Is There Something Wrong With a DM When............. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is There Something Wrong With a DM When............. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
X0_Lt_0X
08-22-07, 12:44 AM Two Lv14 (both Duel classing) can one-shot a Black Dragon witch is so powerful that we don't qualify for EXP and can do
300+ DMG at Lv16
weasel05
08-22-07, 01:15 AM It depends what did you do

Any Save or die which you overcome the Spell Res and the dragon rolls a one on its save makes it posible

so we might need more details
StevenO
08-22-07, 01:57 PM By "dual-classing" to you mean gesault (or whatever it is that allows you to combine to classes each level)? If that is true remember that those character's power is significantly above what is normally expected from a character at that level. I also question what you mean by "do not qualify for XP" as even a Great Wyrm Black Dragon is only CR 22 which is NOT past the +8 needed to call the encounter "practically impossible." Using an encounter calculator each PC should get 33600 XP for defeating the encounter.

Now the next question is "how" did your characters defeat the dragon. There is a spell in Frostburn that is know to be entirely broken when it comes to dealing with dragons. I believe the effect lowers the target's Dex 3d6 points with NO SAVE which almost guarentees a helpless dragon (ave Dex 10). I'm note even sure if SR applies because it is a ranged touch attack but this spell has allowed parties that cast it to repeatedly defeat impossible encounters with high CR but low dex creatures.
Khadmus
08-22-07, 03:29 PM The DM is more than likely not playing the dragon's proper intelligence. This is a minor problem, however.
Nephlite
08-22-07, 04:26 PM Two Lv14 (both Duel classing) can one-shot a Black Dragon witch is so powerful that we don't qualify for EXP and can do
300+ DMG at Lv16

Give us the class levels. this is too vague.

Heck, Assuming I get through SR and Dragon fails Con save: My Wu Jen's Sudden Maximized Snake Darts deal 36 damage 12 Con damage. 4th level slot.
Let us assume he fails both Con saves? He lost 36 + 6 hp/level. Assuming 20 HD she lost at least 36 + 120 damage=156 hp.

Now I could Twin or empower or etc with Metamagic wands.

He is only level 7 or 8. By level 14, I can improve that with extra Fatespinner levels. So I don't find this a big problem.

Now: is he just a melee dude?
Power attack + leap attk + other PA stuff can give 8 to 1 damage.
Assuming 4 attacks: 80 PA each, 7 average weapon damage + 7 average from 2 elemental damages + 5 greater magic weapon=Easily 99 each.
I just dealt 396 damage.

Oh I forgot Str bonuses. Probably 24 Str so 7 x 1.5=10.5 x4=42 damage.

So final tally: 438 damage. This is a low estimate.

Now this assumes each hit deals damage, he isn't immune to elemental damage, and he can pounce while leap attacking.
But all possible in theory.

So the damage is possible emulate to make a simple Barbarian (with Pounce variant): ther are other ways to pounce, but that is easiest way.
LordBOB777
08-22-07, 11:22 PM please tell us more about your classes.
Callista
08-23-07, 09:29 AM I really think the DM should've been playing the dragon smarter. But I've had DMs that had dragons just sit around and claw, claw, bite, breathe at us until they were dead... So this isn't such an uncommon problem.

Something wrong with the DM? A little--he's allowing gestalt and not really giving the dragon much of a strategy. But that's nothing horrible. Playing dragons too dumb isn't really something for which you need to get the hammergun. Just tell the DM, "Huh... I thought dragons were supposed to be awesome and smart and have a trick up their sleeve for everything. This dragon was kind of wimpy." Then be prepared for a dragon to give you a run for your money...
LCD2YOU
08-23-07, 09:44 AM One of the issues many DMs have is that they don't use the monster's, BBEG's or other opponents full abilities. Sadly the creatures innate intelligence is one of those things.

Another issue is that a DM doesn't generally have time to fine tune the bad guy's defenses nor attack strategy. If all the "monster" does is "scream and leap", they will die. This is why so many parties I've seen can take on a creature with an ECL several levels above them.

The party generally has a plan, they work together (mostly) and each character has its own "brain", the player's, behind them. The DM must not only play the super-intelligent Lich (which almost always doesn't have its home devoid of air and anti-living being traps spread liberally around its lair), but the beastial gnolls as well (whose tactics are not much more than scream and leap).

The DM should have a list of the different monsters and their strategies. I will go so far as to say they should even "play out his more memorial monsters" against different "npc parties" to fine tune how they'll fight. A Lich that goes directly into hand to hand combat is not a lich, but a really weird version of a simple Orc.

As for dragons, they have egos that make all of us look like wanna-bes. But they are super smart, smarter than 99.9% of everyone on this board. They have ways of defeating their enemies. It's not "fair"? So what?

Still, like the others stated, I'd like to hear more about how you defeated the dragon and what your characters are.
Matthew77
08-23-07, 12:25 PM Remember that unless the party does something incredibly silly, they are supposed to win. These are the heroes of the story, after all.

One round fights with no risk to the PCs are boring, but not every encounter should be a nail-biting struggle that expends all the characters' resources.

Was this encounter intended to be a climatic final battle, or was it just another monster on the road to victory? (I dislike seeing dragons used as just a random encounter, but they don't always have to be the most deadly thing in the realm.)
Hsien
08-23-07, 04:21 PM Knowing more about the characters might help, as it's very unclear what you mean by 2 lvl 14's can one-shot...does that mean you each take one attack? or is that you two fight it in an arena type setting, that you didn't have to adventure to face the dragon i.e a one shot encounter?

I'm not really all that surprised though.

In every edition of D&D, starting with 1st, every Black Dragon we have encountered has died in one round. Usually as a result of a save or die spell, which gets through MR/SR and then the dragon fails it's save.
X0_Lt_0X
08-23-07, 08:11 PM First off Im sorry i haven't respawned to messages
my keyboard got broken

anyways..............

Duel classing is pretty much multiclassing
the only reason i said duel classing was because I was doing that in "Hackmaster".

First off i was actully a lv12
I was a human Monk/Dragon fire adept Lv6 each
I was sporting "Draconic fist" varient rule from dragon magic

My Frend was a Fighter/rouge Tiefling

we were only 200EXP from 14 so me and him were like hey
lets take are guild and followers and murder a dungeon of Goblins. We slautered the Goblins mercilessly then we open this one door and on the other side was A BIG BLACK DRAGON!!!!
(no way!!!!)
We shut the door and told are followers to wate outside.
we go in and get the blunt of his BW in are face, in which we
evaded easily.
then I go up and hit him a few times (threw Flurry of Blows) then
*floop*
*dead*
*jaw drop*
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
No Crit, No half-dead dragon, NO WEAKENED VARIENT
TheAngryFish
08-23-07, 11:05 PM Well one of those gesault is a 14/14 psion/wilder and the other is a 14/14 druid/cleric. Now, that would be something, wouldn't it?

I'm not the OP, that was a joke.
Hsien
08-24-07, 09:45 AM Again, Black Dragons dying in one round, not all that surprising to me...

Black Dragon getting pysically taken down in one round that way...sounds more like the dragon either just wasn't run well, or it was a much younger dragon with an enlarge spell, and DM has the CR calculated wrong perhaps.

If not, then good job.
X0_Lt_0X
08-24-07, 07:31 PM Again, Black Dragons dying in one round, not all that surprising to me...

Black Dragon getting pysically taken down in one round that way...sounds more like the dragon either just wasn't run well, or it was a much younger dragon with an enlarge spell, and DM has the CR calculated wrong perhaps.

If not, then good job.

It be very big dragon (at least Giant) it be,
it be very old dragon (at least adult) it be,
and it be big puff of acid almost killed me petal it be.
ARR, I BE A PIRATE I BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LoneStranger
08-25-07, 12:10 AM It be very big dragon (at least Giant) it be,
it be very old dragon (at least adult) it be,
and it be big puff of acid almost killed me petal it be.
ARR, I BE A PIRATE I BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you made the dragon walk the plank huh?

I do have to admit it is pretty surprising that you were able to do that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
X0_Lt_0X 08-22-07, 12:44 AM	Two Lv14 (both Duel classing) can one-shot a Black Dragon witch is so powerful that we don't qualify for EXP and can do 300+ DMG at Lv16
weasel05 08-22-07, 01:15 AM	It depends what did you do Any Save or die which you overcome the Spell Res and the dragon rolls a one on its save makes it posible so we might need more details
StevenO 08-22-07, 01:57 PM	By "dual-classing" to you mean gesault (or whatever it is that allows you to combine to classes each level)? If that is true remember that those character's power is significantly above what is normally expected from a character at that level. I also question what you mean by "do not qualify for XP" as even a Great Wyrm Black Dragon is only CR 22 which is NOT past the +8 needed to call the encounter "practically impossible." Using an encounter calculator each PC should get 33600 XP for defeating the encounter. Now the next question is "how" did your characters defeat the dragon. There is a spell in Frostburn that is know to be entirely broken when it comes to dealing with dragons. I believe the effect lowers the target's Dex 3d6 points with NO SAVE which almost guarentees a helpless dragon (ave Dex 10). I'm note even sure if SR applies because it is a ranged touch attack but this spell has allowed parties that cast it to repeatedly defeat impossible encounters with high CR but low dex creatures.
Khadmus 08-22-07, 03:29 PM	The DM is more than likely not playing the dragon's proper intelligence. This is a minor problem, however.
Nephlite 08-22-07, 04:26 PM	Two Lv14 (both Duel classing) can one-shot a Black Dragon witch is so powerful that we don't qualify for EXP and can do 300+ DMG at Lv16 Give us the class levels. this is too vague. Heck, Assuming I get through SR and Dragon fails Con save: My Wu Jen's Sudden Maximized Snake Darts deal 36 damage 12 Con damage. 4th level slot. Let us assume he fails both Con saves? He lost 36 + 6 hp/level. Assuming 20 HD she lost at least 36 + 120 damage=156 hp. Now I could Twin or empower or etc with Metamagic wands. He is only level 7 or 8. By level 14, I can improve that with extra Fatespinner levels. So I don't find this a big problem. Now: is he just a melee dude? Power attack + leap attk + other PA stuff can give 8 to 1 damage. Assuming 4 attacks: 80 PA each, 7 average weapon damage + 7 average from 2 elemental damages + 5 greater magic weapon=Easily 99 each. I just dealt 396 damage. Oh I forgot Str bonuses. Probably 24 Str so 7 x 1.5=10.5 x4=42 damage. So final tally: 438 damage. This is a low estimate. Now this assumes each hit deals damage, he isn't immune to elemental damage, and he can pounce while leap attacking. But all possible in theory. So the damage is possible emulate to make a simple Barbarian (with Pounce variant): ther are other ways to pounce, but that is easiest way.
LordBOB777 08-22-07, 11:22 PM	please tell us more about your classes.
Callista 08-23-07, 09:29 AM	I really think the DM should've been playing the dragon smarter. But I've had DMs that had dragons just sit around and claw, claw, bite, breathe at us until they were dead... So this isn't such an uncommon problem. Something wrong with the DM? A little--he's allowing gestalt and not really giving the dragon much of a strategy. But that's nothing horrible. Playing dragons too dumb isn't really something for which you need to get the hammergun. Just tell the DM, "Huh... I thought dragons were supposed to be awesome and smart and have a trick up their sleeve for everything. This dragon was kind of wimpy." Then be prepared for a dragon to give you a run for your money...
LCD2YOU 08-23-07, 09:44 AM	One of the issues many DMs have is that they don't use the monster's, BBEG's or other opponents full abilities. Sadly the creatures innate intelligence is one of those things. Another issue is that a DM doesn't generally have time to fine tune the bad guy's defenses nor attack strategy. If all the "monster" does is "scream and leap", they will die. This is why so many parties I've seen can take on a creature with an ECL several levels above them. The party generally has a plan, they work together (mostly) and each character has its own "brain", the player's, behind them. The DM must not only play the super-intelligent Lich (which almost always doesn't have its home devoid of air and anti-living being traps spread liberally around its lair), but the beastial gnolls as well (whose tactics are not much more than scream and leap). The DM should have a list of the different monsters and their strategies. I will go so far as to say they should even "play out his more memorial monsters" against different "npc parties" to fine tune how they'll fight. A Lich that goes directly into hand to hand combat is not a lich, but a really weird version of a simple Orc. As for dragons, they have egos that make all of us look like wanna-bes. But they are super smart, smarter than 99.9% of everyone on this board. They have ways of defeating their enemies. It's not "fair"? So what? Still, like the others stated, I'd like to hear more about how you defeated the dragon and what your characters are.
Matthew77 08-23-07, 12:25 PM	Remember that unless the party does something incredibly silly, they are supposed to win. These are the heroes of the story, after all. One round fights with no risk to the PCs are boring, but not every encounter should be a nail-biting struggle that expends all the characters' resources. Was this encounter intended to be a climatic final battle, or was it just another monster on the road to victory? (I dislike seeing dragons used as just a random encounter, but they don't always have to be the most deadly thing in the realm.)
Hsien 08-23-07, 04:21 PM	Knowing more about the characters might help, as it's very unclear what you mean by 2 lvl 14's can one-shot...does that mean you each take one attack? or is that you two fight it in an arena type setting, that you didn't have to adventure to face the dragon i.e a one shot encounter? I'm not really all that surprised though. In every edition of D&D, starting with 1st, every Black Dragon we have encountered has died in one round. Usually as a result of a save or die spell, which gets through MR/SR and then the dragon fails it's save.
X0_Lt_0X 08-23-07, 08:11 PM	First off Im sorry i haven't respawned to messages my keyboard got broken anyways.............. Duel classing is pretty much multiclassing the only reason i said duel classing was because I was doing that in "Hackmaster". First off i was actully a lv12 I was a human Monk/Dragon fire adept Lv6 each I was sporting "Draconic fist" varient rule from dragon magic My Frend was a Fighter/rouge Tiefling we were only 200EXP from 14 so me and him were like hey lets take are guild and followers and murder a dungeon of Goblins. We slautered the Goblins mercilessly then we open this one door and on the other side was A BIG BLACK DRAGON!!!! (no way!!!!) We shut the door and told are followers to wate outside. we go in and get the blunt of his BW in are face, in which we evaded easily. then I go up and hit him a few times (threw Flurry of Blows) then floop dead jaw drop YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! No Crit, No half-dead dragon, NO WEAKENED VARIENT
TheAngryFish 08-23-07, 11:05 PM	Well one of those gesault is a 14/14 psion/wilder and the other is a 14/14 druid/cleric. Now, that would be something, wouldn't it? I'm not the OP, that was a joke.
Hsien 08-24-07, 09:45 AM	Again, Black Dragons dying in one round, not all that surprising to me... Black Dragon getting pysically taken down in one round that way...sounds more like the dragon either just wasn't run well, or it was a much younger dragon with an enlarge spell, and DM has the CR calculated wrong perhaps. If not, then good job.
X0_Lt_0X 08-24-07, 07:31 PM	Again, Black Dragons dying in one round, not all that surprising to me... Black Dragon getting pysically taken down in one round that way...sounds more like the dragon either just wasn't run well, or it was a much younger dragon with an enlarge spell, and DM has the CR calculated wrong perhaps. If not, then good job. It be very big dragon (at least Giant) it be, it be very old dragon (at least adult) it be, and it be big puff of acid almost killed me petal it be. ARR, I BE A PIRATE I BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LoneStranger 08-25-07, 12:10 AM	It be very big dragon (at least Giant) it be, it be very old dragon (at least adult) it be, and it be big puff of acid almost killed me petal it be. ARR, I BE A PIRATE I BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So you made the dragon walk the plank huh? I do have to admit it is pretty surprising that you were able to do that.