Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RenX99 10-18-06, 03:39 PM	Has anyone ever felt that their DM was stacking the game, making house rules, reinterpreting rules, using 'cheap tactics' etc because the DM felt that their goal in life was to defeat the PCs? I've seen different levels of this type of behavior in the games I've played in. Most recently, in the game I was in, it seemed that ALL monsters could fly by one means or another. They are all using disarm every round and on all attacks of opportunity (all with improved disarmed). Let me give a few more details... We are fighting a dragon which can obviously fly. The paladin charges into battle, provokes an AOO, the dragon disarms the pally, the weapon drops to the ground, about 60 feet. The weapon is declared broken. The cleric happens to have a spare sword (he holds it for the pally, due to the shear amount of disarms/sunders that occur in game) and gets it over to the pally. The pally tries again to attack the dragon. On the dragons turn, it again disarms the pally. The pally draws a dagger, gets disarmed, rinse and repeat as needed. I kid you not. Since all of this is mid-air combat, all the dropped weapons are destroyed. Is disarming against the rules? NO it's not, but repeatedly doing it seems to me to be cheap, and deliberately designed to frustrate the playing to no end. This was the battle right after my character was introduce (I just joined this group). I did not have any way to fly, until it was casted on me, and my great axe was immediately disarmed, and dropped and broken, leaving me weaponless for the rest of the fight. Okay, not totally weaponless... I did have a bow, which I'm useless with (frenzied berserker) and I of course missed repeatedly again this dragon. Okay so you might be thinking... but that's a dragon, they are supposed to be uber smart. Okay I can agree with that...but how about the mob after that? and the one after that? and so forth and so on. In just about every battle, someone is either disarmed, grappled, weapons sundered. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you have to make things challenging, but this is ridiculous. 90% of the fights were only winnable by the efforts of the casters. Melee fighters were useless (often weaponless). In addition to the above tactics, I swear that most of the magic casting mobs seem to have unlimited spells. One mind flayer we fought (yes it grappled, while using improved invisibility of course) must have dimensioned doored like 10 times in one combat. Also the only time we made any sort of spot/listen checks seemed to be whenever it was used to prevent us from doing something.... fail the check and suddenly you can't do X because you're not aware of it or what not. Opponents that were invisible were basically never attackable until you somehow dispel it. You could never attack because you can never find it.... you could never hear where it was (always failed listen checks), and you could never spot the rays that have been hitting you for multiple rounds. The final straw for me was when the mind flayer we fought earlier (it ran away after we started beating it down) snuck up on us during our first watch. Now we were in a sealed room, we had shaped stone over the opening of the cave, blocking it. I was on that watch. The mind flayer had apparently made itself invisible, and dimension doored into the room. I of course was completely unaware of any of this. Apparently it and dimension door with out any sounds, or visible elements... I did not get to make any spot/listen checks at all. We immediately go into a surprise round. I get hit by a ray to start, sapping my strength. I can not make the spot check required to find out which direction it came from, and I can't hear where it's coming from. I wake the rest of the party... and wait. I get zapped again. Finally we get the thing to be visible, and I frenzy. It zaps me, and I get 'dazed' which the DM rules breaks my frenzy. Then it of course promptly fly up into the air. So now, I'm -7 STR from the ray of enfeeblement, and -2 from my frenzy 'expiring'. I'm now down to 9 STR. So now, I'm totally crap in battle, and I can't reach the mob either, cause I can't fly. I've got a STR penalty to use my bow. I effectively just stand there for the rest of the fight useless. Only useful thing I could do was put my self physically between the mob and one of the casters as a literal meat shield. In all seriousness, I'm suprised I did not get disarmed, or grabbled. Anyway.. this is just a small example of the DMing that lead me to leave that game, it was just too frustrating and NOT FUN. If you can't have some fun in the game, what's the fricking point?
Maxwell_Silverhammer 10-18-06, 03:50 PM	wow....that sounds crappy...what kind of dragon was it? and what level were you guys? It seems odd that everything you go up against is proficient at disarming their opponents. maybe invest in those gauntlets that tie your weapon to your hand?
DarkNick 10-18-06, 03:54 PM	Sounds like he is stacking the game against you. I've had this before, and I am sorry to say that I have done it myself. Seems to be a symptom of a young DM (though not exclusively). Make sure you have a read of the rules for disarm, and the rules regarding damaging weapons. Depending on how high you are I think it is unlikley all your weapons would break (especially if they are magical). Buy a locked gauntlet (+10 for opposed disarm checks). My advise is that if it is not fun then stop playing/change DM/talk to the DM.
RenX99 10-18-06, 03:55 PM	The dragon I think was a shadow dragon? We were 13-15 level. Had I known of this type of behavior a head of time, I most certainly would have had improve disarm my self, and a spiked gauntlet to prevent all those disarms... or I would have just rolled a caster.. which seemed to have the upper hand in most encounters in this game.
wonlee76 10-18-06, 04:02 PM	I feel your pain but have you folks ever considered changing tactics a smidgon? This DM sounds pretty predictable in tha he will use every trick in the book against you (and bend a few rules while he's at it). Locking Gauntlets: Nice huge bonus to opposed disarm checks. Look into it. Sure its a move or standard action to lock the weapon but the bonus alone is worth it if the DM is into being a disarm monkey. Adamantite weapons: Good defense against Sunder with its high hardness and extra HP. Enlarge Spells: Enlarging the tanks = +4 bonuses to disarm, trip, sunder checks. As for the mind flayer tactics, you don't know for certain what level the mind flayer is or what it is capable of so its hard to judge whether your DM is "cheating" or not as to how many spells its casting and stuff. It could have magical items, is a sorceror, has a huge charisma modifier, etc. Too many factors to consider and too hard to prove your DM might be cheating. But admit, I would be suspicious if a mind flayer is able to dimension door 10 times in 1 fight unless this is an epic level campaign in which case, that's nothing. You made the right decision in leaving. You didn't like the game so you left. Some folks like these types of games. Hard fights, lots of thinking, strategy is valued over sheer melee prowess. Depending on how severe this game is on the DM vs. Player mentality, I would enjoy a game where I would need to change tactics or play my character as a swiss army knife and try to be prepared for anything the DM might toss at us.
Maxwell_Silverhammer 10-18-06, 04:04 PM	This could just be me, but I dont think that a game should be made to favor any class. There may be certain areas/enemies that are easier for some classes, but there shouldn't be classes that are excluded.
Elendur 10-18-06, 04:15 PM	Per the rules for falling objects, a 12lb great axe falling 60 feet would do 2d6 damage to whatever it fell on. Though the rules are silent, it's reasonable to assume that's how much damage the weapon itself would take, which is unlikely to break it. Even using the rules for characters falling, 6d6 isn't automatic destruction. A +2 greataxe, for example, has a 9 hardness and 30 hit points, insuring it's survival.
RenX99 10-18-06, 04:23 PM	You made the right decision in leaving. You didn't like the game so you left. Some folks like these types of games. Hard fights, lots of thinking, strategy is valued over sheer melee prowess. Depending on how severe this game is on the DM vs. Player mentality, I would enjoy a game where I would need to change tactics or play my character as a swiss army knife and try to be prepared for anything the DM might toss at us. I don't mind a challenge or having to think my way through a battle... I firmly believe that part of the problem I was having with this game was since I came in mid-campaign with out any knowledge of the group or DM I kept running into issues with their game. Every week it seemed I was learning about a house rule. When I first came to the game I had to educate them on the proper movement rules. There were no 'double moves' at all...ever. :eek: We also played with a wound/vitality system...not quite sure where they picked up the rules for it, but it was a print out. I've played with wounds and vitality before while playing Star Wars d20..but these just didn't seem to work quite right in the DnD world. I had a frenzied berserker which had a feat called 'deathless frenzy' which basically allows the me to continue fighting even if i go below -10 HPs, as long as I'm Frenzied. With the wound/vitality system it just didn't work right. In this system, if you are critically hit, the damage goes to wounds and you are 'disabled' and have to make a fort save every round to keep from dying. If you roll good enough you stabilize. The problem I ran into with this system became apparent when I fight another barbarian type mob that seem to crit ever other attack. My berserker (while frenzied) went from full heath to -30 in one hit. I go down. The cleric runs over and heals me up. I pop up on my feet, full vitality and wounds, I get critted again, down I go again... Happened a total of 3 times. The DM negated my deathless frenzy completely...mostly because he wasn't that familiar with the how frenzied berserkers work with the house ruled wounds/vitality. :confused: The next session I was able to get some sort of rules worked out for it...but for that battle I again was useless. Had I known about this wounds/vitality rules ahead of time... I wouldn't have rolled a frenzied berserker...at least not without hashing out the rules with him first. oh well... guess I start looking for another group. :(
RenX99 10-18-06, 04:31 PM	Per the rules for falling objects, a 12lb great axe falling 60 feet would do 2d6 damage to whatever it fell on. Though the rules are silent, it's reasonable to assume that's how much damage the weapon itself would take, which is unlikely to break it. Even using the rules for characters falling, 6d6 isn't automatic destruction. A +2 greataxe, for example, has a 9 hardness and 30 hit points, insuring it's survival. It's funny you say that... I had a +2 holy greataxe... destroyed. I brought those rules but it didn't sway the DM. His reasoning worked out like this... people fall for what is basically 1d6 per 10 feet. I think the weapon dropped from...hmmm 80 feet? don't remember the exact height anymore... so assuming it was 80..that's 8d6... he rolled it out. it was a high roll, end result broken weapon. I think part of the issue was selective realism. The selective realism stick was always brought out when the DM wanted to prove his point. I admit it... after a while I just stopped debating with the DM, just wasn't getting me anywhere... then when I couldn't take it anymore... I left.
NoldorForce 10-18-06, 04:33 PM	Additionally, such items are relatively light--no weapon sized for a Medium creature (ie the PCs) weighs more than 15 lbs, and most weigh less than 10 lbs. Thus your weapons take 1d6 damage per falling increment--which is much larger for light items.Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage. For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.Some two-handed weapons, weighing in at 11 to 15 lbs, have a falling increment of 50'. Greatswords, in the category of 6 to 10 lbs, have a falling increment of 60'. Longswords and daggers? That's a range increment of 70'--large enough that they wouldn't even have taken damage. To summarize--your ex-DM may or may not have been cheating, but he/she certainly wasn't using some of the rules correctly. And an adversarial DM is not the best choice of one to play under. Edit: Oh, and by RAW...objects don't seem to take damage from falling. Only creatures do.
RenX99 10-18-06, 04:45 PM	Additionally, such items are relatively light--no weapon sized for a Medium creature (ie the PCs) weighs more than 15 lbs, and most weigh less than 10 lbs. Thus your weapons take 1d6 damage per falling increment--which is much larger for light items.Some two-handed weapons, weighing in at 11 to 15 lbs, have a falling increment of 50'. Greatswords, in the category of 6 to 10 lbs, have a falling increment of 60'. Longswords and daggers? That's a range increment of 70'--large enough that they wouldn't even have taken damage. To summarize--your ex-DM may or may not have been cheating, but he/she certainly wasn't using some of the rules correctly. And an adversarial DM is not the best choice of one to play under. Edit: Oh, and by RAW...objects don't seem to take damage from falling. Only creatures do. I brought these rules up too... but about this time I get beat with the "rules lawyer" stick and give up. Funny thing is...one of the reasons he was keen on having join up... I know the rules... Also..what is RAW?
NoldorForce 10-18-06, 04:56 PM	RAW=Rules As Written Pfft. If the DM is using rules that are clearly incorrect, and you correct him...that's not rules-lawyering. By that standard, even having a player cite text from the book rather than having the DM attempt to describe it through semaphore is rules-lawyering. Arguing that objects don't take damage when they fall MIGHT be rules-lawyering, though the rules on damage taken by a falling something seem to be clear in that they speak of creatures. Arguing that objects take less damage is merely a restatement of the rules.
Elendur 10-19-06, 12:34 PM	Ultimately arguing with the DM over rules is futile. You can point out the RAW, but if he has a house rule or a different interpretation, you're stuck.
Cifer 10-19-06, 02:07 PM	Well... first thing is that anyone daring to play a frenzied berserker deserves whatever bad DMs happen to him. Secondly, from your description the DM sucked.
Archangel62 10-19-06, 03:57 PM	Well... first thing is that anyone daring to play a frenzied berserker deserves whatever bad DMs happen to him. Secondly, from your description the DM sucked. Well first thing is that seems needlessly rude and rather annoying. Secondly I'd have to agree that said DM was a bit of a jerk.
Cifer 10-19-06, 05:33 PM	Well first thing is that seems needlessly rude and rather annoying. Why? Someone playing a FB says to me in quite clear terms "I don't care what happens to my group as long as I can dish out ridiculous amounts of damage" in pretty much the same way as a caster who doesn't care whether friends are inside his AoE spell.
INeedNoSalt 10-19-06, 05:57 PM	If I felt that the role in the game was to defeat the PCs, I would just put them up against a CR 30 dragon at level 1. The DM can stack the game against the PCs all he wants, but if he really wants to play with the intention of killing you off, he will have no trouble doing so. If you're getting disarmed every round... get a locked gauntlet?
crossp 10-19-06, 06:33 PM	I personally love the disarm, sunder, grapple, trip, and other special attack rules. I think they can add alot of needed realism to combat if used well. That aside, not everything in the world should have mastered these abilities. Was the dragon at least laughing and taunting your reliance on weapons or something thematic? If the DM starts banning things like locked gauntlets, you know he's power tripping. ...and all calculations of the falling damage on that greataxe are futile since weapons with enhancement bonuses don't take damage from anything with a lesser enhancement bonus, and we can assume that the ground was dishing out magical damage. ;)
Throg 10-19-06, 11:01 PM	I personally love the disarm, sunder, grapple, trip, and other special attack rules. I think they can add alot of needed realism to combat if used well. That aside, not everything in the world should have mastered these abilities. Was the dragon at least laughing and taunting your reliance on weapons or something thematic? If the DM starts banning things like locked gauntlets, you know he's power tripping. ...and all calculations of the falling damage on that greataxe are futile since weapons with enhancement bonuses don't take damage from anything with a lesser enhancement bonus, and we can assume that the ground was dishing out magical damage. ;) I can't seem to find that rule, I'm pretty sure the no damage from a lesser enhancement bonus was a 3.0 rule. I looked high and low for it through all the 3.5 rules with anything about sundering, and the only thing mentioned was that magical bonus' increase the hardness and hitpoints. So as far as I can see, any weapon can break a magical weapon. It'll just be much much harder.
fullmetal80110 10-20-06, 02:15 AM	This happens alot, you have to realize that it is going to be a hack and slash campaign and if you want to rp alot join a different game, I don't have anything against hack and slash but you have to build your character for them so things like weapons getting taken isn't that much of a problem.
crossp 10-20-06, 02:58 AM	I can't seem to find that rule, I'm pretty sure the no damage from a lesser enhancement bonus was a 3.0 rule. I looked high and low for it through all the 3.5 rules with anything about sundering, and the only thing mentioned was that magical bonus' increase the hardness and hitpoints. So as far as I can see, any weapon can break a magical weapon. It'll just be much much harder. DMG: page 222, first paragraph "Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points." I had to use it once to prove that a petulant teammate couldn't snap my +1 glaive over his knee (unless he drank a magic fang potion).
Archangel62 10-20-06, 04:02 AM	DMG: page 222, first paragraph "Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points." I had to use it once to prove that a petulant teammate couldn't snap my +1 glaive over his knee (unless he drank a magic fang potion). Actually that got removied in the errata, now enchantment bonus matters exactly squat.
Need_A_Life 10-20-06, 05:23 AM	Sounds like my old character would have to step into that group... vow of poverty monk (nothing to sunder or disarm) with prone attack (attack with no penalty while prone). Anyway, I'd sit down with the DM and tell him that the game is supposed to be about everyone having fun and not kicking the c**p out of your fictive representations, regardless of how much joy he might derive from such pleasure. Also, next time the DM denies you the one class ability that defines your character (no one would play a Frenzied Berserker without Deathless Frenzy) tell him that your next character will be Lord Pun-Pun in the flesh if he doesn't at least consider giving it back (don't actually do it, though). I had a sorcerer once who had leadership AND epic leadership (working his way up to legendary commander [gives 10x normal followers]), who intended to rebuild an empire. My DM robbed me of that opportunity by first taking my cohort away on the thinnest excuse of it being a plot device (which would've only had any effect had I actually roledplayed an encounter with that son), despite the fact that the son was basically just a caretaker of my character's people. Then he said "A flaystorm comes along" to which I replied "well, that doesn't matter seeing as how we're underground. Protection from these storms was the entire reason for living down here," he paused and said "well this one is underground too" and proceeded to explain how it killed 26,000 followers and animated them as skeletons... at that point I explained that I'd begin recruiting followers again and he said "No, you have to wait a generation to begin getting followers again," I told him calmly but in no uncertain terms that my character would now be an NPC seeing as how he'd taken away the thing I had based my entire character upon and not even bothered to ask if I was okay with fundamental changes to the main feats of my character. If your DM likes to s***w you over, then tell him that it's either his ego trip or his game because if he can't accept that everyone needs to have fun, then he will have to accept that "his" players won't be showing up anymore.
Cifer 10-20-06, 05:30 AM	Actually that got removied in the errata, now enchantment bonus matters exactly squat. Not exactly. The sundering weapon still needs to be magical, though it is now irrelevant what relation the enhancement bonuses have. So yeah, better hope your sword doesn't fall down on magical ground...
Black Kitten 10-20-06, 07:40 AM	I think he's being unfair and that you play WoW, since D&D players generally refer to encounters rather than mobs. Yeah, talk about semi-off topic replies with no use. I confess.
Mr. VanderMeer 10-20-06, 08:12 AM	Areally good DM can make it seem like he is stacking the game against you. If in the end your characters do persevere it I'll feel even better than normal. (Although ofcourse a DM should not go as far as some of the examples above)
crossp 10-20-06, 02:16 PM	It seems like we're getting at the idea that your DM should stack the game against you. Greater challenges are more rewarding. (When I write high-level encounters for my experienced players I don't even write in ways for them to survive. I just assume they'll find something I missed) Your DM just needs to find more believable ways of challenging you. This is the same as a DM who sends nothing but undead at a party lacking a cleric or whose world is suddenly filled with nothing but flying monsters once your wizard learns the Fly spell.
Elendur 10-20-06, 07:02 PM	The DM should challenge you but also allow you to use your abilities. Always disarming melee combatants would be annoying, just like always having critters with really high SR would be annoying to casters, or crit immune stuff for rogues.