Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lyric 12-02-05, 04:32 PM	Ok, so I was recently reviewing Psychic Warriors.. And comparing them to a half-orc Fighter... both level 20... I did some number crunching (shown bellow) and if I'm right.. a 20th level psychic warrior, in a toe-to-toe battle with a half-orc fighter, would likely be untouchable! I used the Players Handbook, DMG, and Expanded Psionics handbook.. admittedly I probably didn't take every option into account, but I tried to focus on the same areas for each.. basically, bonus to hit, and bonus to AC.. Psychic Warrior Level 20 Str: 16 ; Dex: 23 ; Con: 14 ; Int: 16 ; Wis: 22 ; Chr: 11 (Wis originally 18, given a 4 point inherant bonus by wish) Bonus to hit : +24 / +19 / +14 (use of augmented Metaphysical Weapon, Extended) AC Score : 75 (Flat footed 66 ; Touch Attack 47) **All powers used with Extend Power Feat** Inertial Armor 22 PP, Duration 40 hrs, Armor Bonus +14 Force Screen 22 PP, Duration 40 min, Shield Bonus +9 Precog, Def. 23 PP, Duration 40 min, Insight Bonus +8 Thicken Skin 23 PP, Duration 400 min, Enhancement Bonus +8 Mental Barrier 22 PP, Duration 36 rnds, Deflection Bonus +5 Pertinent Feats: Dodge * Dodge, Psionic * Combat Expertise * Ghost Attack Deep Impact Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon Extend Power Overchannel Talented Psionic Meditation * = Not applied to AC above... Other Mods to AC: Belt of the Monk (granting a +1 AC modifier when unarmored, which should count when using his powers, and adding his wisdom mod to AC) = +7 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 Gauntlets of Dex +6 (making a total Dex bonus to AC of +9) I took all these into account and tried to max out a Fighter half-orc of level 20.. I got his bonus to hit as high as +40 with specialized weapons, wish enhanced and item enhanced strength.. and an AC of 41 with every stackable magic item I could think of (Dwarven Plate +5; Heavy Shield +5; Amulet of Natural Armor +5; Ring of Protection +5) I couldn't see anything else that would enhance it further.. Downside for the fighter.. his touch attack AC is 16.. which is what the Psychic Warrior will be striking at... meanwhile, I know of no weapon or feat (help me out here) where a fighter could attack the Psychic Warrior the same way, best he'll get is a flat footed attack, and that is at a 66, out of his range even with a natural 20... All this, at level 20, NO higher.. is this allowed?? is there something I'm missing that could balance things out in this toe-to-toe match?
Radijs 12-02-05, 05:02 PM	Note that bonuses of the same kind do not stack. The monks belt for once gives you an armor bonus just as inertial armor. So you take only the best of those two. But the best place to get this picked apart is the character optimization forum. Thats where the experts are at.
Lyric 12-02-05, 05:13 PM	good point, thanks :) but I don't think the monk AC bonus is an Armor bonus, simply a bonus.. which the rules state stack with anything.. its an exceptional ability that adds the wis mod and a +1 in this case, right on top, that still applies even if used against a touch attack.
Radijs 12-02-05, 05:20 PM	You may be right. Under the monk entry its called an AC bonus or adding wisdom modifier to AC. But the monk's belt calls it an armor bonus.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-02-05, 05:44 PM	But the monk's belt calls it an armor bonus.No it doesn't. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. ... If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). It's not an armor bonus, it's an unnamed bonus, so it stacks with just about everything except itself.
Sardrakh 12-02-05, 05:48 PM	You realize that this Psychic Warrior has spent nearly his complete Power Point reserve on some extended Powers? I hope for this poor sod that he makes use of Dispelling Buffer if he wants to keep them up. One way to take this PW out is Grapple. Amulet of Natural Armor and Thicken Skin don't stack as they both give an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor. PP use for Inertial Armor is 23 instead of 22, same with Force Screen Precognition, defensive: only +7 insight. You can only augment 6 times. 1 PP base cost + 18 PP augmentation + 2 PP extend = 21 PP same for Thicken Skin. Mental Barrier: base cost 5 PP + augmentation 4 PP (AC+1) + 12 PP augmentation (12 additional rounds) + 2 PP extend = Deflection +5, duration 26 rounds Your new AC: 10 base + 9 dex + 5 deflection + 8 monk's belt + 7 insight + 7 Natural Armor (enhancement) +14 AC +9 Shield = 69 AC => Touch: 39 ,Flat Footed: 60 Half-Orc Fighter: Strength 20 base + 5 level up + 5 tome + 6 Belt of Giant Strength= 36, +12 bonus to hit: 20 Bab + 12 bonus + 1 WF (Greatsword) + 1 GWF (Greatsword) + 4 Greatsword + 1 Pale green Ioun Stone + (2 bane) = 37 (39) AC: 10 base + 8 Celestial Armor + 8 dex + 5 deflection + 5 Natural Armor + 9 animated Tower Shield + 1 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone = 46 AC he uses a +4 Bane(x)[or wounding], Brilliant Energy Greatsword with which he will always hit your Touch AC, if he catches the PW flat footed (gets a surprise round and acts first in the initative order) he will crush you with some nicely placed Power Attacks. Sardrakh
Lyric 12-02-05, 06:19 PM	True, I did miscalculate some, I hoped the Thicken Skin would double with another form of Natural Armor bonus, simply because the power only states it is an Enhancement bonus to AC, didn't say Natural Armor bonus... but I can live without using the amulet... However, I want to dispute that the Brilliant Energy weapon could bypass my armor.. my armor isn't inorganic material, its psychokinetic energy, which not even a ghost can bypass, why then your sword? would this take a DM's ruling?
Sardrakh 12-02-05, 06:38 PM	To quote the SRD: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) right there. You could read that it only ignores "normal" armor but then it goes on to explain that Armor bonuses to AC (note that it doesn't distinguishes between spells/powers and normal armor) are ignored. Sardrakh
Radijs 12-02-05, 06:54 PM	Hmm I swore I remembered that it said that it conferred the armor bonus of a 5th level monk to the wearer. Oh well nobodys perfect.
Lyric 12-02-05, 07:43 PM	To quote the SRD: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) right there. You could read that it only ignores "normal" armor but then it goes on to explain that Armor bonuses to AC (note that it doesn't distinguishes between spells/powers and normal armor) are ignored. Sardrakh True, it doesn't take that into account, but the way I look at it, is thus.. A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that inorganic material armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through inorganic material armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) I look at is as the powers made, are psychokinetic force.. and therefore energy.. it may have a snowballs chance in hades of swaying the DM, but I'd give it a shot and ask for a ruling.. otherwise.. the sword not only bypasses physical armor, but spells/powers as well.. meaning.. it makes magic and psionics not exist if they affect armor or shield bonuses.. and that doesn't sound fair.. they work on different systems/properties..
Fargren 12-02-05, 08:12 PM	Well, psionic characters(and casters for that amtter) that expend ALL(or t least more than half) their resources in one enocunter will always be victourious on normal sirsumsnces. However, D&D is balanced around a 4 enconters per deay quota. So in 41 minutes, your Psi warrior will ahve an AC of 48, and will have his sad 3/4 BAB, along with d8 hp, being sinificantly weaker than the fighter( wich also is considered a weak class in general, so probably shouldn't be used as a proof that another class is badly designed). Alos, a simple dispell magic/psionics(or their greater versions) will make this Psy warrior pretty sad.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-02-05, 10:17 PM	Thicken Skin and the Amulet do not stack. Both provide an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
Deekin 12-02-05, 11:00 PM	Inertial Armor 22 PP, Duration 40 hrs, Armor Bonus +14 Force Screen 22 PP, Duration 40 min, Shield Bonus +9 Precog, Def. 23 PP, Duration 40 min, Insight Bonus +8 Thicken Skin 23 PP, Duration 400 min, Enhancement Bonus +8 Mental Barrier 22 PP, Duration 36 rnds, Deflection Bonus +5 YOAHHGA+H+WBU!!! YOU BROKE THE PP CAP!!! YOU CANNOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A POWER THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL!!! ARG!!! HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS BE EXPLANED!?!?! Sorry for the rant, but you did do somthing wrong with the build, and this is like the 80th time today I've correted someone on the PP cap. Stupid slow learning players.
DarknessEternal 12-02-05, 11:31 PM	YOAHHGA+H+WBU!!! YOU BROKE THE PP CAP!!! YOU CANNOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A POWER THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL!!! ARG!!! HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS BE EXPLANED!?!?! Sorry for the rant, but you did do somthing wrong with the build, and this is like the 80th time today I've correted someone on the PP cap. Stupid slow learning players. Like yourself? Read what Overchannel and Talented do. On the actual topic. That Psychic Warrior would basically have committed suicide unless he has some way to guarantee he's only fighting someone that needs to roll to hit him and also will only last x number of rounds.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-03-05, 12:44 AM	What sensible 20th level fighter doesn't have at least one way of tossing up an Antimagic Field, even if it's just a one-use item? What's your AC unbuffed? 15? The fighter can't possibly miss you if he brings every buff you have down.
Lyric 12-03-05, 01:28 AM	What sensible 20th level fighter doesn't have at least one way of tossing up an Antimagic Field, even if it's just a one-use item? What's your AC unbuffed? 15? The fighter can't possibly miss you if he brings every buff you have down. true, but I can by pass his buffs also.... I was just curious if I saw this correctly.. that a PsyW could innately buff himself out of the threat range of a fighter.. while a fighter.. doesn't have the innate abilities to compensate... strip them both down, dump them in a pit after a nights rest... and I know which I'd bet would win... easy..
Kyuketsukiouji 12-03-05, 01:40 AM	true, but I can by pass his buffs also.... I was just curious if I saw this correctly.. that a PsyW could innately buff himself out of the threat range of a fighter.. while a fighter.. doesn't have the innate abilities to compensate... strip them both down, dump them in a pit after a nights rest... and I know which I'd bet would win... easy.. Well yes. But by the same token, strip them both down, dump them in a pit after a whole night awake, where the Psychic Warrior has no PP left, and I know who I bet on. Just like you, in a situation where one character has an overwhelming advantage over the other, I'd never take the sucker bet either.
Commander of Chaos 12-03-05, 02:53 AM	The most Powerful Character in D&D (that a DM would allow) is a barbarian with an antimagic field.
DarknessEternal 12-03-05, 10:14 AM	I was just curious if I saw this correctly.. that a PsyW could innately buff himself out of the threat range of a fighter.. while a fighter.. doesn't have the innate abilities to compensate... The Fighter has abilities to compensate. It's called the Run action. All he has to do is wait out the duration of the powers. The Psychic Warrior can never catch him, they're the same speed. After his powers run out, he'll also never be able to hit the Fighter with his crappy attack bonus and no power points to help that. It's a cake walk for the Fighter. You see, when you're a Fighter, you have a distinct lack of abilities that include the phrase "times per day". Fight to your strengths, not your enemies.
Lyric 12-03-05, 12:55 PM	So I should give my Psychic Warrior two uses of the Speed of Thought feat... so his base speed goes up by 20... good idea ;)
DarknessEternal 12-03-05, 03:01 PM	So I should give my Psychic Warrior two uses of the Speed of Thought feat Sure, feel free to cheat if you have to. In case you didn't understand that, you can't take feats multiple times unless they say you can. The point remains the same though. A Fighter has every chance to beat that Psychic Warrior. For example, no Fighter I constructed would even be to half HP by the time your Psychic Warrior is pushing up the daisys. Aside from the obvious weaknesses I've already pointed out, here's some more: disarm and sunder are opposed attack rolls (AC is irrelevant), grapple checks are based on base attack. A Fighter never has to be locked into one style of fighting, he gets 18 feats. Your guy can only do one thing: avoid hits that use his non-touch AC. Heck, your guy doesn't even do damage or hit worth a crap. A TWF Fighter could just stand next to him and get in a natural 20 roll off on attacks and still come out way ahead.
Surgo 12-03-05, 03:22 PM	Amulet of Natural Armor and Thicken Skin don't stack as they both give an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor. Thicken Skin and the Amulet do not stack. Both provide an enhancement bonus to natural armor. Incorrect. Thicken skin provides an enhancement bonus to armor class, not an enhancement bonus to natural armor. This issue was brought up when the XPH first came out and has never been errata'd, essentially making it an unnamed bonus (because nothing else does the same). Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body, providing a +1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class.
Novacat 12-03-05, 03:23 PM	A dragon breaths on your PsyWarrior build, and then sits on it. Dodge that.
Fargren 12-03-05, 03:30 PM	grapple checks are based on base attack. They requiere a touch attack... However you make good points.
Lyric 12-03-05, 04:23 PM	Sure, feel free to cheat if you have to. In case you didn't understand that, you can't take feats multiple times unless they say you can.. My mistake, I thougth that oen stacked with itself... As far as smashing my weapon, well, I could simply use call weapon rather than metaphysical weapon, and gain the same result in attack bonuses, and there's no reason I couldn't simply Sunder your weapons as well is there? Also I could easily use a two handed weapon, which would make disarming more difficult, right? And as far as trying to hit you, the reason I'm attacking your touch armor class, is because it makes it far easier for me to strike you.. what is the max touch AC you can grant your fighter? (seriously, do tell, I'm trying to get the two classes on equal footing, then I'll simply pair them together ;) and have them whoop tail on someone else! :D) Oh, as for those who mentioned using a majority of the players Power Points, while that is true, I was thinking I'd grant the character the craft psi-crown feat, that way, he'd have at least a few of his powers buffed up with a PP source not his own.. leaving room for other powers people may find more useful.. (dispelling buffer for example, and breath of the black dragon) but these are all good points for me to consider, I appreciate everyone's input. (even though some sound a little overzealous ;) ) now when I craft my fighters, I'll make sure to take into account grapple style combat for over armored foes :) Side note: so are we now agreed that thicken skin is an enhancement bonus to AC and not a bonus to natural ac?? as I originally thought?
Sardrakh 12-03-05, 05:45 PM	Well, it's already in the Power description: Thicken Skin Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 1 Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body, providing a +1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the enhancement bonus increases by 1. 2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action. Sardrakh
Fargren 12-03-05, 06:17 PM	Oh, as for those who mentioned using a majority of the players Power Points, while that is true, I was thinking I'd grant the character the craft psi-crown feat, that way, he'd have at least a few of his powers buffed up with a PP source not his own.. leaving room for other powers people may find more useful.. (dispelling buffer for example, and breath of the black dragon) If you give him that feat and the crown, you'll have to make him 19th lvl, to represent th XP loss. That will lower his AC a bit(not that much, though). And making custom Magical/psionic items that are not listed in the manual is generally considered cheating when you are making a class comparison, or trying to break a record, at least in the CO a boards, even if it follows the guide in the XPH or the DMG, so I would not give the PsyWar a crown with Dispelling Buffer and BotBD, unless such item is listed in the XPH. A few Dorjes would be allright, anyway...
DarknessEternal 12-04-05, 04:21 AM	As far as smashing my weapon, well, I could simply use call weapon rather than metaphysical weapon, and gain the same result in attack bonuses, and there's no reason I couldn't simply Sunder your weapons as well is there? Not while your out of power points from all those other powers, you won't be using Call Weapon. Also, a Fighter is going to have 5 higher base attack, and about +10 more to hit from strength and feats on top of that. He'll disarm and sunder you, not the other way around. You're touch armor class is also pretty hittable (from the accurate numbers used later). One grapple and your Psy War is in the Fighter's mouth.
ff6shadow 12-04-05, 11:34 AM	Don't have my books and sort of guessing on what your using for stats, but here goes. Also, letting Thicken Skin stack with Amulet of Natural Armor Half-Orc Fighter 20 Str 24 (16 +2 racial +6 Enhancment) Dex 32 (18 +4 level +6 Enhancment +4 Inherent) Con 12 Int 13 (14 -2 racial +1 Level) Wis 22 (16 +6 Enhancment) Cha 9 (11 -2 racial) Equipment (No books guessing on value, but should make it) Periapt of Wisdom +6 Gloves of Dex +6 Monk's Belt Belt of Gian't Strength +6 Ring of Protection +5 Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose) Potion, Haste Potion, Displacement Locked Gauntlets Brillant Energy Spiked Chain +5 Book +4 Inherent to Dex Feats Weapon Finesse Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Combat Expertise Improved Trip Improved Disarm Dodge Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Greater Weapon Focus Greater Weapon Specialization Improved Initiative Power Attack Attacks +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 Aiming at AC 47 I believe since you Armor and Shield bonus are ignored. AC 10+11 Dex +7 Monk Belt +5 Ring + 1 Ioun Stone (Insight) +1 Dodge (Haste)=35, Touch 35, Flat-footed 24 Preferably, any real hits are going to be after I've disarmed you then tripped you. I believe prone removes Dex to AC. AC if Prone Drops Dex = 33 AC if Prone does not Drop Dex = 42 Either I'm hitting you hard, or I'm hitting your harder, but do not doubt, I am hitting you. Sure, you hitting me too, but I'm doing more times with more damage each hit. You need a 15 to hit me with the first attack, then your missing me without a 20. Me, I'm hitting you with just about anything for the first three attacks. I'd probably use Power Attack. (hope I didn't miss anything from lack of books being present)
Jayr 12-04-05, 03:20 PM	Thicken skin doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armor. They both provide enhancement bonuses to natural armor.
kinjojones 12-04-05, 03:53 PM	I guess in a situational vacuum where the characters make only standard attacks the numbers say the Psychic Warrior wins. But in an in game situation where alot of things can happen it can go either way. It would all depend on the situation really. One character wins if X is the situation and another wins if Y is the situation. That's kind of the point of the game and the reason parties have varied character classes. There shouldn't a class who can do all of X,Y, and even Z. When the party goes to sleep in an inn on the side of the road returning from a succesful dungeon crawl and wakes up stripped naked in a locked cell. The barbarians for bending the bars when the rogue doesn't have his picks and the monks for fighting when no one has their equipment etc.
Surgo 12-04-05, 05:19 PM	Thicken skin doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armor. They both provide enhancement bonuses to natural armor. Read the thread, this has already been debunked multiple times.
Jayr 12-04-05, 05:35 PM	Thicken skin doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armor. They both provide enhancement bonuses to natural armor.Read the thread, this has already been debunked multiple times.If somebody (ff6shadow?) still doesn't understand it, maybe it hasn't been debunked enough.
Surgo 12-04-05, 08:19 PM	If somebody (ff6shadow?) still doesn't understand it, maybe it hasn't been debunked enough. You misunderstand me. They do stack, as reading the power will show you.
ff6shadow 12-05-05, 10:53 AM	Exactly as Surgo says. Its pretty obvious they stack. If for some reason they didn't (DM Ruling), the fighter kicks even more ***.
Jayr 12-05-05, 06:11 PM	Okay, I mistook thicken skin for granting an enhancement bonus to natural armor. I'm an idiot. I admit.
Lyric 12-05-05, 08:57 PM	Not quite Jayr, I had to do a double take on that myself.. to be honest, if I were DMing, I'd have it be an enhancement to Natural Armor.. but, since I'm not.. I'll vote for the strait enhancement ;) Not that it matters that much anyway.. I'd prefer to make use of the power without any magical enhancements.. I tend to play solo adventures, and wizard shops don't appear that regularly :P but if you can make it, its usually yours :) My question is, what else could be done to buff the psywarrior as far as combat, to put him "along side" the fighter... and have them work together as equals :)
Kragg Bonemeal 12-05-05, 11:02 PM	Thicken Skin Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 1 Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body, providing a +1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the enhancement bonus increases by 1. 2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action. Um... I don't see where it stacks. It provides a "+1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class" by having "Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body". How is that not just the same as an amulet of Nat Armor giving you Enhancements to your Natural Armor? Are you all forgetting that most humanoids have Nat Armor 0 to begin with? Just because you don't have a monster bonus that factors into your normal AC doesn't mean you don't have anything in that category. Just wearing clothes (jeans and a t-shirt with Armor 0) can make you eligible for spells that "enhance your armor"... normal armor bonus of 0 + spell enhancement to armor of 3 = +3 to AC from Armor.
ChimericalWolf 12-05-05, 11:29 PM	Um... I don't see where it stacks. Here is where it stacks: Thicken Skin: +1 Enhancement Bonus to AC. Amulet of Natural Armor: +1 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor. They each give a bonus to a different thing. So they stack.
Lyric 12-06-05, 01:24 AM	touchy subject... :P oh, someone (on this thread or another) was promoting fighters over psychic warriors, in part, because of the 5 point bab that exists difference between the two.. well.. that is true.. but for the length of any really long battle, I can manifest a weapon, or enhance a weapon, as a psychic warrior, with a +5 enhancement bonus.. and on top of that.. grant myself an additional +5 to hit insight bonus, and +6 to damage.. (for those mathematically challenged, that's +10 to hit and +11 to damage) :) not bad, helps to level the playing field some I think :) And if the warrior looses his weapon, or has it sundered, he's outta luck.. if my psychic warrior breaks his, he's got a new one just a thought away :) if it were me, I'd probably run around with a psychic weapon of some kind, with a lower than +5 bonus, and manifest the +5 one, for emergencies :) that way, it makes things more flexible :) but that's just my style on things.. ;) Otherwise, if you only had the power that added a bonus, it becomes usesless if you have a weapon already with that bonus :P
Kragg Bonemeal 12-06-05, 09:11 AM	Quote: Originally Posted by Kragg Bonemeal Um... I don't see where it stacks. Here is where it stacks: Thicken Skin: +1 Enhancement Bonus to AC. Amulet of Natural Armor: +1 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor. They each give a bonus to a different thing. So they stack. Ah... they stack by the principles of sophistry. Got it.
ChimericalWolf 12-06-05, 02:12 PM	Ah... they stack by the principles of sophistry. Got it. Well, there's nothing actually wrong or misleading about what I said, so sophistry isn't really the correct word. I am inclined to agree with you on, with regards to the fact of whether or not it makes sense _flavorwise_ for them to stack. It doesn't. Looking at the description of Thicken Skin, it really _should_ provide a bonus to Natural Armor, of some kind. But it doesn't. By RAW, Thicken Skin and AoNA stack because they provide bonuses to seperate things. If I went to play with a DM and he told me that he house ruled Thicken Skin to enhance Nat. Armor, I'd nod and get on with my life. But it's not important to talk about what house rules _could_ be made, only what the RAW is, because RAW is the only thing we can really prove, it's the only thing we can reference books for. Great appologies for aiding in the derailing of the thread.
DarknessEternal 12-06-05, 02:38 PM	oh, someone (on this thread or another) was promoting fighters over psychic warriors, in part, because of the 5 point bab that exists difference between the two.. well.. that is true.. but for the length of any really long battle, I can manifest a weapon, or enhance a weapon, as a psychic warrior, with a +5 enhancement bonus.. and on top of that.. grant myself an additional +5 to hit insight bonus, and +6 to damage.. (for those mathematically challenged, that's +10 to hit and +11 to damage) :) not bad, helps to level the playing field some I think :) And if the warrior looses his weapon, or has it sundered, he's outta luck.. if my psychic warrior breaks his, he's got a new one just a thought away :) Man, you have no concept of how many power points a Psychic Warrior has. You've spent considerably more than he's allowed to per day in your defense of "psywars own fighters" theory.
Lyric 12-06-05, 08:25 PM	well to be honest, I've never played a psywarrior, and more than likely, at 20th level, AC may become irrelevant do to the types of battles he'd be in.. but I was thinking of using a psicrown to bolster some of that power point burn... a psicrown made by a 20th level character, should have about 1000 power points, am I right? And so while my character would normally have somewhere between 150-175 daily, the psicrown would make several uses of these powers together not near as damaging.. though that would then require some experience on his part to craft the item.. also, how often would one need to stack so many powers enhanced that far? Mostly I'd think of the powers I'd listed, only a few, maybe 3 or so, of the defense powers, would be placed in the crown, and Inertial Armor would definitely be left for the psiwarrior to use on his own steam, because he could make it last for 20-40 hours... I'd figure stacking these powers would be when facing off against the jugernaught fighter or barbarian king in a one on one battle... to keep onseself alive, and defend against those ever gruesome power attacks... also.. it might be good against monsters with devestating powers dependent on physical attacks.. now though, I'm trying to take a look and see if there are other powers that are must haves... any recomendations??
Surgo 12-06-05, 08:46 PM	Ah... they stack by the principles of sophistry. Got it. Something about the Oberoni Fallacy.
Lyric 12-06-05, 11:29 PM	I'm amazed at how much people are stuck on that one little detail :P
Fargren 12-07-05, 09:46 AM	now though, I'm trying to take a look and see if there are other powers that are must haves... any recomendations?? Claws of the Beast. Hustle. Energy adaptation, specified. Psionic Lion Charge(for some really good builds). Evade Burst. Dimesnion Dorr, psionic. Form of Doom. Just to anme a few.
mythandra 12-08-05, 04:07 PM	I look at is as the powers made, are psychokinetic force.. and therefore energy.. it may have a snowballs chance in hades of swaying the DM, but I'd give it a shot and ask for a ruling.. otherwise.. the sword not only bypasses physical armor, but spells/powers as well.. meaning.. it makes magic and psionics not exist if they affect armor or shield bonuses.. and that doesn't sound fair.. they work on different systems/properties.. What they meant to say was that brilliant energy only affects organic material. Stating that something "only bypasses inorganic material" is similar but contains certain logical errors in meaning that you picked up on. Your energy fields aren't "organic material", thus you don't get 'em. Anyone who doesn't believe me is free to ask wizards for a clarification. They'll back me up.
Lyric 12-10-05, 04:16 PM	Claws of the Beast. Hustle. Energy adaptation, specified. Psionic Lion Charge(for some really good builds). Evade Burst. Dimesnion Dorr, psionic. Form of Doom. Just to anme a few. curious, how do you utilize the psionic liong charge in your builds? also, why form of doom? and why claws of the beast?
Always-Late 12-10-05, 04:34 PM	Deleted.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-10-05, 05:16 PM	curious, how do you utilize the psionic liong charge in your builds? also, why form of doom? and why claws of the beast? Becuase they're some of the best PsiWarrior powers around?
Lyric 12-11-05, 01:21 AM	to me best is a matter of style and personal preference... what style sticks out for you in those powers? why are those must haves for you?
DarknessEternal 12-11-05, 04:24 AM	I wouldn't even use Form of Doom. I like to do my fighting as me, not some B-movie monster.
Lyric 12-13-05, 02:43 AM	that's my style as well... fight as me.. more options that way... and looks better.. (unless you're going for a mortal kombat II style feel :P )