Is this charm person abuse? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this charm person abuse? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
northern_bear
06-15-07, 07:45 AM I think that this situation is pushing the limits of what a charmed person will do. Do people agree?

We're 4 PCs in the party. Some of them I like, some of them I don't like too much. But we're all on the same team. We have sworn an oath of service to a powerful wizard (and I'm lawful). This wizard has treated us extremely well, but has made it clear that if we betray him he will kill us. The wizard has sent us on an important mission to deliver a package for him.

An NPC has joined us and charmed my character. We are in an extremely hostile environment.

During the night, the NPC tries to convince me to help him steal EVERYTHING that the party owns, including several powerful magic items, and the package that the wizard asked us to deliver.

If I go along with it:

-I'm betraying several close friends, and leaving them alone and protectionless in a hostile environment, essentially leaving them to their deaths.
-I'm going back on an oath I've sworn to uphold.
-I'm betraying someone who has promised to kill me if I betray him, a promise I'm sure he has the power to keep.

I think this is masively pushing the bounds of what charm person can achieve. Charm person only means that I think the NPC is my friend. It doesn't mean that I forget my alignment, forget all my other friends, or become a suicidal idiot. I think that the second the NPC asks me to do this stuff, it should cause the spell to instantly terminate.

What are your thoughts?
BaelinWhale
06-15-07, 07:57 AM Yup. That's pretty much over the limit of what charm person can do. Note that charm person is an enchantment (charm) spell, not a compulsion. All it does is make you regard the caster in the best possible light, almost to the point of infatuation ("I want his babies!!!").

In this situation, you'd regard both the caster and your companions as friends, although the spell would probably make you regard the caster more favorably. Charm Person is a very RP intensive spell, so how it plays out is pretty much dependent on you. If you were already entertaining notions of running off with the loot, the spell would help push you in that direction but the choice is entirely yours.

Also, since making suggestions isn't usually considered 'threatening', the spell won't really terminate but you'd feel stupid or betrayed by his suggestion, just as how you'd feel if your best friend asked you to go and do something stupid that you know you'll really regret.
Light_Colonel
06-15-07, 08:01 AM This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

I would say it depends on how he is telling you to do it. It is roleplaying at that point.

If he says that he wants to take all the magic items and teleport back to his keep, so he can enchant all the items and make them better for the party... well hey he is your best friend. Why would he lie to you? ;)

On the other hand, if he actually said "steal"... then you could tell him to get bent. However you would still be charmed. I would say though that you would wake someone else up at that point. After all, your best friend (Mr. Charm) is trying to steal your other friend's (the party) stuff.
Father Dale
06-15-07, 09:34 AM Charm Person changes the target to 'friendly' not 'helpful.' (At least as far as NPCs go.) Given what you've described, and the way things normally work, a charmed PC still would consider his adventuring party as 'helpful' (for the most part), so the Charm won't make the target like the caster more than his closest allies.

In the situation you described, I would probably end up trying to dissuade the charmer from the course of action hes describing. It would be harmful to you and him to go through with it, and it would harm your friends and allies as well.

I mean, if your best friend says, "Hey, lets go steal some money from Mr. Corleone" you would probably try to talk him out of it, no?
trapspringer
06-15-07, 07:51 PM This is why that bull **** shouldn't be used on characters. It sucks.
Bob Loblaw
06-15-07, 08:18 PM Ask yourself this question: If my best friend in the whole wide world wanted to betray all my other friends to the point where his actions would knowingly get them killed, what would I do?

I know that I would try to stop him. I wouldn't want my friend to get my other friends killed. I would have no problem turning him in. Being a lawful person, I know that sometimes people need to be taught that their actions are wrong. If that means that my best friend spends some time in the slammer, then that's good for him.

For the record, I have turned my close friends in for committing felonies. Misdemeanors, no, felonies, yes. I don't lie to the authorities about the misdemeanors if asked. I just don't offer information either.
trapspringer
06-15-07, 09:08 PM For the record, I have turned my close friends in for committing felonies. Misdemeanors, no, felonies, yes. I don't lie to the authorities about the misdemeanors if asked. I just don't offer information either.

Wow. Remind me not to hang out with you....

I dunno, maybe you're in a different situation (as a person who is or pretends at being in law enforcement), but generally speaking a harmless "crime" should be lied about.

The problem with Law is it doesn't assess circumstances. Once set in motion, it is a cold calculation of actions and consequences. If a "crime" were actually and in every instance a real, honest-to-God crime, I wouldn't be lying for a friend, I would be telling the truth about a person I had misjudged and whatever consequences befall him, so be it. It'd take something a lot worse than some guy smoking a J or lifting a snickers, though.

It's entirely possible to phrase this plan in such a way that it isn't a crime at all. That's why I'm stickin' to my "the DM's a putz" gun on this one.
Kaldric
06-15-07, 09:23 PM If the NPC orders you to do something you wouldn't normally do, you make opposed charisma checks, according to the spell description.

If he takes an action that threatens you or your allies, the spell is broken. Ordering you to steal from your allies could easily be interpreted as a threatening action.

If he's charmed you, you trust him and regard him as a friend. You do not stop trusting your other friends. He's not your best friend in the world. He cannot make you obey obviously harmful orders, or suicidal orders. If your character believes that his orders will get you killed, and you specifically stated that this is EXACTLY what your character believes, then you won't do what he says.
Bob Loblaw
06-15-07, 09:33 PM Wow. Remind me not to hang out with you....

I dunno, maybe you're in a different situation (as a person who is or pretends at being in law enforcement), but generally speaking a harmless "crime" should be lied about.

The problem with Law is it doesn't assess circumstances. Once set in motion, it is a cold calculation of actions and consequences. If a "crime" were actually and in every instance a real, honest-to-God crime, I wouldn't be lying for a friend, I would be telling the truth about a person I had misjudged and whatever consequences befall him, so be it. It'd take something a lot worse than some guy smoking a J or lifting a snickers, though.

It's entirely possible to phrase this plan in such a way that it isn't a crime at all. That's why I'm stickin' to my "the DM's a putz" gun on this one.
You'll notice that I did say felonies and not misdemeanors. I had a few friends who thought it would be cool to sneak into a school and steal the computers (this was back in high school). I turned them in. I told them that it was wrong beforehand and they shouldn't do it. I also turned in a friend who had stolen a car while drunk. These are inexcusable. As their friend, I should do what I can to help them. In these cases, help doesn't mean to help them get away with the crime, but to help them realize that there are actual consequences to these crimes.

I have not turned in my friends who toke a little or drink a bit even though they are only 18. I haven't turned in my friends who jaywalk or run a red light, especially when no one is around. If asked by the authorities while they are actually investigating, I wouldn't lie to them. I just won't offer information.

You are right that the DM is being a putz on this one. He is using the spell to railroad the party and forcing one of the PCs to act against his nature.
BW0222
06-16-07, 06:45 AM northern_bear,

The spell description covers this.

"The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and action in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but ..."

You normally wouldn't steal from your friends or break your oath, so that would be an opposed charisma check.

However, such an action is also likely harmful and possibly suicidal. Harmful because (unless you are a master thief) there is a good chance you'll be caught and hurt by your friends, or that the wizard has a good chance of tracking you down. It is also likely suicidal since you believe that the wizard would kill you. So, no dice on that command.

Now, if he had a really good plan in which you would almost certainly get away with it (i.e. he could convince you that the wizard was dead, or leave you behind so you could claim to be robbed also) then maybe it wouldn't be harmful or suicidal and he could try an opposed charisma check.
SirTodd
06-16-07, 09:15 AM Remember the main point, listed by reference right in the spell. It makes the target friendly not helpful. Friendly people will NOT take risks to help you. So in order for him to get that opposed Cha check, the actions must involve NO risk (or no additional risk, if your already risking yourself) on your part.

This involves massive risk on your part. So it automatically fails. The spell doesn't end yet however. Remember you view his words in the best light. Perhaps you respond to it like he is clearly joking. Or if it seems sincere you would offer advice on why not to go through with something like that.

For example, with a cha check you could get a lawful character to take a chaotic action with the spell. But only if there were no risks involved. You could get a good person to take a good action without even rolling, again if no additional risk is involved.
IceFractal
06-16-07, 09:43 AM This would definitely go beyond what Charm Person is capable of, falling more in the realm of Dominate Person. Now while this wouldn't cause the spell to end, there's is one thing you can do.

Did the NPC specifically tell you not to tell anyone else? If not, then it's time to have an intervention - get your old friends and your new "friend" together, and try to figure out why the hostility between them. Ask the NPC, while everyone is together, why he wanted you to take all their stuff - were they hostile to him? After all, you don't want your friends at each-other's throats.

And then remember that you urgently have to do something which will take you out of earshot of the entire situation. After all, helping one side or the other would be a conflict of interest. When you get back, you may find that your new "friend" seems to have abruptly left. :devil:
Optimized_Commoner
06-16-07, 12:45 PM This wouldn't be a problem if the author hadn't been exceptionally drunk while writing the spell description (or so I assume since that would explain how truly awful it is).

Common sense tells people, "This is a first level spell and should be significantly weaker than a fifth level spell like Dominate Person."

Unfortunately some people ignore common sense and say, "but it says with a charisma check I can tell them to do anything that isn't harmful or suicidal".

This is why games have DMs, to provide common sense interpretations of the rules.

Unfortunately if the DM is bad, then this doesn't help matters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
northern_bear 06-15-07, 07:45 AM	I think that this situation is pushing the limits of what a charmed person will do. Do people agree? We're 4 PCs in the party. Some of them I like, some of them I don't like too much. But we're all on the same team. We have sworn an oath of service to a powerful wizard (and I'm lawful). This wizard has treated us extremely well, but has made it clear that if we betray him he will kill us. The wizard has sent us on an important mission to deliver a package for him. An NPC has joined us and charmed my character. We are in an extremely hostile environment. During the night, the NPC tries to convince me to help him steal EVERYTHING that the party owns, including several powerful magic items, and the package that the wizard asked us to deliver. If I go along with it: -I'm betraying several close friends, and leaving them alone and protectionless in a hostile environment, essentially leaving them to their deaths. -I'm going back on an oath I've sworn to uphold. -I'm betraying someone who has promised to kill me if I betray him, a promise I'm sure he has the power to keep. I think this is masively pushing the bounds of what charm person can achieve. Charm person only means that I think the NPC is my friend. It doesn't mean that I forget my alignment, forget all my other friends, or become a suicidal idiot. I think that the second the NPC asks me to do this stuff, it should cause the spell to instantly terminate. What are your thoughts?
BaelinWhale 06-15-07, 07:57 AM	Yup. That's pretty much over the limit of what charm person can do. Note that charm person is an enchantment (charm) spell, not a compulsion. All it does is make you regard the caster in the best possible light, almost to the point of infatuation ("I want his babies!!!"). In this situation, you'd regard both the caster and your companions as friends, although the spell would probably make you regard the caster more favorably. Charm Person is a very RP intensive spell, so how it plays out is pretty much dependent on you. If you were already entertaining notions of running off with the loot, the spell would help push you in that direction but the choice is entirely yours. Also, since making suggestions isn't usually considered 'threatening', the spell won't really terminate but you'd feel stupid or betrayed by his suggestion, just as how you'd feel if your best friend asked you to go and do something stupid that you know you'll really regret.
Light_Colonel 06-15-07, 08:01 AM	This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw. The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. I would say it depends on how he is telling you to do it. It is roleplaying at that point. If he says that he wants to take all the magic items and teleport back to his keep, so he can enchant all the items and make them better for the party... well hey he is your best friend. Why would he lie to you? ;) On the other hand, if he actually said "steal"... then you could tell him to get bent. However you would still be charmed. I would say though that you would wake someone else up at that point. After all, your best friend (Mr. Charm) is trying to steal your other friend's (the party) stuff.
Father Dale 06-15-07, 09:34 AM	Charm Person changes the target to 'friendly' not 'helpful.' (At least as far as NPCs go.) Given what you've described, and the way things normally work, a charmed PC still would consider his adventuring party as 'helpful' (for the most part), so the Charm won't make the target like the caster more than his closest allies. In the situation you described, I would probably end up trying to dissuade the charmer from the course of action hes describing. It would be harmful to you and him to go through with it, and it would harm your friends and allies as well. I mean, if your best friend says, "Hey, lets go steal some money from Mr. Corleone" you would probably try to talk him out of it, no?
trapspringer 06-15-07, 07:51 PM	This is why that bull **** shouldn't be used on characters. It sucks.
Bob Loblaw 06-15-07, 08:18 PM	Ask yourself this question: If my best friend in the whole wide world wanted to betray all my other friends to the point where his actions would knowingly get them killed, what would I do? I know that I would try to stop him. I wouldn't want my friend to get my other friends killed. I would have no problem turning him in. Being a lawful person, I know that sometimes people need to be taught that their actions are wrong. If that means that my best friend spends some time in the slammer, then that's good for him. For the record, I have turned my close friends in for committing felonies. Misdemeanors, no, felonies, yes. I don't lie to the authorities about the misdemeanors if asked. I just don't offer information either.
trapspringer 06-15-07, 09:08 PM	For the record, I have turned my close friends in for committing felonies. Misdemeanors, no, felonies, yes. I don't lie to the authorities about the misdemeanors if asked. I just don't offer information either. Wow. Remind me not to hang out with you.... I dunno, maybe you're in a different situation (as a person who is or pretends at being in law enforcement), but generally speaking a harmless "crime" should be lied about. The problem with Law is it doesn't assess circumstances. Once set in motion, it is a cold calculation of actions and consequences. If a "crime" were actually and in every instance a real, honest-to-God crime, I wouldn't be lying for a friend, I would be telling the truth about a person I had misjudged and whatever consequences befall him, so be it. It'd take something a lot worse than some guy smoking a J or lifting a snickers, though. It's entirely possible to phrase this plan in such a way that it isn't a crime at all. That's why I'm stickin' to my "the DM's a putz" gun on this one.
Kaldric 06-15-07, 09:23 PM	If the NPC orders you to do something you wouldn't normally do, you make opposed charisma checks, according to the spell description. If he takes an action that threatens you or your allies, the spell is broken. Ordering you to steal from your allies could easily be interpreted as a threatening action. If he's charmed you, you trust him and regard him as a friend. You do not stop trusting your other friends. He's not your best friend in the world. He cannot make you obey obviously harmful orders, or suicidal orders. If your character believes that his orders will get you killed, and you specifically stated that this is EXACTLY what your character believes, then you won't do what he says.
Bob Loblaw 06-15-07, 09:33 PM	Wow. Remind me not to hang out with you.... I dunno, maybe you're in a different situation (as a person who is or pretends at being in law enforcement), but generally speaking a harmless "crime" should be lied about. The problem with Law is it doesn't assess circumstances. Once set in motion, it is a cold calculation of actions and consequences. If a "crime" were actually and in every instance a real, honest-to-God crime, I wouldn't be lying for a friend, I would be telling the truth about a person I had misjudged and whatever consequences befall him, so be it. It'd take something a lot worse than some guy smoking a J or lifting a snickers, though. It's entirely possible to phrase this plan in such a way that it isn't a crime at all. That's why I'm stickin' to my "the DM's a putz" gun on this one. You'll notice that I did say felonies and not misdemeanors. I had a few friends who thought it would be cool to sneak into a school and steal the computers (this was back in high school). I turned them in. I told them that it was wrong beforehand and they shouldn't do it. I also turned in a friend who had stolen a car while drunk. These are inexcusable. As their friend, I should do what I can to help them. In these cases, help doesn't mean to help them get away with the crime, but to help them realize that there are actual consequences to these crimes. I have not turned in my friends who toke a little or drink a bit even though they are only 18. I haven't turned in my friends who jaywalk or run a red light, especially when no one is around. If asked by the authorities while they are actually investigating, I wouldn't lie to them. I just won't offer information. You are right that the DM is being a putz on this one. He is using the spell to railroad the party and forcing one of the PCs to act against his nature.
BW0222 06-16-07, 06:45 AM	northern_bear, The spell description covers this. "The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and action in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but ..." You normally wouldn't steal from your friends or break your oath, so that would be an opposed charisma check. However, such an action is also likely harmful and possibly suicidal. Harmful because (unless you are a master thief) there is a good chance you'll be caught and hurt by your friends, or that the wizard has a good chance of tracking you down. It is also likely suicidal since you believe that the wizard would kill you. So, no dice on that command. Now, if he had a really good plan in which you would almost certainly get away with it (i.e. he could convince you that the wizard was dead, or leave you behind so you could claim to be robbed also) then maybe it wouldn't be harmful or suicidal and he could try an opposed charisma check.
SirTodd 06-16-07, 09:15 AM	Remember the main point, listed by reference right in the spell. It makes the target friendly not helpful. Friendly people will NOT take risks to help you. So in order for him to get that opposed Cha check, the actions must involve NO risk (or no additional risk, if your already risking yourself) on your part. This involves massive risk on your part. So it automatically fails. The spell doesn't end yet however. Remember you view his words in the best light. Perhaps you respond to it like he is clearly joking. Or if it seems sincere you would offer advice on why not to go through with something like that. For example, with a cha check you could get a lawful character to take a chaotic action with the spell. But only if there were no risks involved. You could get a good person to take a good action without even rolling, again if no additional risk is involved.
IceFractal 06-16-07, 09:43 AM	This would definitely go beyond what Charm Person is capable of, falling more in the realm of Dominate Person. Now while this wouldn't cause the spell to end, there's is one thing you can do. Did the NPC specifically tell you not to tell anyone else? If not, then it's time to have an intervention - get your old friends and your new "friend" together, and try to figure out why the hostility between them. Ask the NPC, while everyone is together, why he wanted you to take all their stuff - were they hostile to him? After all, you don't want your friends at each-other's throats. And then remember that you urgently have to do something which will take you out of earshot of the entire situation. After all, helping one side or the other would be a conflict of interest. When you get back, you may find that your new "friend" seems to have abruptly left. :devil:
Optimized_Commoner 06-16-07, 12:45 PM	This wouldn't be a problem if the author hadn't been exceptionally drunk while writing the spell description (or so I assume since that would explain how truly awful it is). Common sense tells people, "This is a first level spell and should be significantly weaker than a fifth level spell like Dominate Person." Unfortunately some people ignore common sense and say, "but it says with a charisma check I can tell them to do anything that isn't harmful or suicidal". This is why games have DMs, to provide common sense interpretations of the rules. Unfortunately if the DM is bad, then this doesn't help matters.