Is this barbarian too powerful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this barbarian too powerful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grevious Windcruiser
09-06-04, 10:24 AM A friend of mine plays a human babarian and at level four he has 55 hit points. I think he's a bit overpowered, but I could be wrong. (He has the Toughness feat twice.) What do you think?
Cyricist
09-06-04, 10:50 AM Overpowered because of his hitpoints? Far from it. If he'd had that many hitpoints at level 5 without the toughness feats he still wouldn't be. In fact, he would have just rolled slightly above average (D12 plus con modifier, which is usually pretty high with barbarians).
anders
09-06-04, 10:58 AM I doubt he is overpowered.

thougness feat sucks
Kalanth
09-06-04, 11:22 AM There is a nice Toughness feat in the CW, Improved toughness. This feat gives the character an extra HP per HD and is retroactive. But, having 55 HP at lvl 4 is not over powered. The only thing I have to ask is this, is your group giving maximum HP per lvl on purpose? Afterall, with no Con bonus, at lvl 4 the max is 48. That means that if you are not giving out max hp, you might wana say something to your DM.
Limit
09-06-04, 12:33 PM There is a nice Toughness feat in the CW, Improved toughness. This feat gives the character an extra HP per HD and is retroactive. But, having 55 HP at lvl 4 is not over powered. The only thing I have to ask is this, is your group giving maximum HP per lvl on purpose? Afterall, with no Con bonus, at lvl 4 the max is 48. That means that if you are not giving out max hp, you might wana say something to your DM.

Well, toughness twice gives you 6 HP, so he's at 49 with his con mod. 12 at first level means he got 37 from his other levels, plus conx4. He's human, so no mod to con, but he still could easily have a +3 mod, so 12 points takes his total for three levels down to 25. So he's really just a little bit above average (~19 in three levels) but nothing to become alarmed about.

:)

But really, to the original poster, I would venture to say that this character is underpowered. The Toughness feat is really weak in comparison to the feats that he could have taken instead.
Kalanth
09-06-04, 12:36 PM Well, toughness twice gives you 6 HP, so he's at 49 with his con mod. 12 at first level means he got 37 from his other levels, plus conx4. He's human, so no mod to con, but he still could easily have a +3 mod, so 12 points takes his total for three levels down to 25. So he's really just a little bit above average (~19 in three levels) but nothing to become alarmed about.

:)

But really, to the original poster, I would venture to say that this character is underpowered. The Toughness feat is really weak in comparison to the feats that he could have taken instead.

I give myself a collective slap on the forehead, I overlooked the toughness feat in my calculations.
kaosluke
09-06-04, 02:36 PM our barbarian is at level 7 and has a 90 something he has a high con so that seems normal to me, our barb is a half-orc and his strength is a 20 cause he rolled an 18 and placed it in str
lotterybucks
09-06-04, 10:25 PM 4th level and toughness taken twice? I would say he is even a bit WEAK. Instead of getting those 6 extra hitpoints, an offensive/combat feat would've given him special abilities which would have dealt more damage, thus making him powerful. 55 hps is high, but not overpowering.

Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark...
AvengedMutablegenus
09-06-04, 11:19 PM Bah! What a waste!
I currently have a 4th level barb with a huge con bonus and his hp is 53, and i didn't take toughness once...
Fern
09-06-04, 11:25 PM Simple test: how many rounds would it take him to kill two or more creatures with CR = to his level.

A) One, maybe two rounds per target. Barbarian takes minimal damage.
B) I dunno, he might be able to. Depends on the creatures.
C) You're kidding ... right?
D) Do they fight back?

Answers are as follows:

A) Your campaign may eventually suffer from a Half-Celestial Lvl 24? (don't remember exactly, too traumatic) Barbarian / 10+ Frenzied Berserker Demigod w/ 2k+ hps. One who lugs around a sack of "circlets of 100 wishes" and uses them to threat crits.
Recommendations: Immediate termination of player. Extreme measures approved.
B) He's a Barbarian, it happens once in a while.
Recommendations: Use him as a shield. Duh. ;)
C) He's quite safe.
Recommendations: Don't take toughness, ever. Dragon's Toughness so much better. :angel:
D) Need I say more?

:D
~Fern
Kalanth
09-07-04, 12:55 AM Dragon's Toughness so much better. :angel:

Have not looked it up in ages, might not remember exactly, but isn't toughness a requiremnet for Dragon toughness? Still, everyone is right, toughness was a waisted feat for this guy, almost as bad as things like Iron Will and such. Those little boosts are just not as necessary as maybe a power attack, cleave and great cleave, and so on. More combat skills would be good for the barbarian, and less hit point improvements. However, its that guys character, and they can make as many bad choices as they want. I think I will stick to making my archers that can kill in one round (when the optional triple threat to kill rule is in effect).
kaosluke
09-07-04, 10:21 AM Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark...

your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp
starfire311
09-07-04, 11:14 AM Bah! What a waste!
I currently have a 4th level barb with a huge con bonus and his hp is 53, and i didn't take toughness once...

Exactly my Dwarven barbarian 3/Fighter 1 had 52 without a tougness feat and a Con of 18(Rolled 7+4(Fighter Level), 12+4, 5+4)... I level up yesterday and now I am Barbarian 4/ Fighter 1 and I rolled a 7 on D12 and now I have 63 HP at 5th level.

My feats are Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Weapon Focus(Great Sword), All of which are way better than Toughness... Although I am considoring Improved toughness now.

I know Imp. Unarmed strike is a little wierd, but I really want to try out reaping mauler.
Fern
09-07-04, 04:34 PM Have not looked it up in ages, might not remember exactly, but isn't toughness a requiremnet for Dragon toughness?

Think it just requires high base fort save, might be wrong though, loned all my books to my friends when they left for college.
jnrhayz
09-07-04, 05:06 PM kaosluke Quote:
Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark...

your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp

How is that possible?

Elf -2 Con Max 16 (+3)

Ranger 10 max hit die 8 = 80 + 30 = 110hp

if you dumped both points into con 120, but you are 3 short of that. Which means you rolled max on at least 6 rolls and 7 on the other three.

Which is needless to say, not common.
starfire311
09-07-04, 06:00 PM How is that possible?

Elf -2 Con Max 16 (+3)

Ranger 10 max hit die 8 = 80 + 30 = 110hp

if you dumped both points into con 120, but you are 3 short of that. Which means you rolled max on at least 6 rolls and 7 on the other three.

Which is needless to say, not common.

He could have an amulet of Health giving more HP up to 30 extra
Tembomber
09-07-04, 06:47 PM Elf ranger level 11 60 hp's ... try elf rogue level 4 with 9 hps :) and going on till level 10 or 11 (I forget) with 30+ My friend was playing that rogue, and before that game we had decided that there would be no rerolls, second chances or whatnot. Boy, did he regret that after three level-ups and three consecutive 1's ... no con bonus :)
kaosluke
09-07-04, 10:23 PM How is that possible?

Elf -2 Con Max 16 (+3)

Ranger 10 max hit die 8 = 80 + 30 = 110hp

if you dumped both points into con 120, but you are 3 short of that. Which means you rolled max on at least 6 rolls and 7 on the other three.

Which is needless to say, not common.

we are actually playing with mostly 3rd editon rules so the hit die for a ranger is actually d10 not d8
Welcome
09-08-04, 06:03 AM Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark...
Think that's bad ? I had a level 12 Rogue/Fighter/Assassin with 14 CON ; she had 55 hp. Talk about bad rolls...
Old_One
09-08-04, 06:22 AM The barbarian becomes overpowered when he uses Poweratck and drinks potions of enlarge without thinking about his livver. But 55hp at lvl5 is nothing to be alarmed, my brother had a wild elf barbarian who had ~45hp at 3rd lvl (not sure if that included rage or not).
Elrana
09-08-04, 07:26 PM We always play max HP at first and max -2 from then on. YOu have the choice of rolling but onkly sorc's or wizards ever do. 75% chance of equal or better!

My elf wizard, bearing in mind I have rolled every HD instead of just taking the 2, at level seventeen works out to be averaging 2.6 HP a roll. Pretty spot on really.

But I do have a fourth level monk with 38!

:)
angryman
09-10-04, 11:01 AM your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp

My Dwarven Evoker/Elemental Savant had 95 HP at level 10. And that's without False Life. (He died because he ate one too many plot items. Stupid time-travelling Cthulian entitites. Stupid revenge. Grumble, grumble...)

(them) :88E: :88E: :88E: (me) :OMG!
angryman
09-10-04, 11:03 AM your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp

My Dwarven Evoker/Elemental Savant had 95 HP at level 10. And that's without False Life. (He died because he ate one too many plot items. Stupid time-travelling Cthulian entitites. Stupid revenge. Grumble, grumble...)

(them) :88E: :88E: :88E: (me) :bigeyes:
flex
09-11-04, 12:29 PM overpowered
my wizard had more hp at lvl 7, 57 hp, than that barbarian and my wizard does not even have toughness, although i is rather tough. in fact i got 1 hp less than the monk at my own lvl :)
but you cant say that he is powerfull just by looking at his hp

btw in case someone wonder i have con: 20 and int 19 at lvl 7
Kronk LaSworda
09-13-04, 02:03 PM I doubt he is overpowered.

thougness feat sucks

Agreed. Taking toughness twice, he missed out on power attack, cleave, weapon focus, dodge, iron will, improved initiative, and any number of feats that are MUCH better than a couple of extra hitpoints.

At low levels, that might let him take an extra hit. At higher levels, that 6 points is absolutely nothing when you are taking 15 points or more per hit.

Not over-powered.
Nagarhi
09-14-04, 03:49 AM Toughness by itself is wimpy, BUT it is a neccessary feat for a lot of other very nice feats. Also, in the campaign I play in, the DM allows a PC who chooses the Toughness feat to roll his HD twice, and to keep the better roll (as he is tougher..:)).

Just out of curiosity, how does your DM allow you to roll your Stats ? The group I play in rolls 3d6+6 five times (drop the lowest dice). The results are placed in order of rolling to Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. However, we are allowed to place an 18 on any one stat, that then bumps every other stat we rolled down a spot. Usually makes for very nice stats..:) Is funny how often someone still rolls sub-par when we start a new campaign though..lol
jorgediz
09-14-04, 07:28 AM In our group, we always use the max HP. So a fighter with Con 14 has 60 hp at 5th level, for example: (10+2) x5 = 60. I think that things as important as hit points shouldn't be rolled.

Then, about the example Windcruiser said, a barbarian with Con 14 at fourth level would have (12+2) x 4 = 56 hp. In my group, this would be very normal.
Elrana
09-14-04, 08:36 AM Maximised first level then max-2 from there in with the option to roll if you're feeling lucky. But usually only wizards and sorcerors do! I agree that HP are too important and potentially unbalancing to rely on one roll of a die. An unlucky barbarian, for example, can become an absolute waste of space if at fourth level he has, say 19, HP.

For stats we roll in several different ways depending on campaign. It varies from 5d6 six times take what you get for what is expected to be a long and serious campaign to 4d6 reroll 1s and 2s for less serious campaigns.

It doesn't really matter a huge amount as we always generate NPCs and bad guys the same way and by the same rules so it evens out.

:)
Sphyre
09-14-04, 06:41 PM Hp is totally relative. My Elan Telepath has 75 hp at level 12, (coulda been over 100 if i took psionic body) along with having resilience and vigor.... it's all about the con mod - not much about the HD. Besides - why shouldn't a barbarian have i higher hitdie than another class? At his level (4) the d12 only makes a difference of 5 hp on average compared to a fighter (2 at first level and 1 each level after that) It's all about the con mod.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grevious Windcruiser 09-06-04, 10:24 AM	A friend of mine plays a human babarian and at level four he has 55 hit points. I think he's a bit overpowered, but I could be wrong. (He has the Toughness feat twice.) What do you think?
Cyricist 09-06-04, 10:50 AM	Overpowered because of his hitpoints? Far from it. If he'd had that many hitpoints at level 5 without the toughness feats he still wouldn't be. In fact, he would have just rolled slightly above average (D12 plus con modifier, which is usually pretty high with barbarians).
anders 09-06-04, 10:58 AM	I doubt he is overpowered. thougness feat sucks
Kalanth 09-06-04, 11:22 AM	There is a nice Toughness feat in the CW, Improved toughness. This feat gives the character an extra HP per HD and is retroactive. But, having 55 HP at lvl 4 is not over powered. The only thing I have to ask is this, is your group giving maximum HP per lvl on purpose? Afterall, with no Con bonus, at lvl 4 the max is 48. That means that if you are not giving out max hp, you might wana say something to your DM.
Limit 09-06-04, 12:33 PM	There is a nice Toughness feat in the CW, Improved toughness. This feat gives the character an extra HP per HD and is retroactive. But, having 55 HP at lvl 4 is not over powered. The only thing I have to ask is this, is your group giving maximum HP per lvl on purpose? Afterall, with no Con bonus, at lvl 4 the max is 48. That means that if you are not giving out max hp, you might wana say something to your DM. Well, toughness twice gives you 6 HP, so he's at 49 with his con mod. 12 at first level means he got 37 from his other levels, plus conx4. He's human, so no mod to con, but he still could easily have a +3 mod, so 12 points takes his total for three levels down to 25. So he's really just a little bit above average (~19 in three levels) but nothing to become alarmed about. :) But really, to the original poster, I would venture to say that this character is underpowered. The Toughness feat is really weak in comparison to the feats that he could have taken instead.
Kalanth 09-06-04, 12:36 PM	Well, toughness twice gives you 6 HP, so he's at 49 with his con mod. 12 at first level means he got 37 from his other levels, plus conx4. He's human, so no mod to con, but he still could easily have a +3 mod, so 12 points takes his total for three levels down to 25. So he's really just a little bit above average (~19 in three levels) but nothing to become alarmed about. :) But really, to the original poster, I would venture to say that this character is underpowered. The Toughness feat is really weak in comparison to the feats that he could have taken instead. I give myself a collective slap on the forehead, I overlooked the toughness feat in my calculations.
kaosluke 09-06-04, 02:36 PM	our barbarian is at level 7 and has a 90 something he has a high con so that seems normal to me, our barb is a half-orc and his strength is a 20 cause he rolled an 18 and placed it in str
lotterybucks 09-06-04, 10:25 PM	4th level and toughness taken twice? I would say he is even a bit WEAK. Instead of getting those 6 extra hitpoints, an offensive/combat feat would've given him special abilities which would have dealt more damage, thus making him powerful. 55 hps is high, but not overpowering. Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark...
AvengedMutablegenus 09-06-04, 11:19 PM	Bah! What a waste! I currently have a 4th level barb with a huge con bonus and his hp is 53, and i didn't take toughness once...
Fern 09-06-04, 11:25 PM	Simple test: how many rounds would it take him to kill two or more creatures with CR = to his level. A) One, maybe two rounds per target. Barbarian takes minimal damage. B) I dunno, he might be able to. Depends on the creatures. C) You're kidding ... right? D) Do they fight back? Answers are as follows: A) Your campaign may eventually suffer from a Half-Celestial Lvl 24? (don't remember exactly, too traumatic) Barbarian / 10+ Frenzied Berserker Demigod w/ 2k+ hps. One who lugs around a sack of "circlets of 100 wishes" and uses them to threat crits. Recommendations: Immediate termination of player. Extreme measures approved. B) He's a Barbarian, it happens once in a while. Recommendations: Use him as a shield. Duh. ;) C) He's quite safe. Recommendations: Don't take toughness, ever. Dragon's Toughness so much better. :angel: D) Need I say more? :D ~Fern
Kalanth 09-07-04, 12:55 AM	Dragon's Toughness so much better. :angel: Have not looked it up in ages, might not remember exactly, but isn't toughness a requiremnet for Dragon toughness? Still, everyone is right, toughness was a waisted feat for this guy, almost as bad as things like Iron Will and such. Those little boosts are just not as necessary as maybe a power attack, cleave and great cleave, and so on. More combat skills would be good for the barbarian, and less hit point improvements. However, its that guys character, and they can make as many bad choices as they want. I think I will stick to making my archers that can kill in one round (when the optional triple threat to kill rule is in effect).
kaosluke 09-07-04, 10:21 AM	Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark... your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp
starfire311 09-07-04, 11:14 AM	Bah! What a waste! I currently have a 4th level barb with a huge con bonus and his hp is 53, and i didn't take toughness once... Exactly my Dwarven barbarian 3/Fighter 1 had 52 without a tougness feat and a Con of 18(Rolled 7+4(Fighter Level), 12+4, 5+4)... I level up yesterday and now I am Barbarian 4/ Fighter 1 and I rolled a 7 on D12 and now I have 63 HP at 5th level. My feats are Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Weapon Focus(Great Sword), All of which are way better than Toughness... Although I am considoring Improved toughness now. I know Imp. Unarmed strike is a little wierd, but I really want to try out reaping mauler.
Fern 09-07-04, 04:34 PM	Have not looked it up in ages, might not remember exactly, but isn't toughness a requiremnet for Dragon toughness? Think it just requires high base fort save, might be wrong though, loned all my books to my friends when they left for college.
jnrhayz 09-07-04, 05:06 PM	kaosluke Quote: Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark... your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp How is that possible? Elf -2 Con Max 16 (+3) Ranger 10 max hit die 8 = 80 + 30 = 110hp if you dumped both points into con 120, but you are 3 short of that. Which means you rolled max on at least 6 rolls and 7 on the other three. Which is needless to say, not common.
starfire311 09-07-04, 06:00 PM	How is that possible? Elf -2 Con Max 16 (+3) Ranger 10 max hit die 8 = 80 + 30 = 110hp if you dumped both points into con 120, but you are 3 short of that. Which means you rolled max on at least 6 rolls and 7 on the other three. Which is needless to say, not common. He could have an amulet of Health giving more HP up to 30 extra
Tembomber 09-07-04, 06:47 PM	Elf ranger level 11 60 hp's ... try elf rogue level 4 with 9 hps :) and going on till level 10 or 11 (I forget) with 30+ My friend was playing that rogue, and before that game we had decided that there would be no rerolls, second chances or whatnot. Boy, did he regret that after three level-ups and three consecutive 1's ... no con bonus :)
kaosluke 09-07-04, 10:23 PM	How is that possible? Elf -2 Con Max 16 (+3) Ranger 10 max hit die 8 = 80 + 30 = 110hp if you dumped both points into con 120, but you are 3 short of that. Which means you rolled max on at least 6 rolls and 7 on the other three. Which is needless to say, not common. we are actually playing with mostly 3rd editon rules so the hit die for a ranger is actually d10 not d8
Welcome 09-08-04, 06:03 AM	Then again, it took my elf wimp ranger about 11 levels to get past the 60 mark... Think that's bad ? I had a level 12 Rogue/Fighter/Assassin with 14 CON ; she had 55 hp. Talk about bad rolls...
Old_One 09-08-04, 06:22 AM	The barbarian becomes overpowered when he uses Poweratck and drinks potions of enlarge without thinking about his livver. But 55hp at lvl5 is nothing to be alarmed, my brother had a wild elf barbarian who had ~45hp at 3rd lvl (not sure if that included rage or not).
Elrana 09-08-04, 07:26 PM	We always play max HP at first and max -2 from then on. YOu have the choice of rolling but onkly sorc's or wizards ever do. 75% chance of equal or better! My elf wizard, bearing in mind I have rolled every HD instead of just taking the 2, at level seventeen works out to be averaging 2.6 HP a roll. Pretty spot on really. But I do have a fourth level monk with 38! :)
angryman 09-10-04, 11:01 AM	your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp My Dwarven Evoker/Elemental Savant had 95 HP at level 10. And that's without False Life. (He died because he ate one too many plot items. Stupid time-travelling Cthulian entitites. Stupid revenge. Grumble, grumble...) (them) :88E: :88E: :88E: (me) :OMG!
angryman 09-10-04, 11:03 AM	your ranger is kinda wimpy my elven ranger is at tenth level and has 117 hp My Dwarven Evoker/Elemental Savant had 95 HP at level 10. And that's without False Life. (He died because he ate one too many plot items. Stupid time-travelling Cthulian entitites. Stupid revenge. Grumble, grumble...) (them) :88E: :88E: :88E: (me) :bigeyes:
flex 09-11-04, 12:29 PM	overpowered my wizard had more hp at lvl 7, 57 hp, than that barbarian and my wizard does not even have toughness, although i is rather tough. in fact i got 1 hp less than the monk at my own lvl :) but you cant say that he is powerfull just by looking at his hp btw in case someone wonder i have con: 20 and int 19 at lvl 7
Kronk LaSworda 09-13-04, 02:03 PM	I doubt he is overpowered. thougness feat sucks Agreed. Taking toughness twice, he missed out on power attack, cleave, weapon focus, dodge, iron will, improved initiative, and any number of feats that are MUCH better than a couple of extra hitpoints. At low levels, that might let him take an extra hit. At higher levels, that 6 points is absolutely nothing when you are taking 15 points or more per hit. Not over-powered.
Nagarhi 09-14-04, 03:49 AM	Toughness by itself is wimpy, BUT it is a neccessary feat for a lot of other very nice feats. Also, in the campaign I play in, the DM allows a PC who chooses the Toughness feat to roll his HD twice, and to keep the better roll (as he is tougher..:)). Just out of curiosity, how does your DM allow you to roll your Stats ? The group I play in rolls 3d6+6 five times (drop the lowest dice). The results are placed in order of rolling to Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. However, we are allowed to place an 18 on any one stat, that then bumps every other stat we rolled down a spot. Usually makes for very nice stats..:) Is funny how often someone still rolls sub-par when we start a new campaign though..lol
jorgediz 09-14-04, 07:28 AM	In our group, we always use the max HP. So a fighter with Con 14 has 60 hp at 5th level, for example: (10+2) x5 = 60. I think that things as important as hit points shouldn't be rolled. Then, about the example Windcruiser said, a barbarian with Con 14 at fourth level would have (12+2) x 4 = 56 hp. In my group, this would be very normal.
Elrana 09-14-04, 08:36 AM	Maximised first level then max-2 from there in with the option to roll if you're feeling lucky. But usually only wizards and sorcerors do! I agree that HP are too important and potentially unbalancing to rely on one roll of a die. An unlucky barbarian, for example, can become an absolute waste of space if at fourth level he has, say 19, HP. For stats we roll in several different ways depending on campaign. It varies from 5d6 six times take what you get for what is expected to be a long and serious campaign to 4d6 reroll 1s and 2s for less serious campaigns. It doesn't really matter a huge amount as we always generate NPCs and bad guys the same way and by the same rules so it evens out. :)
Sphyre 09-14-04, 06:41 PM	Hp is totally relative. My Elan Telepath has 75 hp at level 12, (coulda been over 100 if i took psionic body) along with having resilience and vigor.... it's all about the con mod - not much about the HD. Besides - why shouldn't a barbarian have i higher hitdie than another class? At his level (4) the d12 only makes a difference of 5 hp on average compared to a fighter (2 at first level and 1 each level after that) It's all about the con mod.