Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adamaro23 08-27-07, 08:27 AM	I know you have to have at least a 3 INT to be a PC, but is there anything stopping me from playing a character with 2 CHA? My DM is letting us use 90 point buy (1 for 1), you can put a maximum of 18 points in, and minimum of 4 (not including racial mods). And my race gives me -2 CHA. Personally I think it will be very fun (for me at least :P ) to play a character with 2 CHA. Also, does anyone have any roleplaying tips on playing a 2 CHA character? One last thing, I need some relatively quick replies, i'm playing this character in 9 hours :) .
Ryusage 08-27-07, 08:36 AM	nothing in the rules exists to stop you... but why would you WANT to?:D
Matthew77 08-27-07, 09:25 AM	Leaving aside the mechanical penalties, fluff-wise, any stat under 3 makes a character unplayable. 2 Charisma would leave you nearly paralyzed with self-doubt and indecision. You would be so weak willed and complacent that you would agree with any suggestion made to you, and wouldn't have the initiative to do anything you weren't ordered to do. There might be some creatures for whom a 2 charisma represents a physically replusive form or an aura of unease, but for a human or humanoid, it would represent a crippling lack of confidence.
Adamaro23 08-27-07, 09:33 AM	Leaving aside the mechanical penalties, fluff-wise, any stat under 3 makes a character unplayable. You would be so weak willed and complacent that you would agree with any suggestion made to you, and wouldn't have the initiative to do anything you weren't ordered to do. Isn't this wisdom? Intelligence is being able to come up with plans and Wisdom determines whether or not you are able to figure out how to actually complete the task. Either way it's no problem, i'll change it to 3, but i need ideas roleplaying 3 Cha.
Puggins 08-27-07, 10:05 AM	Isn't this wisdom? Intelligence is being able to come up with plans and Wisdom determines whether or not you are able to figure out how to actually complete the task. Either way it's no problem, i'll change it to 3, but i need ideas roleplaying 3 Cha. I really can't give you any roleplaying tips on cha 3, to be honest, but I think it's an unplayable character in many, many ways. The first time you get hit with a CHA drain (which isn't as uncommon as you'd think), you'll keel over and die. That, and you have a personality one step removed from a fungus. Literally.
buzzsawl 08-27-07, 10:33 AM	Think of the most boring person ever... Not annoyingly boring, but completely bland and unremarkable. If their personality was a flavor, it would be cardboard. Essentially just make them so that no one ever would listen to anything they say. Or be impressed. Or annoyed. Or interested.
Khadmus 08-27-07, 10:39 AM	How about making them completely devoted to a single person? As if he doesn't have enough personality, so he must feed off the other party member's charisma. buzzsawl has a good idea.
JellyPooga 08-27-07, 10:48 AM	Whilst it is within the rules to play a character with a 2 Charisma, I would recommend against it (or even as low as 4 or 5). 1) As noted above, Charisma drain is surprisingly common (especially amongst the Undead). Hit 0 Cha and you are practically dead. 2) With a 2 Charisma, you simply do not understand social concepts. Conversation and small talk is beyond you because you do not understand its relevance. Whilst you may understand the concept of trade, you cannot relate it to yourself; thus, if you were in town and saw an item for sale that you wanted, you would just take it (or attempt to) without even thinking about paying for it. You will probaly bathe irregularly, if at all, though you may well clean yourself in the way of picking nits/dirt/whatever out of your overgrown beard and hair. You may well not wear tailored clothing, wearing only animal skins that you yourself have cured (or not, as the case may be). You have no sense of community and have no conception that others have rights; you take what you need or want, regardless of others' needs or desires. You go beyond abrasive, you will be openly hostile to those of the same gender in an attempt to cow or subdue them to lesser members of the "pack"/"family"/whatever and you will see members of the opposite gender as little more than a means to procreation. In short, you will be little more than an animal, with all that that entails. Cities will scare you, aggression (even if it's mistaken) will be met with aggression and the niceties of life, such as relaxation, games, jokes and fine products (wine, cloth, etc.) simply pass you by. Life for you is little more than a struggel to survive. As such, if you are playing such a low Charisma, your Intelligence and possibly even your Wisdom should reflect it too. Also, if this character is part of a party, he may well require a "handler" or at least an interpreter (of sorts) to control and explain his actions. 3) Having such a low Charisma in a point-buy game is likely just an attempt to min-max. This is not a good thing. My apologies if this is not the case and you genuinely want to try roleplaying such a low Cha character, but if you are doing it just to increase your Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis, then don't...a 2 Charisma is just as (if not more than) crippling as having a 2 in Dexterity or Strength.
Matthew77 08-27-07, 11:11 AM	Isn't this wisdom? Intelligence is being able to come up with plans and Wisdom determines whether or not you are able to figure out how to actually complete the task. Fluff-wise, all the mental stats are kind of inter-related. The shorthand I usually use for the three mental stats are: Int = ability to reason, abstract thought and sheer volume of knowledge. Wis = intuition, spatial awareness, instinct and empathy. Cha = self-confidence, persuasiveness, force of will. But of course, a high or low stat can mean different things to different characters. You can have high Cha to represent a sly, tricky manipulator, or it can represent an honest, good-natured inspiring leader. I really like JellyPooga's post on low Cha. I hadn't really thought of equating Cha to socialization. If you want to play a low Cha character, that would be a great way to go. Instead of being a nasty jerk, play someone that just has no concept of social living. It would still be highly disruptive to an adventuring party, though :)
Tedronai 08-27-07, 04:12 PM	Most of JellyPooga's suggestions will not represent a character of even average intelligence/wisdom, as the understanding of any concepts, social or otherwise would be governed by Int, not Cha. Cha would be used for the implementation of those concepts, but not for their understanding; interpreting other creatures' meaning and intent would be governed by wis. You have difficulty communicating your ideas and feelings to other creatures, but you will still be able to read their emotions and interpret their ideas just fine. If you dump all the mental stats rather severely, that description would be much more accurate, otherwise you'd have to pick through it much more frugally.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-27-07, 04:19 PM	Eeyore from the old Winnie the Pooh cartoons had Cha in the 2-3 range didn't he?
Horseshoe_Hermit 08-27-07, 04:48 PM	Charisma measures the degree to which you can tell the difference between yourself, and things that are no yourself. Something with 0 or no charisma is not a creature, it is an object. As you approach low charisma, you are becoming like a CARDBOARD BOX, in the sense that you have no recognition of who you are. Persuasiveness, force of personality, and even perceived attractiveness, arise from a person's apparent self-confidence. That confidence can only develop as far as the person has tempered his faculty of self-awareness. The charismatic person sees who he is, who he is not, and can easily see himself the way others do. That's why charisma assists you in making bluffs and disguising yourself - you can change what you appear to be, because you know what it is like to be the other person looking at you, or because you can simply imagine yourself being someone else (or believing your own bluff), and then all you have to do is act "naturally" within the self-deception. Intelligence is memory, reasoning, abstract thinking (and understanding of concepts thereof), and problem solving (of well-defined problems). Wisdom I only know what it is because I know what it isn't. If you have no wisdom, you recede into a catatonic state filled with hallucinations and horrible dreams. As a person approaches 0 wisdom, his ability to be sensitive to the environment around him, and act "sensibly" (though not necessarily with intelligence), diminishes. A person with low wisdom finds it difficult to notice things that aren't plainly presented, and as such, takes on a literal view of the world. This literal view, being narrow in a sense, makes the person's behaviour apparently "rude" or "rash" - the former, for his apparent ignorance with regard to others, and the latter, his apparent disregard, for the danger or consequences. It is important that the rashness is understood in the sense of naivety, even though what I'm saying is the low-wisdom person might be perceived as arrogant. Also, the disregard is separate from a lack of intelligence. A person with intelligence can try to reason a successful course of action, but planning is only as good as the data brought to the table. Plus, someone lacking in wisdom is prone to fail to apply simple rules of thumb or basic survival skills. Someone with high intelligence, but low wisdom, has to use the slower process of recall and reasoning to do the same thing, and so these are the kinds of errors he makes. Wisdom is intuition in this sense: Intellect thinks. Wisdom just knows.
Neutronium_Dragon 08-28-07, 01:51 AM	Someone with a Charisma of 2 may be a budding genius (Intelligence), may have a deep understanding of how everyone else thinks (Wisdom), or be normal in both. He may dress and groom himself to match the finest standards of the world... ... the problem is that he has about as much personal presence as if the party had brought a mannequin along instead of a human. People won't even be bored with him; they just flat-out won't even notice him on a social level.
Tolly7249 08-28-07, 02:04 AM	Really, some of this stuff is intriguing. If I were to go completely insane and try playing a character with a low CHA, we're looking at Arnold Judas Rimmer with PMS. Edwin Oddesseiron with a hangover. The most obnoxious, rude, overbearing piece of :censored: to ever walk the face of the planet. (One of the official Red Dwarf books described Rimmer as having the toughness of a rusty nail and less than a fraction of the charisma.)
ArcTan 08-28-07, 02:23 AM	Isn't this wisdom? Intelligence is being able to come up with plans and Wisdom determines whether or not you are able to figure out how to actually complete the task. And Charisma is actually having the desire to *do* the task. Either way it's no problem, i'll change it to 3, but i need ideas roleplaying 3 Cha. Low Cha means having very little drive, very little sense of self, very little power of personality. You know. Like the character Ben Stein plays in every movie he's in.
ArcTan 08-28-07, 02:27 AM	Really, some of this stuff is intriguing. If I were to go completely insane and try playing a character with a low CHA, we're looking at Arnold Judas Rimmer with PMS. Edwin Oddesseiron with a hangover. The most obnoxious, rude, overbearing piece of :censored: to ever walk the face of the planet. (One of the official Red Dwarf books described Rimmer as having the toughness of a rusty nail and less than a fraction of the charisma.) The important thing is that Rimmer is annoying, but *pathetically* annoying. You can't even really be mad at him. He annoys you enough for you to almost hate him and then you realize how pathetic he is and you almost feel sorry for him until he annoys you some more and you almost hate him again and you're just stuck in this feedback loop of not knowing how to feel about him, but knowing that none of your emotions for him involve respect. That's the difference between a low-Cha jerk and a high-Cha jerk. High Cha doesn't mean you're not a jerk. (Mind Flayers, after all, are known for their high Cha.) It just means that when you're a jerk, it *works*. Lister can be as much or more of a self-centered ass as Rimmer, but when he does it you *like* him -- or even when you get ticked off at him, you *enjoy* getting ticked off at him and are charmed or fascinated as much as you are repelled. (It's why Kochanski ends up with him, after all.)
Tolly7249 08-28-07, 02:33 AM	The important thing is that Rimmer is annoying, but *pathetically* annoying. You can't even really be mad at him. He annoys you enough for you to almost hate him and then you realize how pathetic he is and you almost feel sorry for him until he annoys you some more and you almost hate him again and you're just stuck in this feedback loop of not knowing how to feel about him, but knowing that none of your emotions for him involve respect. That's the difference between a low-Cha jerk and a high-Cha jerk. High Cha doesn't mean you're not a jerk. (Mind Flayers, after all, are known for their high Cha.) It just means that when you're a jerk, it *works*. Lister can be as much or more of a self-centered ass as Rimmer, but when he does it you *like* him -- or even when you get ticked off at him, you *enjoy* getting ticked off at him and are charmed or fascinated as much as you are repelled. (It's why Kochanski ends up with him, after all.) I never thought of it like that. Huh... (Actually, I've always had a soft spot for Rimmer. Lister, on the other hand, irritates me... Weird.)
Adamaro23 08-28-07, 06:47 AM	Well, it's over. After talking with the other players 3 of us (out of 6) decided to play dwarves... I'm starting a new thread about that here on What's A Player To Do? Please read that :D .
Papa_duval 08-28-07, 07:37 AM	Surely a Cha of 2 or 3 would be autistic (severely so) You might have an intelligence of 18, but you'd be unable to relate well to the world, and so would withdraw within yourself - you would be extremely autistic. Charisma deals with social interaction and communication. A complete inability to interact/communicate would indicate a quite strong instance of autism, though if you missed out some of the other symptoms (repetative behaviour being the 3rd main symptom of autism) then you might be playing someone with simple Autism spectrum disorders (ASD) Either way, Cha 2 or 3 doesn't make for a viable character (think Dustin Hoffman in rain man, intelligent, insightful, physically capable but unable to interact with society)
wolf_man007 08-28-07, 08:16 AM	Or you could just sit there and snarl at people. Kinda like a boring, cantankerous, man-without-a-face.
Ayra 08-28-07, 09:35 AM	I think it's indeed the social drive someone has. He may come up with the brightest ideas, may come up with the best ways to do them.. but he just can't be bothered. "Me? Saving a town? Well maybe another hero will come to the rescue... Maybe I should inquire for help then. Actually, if there's someone who even wants to help he'll come by himself. I'll just go do something else. It's not like anyone probably wants me here anymore. If I'd help, I'd probably screw it up and make matters worse. Yeah, that's right. I suck at being a hero." No self-confidence, no drive, and most likely no feelings towards people other than himself. Oh sure he understands that others may die, but he probably doesn't grasp the concept that if someone dies, it's actually not a good thing. He understands the sociology around it, but it doesn't affect him. Charisma can really be a lot of things. In D&D I think one should generally look at the skills that the stat represents and go from that point. You could say that a character with low CHA is generally not good at expressing himself, convincing others (or even talking to them) or tricking someone/something (i.e. use magic device). Again for the latter: he might understand how to trick someone and even might now the best way to do it, but when it comes to the action he's just not up to it. When the lie leaves his mouth, it just too obviously sounds like a lie. Other aspects charisma may handle, but not necessarily has to are your looks, your attitude (very bland), etc. I do think that every character with low charisma will have the lack of convincing someone in common. You better not be the one selling the party's loot.
buzzsawl 08-28-07, 12:09 PM	Eeyore from the old Winnie the Pooh cartoons had Cha in the 2-3 range didn't he? I would say no. People felt sorry for him...which in a sense is a sort of charisma. That is, I'd define charisma as the ability to affect others through wis, int, manipulation, inspiring leadership, etc. Eeyore was either endearing or annoying (depending on who you talk to) and as such I'd say he had an effect on those around him. Not to say he had a stellar Cha, but I'd put him more in the 9-10 range...average, or just below. On a side note: I think it's probably going to be hard to find a fictional character to represent low Cha...I mean any recognizable characters will come from well-known books with at least decently written characters. Low Cha characters should feel one dimensional and 'lifeless.'
Dragao_das_Serras 08-28-07, 12:45 PM	I really can't give you any roleplaying tips on cha 3, to be honest, but I think it's an unplayable character in many, many ways. The first time you get hit with a CHA drain (which isn't as uncommon as you'd think), you'll keel over and die. That, and you have a personality one step removed from a fungus. Literally. CHA dropping to 0 would not kill you. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, comalike stupor, helpless (DMG 290). Of course, helpless as you are, you're as good as dead when the next attack comes. Just saying. To the OP: good luck with whatever you decide. And have fun with the other 5 ability scores at 17 (average).
supersod 08-29-07, 06:42 PM	wow, this is me in most games, im a horrible person!
AvalancheRider 08-30-07, 02:24 AM	I have a real-life friend who I would say is very low charisma. Most of the conversations I have with him are led entirely by me. He has almost no self-confidence and stutters quite a bit. He has terrible table manners, constantly chewing with his mouth open and sucking bits of food off of his fingers with a loud slurping noise. Almost every IM conversation I've ever had with him went like this: Him: "hey whats up?" Me: "Nothing really, just playing some Civ." Him: "thats cool" ... Him: "so whats new?" Wash, rinse, repeat. He's a nice person and reasonably knowledgeable in certain areas, but he's never going to be a successful politician, that's for sure. Basically, just focus on being boring and doing things that make people uncomfortable, like repeatedly asking them similar-but-not-identical questions or coughing on them.
Eminon 08-31-07, 01:31 AM	There are plenty of different ways to play extremely low Cha characters. Ben Stien was already offered as an example. I like to think of Marvin the robot from the Hitchiker's Guide to The Galaxy books. So depressing, when he linked himself to a spaceships AI, it commited suicide. Incredibly brilliant, almost endless useful, but you just can't stand to have him around. Also pointed out was the completely non-descript character. People don't even notice you exist until you force direct interaction on them(ie talk to them stand directly in their way, ect) and even then if they can manage to continue on without noticing you, they probably will. You could also try playing a character that just is endlessly annoying. "Borrowing" things from party members without asking, refusing to part with an item even if a part members life is at stake, waltzing past the thief checking for traps cause "it's a waste of time", picking fights with NPC's over minor slights, going left without warning while the rest of the party goes right, etc. Generalized anti-social behavior. As with most roleplaying decisions, your choices are about as endless as your imagination.
wizarddog 08-31-07, 01:39 AM	While I agree some of the personality types that were described would represent low charisma individuals I have to agree that a severely low 3 or 2 CH would fall into the Autism Spectrum Disorder range. A withdrawal from the outside world socially. :embarrass
Man in the Funny Hat 08-31-07, 05:56 PM	Personally I think it will be very fun (for me at least :P ) to play a character with 2 CHA.That right there is the key phrase. Just what kind of character do you intend to play? As you say, it might be fun for you but you really don't have the right to annoy the hell out of the rest of the table in the process as you get your jollies. Be VERY careful how you run such a character. EVERYONE needs to be on board, not just, "Well, the rules don't FORBID it."
HavenDan 08-31-07, 10:47 PM	I can give some tips on how someone can play a charisma 4 character. In my campagin, there is a dwarf cleric with a charisma of 4, he relates anything and everything to his patron diety Golendium (healer of the earth). No one actully takes him seariously and the average person laughs at him whenever he shouts at their sinful acts, calling them heathens, hethonists and other things. However, the half orc barbarian with an intellegence of 6 actully takes him seariously and takes him incessent religious preaching the completly wrong way, becoming an Eye of Gruumsh. Basically a low charisma means they don't fit into society at all.
Ace_of_time 09-01-07, 04:40 PM	I have read most of these and don't think this has been said but Cha is more how other see and react to you more then anything else. Low Cha could lead the party in to more unfriendly encounters with NPCs and they could find themselves with no help at times. Although zero cha is not death, only Zero con kills, it could disable your PC in one round in combat. That would not be fun.
Fiery_Overlord 09-02-07, 12:04 PM	If I were your DM I'd male sure there was at least a couple Charisma Drain undead in the first adventure, just to remove your character from game and make you sit out the session. (Actually I'd rule no in the first play and then question whether I even wanted you in the gaming group if you were serious about asking) Of course the reason I would do that is if you were my player I'd realize you are min maxxing or just trying to push button by playing a horrible character that would hinder the party more then help it. I have little tolerance for problem player who design characters just to cause trouble and agrivate people, which is all a Chr 2 character could be capable of. Charisma is need for social interaction including how you Rolepay with the other PC. Using your own Social skills as a subtisute is just bad RP and Min maxxing. An int 3 character would be better off than you, in Wisdom 3 character would be better off than you, at least people would be able to like them enough to help them. You are socially crippled to the point as a DM I'd insist you not play it as the other PC would have to RP poorly to tolerate you. Just so you know I have a guy who every game requests the right to play an awakened dog, (regardless of setting) This in my opinion is far worse than that.
setekh 09-02-07, 01:04 PM	While I agree some of the personality types that were described would represent low charisma individuals I have to agree that a severely low 3 or 2 CH would fall into the Autism Spectrum Disorder range. A withdrawal from the outside world socially. :embarrass You may say it all you want, but everything I know of Autism (Having been diagnosed with it, I should note too) would say it's more a low Wis thing. Of course, A stellar Charisma probably isn't likely either, but plenty of us are forceful with our will.
otakutaylor 09-03-07, 03:05 AM	I get a kick out of thinking about how people would react with a 2 Cha. Couple of relative examples (if i'm not mistaken) You cannot determine the difference between a tree and a shrub. Just plant and not plant. You cannot determine the difference between an elf and an orc. Just like me and not like me. you cannot determine the difference between a rock and a hard place. Just heavy and not heavy. You cannot determine the difference between life and death. Just sleeping and never getting up again. You cannot determine the difference between left and right. Just here and there. You cannot determine the difference between visible and invisible. Just present and not present. You can determine the difference between obviously going to kill you and not going to kill you, provided you have an intellegence high enough to know how spells work and which direction swords are swung in. Though you won't have idea how to convince them otherwise, much less that it's possible. You can determine if a person is misleading you, provided you have the wisdom to understand sarcasm and lying. Though you'll be hard pressed not to immediatly call them out on it if they are lying or act in some kind of guile manner. You can determine what you think is pretty and whom you'd like to be with (marriage), provided you have an intelegence high enough to realize that what you love is actually capable of loving you back and a wisdom high enough to understand how she feels about you. Though you won't have the Charisma to understand what you're supposed to do differently in order to win her over. Just a couple funny thoughts, Debate any of them as you wish, they were just funny to say.
teemuu 09-03-07, 03:47 AM	Someone was mentioning min maxing earlier. I wanted to add how could someone not min max in the above scenario. The gm is allowing a 90 point buy (1 for 1) . Thats like straight 15s in all stats or 4 18s and 2 9s . The poster just wanted a 18 18 18 18 14 and a 4 ( before modifiers ) vs lets say 18 18 18 18 10 8 . I don't think there is a way not to min max in this situation.
SithGolem 09-03-07, 10:47 PM	Okay, this is how I view a CHA 2 character (I have not read the rest of thread, BTW): A CHA 4-5 would be a wreck. He would be fine to stay at home reading books. He would not know how people view him. He would stutter constantly, sometimes taking almost a minute for a full sentence. He would get on your nerves because he might keep trying to be your friend, but he can't pick up any of the sublte hints you drop about you not wanting to talk to him at all. A CHA 2-3 would be even worse, as in never talking, having no self confidence, and be overall annoying. Basically, you shouldn't play anything less than a 6. (I know a guy with 4-5 charisma... Poor guy, but he does get on my nerves.)
Vaelan 09-03-07, 11:43 PM	I think a distinction needs to be made. Low Charisma may lead to certain types of behavior, but it does not directly and solely cause them. Low Charisma means you're likely to **** people off when you're trying to make them your friend. It means you're less likely to be able to lie believably. It means you can't make people do what you want by scaring them. It means you can't make magic items trigger themselves just because you're awesome. It doesn't mean that you are socially withdrawn. That would be a result of the conditioning that would go along with constant failure. It does not mean that you stutter. That, too, would be a result of one's experiences.
Radijs 09-04-07, 04:41 AM	In another thread a poster made a reply that I think gives a good image of such a dysmally low charisma. Link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13659356&postcount=10) Its going to be very debilitating for you to play something like that.
Nytmare 09-05-07, 10:46 AM	For future budding DMs who read this thread, you may want to try to avoid point buy systems that allow your players the freedom to create a 20/18/18/16/16/2 character. Either that or just let them put in any numbers that they want. I'd rather play in a game where everybody was a god rather than a game where everybody was Rain Man pretending to be a god. Thank you.
BW0222 09-05-07, 12:19 PM	Folk, The other thing to consider is if one can realistically roleplay such characters in a way which is fun for the entire group. If you are boring, obnoxious, rude, disgusting, etc. (or stupid, insane, too impulsive to wait for the rogue to check for traps, too weak to open a door, etc., etc.) that might seem like fun for the first hour, but after several sessions it will likely extra extremely tiring for the rest of the group. If you are so useless or a handy-cap in social situations, then the party will either have to suffer, or they'll want to exclude you from large portions of the campaign.
Cincinnati 09-07-07, 11:45 AM	For future budding DMs who read this thread, you may want to try to avoid point buy systems that allow your players the freedom to create a 20/18/18/16/16/2 character. Either that or just let them put in any numbers that they want. I'd rather play in a game where everybody was a god rather than a game where everybody was Rain Man pretending to be a god. Thank you. I agree. 90 point buy is pretty insane. OP, I don't know why you'd even want to have a dump stat under those rules. Just play something like 6 15's and gogogogogogo!