaming. Bad english is one thing that I don't care, I can usually get the gist of it. Stupidity is something i hate.