Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stimpson Shortfellow 07-26-05, 01:54 PM	ok, so my group decided to start a new campagin. We would start of at lvl 10 and we could make any type of character we wanted. Now i have never played a pious character, or a good character and decided to make a Lawful Good cleric of pelor. So after something thinking and looking thorugh many tomes of forgotten lore, i took the vow of poverty, and took the Saint template; both from book of exalted deeds. With these 2 things, i have some insane ablilites and some insane immunitys. Now after telling the party what i had made, the other 3 players purpously changed there characters just so if anything happend they could kill me without to much trouble. Now i dont mind a little party conflict, but making characters to kill mine is lowdown and underhanded if you ask me. Now i have never had a problem like this in my 4 years of gaming, so i really dont know what to do.. Anyone have any suggestions???
rbrt_Spade 07-26-05, 02:01 PM	well mabye thiers a evil pc in your party agianst you guys-ive seen this many times-mabye they just want to be = in power to your pc. sometimes ive seen players change stats to have the party work well! or your a dead cleric :) ;)
OracleYori 07-26-05, 02:03 PM	thing is, i once had a VoP saint Paladin...its very difficult to kill one, even if you are fairly well equipped dont worry about it, although, if your RP right, they would have absolutely no reason to worry about you doing anything remotely evil i dont know why all these groups dont rp that much...its all crunch and no munch...oh well a VoP Saint is pretty fun-gotta be good, but doesnt mean you cant kick some ass if challenged- PS-dont ever tell your friends what you make until in-game....stuff like that happens, and then you cant just say your character is wrapped in long cloth, and then have everyone wonder how you managed to buy such powerful magic items...that really freaked one group i played with out-the VoP Paladin-
rbrt_Spade 07-26-05, 02:03 PM	your a spellcaster-you have domains + spells on your side-remember that! mabye talk to the dm or find flaws to kill the other pcs! IM A EVIL DM ;) :cool:
SageAdvice666 07-26-05, 02:04 PM	Quit playing, jerks like that aren't worth your time.
Pryrates 07-26-05, 02:04 PM	Find out what they made and make yours even more powerful....MUWHAHAHAHA....sorry...then dont tell anyone but the DM about the switch, this way when they come after you and think they know what their dealing with youll wipe the floor with them....wow i play way to many evil characters....
DragonDeadite 07-26-05, 02:13 PM	Hhhmmm... sounds to me like everyone just needs to make new characters. Build a TEAM design together so you know what everyone has and it works together more than just being ready to kill one-another.
ShadowDragon8685 07-26-05, 02:23 PM	I think they're afraid you're going to get all holier-than-thou on them and start dictacting the party's actions, so they want to be able to dispose of you if you start trying to control them.
OracleYori 07-26-05, 02:53 PM	I think they're afraid you're going to get all holier-than-thou on them and start dictacting the party's actions, so they want to be able to dispose of you if you start trying to control them. That very well could be the problem...LG gets a bad rep for that... I have played several LG characters just to show the group that it isnt a bossy character. It could be, but isnt. RP well, and good luck-
Gurthoron 07-26-05, 03:01 PM	First off, if they are evil you wouldn't travel with them. So nix any evil characters. Second, you are gonna be the party healer I'm guessing. So they damn well better stay on your good side. If they start acting evil, not healing them is acceptable. Helps bring those chaotic stupid characters in check. How did they make characters capable of tooling a VOP Saint? I think your saves are your only weak point so are they all spellcasters? I just know a VOP Saint is insanely good defensively. Another thought: Boost your diplomacy into the stratosphere. Make them friendly and keep them that way.
celtredleg 07-26-05, 03:17 PM	Do you LIKE party on party fights??? If so, check your spell lists and be ready for it. If not, get with the DM and voice your complaint. If he says ints going to be that kind of game, and thats not your thing, walk. Quickly. I dont find that sort of game fun. Many do. Fine for them, they can do it to thier hearts content, just not with me.
Ni! 07-26-05, 03:37 PM	What the hell? Why do they need to kill a VOP SAINT?! What is he going to do? Ask them to be nice to people? Do they plan on going evil or something? First off, I would munchkin my character to hell, if they are going to be jerks and make characters JUST TO KILL ME, I'm going to do the same. Second, talk to your DM. I mean, if I was DMing and I saw my group PLANNING TO KILL EACH OTHER, I would take some action. Your DM may be in to party fights, in which case, ignore my whole post. Realy though... unless they go horribly and completely evil (you can always do that whole "Never beyond forgiveness thing") they have nothing to fear.
Arkidisey 07-26-05, 03:45 PM	They havent done anything YET, and it looks like they are being afraid of your power! That and like already said they dont want you going all " Dont do that. its not the right thing to do! :weep: ) on them, so they changed their characters to be as strong as yours and so they could take you out if they needed, which would likley turn them one of the two: Nuetral Evil or more likley: Chaotic Evil, which would make their chars hate everything, kill lots of ppl, and get them killed... unless they play it RIGHT and be smart ;) !! gonw of subject. They are being carful, so dont start bossing them around (not that i'm implying that you will) and let them do the wrong things, its their fualt and it will get them in trouble with the law. But dont let them become EVIL, or dont let them mess with anything other than the law because chances are; that thing will try to kill you all, not just them.what i'm saying is, let them be who they intend to be, but dont let them step over that invisible line of yours.
Keg of Ale 07-27-05, 04:09 PM	I think the best thing to do at this point is to make another character. That's what I'd do at least - playing amid characters that were specifically optimized to take out mine must be uncomfortable. Ask the DM if its too late to change your PC concept, and play something else. If you want to further punish the other players' "underhanded metagaming", ask the DM if you can make the character switch a secret from the other players, until the first session begins.
Gurthoron 07-27-05, 04:30 PM	Actually, I like the thought of you secretly switching your character. Them creating their characters specifically to kill you is a very dumb thing to do, and deserves to be punished. By changing your character you will throw them off and make them less effective overall, which is what the little punks deserve. It could be quite amusing.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 07-27-05, 04:38 PM	ok, so my group decided to start a new campagin. We would start of at lvl 10 and we could make any type of character we wanted. Now i have never played a pious character, or a good character and decided to make a Lawful Good cleric of pelor. So after something thinking and looking thorugh many tomes of forgotten lore, i took the vow of poverty, and took the Saint template; both from book of exalted deeds. With these 2 things, i have some insane ablilites and some insane immunitys. Now after telling the party what i had made, the other 3 players purpously changed there characters just so if anything happend they could kill me without to much trouble. Now i dont mind a little party conflict, but making characters to kill mine is lowdown and underhanded if you ask me. Now i have never had a problem like this in my 4 years of gaming, so i really dont know what to do.. Anyone have any suggestions??? I think they're afraid you're going to get all holier-than-thou on them and start dictacting the party's actions, so they want to be able to dispose of you if you start trying to control them. This is what I suspect. From what I gather of your post, your group's mentality (you included) seems to be: Thou shalt be the group's powerhouse. wich is neither good nor bad (hey, it's fun to create a pure, unadulterated killing machine sometimes). Now, someone in the group playing a paladin can be bothersome to the other players. Why? The paladin's code effectively hamper the whole group, as the paladin won't let anybody do anything that is against his code. So the whole group has no other choice than following the paladin's vows (or it's party-kill time!!). That problem is increased a thousand fold if you're playing a VoPed PC instead. The group ends up being forced to be an exalted group because a single player (as in one (1)) wants to. Now, a VoPed PC is trememdously powerfull, so he's gonna be hard to put down if necessary. Add the saint template, and it's getting really ugly. Way I see it, your players are simply practicing preventive self-defense. Another thing to consider; maybe they're not out to get you. Maybe they guessed your PC's powerlevel and wanted to be at the same power level themselves. NOBODY like playing an underpowered PC in a team where there is a superbeing. They just don't want to be your secrwetaries, taking notes as you destroy their foes. As I DM, I use a special rule with paladins and exalted PCs. They have to have the group's permission to play one, as their concept WILL force the group to behave in a certain way.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-27-05, 04:40 PM	Eh, I don't approve of PvP, but using the BoED, you get what you ask for.
DarthMarasmus 07-27-05, 05:11 PM	Sounds like you're dealing with a group like the one I used to play with (though ours generally only involved the thieves trying to steal from the rest of the party). The main problem we always had with our group was that nobody wanted to listen to anyone else's ideas, they all wanted to get into ******* contests over who was the best {insert class, skill, etc., etc. here}, in short, we couldn't work together because nobody trusted anyone else, but nobody trusted anyone because we couldn't trust anyone other than ourselves. My advice is pretty similar to the advice that everyone else has already given you: 1) Talk to the DM, he may be encouraging this kind of crap, if he is, then shame on him. If he's not, then he should be willing to help resolve the situation. At least in my area, it's difficult to get a good group together, so if something like this were going to tear up a group that I was DMing for, I'd try my damnedest to put a stop to it. All that can come from that is hurt feelings and strained friendships. It's not worth it. 2) Talk to the other players. It could be that they know something you don't (perhaps you're going to be fighting each other in an arena or something, so that may be why they're being asses). On the other hand, they may just be a bunch of asses and you didn't notice because you were playing the way they wanted you to before now. 3) If they and/or the DM aren't willing to amend this, bow out and find another group (hopefully easier in your area than it is in mine).
DarthMarasmus 07-27-05, 05:26 PM	Now, someone in the group playing a paladin can be bothersome to the other players. Why? The paladin's code effectively hamper the whole group, as the paladin won't let anybody do anything that is against his code. So the whole group has no other choice than following the paladin's vows (or it's party-kill time!!). That problem is increased a thousand fold if you're playing a VoPed PC instead. The group ends up being forced to be an exalted group because a single player (as in one (1)) wants to. Now, a VoPed PC is trememdously powerfull, so he's gonna be hard to put down if necessary. Add the saint template, and it's getting really ugly. It's only bothersome to the unimaginative sorts I've RPed with in the past. You don't have to follow the paladin's code at all, you just have to find ways around it. If I play in a group with a paladin, I want to play a thief (rogue, whatever). You may say, "But that's the class that will have his style cramped the most!" I say, get creative, what the paladin doesn't know, won't get him in trouble... Yes, your role in the party does change a bit (scouting ahead more, openly backstabbing opponents less (funny oxymoron there, "openly backstabbing," hehe)). Of course, when you're away from the paladin, you can get into all sorts of trouble (just make sure you don't need him as the rescue party, or you'll have a LOT of explaining to do). As for other classes: wizards and sorcerers, reserve the spells with the "Evil" descriptor for those times when the paladin's away/not looking/unconscious/dead/on the john; rangers, well, just do your job and the paladin shouldn't give you a problem; bards, just don't get caught knocking up all the ladies in town; clerics, you're in like Flynn; barbarians, just pull your weight, take a bath once in a while, don't kill innocents, and you should be fine; druids, just nod and agree with the paladin and you should be fine. In other words, pass the DM plenty of notes, do sneaky/evil things out of the paladin's sight, and all should be cool. As for the Vow of Poverty, if he doesn't KNOW that you're filthy rich, then you're in keeping with his vow.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 07-28-05, 01:01 AM	It's only bothersome to the unimaginative sorts I've RPed with in the past. You don't have to follow the paladin's code at all, you just have to find ways around it. Most paladins I've seen take it as their duty to make the rest of the group behave according to their code. Thou shall not knowingly let other do "bad" (their (usualy fanatical) description of it) things, or something like it. Also, you can't choose an "evil" option. Or rather, you can, but doing so is gonna destroy a fellow player's PC. Either he let you do it and lose his paladinship, or he try to stop you and ends up taking on the entire party (wich means he's dead unless he's way too powerfull). Or maybe exile... This has the tendancy of ******* a paladin's player. [QUOTE]In other words, pass the DM plenty of notes, do sneaky/evil things out of the paladin's sight, and all should be cool. Yeah, but not all game/DM deal well with solo-quests and notes. As for the Vow of Poverty, if he doesn't KNOW that you're filthy rich, then you're in keeping with his vow. No,no,no, that's not what I meant. In order to get VoP, you have to take Sacred Vow and be Exalted. That means you have to follow the very rigid and unforgiving exalted code. You are now gooder than the goody-two-shoeiest paladin.
DarthMarasmus 07-28-05, 06:27 PM	Okay, well, I don't have the BoED, so the details on its stuff are fuzzy at best for me. As for the paladin thing, it's like I said, if he doesn't KNOW what's going on (several useful spells such as Undetectable Alignment, Protection from Scrying, and such as that help a lot), most half-way decent DMs wouldn't penalize them for the actions of other party members of which the paladin in question is ignorant. At no point does a paladin gain the Omniscience special ability. Also, I was basically assuming (for the sake of party chemistry, which is of utmost importance, in my opinion) that the majority of the party would have some sort of good alignment (CG ranger being rather popular). Even though he's good, he'll utilize tactics that the average paladin would find distasteful and cowardly (sneaking, that sort of thing). The thief would find even less favor in the paladin's eyes, whether he's NG, CG, or one of the Neutral alignments. But, like I said, if the paladin doesn't know that he's traveling with evil characters, why should the DM hold him responsible? Some players like to keep alignment and even class secret from the other players as long as possible. What if you've been traveling with someone for 5 years as a friend and ally and you suddenly find out that he's a serial killer?
Purkake 07-28-05, 07:42 PM	I would think that a cleric without his holy symbol(read the FAQ) is one poor cleric, saint or not :)
AramilWindwalker 07-28-05, 07:58 PM	he could get a tattoo of a holy symbol and get it blessed(either yourself or someone else) and use it. Just get it on your arm or somewhere you can show it when needed. At least a DM who isn't a total meanie would allow something like this.
AramilWindwalker 07-28-05, 08:00 PM	just get a blessed tattoo of a holy symbol(on your arm or something)
Purkake 07-28-05, 08:07 PM	I agree that it is not nice, but there is nothing official about getting a holy symbol tattoo, so house rule galore :D Try walking around with a naked hand everywhere;)
Red_Ninja 07-29-05, 02:27 PM	If the group is concerned about you "changing" the party behavior, its up to you to make that impact a small a possible. I play (for once) a paladin in a low level greyhawk game. In that game I make sure I don't cause too many problems with my behavior and my recommendations on the other players behaviors... (By the way I travel with an evil necromancer...but I'll get to that in a few lines...) Here's some examples of what I do to help even things out... -Yes I announce my intent to pass (through the crypt/ into the evil keep/etc) to give my foes a chance to flee/surrender/ prepare for a fair fight -Yes I give senient foes a chance to surrender (but not undead, or mindless creatures like constructs or oozes) -No I do not loot the dead- I take my share of treasure chests, reward money, etc.. but no corpses or tombs... I frequently guard the rear or some other remote area when the other players loot... -I do insist on the fair treatment of prisoners -I free offer help to all of the other PCs (evil or not) whether it be healing, money, or whatever, with no thought of compensation or reward (I don''t just give them all my possession- I am reasonable about it) When it comes down to other PCs doing thing you may not (or definitely don't) approve of- It all comes down to (sorry) A certain point of view! Here's how I can travel with a evil Necromancer... He's at least as powerful as I am, and as long as I travel with him, there I hope that he can be redeemed. I regularly off help and guidance trying to show him that evil is not the answer. IF we were to separate or fight- consider... A) he might win, and become even more powerful! B) He would turn away from the sliver of hope that he might work for good! C) There would be no one to make sure he doesn't do anything REALLY evil SO- as long as I travel with him, I can make sure he doesn't perform any really heinous acts...keep fighting for his soul, turning evil against itself....and I can keep him in check- without me he'd turn into our next villian! So I have no choice but to travel with and put up with him. Our characters are in fact, good friends, we have numerous discussions about the goals of the party, what he wants and what I want. No problems. I let him take control of undead we encounter, so long as once the encounter is over, we destroy the abomination. I make it clear that I do not approve of raise the dead (especially sentients!). He does his best to abide by my wishes, but does not always. Still I respect him, and when he does something that I don't approve of- I DON'T ATTACK HIM!!!!!! I tell him that its unacceptable, and usually ask him to make reparations. For example, if we were attacked by orcs, and if he animated fallen orcs as zombie and had them attack our foes-- I'd wouldn't be happy, but as long as he dispelled/destroyed the zombies after the battle I would not even say anything other than pray for the souls of the orcs... So I compromise... and he compromises, by not creating a horde of undead (like very necromancer wants to) and not raising humans/elves/dwarves/etc as undead (even temporarily) I don't think this scenario would work with an EXALTED paladin, but you get the idea- Compromise! Role Play!
Encard 07-30-05, 10:27 PM	I think the problem is two-fold, as some have stated... One part is that the group may just not want a fanatically good character travelling with them. If this is the case, you may be able to deal with the problem by giving the other players and explanation of how you plan on playing the character (which, of ourse, would have to not include crazy fanaticism). The second part is that your character looks cheesy. Now, VoP is actually not too great for a cleric; if anything, it'll lower you power. However, it looks very powerful. Saint really is an overpowered template, though, even for casters. The other players may be irritated at seeing that they believe to be a munchkin character. If this is the case, you need to either show them how the character is balanced or make a new character.