Is this DM abusing his power? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this DM abusing his power? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zandrox
02-16-07, 11:04 AM I was playing D&D with some friends last night and we were in the city of Westgate. I was kind of bored as was my other friend so I said "I go to the nearest bar. Then I find the biggest guy and start a fight with him" So my friend who is a half orc frenzied berserker and I go to the nearest bar and as we had planned I find the biggest thing in the bar and get it to attack me. Our DM decided that the biggest thing in the bar was a Storm Giant... CR13, so my character ended up getting killed (I had a new character in reserve to use) and the frenzied berserker almost died. We ended up being able to kill the Storm Giant when my new character jumped into the fight, but does it make sense that there was a Storm Giant in the bar? or is the DM abusing his power.

EDIT: I made a second post that said this, but we did ask what the biggest thing in the bar was before attacking it, he said it was a half ogre. Also we didn't throw the first punch, I just provoked it into attacking me, yelled at it for bumping into me. After we attacked he decided to make it a storm giant and use the book stats but give it 300hp instead of 199 average as in the book. We weren't trying to steal the spotlight, there were only 3 of us playing that night and one of the party was trying to decide on a piece of gear to buy and had been doing so for 15 mins (reading through all the books to find something cool etc.), so we decided to entertain ourselves. We are all chaotic evil so doing random acts of violence in a town is something we have done in many areas, also in the town we are in the DM made a princess who we have done a number of quests for which basically gives protection as she will pardon us for randomly attacking people, or give us a difficult quest. Again, we did not attack the storm giant, merely provoked it so it would attack us.
The White Sorcerer
02-16-07, 11:10 AM Just how big was the bar? Unless it actually is big enough to accomodate Huge creatures, the DM was being a jerk.
stabs
02-16-07, 11:11 AM It's not impossible for a Storm Giant to be in a bar (if he can fit through the door). But yes, it would be very very unusual. But hey, that's what the Forgotten Realms (and Waterdeep especially) is for; the unlikely happening.

Now, the real question to determine DM assery...

Did your DM explain that the biggest thing in the bar was the Storm Giant and you then proceeded to get into a fight?

Or did your DM say "Okay, the biggest thing in the bar is a Storm Giant. And you just attacked it."
zioth
02-16-07, 11:12 AM Uh... Hm... Um... Is this post a joke? Are these players above the age of ten?

Maybe you should have asked what the biggest thing in the bar was before starting a fight with it.

Maybe you shouldn't be starting life-and-death fights at random with peaceful citizens.

Maybe your characters should be given the death penalty for murdering a bar patron without provocation.

Maybe you're intentionally trying to make a mess up the DM's campaign, so he decided to teach you a lesson.
Zandrox
02-16-07, 11:16 AM It seemed to be a standard size bar from the description, I looked in the monster manual after the fight and saw the CR13 and that the storm giant is 20 feet tall and 12,000 pounds on average. Our characters were both level 11, we also didn't get much in terms of treasure/gold we were given 10 pearls (100gp each) and 1000 gp in total, which seems kinda low compared with what our dm has been giving us.

EDIT:
Our characters are also chaotic evil so this is the type of thing we would do, and he said the biggest thing in the bar was a half ogre initially, then after it attacked me he said actually its a storm giant. And also the npc was provoked into attacking us.
ElHiggz
02-16-07, 11:17 AM He's not abusing his power so much as being a jerk. Abusing his power would be fixing rolls and such without you knowing.

Maybe you should've asked what the biggest thing in the tavern was before attacking it, eh?
Boraxe
02-16-07, 11:20 AM No, the DM was using his discretion to punish you for selfishly trying to steal the spotlight in a really foolish and stupid manner. It was kind of a jerky way to do it, though.

Personally, I'd have had both PCs exectued for murder if they'd survived the fight.

Oh, and "chaotic evil" does not mean "psychotic jerkwad." Just FYI.

All IMO of course.
stabs
02-16-07, 11:22 AM Your DM can describe a Storm Giant however he or she wants. If it's depicted as a half ogre but uses storm giant stats, nothing wrong with that. Maybe it was hunched over, or made a disguise check.

I think the real answer is start playing Chaotic Evil and stop playing Stupid Stupid.
tiamot
02-16-07, 12:39 PM Given that your DM reneged and changed the 'biggest thing' from a half-ogre to a storm giant, I would say that he's not necessarily abusing his power, but just being an unfair jerk. You'd do well to just let it rest and remember to watch yourself next time, however I would approach the DM as a group and say something like, "What happened is all done and over, and we're willing to move on, but it was really unfair of you to tell us one thing and then up and change it after the fact."
DrakePD
02-16-07, 01:28 PM Some time when PC's try to "invent" things to do, the DM will ad lib the situation and alot of times can get carried away.

The DM might have first thought you guys were going to just get into a bar brawl and do some sub duel damage to some 1/2 witted 1/2 Ogre (No Offence). Things turned ugly and he changed things to teach you a lesson? We cannot say for sure, because we do not know what the DM had in mind.

Is this DM abusing his power? I say no. Was he upset at what the players were doing? I say yes.

Sometimes as a DM it is hard not having your emotions vent through the monsters and NPC in the game. The DM is only limited to his imagination and experience.

IMO you ticked off your DM and he smashed your face in for it, and you let him. (Fleeing is always an option, I am sure there are many places in Westgate were a Storm Giant can't fit into)

I am not saying that this is right, but it does happen.
FeceMan
02-16-07, 02:15 PM Generally, when one asks this question, the answer is "yes."
Kursk
02-16-07, 04:08 PM Too funny! A Storm Giant at the local bar. My advice? Find a DM who knows how to DM
Boraxe
02-16-07, 04:28 PM Too funny! A Storm Giant at the local bar. My advice? Find a DM who knows how to DM

In my game world it is not unknown for particularly wealth caravans to hire giants and other tough hombres as guards, and what's a fella - giant or otherwise - to do once they hit town but head down to the local and quaff a few gallons of ale before heading out again the next morning?

There is nothing wrong with a giant in the local bar, it just depends on where that local happens to be located. :)
Templetroll
02-16-07, 05:12 PM His changing the half-ogre into a storm giant was no worse than your new character 'just happens' to be in the same bar and 'just happens' to decide to jump in on the fight against the storm giant that just killed some guy. :)
Bopple
02-16-07, 10:04 PM Well, it seems like birds of a feather, to me.
Elsydeon
02-17-07, 01:36 AM Too funny! A Storm Giant at the local bar. My advice? Find a DM who knows how to DM

Your implication that the player isn't also clueless offends me deeply.
johnkretzer
02-17-07, 05:01 AM Yes he abused his power....but then again maybe he was sick of RPing scenes where you guys beet up some guy in a bar so he wanted to throw you a curve ball.

Also what the use of having power if you can't abuse it once in a while? Just kidding, but only a little :evillaugh
kelvinaw273
02-17-07, 06:59 AM Well I think you will find that his point was that if you want to go around picking fights with random strangers then sooner or later you might bite off more than you can chew. I must admit I would quickly tire of having to constantly pull up stats out of a hat just for the PCs to stomp all over because they get bored when they haven't killed something for 15 minutes.
DoctorRomulus
02-17-07, 09:33 AM Stop yer cryin.

Waa waa waa someone call a Wambulance.

Look.
You went looking for trouble and found it. Why was your character looking to start a fight with the biggest thing in the bar anyway?

Next time around you'll use your head and not be so silly.

So quit your whining, generate a new character, and the DM was well within his "power" to let this happen to you.
Ardan The Avenger
02-17-07, 09:54 AM If your DM did change a half-ogre into a storm giant "to teach you a lesson" (paraphrase), that's being a jerk and abusing his power.

There are so many legitimate ways to beat the crap out of PCs who go into bars to pick fights that resorting to such tactics is strictly amateur night at best.
Issabella
02-17-07, 10:02 AM thank god the Tarraque was not sitting down on the bar for a drink when you declared you where attacking the most powerful thing there!
The White Sorcerer
02-17-07, 10:33 AM There are so many legitimate ways to beat the crap out of PCs who go into bars to pick fights that resorting to such tactics is strictly amateur night at best.

Yup. He should've let the PCs beat the half-ogre, and then proceeded to kick their butts with a 20th-level kobold monk.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
02-17-07, 10:35 AM Well you did say the "biggest" thing in the bar. I would hope that a storm giant is the biggist thing in the bar. Must have really lofty ceilings.

But was this an abuse of power? Well lets see, you asked to fight to the biggest thing in the bar. It happened to be a storm giant that looked like a half orger. Your 11th level, it was CR 13, hell we'll give +1 becuase it looked different. Cr 14, only 3 higher then you, not unreasonable.

It matters not that it through the first blow, you pravoked it. You could have avoided the whole thing, not being an asshat.

So the DM got tired of you playing the town bully. And chance cuaght up with you. Get over it, and maybe next time you won't be so moronic. Me, I would have kept it a have orger, with 5 levels of monk, and 4 levels of paladin. Ggiven it improved disarm to beat your sorry but with your own weapon. And also would have let it have improved natural attack feat as well. Then after it subduelly curples you like a foam cup, it huals you off to the magistriaght for a fair trial. Were your found guilty of attempted murder, bar full of whitnesses, and summarily executed. On the way to the execution grounds, kids would mock you and poeple would throw vegetables at you. Your head would then be displayed at the town gates as warning to all. Your body would thrown on the refuse heap like the garbage it is.

Yaa bad things happen when you play choatic unnessesary, or stupid eveil in my games.
DoctorRomulus
02-17-07, 10:51 AM And yes I've played chaotic stupid in some games where I decided to shake things up a bit by starting trouble with the locals. But when and if thing turned and I got my character mangled or killed i didn't go off somewhere saying, "waa waa waaa, the DM is unfair, waa waa waa".

I took my comuppance like a man as the smiling DM handed me a new character sheet. BTW, a good DM can salvage any campaign.
Serrin
02-17-07, 08:31 PM I took my comuppance like a man as the smiling DM handed me a new character sheet. BTW, a good DM can salvage any campaign.

Sounds like he'll need a good DM to salvage this game.

If he wanted to teach you a lesson, OP, there are about a million legit ways he could have done it, but instead he resorted to pulling ridiculousness out of his hat.
ravenshrike
02-19-07, 01:21 PM But was this an abuse of power? Well lets see, you asked to fight to the biggest thing in the bar. It happened to be a storm giant that looked like a half orger. Your 11th level, it was CR 13, hell we'll give +1 becuase it looked different. Cr 14, only 3 higher then you, not unreasonable.

The CR system assumes a 4 person party. It was only 2 of them. Or 2.5 is you count the jumping in of his next character.
Dag
02-19-07, 02:15 PM Sounds like you, your friend, the DM, the Storm giant in the bar, the half ogre sitting on the stool to the left of the storm giant, and your back-up character sitting on the stool to the right of the storm giant all deserve each other. You guys should sell tickets to your game, I haven't laughed this hard at something posted here in a while.
Kursk
02-19-07, 03:29 PM The CR system assumes a 4 person party. It was only 2 of them. Or 2.5 is you count the jumping in of his next character.

The CR systems also assumes that the PC's aren't semi-suicidal or just plain dumb as a post.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zandrox 02-16-07, 11:04 AM	I was playing D&D with some friends last night and we were in the city of Westgate. I was kind of bored as was my other friend so I said "I go to the nearest bar. Then I find the biggest guy and start a fight with him" So my friend who is a half orc frenzied berserker and I go to the nearest bar and as we had planned I find the biggest thing in the bar and get it to attack me. Our DM decided that the biggest thing in the bar was a Storm Giant... CR13, so my character ended up getting killed (I had a new character in reserve to use) and the frenzied berserker almost died. We ended up being able to kill the Storm Giant when my new character jumped into the fight, but does it make sense that there was a Storm Giant in the bar? or is the DM abusing his power. EDIT: I made a second post that said this, but we did ask what the biggest thing in the bar was before attacking it, he said it was a half ogre. Also we didn't throw the first punch, I just provoked it into attacking me, yelled at it for bumping into me. After we attacked he decided to make it a storm giant and use the book stats but give it 300hp instead of 199 average as in the book. We weren't trying to steal the spotlight, there were only 3 of us playing that night and one of the party was trying to decide on a piece of gear to buy and had been doing so for 15 mins (reading through all the books to find something cool etc.), so we decided to entertain ourselves. We are all chaotic evil so doing random acts of violence in a town is something we have done in many areas, also in the town we are in the DM made a princess who we have done a number of quests for which basically gives protection as she will pardon us for randomly attacking people, or give us a difficult quest. Again, we did not attack the storm giant, merely provoked it so it would attack us.
The White Sorcerer 02-16-07, 11:10 AM	Just how big was the bar? Unless it actually is big enough to accomodate Huge creatures, the DM was being a jerk.
stabs 02-16-07, 11:11 AM	It's not impossible for a Storm Giant to be in a bar (if he can fit through the door). But yes, it would be very very unusual. But hey, that's what the Forgotten Realms (and Waterdeep especially) is for; the unlikely happening. Now, the real question to determine DM assery... Did your DM explain that the biggest thing in the bar was the Storm Giant and you then proceeded to get into a fight? Or did your DM say "Okay, the biggest thing in the bar is a Storm Giant. And you just attacked it."
zioth 02-16-07, 11:12 AM	Uh... Hm... Um... Is this post a joke? Are these players above the age of ten? Maybe you should have asked what the biggest thing in the bar was before starting a fight with it. Maybe you shouldn't be starting life-and-death fights at random with peaceful citizens. Maybe your characters should be given the death penalty for murdering a bar patron without provocation. Maybe you're intentionally trying to make a mess up the DM's campaign, so he decided to teach you a lesson.
Zandrox 02-16-07, 11:16 AM	It seemed to be a standard size bar from the description, I looked in the monster manual after the fight and saw the CR13 and that the storm giant is 20 feet tall and 12,000 pounds on average. Our characters were both level 11, we also didn't get much in terms of treasure/gold we were given 10 pearls (100gp each) and 1000 gp in total, which seems kinda low compared with what our dm has been giving us. EDIT: Our characters are also chaotic evil so this is the type of thing we would do, and he said the biggest thing in the bar was a half ogre initially, then after it attacked me he said actually its a storm giant. And also the npc was provoked into attacking us.
ElHiggz 02-16-07, 11:17 AM	He's not abusing his power so much as being a jerk. Abusing his power would be fixing rolls and such without you knowing. Maybe you should've asked what the biggest thing in the tavern was before attacking it, eh?
Boraxe 02-16-07, 11:20 AM	No, the DM was using his discretion to punish you for selfishly trying to steal the spotlight in a really foolish and stupid manner. It was kind of a jerky way to do it, though. Personally, I'd have had both PCs exectued for murder if they'd survived the fight. Oh, and "chaotic evil" does not mean "psychotic jerkwad." Just FYI. All IMO of course.
stabs 02-16-07, 11:22 AM	Your DM can describe a Storm Giant however he or she wants. If it's depicted as a half ogre but uses storm giant stats, nothing wrong with that. Maybe it was hunched over, or made a disguise check. I think the real answer is start playing Chaotic Evil and stop playing Stupid Stupid.
tiamot 02-16-07, 12:39 PM	Given that your DM reneged and changed the 'biggest thing' from a half-ogre to a storm giant, I would say that he's not necessarily abusing his power, but just being an unfair jerk. You'd do well to just let it rest and remember to watch yourself next time, however I would approach the DM as a group and say something like, "What happened is all done and over, and we're willing to move on, but it was really unfair of you to tell us one thing and then up and change it after the fact."
DrakePD 02-16-07, 01:28 PM	Some time when PC's try to "invent" things to do, the DM will ad lib the situation and alot of times can get carried away. The DM might have first thought you guys were going to just get into a bar brawl and do some sub duel damage to some 1/2 witted 1/2 Ogre (No Offence). Things turned ugly and he changed things to teach you a lesson? We cannot say for sure, because we do not know what the DM had in mind. Is this DM abusing his power? I say no. Was he upset at what the players were doing? I say yes. Sometimes as a DM it is hard not having your emotions vent through the monsters and NPC in the game. The DM is only limited to his imagination and experience. IMO you ticked off your DM and he smashed your face in for it, and you let him. (Fleeing is always an option, I am sure there are many places in Westgate were a Storm Giant can't fit into) I am not saying that this is right, but it does happen.
FeceMan 02-16-07, 02:15 PM	Generally, when one asks this question, the answer is "yes."
Kursk 02-16-07, 04:08 PM	Too funny! A Storm Giant at the local bar. My advice? Find a DM who knows how to DM
Boraxe 02-16-07, 04:28 PM	Too funny! A Storm Giant at the local bar. My advice? Find a DM who knows how to DM In my game world it is not unknown for particularly wealth caravans to hire giants and other tough hombres as guards, and what's a fella - giant or otherwise - to do once they hit town but head down to the local and quaff a few gallons of ale before heading out again the next morning? There is nothing wrong with a giant in the local bar, it just depends on where that local happens to be located. :)
Templetroll 02-16-07, 05:12 PM	His changing the half-ogre into a storm giant was no worse than your new character 'just happens' to be in the same bar and 'just happens' to decide to jump in on the fight against the storm giant that just killed some guy. :)
Bopple 02-16-07, 10:04 PM	Well, it seems like birds of a feather, to me.
Elsydeon 02-17-07, 01:36 AM	Too funny! A Storm Giant at the local bar. My advice? Find a DM who knows how to DM Your implication that the player isn't also clueless offends me deeply.
johnkretzer 02-17-07, 05:01 AM	Yes he abused his power....but then again maybe he was sick of RPing scenes where you guys beet up some guy in a bar so he wanted to throw you a curve ball. Also what the use of having power if you can't abuse it once in a while? Just kidding, but only a little :evillaugh
kelvinaw273 02-17-07, 06:59 AM	Well I think you will find that his point was that if you want to go around picking fights with random strangers then sooner or later you might bite off more than you can chew. I must admit I would quickly tire of having to constantly pull up stats out of a hat just for the PCs to stomp all over because they get bored when they haven't killed something for 15 minutes.
DoctorRomulus 02-17-07, 09:33 AM	Stop yer cryin. Waa waa waa someone call a Wambulance. Look. You went looking for trouble and found it. Why was your character looking to start a fight with the biggest thing in the bar anyway? Next time around you'll use your head and not be so silly. So quit your whining, generate a new character, and the DM was well within his "power" to let this happen to you.
Ardan The Avenger 02-17-07, 09:54 AM	If your DM did change a half-ogre into a storm giant "to teach you a lesson" (paraphrase), that's being a jerk and abusing his power. There are so many legitimate ways to beat the crap out of PCs who go into bars to pick fights that resorting to such tactics is strictly amateur night at best.
Issabella 02-17-07, 10:02 AM	thank god the Tarraque was not sitting down on the bar for a drink when you declared you where attacking the most powerful thing there!
The White Sorcerer 02-17-07, 10:33 AM	There are so many legitimate ways to beat the crap out of PCs who go into bars to pick fights that resorting to such tactics is strictly amateur night at best. Yup. He should've let the PCs beat the half-ogre, and then proceeded to kick their butts with a 20th-level kobold monk.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-17-07, 10:35 AM	Well you did say the "biggest" thing in the bar. I would hope that a storm giant is the biggist thing in the bar. Must have really lofty ceilings. But was this an abuse of power? Well lets see, you asked to fight to the biggest thing in the bar. It happened to be a storm giant that looked like a half orger. Your 11th level, it was CR 13, hell we'll give +1 becuase it looked different. Cr 14, only 3 higher then you, not unreasonable. It matters not that it through the first blow, you pravoked it. You could have avoided the whole thing, not being an asshat. So the DM got tired of you playing the town bully. And chance cuaght up with you. Get over it, and maybe next time you won't be so moronic. Me, I would have kept it a have orger, with 5 levels of monk, and 4 levels of paladin. Ggiven it improved disarm to beat your sorry but with your own weapon. And also would have let it have improved natural attack feat as well. Then after it subduelly curples you like a foam cup, it huals you off to the magistriaght for a fair trial. Were your found guilty of attempted murder, bar full of whitnesses, and summarily executed. On the way to the execution grounds, kids would mock you and poeple would throw vegetables at you. Your head would then be displayed at the town gates as warning to all. Your body would thrown on the refuse heap like the garbage it is. Yaa bad things happen when you play choatic unnessesary, or stupid eveil in my games.
DoctorRomulus 02-17-07, 10:51 AM	And yes I've played chaotic stupid in some games where I decided to shake things up a bit by starting trouble with the locals. But when and if thing turned and I got my character mangled or killed i didn't go off somewhere saying, "waa waa waaa, the DM is unfair, waa waa waa". I took my comuppance like a man as the smiling DM handed me a new character sheet. BTW, a good DM can salvage any campaign.
Serrin 02-17-07, 08:31 PM	I took my comuppance like a man as the smiling DM handed me a new character sheet. BTW, a good DM can salvage any campaign. Sounds like he'll need a good DM to salvage this game. If he wanted to teach you a lesson, OP, there are about a million legit ways he could have done it, but instead he resorted to pulling ridiculousness out of his hat.
ravenshrike 02-19-07, 01:21 PM	But was this an abuse of power? Well lets see, you asked to fight to the biggest thing in the bar. It happened to be a storm giant that looked like a half orger. Your 11th level, it was CR 13, hell we'll give +1 becuase it looked different. Cr 14, only 3 higher then you, not unreasonable. The CR system assumes a 4 person party. It was only 2 of them. Or 2.5 is you count the jumping in of his next character.
Dag 02-19-07, 02:15 PM	Sounds like you, your friend, the DM, the Storm giant in the bar, the half ogre sitting on the stool to the left of the storm giant, and your back-up character sitting on the stool to the right of the storm giant all deserve each other. You guys should sell tickets to your game, I haven't laughed this hard at something posted here in a while.
Kursk 02-19-07, 03:29 PM	The CR system assumes a 4 person party. It was only 2 of them. Or 2.5 is you count the jumping in of his next character. The CR systems also assumes that the PC's aren't semi-suicidal or just plain dumb as a post.