Is this evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
laurent1
01-14-05, 06:16 PM I know that similar threads have been posted here in the past but I would like some opinion on this anyway.

Our party fought a bad guy and killed him. We got the treasure and in it came his big heavy mace the guy use to clobber us with. That mace was something like a +2 unholy, impact and vile heavy mace.

Needless to say,it was a bad eapon but we defeated the guy anyway.
So we decided to keep the mace as a treasure even if every member of our party is good. WE NEVER WANTED TO ACTUALLY USE THE WEAPON, JUST KEEP IT (even if it's evil in nature, it's a fine piece of treasure in my opinion)

But our Dm said that by keeping the mace we were doing an act of evil. He said that the proper thing to do would have been to find a way to destroy the mace (take it to a good aligned temple, etc).

He did not penalise us for that be he just implied that ous characters acted evil.

What do you think about this? Should we have try to destroy the mace?
Is it an evil act for a good character to keep an object even if the object is evil?
nooberfarthead
01-14-05, 06:34 PM You have done nothing evil. If the weapon should somehow possess one of you and force you to kill innocent people and you still choose to keep it, that might be an act of evil. But if the mace is what you described and nothing else then that should not be an issue. Just tell the DM that by keeping with the group the mace cannot be used by evil people or for evil purposes. So you could argue that keeping it is an act of good.
Just my opinon.
anders
01-14-05, 08:04 PM @laurent1

If your DM think it is evil it propably is. If you for instance keep the weapon and try to sell it, new evil hands will find the weapon, and so it will still continue to do harm.

The best thing would propably be to destroy it like your dm suggested. Much like LOTR where they find that over powerful ring that would rule nations, but in the end it turns out it was just another evil ring playing hallowen.

-- Hope this clears things up
Cymraegmorgan
01-14-05, 08:06 PM Borderline evil. You know it is a vile weapon. You, as good PCs are in possession of an unholy item.
I would regard your DM's statement as a final warning that bad things are afoot. Good PCs do not "trophy" vile weapons. They destroy them. What if said mace were stolen by an evil NPC? Every good creature killed with it is a creature your party killed through inaction.
Hope none of you are paladins.......

Destroy it now, for surely your Dm will use it to bite your collective backsides if you do not.
Lana "Silvertongue"
01-14-05, 08:13 PM Perhaps this is a plot device. Consider going and getting it sanctified, which the rules for are clearly established in the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Once sanctified you could offer it at a local chuch that has supported you younger adventuring career or barter your way into future discounts. Or keep it as a trophy then.
ck2001wendt
01-14-05, 09:20 PM But our Dm said that by keeping the mace we were doing an act of evil. He said that the proper thing to do would have been to find a way to destroy the mace (take it to a good aligned temple, etc).

The proper thing to do would be to Sanctify it and turn it into a +2 Sanctified Holy Mace of Impact (at some XP loss to you, of course), as per BoED. I gave one of my players a similar situation and it turned into a good experience.

Once it's a Good weapon, just use the darn thing yourselves.

Otherwise, yeah it's probably a little more evil to keep the thing around than destroy it. Keeping Vile creations around as trophies smacks of Pride. Of course, if it can't be destroyed for some reason, it's no more evil for you to keep it and not use it than to give it to a Temple and not use it (it could be taken from either of you).
Vharuck
01-15-05, 02:37 AM Perhaps this is a plot device. Consider going and getting it sanctified, which the rules for are clearly established in the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Once sanctified you could offer it at a local chuch that has supported you younger adventuring career or barter your way into future discounts. Or keep it as a trophy then.

Not so much a plot device as a complete act of railroading. Were I the DM (who obviously wants to open up a campaign plot where you seek a means to destroy the item), I would just have waited until you tried to sell it, the buyer refused once he learned what it was, and a priest would charge you with detsroying it. He's just metagmaing right now, not too good.
RabbitoutofaHat
01-15-05, 04:32 AM Sheesh it's just good at killing good things, it's not like this one weapon will shift the eternal balance of good and evil.

Taking the weapon to sell later is not evil and it sounds like your dm is over dramatising this or just doesnt want to cough up the gold for your party or maybe this item is plot related.

Destroying the weapon is going a bit far, it may get you a smidget of exp unless this item is plot related and was meant to be destroyed, otherwise your at a loss with this option.

Your not responsible for the entire world, your doing what good you can do and gold would help you out more than breaking an evil weapon which I'm sure theres many more were that came from.

What if said mace were stolen by an evil NPC? Every good creature killed with it is a creature your party killed through inaction

Thats a lil too indirect, every wand of fireball has the potential to destroy a hundred lives, yet merchants still sell 'em.
Melpomene
01-15-05, 09:52 PM It depends on what you actually want to do with it. Such a weapon can be a great a learning tool, a relic to be observed and studied. But, such musing are that of a wizard, one who studies.
Lxarth
01-15-05, 11:40 PM I am a DM who has also "given" my party a Vile weapon.

The weapon belonged to an evil necromancer, not that it really matters.

Anywho...the bard of the group now wears the Necromancers evil looking armor and hauls around this vile flail.

Doing these things wont make him evil, but I feel it helps him along that path. Since he knows he is being seen with evil looking armor and carrying a weapong that are evil but doesnt do anything about it.

The party does have another set of armor that the bard could wear but chooses not too.

Its not evil carrying the weapon, but its not good. If you want to do something good then detroy it.

Thats my opinion
DrMorganes
01-15-05, 11:54 PM Sheesh it's just good at killing good things, it's not like this one weapon will shift the eternal balance of good and evil. Read the Elric Saga. One weapon most certainly CAN shift the eternal balance of good and evil.

Nasty thing, Stormbringer... *shudders*
Shard of Suzail
01-16-05, 09:22 AM "We decided to keep the mace as a treasure" - Motivation = Greed.

"We decided to keep the mace out of evil hands" - Motivation = Noble/Burden.

"We decided to destroy the mace, or purify it" - Motivation = Noble/practical.

Of course, as with most treasure items, the party probably hangs on to it and has a good think about things. After they have a bit of a think they tend to have a conference and discuss the weapon or issue, i find.

I think your gm was probably jumping the gun a bit, but i can see what he is saying. I would have held judgement till the party had had a full discussion.
alecthemad
01-16-05, 11:28 AM I don't have BoVD or its counterpart but:

This smacks of a DM who wanted to give his bad guy a nice big bad melee weapon expecting his "good" group to get rid of it at the first chance. I am sure he thought it was win/win. My bad guy gets and awesome weapon and my players can't use it.

Then in the aftermath of the battle the DM ends up making a stupid face and saying WHAAAAAA? When his players decide to keep the weapon. So he say they must destroy it.

My advice is that if you are not a paladin then do not worry about it. Worst he should do is eventually shift your alignment towards evil (with a stop at neutral). At that point you may decide to get rid of the weapon in some fashion.

As a players I think the sanctified advice sounds like the best option. Turn the weapon into a force of good and really smack the bad guys around.
rhoan_01
01-16-05, 02:42 PM A TRUELY WICKED AND VILE DM (Like me) would have done something similar to this:

Party: "We keep the wicked villain's mace as treasure. We could probably sell it in the next town and buy ourselves a house!"

DM: "All right, who's carrying it?"

Fighter: "Me!"

DM: "Do you stick it in your Bag of Holding?"

Fighter: "Heck, no, last time I put a sword in there you said it ripped a hole in it, and I lost all my armor in the middle of the freakin' dungeon!"

DM: <chuckles wickedly in nostalgia>

Bard: "Anyway, we're going to sell that puppy in the next town."

DM: "Very well: after a few days of light riding you arrive at the closest port and largest city of the area, *mumbles incoherently*. You have to enter the city through a gate in the outer walls and declare your business; there appears to be quite a line."

Bard: "I'll play songs about our latest kill, try and get some gold."

DM: "As you begin working the crowd, a guard walks past with a monocle over one eye. As he approaches your party, he suddenly curses and whips off the monocle, drawing a nasty-looking rod. 'HANDS UP!' he cries."

<Everyone at the table throws up their hands; they've been arrested before. No-one reaches for the dice.>

Guard: "Drop that weapon! We're confiscating it under the Illegal Weapons Act of *mumbles incoherenly*!

Rogue: "The wh-? Oh, snap."

<More guards surround the party, binding their hands and removing their weapons. The guard with the monocle gingerly removes the vile mace, dropping it into a sack.>

Guard: "That is obviously a powerful and evil weapon; you will be fined 1,000 gold apiece and detained pending a further investigation."

Rogue: "I'll never live this down..."

Especially in the Eberron campaign setting, people are more familiar with magic, both good and bad. Guards are likely trianed to spot powerful and/or evil weapons (with such equipment as a lens of detect alignment) and confiscate them, much as police would confiscate and arrest carriers of unregistered, concealed and/or illegally modified firearms. A fighter may be barred entry to a town just because he has a +2 weapon, something that could reek havoc in a small, underdefended town! So yes, by all means, let them have their bounty; but let them face the consequences of their actions.
Melpomene
01-16-05, 04:03 PM Not that the above isn't valid, but it's also angry railroading caused by lack of forsight. All of the PC's equipment would be a problem, then, not just the evil pieces. ::shrug:: Smells funny to me.
Meshakhad
01-16-05, 09:16 PM C'mon, sanctify the thing!

BTW, what is the good equivalent of a vile weapon? There is no "Exalted" or "Sanctified" weapon in the BoED.

Still, its equivalent would be pretty powerful.
Kaboth
01-16-05, 10:11 PM Read the Elric Saga. One weapon most certainly CAN shift the eternal balance of good and evil.

Nasty thing, Stormbringer... *shudders*

Yea but Stormbringer itself would be considered an evil artifact considering it was a greater demon. Elric had to bend the sword to his will, sometimes he could sometimes he couldnt and it bent his will.

BTW, not sure if there is a 3E version, but the DnD eqivelant is a sword called the black razor.

But as far as keeping this unholy item... Depending on the alignment of the group other than the good part. I wouldnt neccessarily call it an evil act unless they intend to sell it to a purchaser.

However, I as a DM would award the group XP if they particpated in its destruction or removal from the gaming world. I would prolly just reverse the rules for maing a magic item and award them the xp for that part, maybe a little extra for destroying a masterwork weapon.
Lxarth
01-17-05, 02:24 PM ...just reverse the rules for maing a magic item and award them the xp for that part...

I think this is a great idea.
laurent1
01-22-05, 09:19 PM I finnaly reply to my thread!

Thanck a lot for all the advices. I don't own the boed myself so I didn't know of the sanctified rule but I talked to my dm about this and he think it's a great idea. In this way the evil weapon will become an object of good.

And we we will have the right to keep it after that :)
Dalton Onestone
01-23-05, 07:05 AM If you're in Eberron or any place where the Retain Essence feat works, there's an obvious answer ...

I have a Level 1 player on a solo quest right now getting pushed around by good gods to go fight a bunch of baddies wearing evil cloaks. (I know -- he tried one on and had to take it back off in a hurry.) I'm going to ask him whether Retain Essence works in his world (it's a homebrew, and it might, since he offered me the chance to play an Eberron-style artificer). If it does, they're valuable things. If not, they will be guests of honor at the next bonfire, unless they get preserved for study.
Alcari Ambaron
01-23-05, 04:29 PM i dont see why just Having a weapon that has a certain enchantment on it is evil.... yes, it is considered more damaging to good-aligned, but having an arrow tipped with poison that works only against humans doesnt suddenly make you Anti-Human???
further more, having a weapon of goblin bane doesn't make all the goblin in the world hate you more then they allready do, and regard you as Evil to them. so having a weapon that is Anti-Good doesnt make you Evil. a neutral aligned character might have problems with good aligned others, the perfect answer is to get an unholy weapon.
The DMG only states that the CREATOR must be Evil.
was_fired
01-24-05, 10:39 AM I have no idea what vile is, but having an unholy weapon does not make a character evil. Lets say that a person or creature is on a crusade against chaos in all forms good or evil. For this purpose he gets his cold iron holy, unholy, axiomatic, chaotic outsider bane weapon in order to break the DR of almost all chaotic outsiders. This is a potent weapon in the hands of a lawful neutral, but evil? No.
Lionhearted
01-24-05, 10:59 AM actually the sword isn't evil if it's not intellegent
only the purpose it is used in!
Callista
01-24-05, 04:59 PM The problem here isn't with the "unholy" effect, though why a Good character would want to use such an item (except perhaps for the +2 bonus) is really beyond me.

The problem is with vile damage.

The BoVD describes Vile damage as "such an evil violation to a character's body or soul that only in a holy place can healing magic repair the damage". For this reason, dealing Vile damage is an evil act.

Have the weapon Sanctified, and you'll have no further problems.
Leap
01-25-05, 07:58 AM "We decided to keep the mace as a treasure" - Motivation = Greed.

Erm, does the term "sweepng generalisation" mean anything to you? ;)

Gaining treasure isn't the same thing as "Greed" - that is a matter of "ammount" or value.

General point -

Keeping the mace is not an evil act, it's a neutral one where you have no particular interest in destroying "eeeeevil" and would like to keep a pretty cool trophy that just happens to be "vile". Sure it's not a good act (allowing a weapon of evil to continue existing when you could destroy it) but it aint an evil act either.
Shard of Suzail
01-25-05, 02:48 PM Interestingly, "as a treasure" means something different to "as treasure" with regards to D and D.

However, I stand by my claim that to value an evil item purely with regards to how much it can be sold for as loot is greed motivated. Note also that greed is not necessarily a bad thing, it means, in this instance, purely monetary assessment of an item.

Greed is the driving force behind all business transactions, or perhaps "the requirement for profit" if you want it put in a nicer way. It is, however a selfish notion, though not necessarily an evil one. Human beings, after all, want to live happy lives and have a lot of needs and wants that they try and satisfy in many ways.

Thus using the evil mace to satisfy their needs and wants without considering the dark ramifications of, say, selling to to an evil person or otherwise letting it get onto the market (a bit like chemical weapons) is a greed based action.

Potentially, if they wanted to "treasure it" by putting it in a glass case and admiring it, then thats a different thing entirely. If they wanted to do that, then thats not a harmful thing. However, i would find it hard to believe that the party keeps its loot items purely as trophies and doesnt sell them on.

Thus, keep as an item of riches for later trade = Greed based logic/profit/self satisfaction.

Keeping it safely as a trophy of a victory over evil = Not a problem, so long as expense is taken to keep it from falling into evil hands (which was one of my alternative theories set out in the original post).
penchant
01-26-05, 03:44 AM Just to interject, keeping an evil item as a trophy is perfectly valid for good people. One it reminds them of what they have done and it reminds others of what they have done. As long as they make certain that it cannot harm anyone then its not evil. Although its cross genre, both batman and superman keep trophies of the villians they defeat. Even mystical evil things as long as they are inert.
Callista
01-26-05, 05:42 AM Right. Like I said... Sanctify it. Then use it in undercover missions... no one suspects the guy with the Misdirection spell and the mace with skulls all over it of being a Good character with a holy weapon, now, do they? :)
penchant
01-26-05, 05:47 AM Marry me Callista!

Oops... forgot the wife and kids. Oh, well.
Szat
01-26-05, 05:54 AM Right. Like I said... Sanctify it. Then use it in undercover missions... no one suspects the guy with the Misdirection spell and the mace with skulls all over it of being a Good character with a holy weapon, now, do they? :)

That's just nifty! *applauds*
was_fired
01-26-05, 06:43 AM Umm in order for misdirection to work you need something which is either neutral or evil. If you really want to make sure they think your evil this means you need an evil item such as say an unholy weapon.
Callista
01-26-05, 08:17 AM Undetectable Alignment works, too.

At any rate... you can cast Misdirection on yourself to present yourself as Neutral or Evil when you're actually Good. Same with your weapon. 'Course, if you walk into an antimagic zone, etc., the jig is up!

Yes, you need an Evil object or person in order to cast Misdirection; but you can easily do that by just casting an Align Weapon spell (for your weapon) and searching out an Evil commoner (for yourself). (I know Align Weapon to make a weapon Evil is a spell with the Evil descriptor... but what cleric's god would give him trouble for casting it for that reason? Of course, you can always find a Neutral cleric who doesn't mind.)

For that matter, you could use Misdirection to appear *neutral*... and not hide the fact that you're using Misdirection! That way, the people who see you with that mace and your play-acting (hope your Bluff is good!) an Evil person will simply assume you're using Misdirection to make an Evil person and weapon appear Neutral.

Click Here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#Misdirection) for the SRD's description of the Misdirection spell (it's about 3/4 of the way down the page). Good creatures and objects can use it, too.
EarthForce
01-26-05, 03:09 PM I don't see what the DM had against it. I can't remember what vile does right off hand, but unholy makes your good-aligned characters suffer a negative level(Regardless of what spells they use) as long as they weild it.

Even so it's still a fairly strong weapon. Although there could be downsides to it... it could be sentient.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
laurent1 01-14-05, 06:16 PM	I know that similar threads have been posted here in the past but I would like some opinion on this anyway. Our party fought a bad guy and killed him. We got the treasure and in it came his big heavy mace the guy use to clobber us with. That mace was something like a +2 unholy, impact and vile heavy mace. Needless to say,it was a bad eapon but we defeated the guy anyway. So we decided to keep the mace as a treasure even if every member of our party is good. WE NEVER WANTED TO ACTUALLY USE THE WEAPON, JUST KEEP IT (even if it's evil in nature, it's a fine piece of treasure in my opinion) But our Dm said that by keeping the mace we were doing an act of evil. He said that the proper thing to do would have been to find a way to destroy the mace (take it to a good aligned temple, etc). He did not penalise us for that be he just implied that ous characters acted evil. What do you think about this? Should we have try to destroy the mace? Is it an evil act for a good character to keep an object even if the object is evil?
nooberfarthead 01-14-05, 06:34 PM	You have done nothing evil. If the weapon should somehow possess one of you and force you to kill innocent people and you still choose to keep it, that might be an act of evil. But if the mace is what you described and nothing else then that should not be an issue. Just tell the DM that by keeping with the group the mace cannot be used by evil people or for evil purposes. So you could argue that keeping it is an act of good. Just my opinon.
anders 01-14-05, 08:04 PM	@laurent1 If your DM think it is evil it propably is. If you for instance keep the weapon and try to sell it, new evil hands will find the weapon, and so it will still continue to do harm. The best thing would propably be to destroy it like your dm suggested. Much like LOTR where they find that over powerful ring that would rule nations, but in the end it turns out it was just another evil ring playing hallowen. -- Hope this clears things up
Cymraegmorgan 01-14-05, 08:06 PM	Borderline evil. You know it is a vile weapon. You, as good PCs are in possession of an unholy item. I would regard your DM's statement as a final warning that bad things are afoot. Good PCs do not "trophy" vile weapons. They destroy them. What if said mace were stolen by an evil NPC? Every good creature killed with it is a creature your party killed through inaction. Hope none of you are paladins....... Destroy it now, for surely your Dm will use it to bite your collective backsides if you do not.
Lana "Silvertongue" 01-14-05, 08:13 PM	Perhaps this is a plot device. Consider going and getting it sanctified, which the rules for are clearly established in the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Once sanctified you could offer it at a local chuch that has supported you younger adventuring career or barter your way into future discounts. Or keep it as a trophy then.
ck2001wendt 01-14-05, 09:20 PM	But our Dm said that by keeping the mace we were doing an act of evil. He said that the proper thing to do would have been to find a way to destroy the mace (take it to a good aligned temple, etc). The proper thing to do would be to Sanctify it and turn it into a +2 Sanctified Holy Mace of Impact (at some XP loss to you, of course), as per BoED. I gave one of my players a similar situation and it turned into a good experience. Once it's a Good weapon, just use the darn thing yourselves. Otherwise, yeah it's probably a little more evil to keep the thing around than destroy it. Keeping Vile creations around as trophies smacks of Pride. Of course, if it can't be destroyed for some reason, it's no more evil for you to keep it and not use it than to give it to a Temple and not use it (it could be taken from either of you).
Vharuck 01-15-05, 02:37 AM	Perhaps this is a plot device. Consider going and getting it sanctified, which the rules for are clearly established in the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Once sanctified you could offer it at a local chuch that has supported you younger adventuring career or barter your way into future discounts. Or keep it as a trophy then. Not so much a plot device as a complete act of railroading. Were I the DM (who obviously wants to open up a campaign plot where you seek a means to destroy the item), I would just have waited until you tried to sell it, the buyer refused once he learned what it was, and a priest would charge you with detsroying it. He's just metagmaing right now, not too good.
RabbitoutofaHat 01-15-05, 04:32 AM	Sheesh it's just good at killing good things, it's not like this one weapon will shift the eternal balance of good and evil. Taking the weapon to sell later is not evil and it sounds like your dm is over dramatising this or just doesnt want to cough up the gold for your party or maybe this item is plot related. Destroying the weapon is going a bit far, it may get you a smidget of exp unless this item is plot related and was meant to be destroyed, otherwise your at a loss with this option. Your not responsible for the entire world, your doing what good you can do and gold would help you out more than breaking an evil weapon which I'm sure theres many more were that came from. What if said mace were stolen by an evil NPC? Every good creature killed with it is a creature your party killed through inaction Thats a lil too indirect, every wand of fireball has the potential to destroy a hundred lives, yet merchants still sell 'em.
Melpomene 01-15-05, 09:52 PM	It depends on what you actually want to do with it. Such a weapon can be a great a learning tool, a relic to be observed and studied. But, such musing are that of a wizard, one who studies.
Lxarth 01-15-05, 11:40 PM	I am a DM who has also "given" my party a Vile weapon. The weapon belonged to an evil necromancer, not that it really matters. Anywho...the bard of the group now wears the Necromancers evil looking armor and hauls around this vile flail. Doing these things wont make him evil, but I feel it helps him along that path. Since he knows he is being seen with evil looking armor and carrying a weapong that are evil but doesnt do anything about it. The party does have another set of armor that the bard could wear but chooses not too. Its not evil carrying the weapon, but its not good. If you want to do something good then detroy it. Thats my opinion
DrMorganes 01-15-05, 11:54 PM	Sheesh it's just good at killing good things, it's not like this one weapon will shift the eternal balance of good and evil. Read the Elric Saga. One weapon most certainly CAN shift the eternal balance of good and evil. Nasty thing, Stormbringer... shudders
Shard of Suzail 01-16-05, 09:22 AM	"We decided to keep the mace as a treasure" - Motivation = Greed. "We decided to keep the mace out of evil hands" - Motivation = Noble/Burden. "We decided to destroy the mace, or purify it" - Motivation = Noble/practical. Of course, as with most treasure items, the party probably hangs on to it and has a good think about things. After they have a bit of a think they tend to have a conference and discuss the weapon or issue, i find. I think your gm was probably jumping the gun a bit, but i can see what he is saying. I would have held judgement till the party had had a full discussion.
alecthemad 01-16-05, 11:28 AM	I don't have BoVD or its counterpart but: This smacks of a DM who wanted to give his bad guy a nice big bad melee weapon expecting his "good" group to get rid of it at the first chance. I am sure he thought it was win/win. My bad guy gets and awesome weapon and my players can't use it. Then in the aftermath of the battle the DM ends up making a stupid face and saying WHAAAAAA? When his players decide to keep the weapon. So he say they must destroy it. My advice is that if you are not a paladin then do not worry about it. Worst he should do is eventually shift your alignment towards evil (with a stop at neutral). At that point you may decide to get rid of the weapon in some fashion. As a players I think the sanctified advice sounds like the best option. Turn the weapon into a force of good and really smack the bad guys around.
rhoan_01 01-16-05, 02:42 PM	A TRUELY WICKED AND VILE DM (Like me) would have done something similar to this: Party: "We keep the wicked villain's mace as treasure. We could probably sell it in the next town and buy ourselves a house!" DM: "All right, who's carrying it?" Fighter: "Me!" DM: "Do you stick it in your Bag of Holding?" Fighter: "Heck, no, last time I put a sword in there you said it ripped a hole in it, and I lost all my armor in the middle of the freakin' dungeon!" DM: <chuckles wickedly in nostalgia> Bard: "Anyway, we're going to sell that puppy in the next town." DM: "Very well: after a few days of light riding you arrive at the closest port and largest city of the area, mumbles incoherently. You have to enter the city through a gate in the outer walls and declare your business; there appears to be quite a line." Bard: "I'll play songs about our latest kill, try and get some gold." DM: "As you begin working the crowd, a guard walks past with a monocle over one eye. As he approaches your party, he suddenly curses and whips off the monocle, drawing a nasty-looking rod. 'HANDS UP!' he cries." <Everyone at the table throws up their hands; they've been arrested before. No-one reaches for the dice.> Guard: "Drop that weapon! We're confiscating it under the Illegal Weapons Act of mumbles incoherenly! Rogue: "The wh-? Oh, snap." <More guards surround the party, binding their hands and removing their weapons. The guard with the monocle gingerly removes the vile mace, dropping it into a sack.> Guard: "That is obviously a powerful and evil weapon; you will be fined 1,000 gold apiece and detained pending a further investigation." Rogue: "I'll never live this down..." Especially in the Eberron campaign setting, people are more familiar with magic, both good and bad. Guards are likely trianed to spot powerful and/or evil weapons (with such equipment as a lens of detect alignment) and confiscate them, much as police would confiscate and arrest carriers of unregistered, concealed and/or illegally modified firearms. A fighter may be barred entry to a town just because he has a +2 weapon, something that could reek havoc in a small, underdefended town! So yes, by all means, let them have their bounty; but let them face the consequences of their actions.
Melpomene 01-16-05, 04:03 PM	Not that the above isn't valid, but it's also angry railroading caused by lack of forsight. All of the PC's equipment would be a problem, then, not just the evil pieces. ::shrug:: Smells funny to me.
Meshakhad 01-16-05, 09:16 PM	C'mon, sanctify the thing! BTW, what is the good equivalent of a vile weapon? There is no "Exalted" or "Sanctified" weapon in the BoED. Still, its equivalent would be pretty powerful.
Kaboth 01-16-05, 10:11 PM	Read the Elric Saga. One weapon most certainly CAN shift the eternal balance of good and evil. Nasty thing, Stormbringer... shudders Yea but Stormbringer itself would be considered an evil artifact considering it was a greater demon. Elric had to bend the sword to his will, sometimes he could sometimes he couldnt and it bent his will. BTW, not sure if there is a 3E version, but the DnD eqivelant is a sword called the black razor. But as far as keeping this unholy item... Depending on the alignment of the group other than the good part. I wouldnt neccessarily call it an evil act unless they intend to sell it to a purchaser. However, I as a DM would award the group XP if they particpated in its destruction or removal from the gaming world. I would prolly just reverse the rules for maing a magic item and award them the xp for that part, maybe a little extra for destroying a masterwork weapon.
Lxarth 01-17-05, 02:24 PM	...just reverse the rules for maing a magic item and award them the xp for that part... I think this is a great idea.
laurent1 01-22-05, 09:19 PM	I finnaly reply to my thread! Thanck a lot for all the advices. I don't own the boed myself so I didn't know of the sanctified rule but I talked to my dm about this and he think it's a great idea. In this way the evil weapon will become an object of good. And we we will have the right to keep it after that :)
Dalton Onestone 01-23-05, 07:05 AM	If you're in Eberron or any place where the Retain Essence feat works, there's an obvious answer ... I have a Level 1 player on a solo quest right now getting pushed around by good gods to go fight a bunch of baddies wearing evil cloaks. (I know -- he tried one on and had to take it back off in a hurry.) I'm going to ask him whether Retain Essence works in his world (it's a homebrew, and it might, since he offered me the chance to play an Eberron-style artificer). If it does, they're valuable things. If not, they will be guests of honor at the next bonfire, unless they get preserved for study.
Alcari Ambaron 01-23-05, 04:29 PM	i dont see why just Having a weapon that has a certain enchantment on it is evil.... yes, it is considered more damaging to good-aligned, but having an arrow tipped with poison that works only against humans doesnt suddenly make you Anti-Human??? further more, having a weapon of goblin bane doesn't make all the goblin in the world hate you more then they allready do, and regard you as Evil to them. so having a weapon that is Anti-Good doesnt make you Evil. a neutral aligned character might have problems with good aligned others, the perfect answer is to get an unholy weapon. The DMG only states that the CREATOR must be Evil.
was_fired 01-24-05, 10:39 AM	I have no idea what vile is, but having an unholy weapon does not make a character evil. Lets say that a person or creature is on a crusade against chaos in all forms good or evil. For this purpose he gets his cold iron holy, unholy, axiomatic, chaotic outsider bane weapon in order to break the DR of almost all chaotic outsiders. This is a potent weapon in the hands of a lawful neutral, but evil? No.
Lionhearted 01-24-05, 10:59 AM	actually the sword isn't evil if it's not intellegent only the purpose it is used in!
Callista 01-24-05, 04:59 PM	The problem here isn't with the "unholy" effect, though why a Good character would want to use such an item (except perhaps for the +2 bonus) is really beyond me. The problem is with vile damage. The BoVD describes Vile damage as "such an evil violation to a character's body or soul that only in a holy place can healing magic repair the damage". For this reason, dealing Vile damage is an evil act. Have the weapon Sanctified, and you'll have no further problems.
Leap 01-25-05, 07:58 AM	"We decided to keep the mace as a treasure" - Motivation = Greed. Erm, does the term "sweepng generalisation" mean anything to you? ;) Gaining treasure isn't the same thing as "Greed" - that is a matter of "ammount" or value. General point - Keeping the mace is not an evil act, it's a neutral one where you have no particular interest in destroying "eeeeevil" and would like to keep a pretty cool trophy that just happens to be "vile". Sure it's not a good act (allowing a weapon of evil to continue existing when you could destroy it) but it aint an evil act either.
Shard of Suzail 01-25-05, 02:48 PM	Interestingly, "as a treasure" means something different to "as treasure" with regards to D and D. However, I stand by my claim that to value an evil item purely with regards to how much it can be sold for as loot is greed motivated. Note also that greed is not necessarily a bad thing, it means, in this instance, purely monetary assessment of an item. Greed is the driving force behind all business transactions, or perhaps "the requirement for profit" if you want it put in a nicer way. It is, however a selfish notion, though not necessarily an evil one. Human beings, after all, want to live happy lives and have a lot of needs and wants that they try and satisfy in many ways. Thus using the evil mace to satisfy their needs and wants without considering the dark ramifications of, say, selling to to an evil person or otherwise letting it get onto the market (a bit like chemical weapons) is a greed based action. Potentially, if they wanted to "treasure it" by putting it in a glass case and admiring it, then thats a different thing entirely. If they wanted to do that, then thats not a harmful thing. However, i would find it hard to believe that the party keeps its loot items purely as trophies and doesnt sell them on. Thus, keep as an item of riches for later trade = Greed based logic/profit/self satisfaction. Keeping it safely as a trophy of a victory over evil = Not a problem, so long as expense is taken to keep it from falling into evil hands (which was one of my alternative theories set out in the original post).
penchant 01-26-05, 03:44 AM	Just to interject, keeping an evil item as a trophy is perfectly valid for good people. One it reminds them of what they have done and it reminds others of what they have done. As long as they make certain that it cannot harm anyone then its not evil. Although its cross genre, both batman and superman keep trophies of the villians they defeat. Even mystical evil things as long as they are inert.
Callista 01-26-05, 05:42 AM	Right. Like I said... Sanctify it. Then use it in undercover missions... no one suspects the guy with the Misdirection spell and the mace with skulls all over it of being a Good character with a holy weapon, now, do they? :)
penchant 01-26-05, 05:47 AM	Marry me Callista! Oops... forgot the wife and kids. Oh, well.
Szat 01-26-05, 05:54 AM	Right. Like I said... Sanctify it. Then use it in undercover missions... no one suspects the guy with the Misdirection spell and the mace with skulls all over it of being a Good character with a holy weapon, now, do they? :) That's just nifty! applauds
was_fired 01-26-05, 06:43 AM	Umm in order for misdirection to work you need something which is either neutral or evil. If you really want to make sure they think your evil this means you need an evil item such as say an unholy weapon.
Callista 01-26-05, 08:17 AM	Undetectable Alignment works, too. At any rate... you can cast Misdirection on yourself to present yourself as Neutral or Evil when you're actually Good. Same with your weapon. 'Course, if you walk into an antimagic zone, etc., the jig is up! Yes, you need an Evil object or person in order to cast Misdirection; but you can easily do that by just casting an Align Weapon spell (for your weapon) and searching out an Evil commoner (for yourself). (I know Align Weapon to make a weapon Evil is a spell with the Evil descriptor... but what cleric's god would give him trouble for casting it for that reason? Of course, you can always find a Neutral cleric who doesn't mind.) For that matter, you could use Misdirection to appear neutral... and not hide the fact that you're using Misdirection! That way, the people who see you with that mace and your play-acting (hope your Bluff is good!) an Evil person will simply assume you're using Misdirection to make an Evil person and weapon appear Neutral. Click Here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#Misdirection) for the SRD's description of the Misdirection spell (it's about 3/4 of the way down the page). Good creatures and objects can use it, too.
EarthForce 01-26-05, 03:09 PM	I don't see what the DM had against it. I can't remember what vile does right off hand, but unholy makes your good-aligned characters suffer a negative level(Regardless of what spells they use) as long as they weild it. Even so it's still a fairly strong weapon. Although there could be downsides to it... it could be sentient.