Is this reasonable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this reasonable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ringmereth
12-02-03, 11:06 PM Well, I'm playing a wizard (the only wizard in our party). My DM just informed me of his house rule that any character crafting an item is not only paying XP and gold, but also has to effectively skip the game session. The time it takes to craft the item basically means my character is stuck at the mage's guild working, while everyone else is out getting XP and loot. Not only does it hurt my character, but it also means I don't play for 1 or more sessions, depending on what I'm crafting. If I'm working on a Staff of The Magi or something really powerful, I could be out of the group, more or less, for a month or more. My DM says that yes, it's annoying, but spellcasters shouldn't be magic item factories. He thinks that my PC should only be making special items (like a ring that gives me +2 INT, two extra 3rd level spells per day, and darkvision), not basic stuff that comes out of the DMG.

So, what do you think of this? Is this a fair rule, or is it hurting my character unfairly?

Thanx!
Koga:The ninja trick
12-02-03, 11:21 PM I don't think it so much hurts the character as it does the player. Why should the party have to wait around cause their mage is making something cool? But that's no reason to stop you from showing up for a session. Perhaps you could play an npc or something..

If you take away the wizard's ability to milk item creation.. he's bassically just a waterd down sorcerer..
bard_4_life
12-02-03, 11:31 PM WHy don't you just ask the rest of the party to stay in a town with you until you're finished? Everyone doing nothing=time going by fast=easy to make items. Just don't make too many or your DM may rule an "unfortunate accident".
Faeryl Zauvirr
12-02-03, 11:32 PM Your DM is a moron.
Sephraem
12-02-03, 11:35 PM I think I see where your DM is coming from.

Firstly, the items in the DMG are so mundane - common, if you will. I think he's hoping you'll be wildly creative, and if not that, then at least thinking about adding personal touches to the items you want. I suspect he's hoping to restore a little mystery to mages and magic.

Secondly, I share his frustration about spellcasters becoming magic item factories. With every joe able to churn out +1 swords, not only does it exacerbate the problem highlighted in my first point, but it also cheapens the whole idea of magic items altogether.

Thirdly, it's obvious he wants to deter you as much as possible from taking time out to create magic items.

Personally, I wouldn't do that to a player of mine. I suspect his intentions are entirely honourable, however. What options has he offered you to compensate for your character being out of the game for a considerable time? For example, has he said it would be okay for you to play another character until your mage comes back?

Have you discussed it with your fellow players? Would they be prepared to take downtime in return for custom made magic items for them? Can you persuade them not to adventure while these items are being created? Try and convince them, perhaps, that you'll need guarding while you create these precious items for them. (This could even provide hooks into urban adventures if your DM is so inclined)

In some senses, it seems to me that your DM is being quite generous in offering you the opportunity to custom design magic items perfectly tailoured to your character and his party, and in fact has a preference for you doing that. He probably realises that what he's asking of you is on meaner side of strict, and is compensating for it in other ways.

I'm sure once you've talked it through with your DM and fellow players, it won't look quite so bleak.

Good luck, and let me know how it all turns out. :)
Sephraem
12-02-03, 11:38 PM Originally posted by Faeryl Zauvirr
Your DM is a moron. Wow! Judgemental much?

I do think the DM is being overly strict, but I don't think that makes him a moron. If I understand his position correctly, it seems quite well reasoned to me.
ThorvaldHafgrimsson
12-03-03, 01:30 AM I agree with Sephraem. Talk to your DM and explain that since the classes are (theoretically) balanced with their core abilities, his reduction of a major Wizard ability could reduce the power of the Wizard class. See if he will either change his mind and allow campaign time to pass or allow some mitigating factor (Extra Class Skills, a single free Toughness Feat at first level, whatever) to balance the really serious restriction on a fundamental Wizard ability.
bolobaby
12-03-03, 02:03 AM Option one is to do what someone already suggested: simply ask the rest of the party to wait for you. I doubt he'll have the entire party "skip the session" so he'll probably speed up your production process.

Option two is to ask the DM to consider allowing you to use your Craft feats more like the Craft skill. That is, allow for partial progress in the creation process. If you consider a full days work as being 8 hours, then you could theoretically spend 2 hours a day and craft a one day item in 4 days. Instead of being idle for a full day, the party would agree to be idle for 2 hours a day for you. This could be accomplished at night when you bed down or whatnot. As long as you are uninterrupted, you gain partial process on your item.

This should be a fair compromise if you consider the expense in both XP and gold (components, actually, which must be bought - you can't turn raw gold into magic items). Your DM might want to make you carry around a portable "lab" - much like an Alchemists Lab. This lab may weigh just as much - 40lbs - so I hope you have a horse to carry it in. Obviously, you aren't going to have the whole lab out at any given time, just the parts you need. Mortar and pestle to grind up gems; special tongs to hold volatile components; exotic candles for incantations.

As far as only using the feats to make "special" items - that is BS. The feats allow you to make anything that falls into that category. If you want to make a Quaal's Feather Token, knock yourself out. Every item costs gold and XP, so you need to carefully consider how often you want to use these feats to create more mundane magical items.

As a DM, I often try to give advantages to characters who take the item creation feats. They usually don't get used that often in a campaign that has a pressing storyline (as mine do), so I help out the crafters when I can. Occassionally, they'll run into arcane labs that create potions at +1 caster level or stuff like that.

If your campaign is episodic instead of epic then you have much more time to create items. That's all well and good - create away - it'll cost you. If, however, your DM doesn't like the fact that you are getting so many magic items from your feats, then he should be *smart* and create adventures from the process! Looking to create a Wand of Fireballs? Sure... oh... except... you'll need the guano from a rare Fire Bat. Go hunt him down.

The gold required to make an item represents components, so it's completely fair for the DM to simply say, "Sorry, that component isn't for sale in this location... you'll have to go get it yourself."
White Mage
12-03-03, 08:00 AM Responding to the question "Is this reasonable?" I have two comments:
1) If the DM did not tell you before you took the feats it is unreasonable according to me.
2) The DM ususlly sets the flavour ot the campaign. That, more or less, is his job and right. Obviously you play in a unusually fastpaced campaign. It would not be my choice. As DM I give the PC's downtime between adventures to do stuff they want. From a roleplaying perspecive that does sound reasonable to me: why risk life and limb adventuring if you don't have the off time to enjoy the spoils and admiration?
pjackson
12-03-03, 09:35 AM So long as he told you before you took the feats, and so long as it does not apply to a wizard making scrolls, it is reasonable.
Ringmereth
12-03-03, 04:56 PM Thanks a lot for the input. I probably should have said that this campaign is set in a big city (1 million+ residents) and most of the adventures are within it (in sewers, warehouses, the graveyard district, etc). My DM also gives us loot specialized for our characters. For instance, a few weeks ago encounter, I got a Ring of Counterspelling and a scroll, the monk got silver masterwork Kamas, the priest got a Mace of Disruption, etc. And we get lots and lots of treasure. On average, we're getting several thousand GP per session. So I don't have to craft most things- we can just go buy them.

No- he didn't tell me before I took the feats. However, he will let me swap out CWI for a feat of my choice (I'm taking Improved Familiar). Though I wanted to make stuff, he's justifying it from a roleplaying perspective- my PC went to the 'Dungeoneer's School of Wizardry,' so he was trained to kill stuff, not sit around building magic items.

Also, we don't have much downtime, but that's just the nature of the campaign- he keeps stuff coming pretty fast. He will give me enough downtime to make stuff with my Alchemy skill, and I'm putting enough ranks into it that I can make most things in one day.

I guess it's okay with me, since he gives out a lot more treasure that he should (my character has maybe 15k gp in gold and items, and I just got up to 5th level). It doesn't really underpower my PC much. Thanks for the opinions!
Psifon
12-03-03, 10:42 PM I agree with Faeryl Zauvirr. Your DM is a moron.

The reasons he is a moron are several:

1) He using DM fiat to solve a problem that is easily delt with in-game. If he wants to make an item creation hard, he can just put time constraints on the plot line. He is not creative enough to do this, so he is punishing you. Therefore he is a moron.

2) He is ignoring other resources at his disposal for magic item creation limits. For one, he can make it so that every item you create needs a special (rare) component, and therefore you need to adventure to find it. Again this would require flexibility and creativity on his part. Moron.

3) He is deliberately squelching the creativity of his players. Moron.

4) He has enacted a rule that he cannot enforce. If the rest of the party choses to sit around the inn until you are done making the item, there is nothing he can do about it. In doing so, he is inviting player revolt in his campign. His only recourse is to keep throwing contrived encounters at you in hopes that you give up making items. But note, you no longer need uninterrupted time to make an item (DMG pg 238). This kind of reactive stance puts conrol of the campaign into the hands of the players. Truely, this is moronic.
Ringmereth
12-03-03, 11:05 PM Originally posted by Psifon
I agree with Faeryl Zauvirr. Your DM is a moron.

The reasons he is a moron are several:

1) He using DM fiat to solve a problem that is easily delt with in-game. If he wants to make an item creation hard, he can just put time constraints on the plot line. He is not creative enough to do this, so he is punishing you. Therefore he is a moron.
...
4) He has enacted a rule that he cannot enforce. If the rest of the party choses to sit around the inn until you are done making the item, there is nothing he can do about it. In doing so, he is inviting player revolt in his campign. His only recourse is to keep throwing contrived encounters at you in hopes that you give up making items. But note, you no longer need uninterrupted time to make an item (DMG pg 238). This kind of reactive stance puts conrol of the campaign into the hands of the players. Truely, this is moronic.

Um... perhaps I forgot to say this, but there ARE time constraints on the plot line. If we sit around and wait for my PC to make an item, these will hurt us- he'll (the DM) either start throwing higher level stuff at us when I finish (not as a punishment, but to reflect that our enemies get a break from our attacks and have time to build up resources), or he'll just flat-out send an assassin to attack us, or notify us that something urgent is happening. 'Inviting player revolt'? No, he's not. It's just the flavor of the campaign that we don't have time to sit around and make magic items when we can just go out and buy them (and we get enough loot to be able to do this). By the way, he never said I couldn't make items- it's just that it'll hurt my character more than the item helps.

I will check out pg 238 of the DMG. If it helps me, I'll take it up with the DM.

I guess I sound defensive. I don't think my DM is a moron, though, just using an unusual policy. If people think this fits the game style well, then it's cool with me. Also, I was wondering what other DMs do. Does the party just hang out in town while the wizard makes the item, then they go back to whatever dungeon they left off at, or some other method?
Frodo Lives
12-03-03, 11:19 PM It sounds like a reasonable DM to me. I know it stinks for a wizard to have extra penalties associated with Item creation, but it is a fairly reasonable rule. Ecspecaily if he is allowing potions and scrolls to be created normally and will let you swap feats if you want because of this ruling.

I have always hated the 3.x rules for magic item creation. Permenant magic items should be special and powerful ones should not be easy to make. It also takes away a large portion of control of the game away from the DM. As a player I can pick and choose what magic items I want as long as I have enough money to me cheapens the excitement of finding that cool sword or magic ring.

In your situation I wouldn't have a huge problem, just don't make a large number of magic items. If you can make potions and scrolls normally and you've got tons of loot otherwise, it shouldn't be a huge issue. Ask your DM for something to compensate if you feel your wizard is being unfairly limited, and enjoy playing.
the_heart
12-04-03, 07:19 AM your DM may or may not be a moron, but that house rule is an unreasonable one IMO. the item creation rules already incorporate a penalty.

If the DM doesn't want to deal with item creation(for any one of a number of reasons from the reasonable to the downright ridiculous) he should have just not allowed the feats to be taken.

if there is no way to get him to change his mind, consider asking him to allow you to switch out IC feats for other feats.
DaemeonBlack
12-04-03, 03:47 PM I feel it is very unfair and the DM needs to reexamine his plan.

Wizards already get penalized making the items, they must spend money from their share of the loot and XP to create the item plus time (not usually a factor but he is making it so). If he makes you skip a game session you loose the XP of that adventure ON TOP of what you spent in creation, thus effectivly doubling the XP penalty already imposed.

Already in my games the Wizard who makes an item here and there lags behind in XP slightly. With this method the DM will make the Wizard lag behind even further thus making the Wizard less powerful in the long run, punishing you for using your Wizard feats.

I would not play a Wizard in this DM's game at all.
The Hanged Man
12-04-03, 04:04 PM Originally posted by Ringmereth
Um... perhaps I forgot to say this, but there ARE time constraints on the plot line. If we sit around and wait for my PC to make an item, these will hurt us- he'll (the DM) either start throwing higher level stuff at us when I finish (not as a punishment, but to reflect that our enemies get a break from our attacks and have time to build up resources), or he'll just flat-out send an assassin to attack us, or notify us that something urgent is happening. 'Inviting player revolt'? No, he's not. It's just the flavor of the campaign that we don't have time to sit around and make magic items when we can just go out and buy them (and we get enough loot to be able to do this). By the way, he never said I couldn't make items- it's just that it'll hurt my character more than the item helps.

I will check out pg 238 of the DMG. If it helps me, I'll take it up with the DM.

I guess I sound defensive. I don't think my DM is a moron, though, just using an unusual policy. If people think this fits th00e game style well, then it's cool with me. Also, I was wondering what other DMs do. Does the party just hang out in town while the wizard makes the item, then they go back to whatever dungeon they left off at, or some other method?

This makes it abundantly clear IMO that your DM is right on. If time constraints are part of the campaign, and everybody has fun w/ time constraints as part of the campagin, the DM should be making the item creation time be part of game-time. Hopefully, the DM took that into account when desiging the adventures and treasure and NPC's and stuff.

As for what the party does, I rarely have this come up. The few times it does come up, I usually just had the party hang around and do nothing (well, honing their skills, going to parties and sporting events, stuff like that).

I always gave those players a RP benny, something like a new contact at an embassy or the underworld or something. That way, there was some cost for the time the wizard or whatever spent away from the others.

edit - as for the xp and gold costs, yes, those are part of item creation. But the time is another cost that must be factored in. If time is important to the campaign, but you ignore it for item creation, you may as well ignore the xp costs or the gold costs as well.
Ringmereth
12-04-03, 04:23 PM Originally posted by Ringmereth

No- he didn't tell me before I took the feats. However, he will let me swap out CWI for a feat of my choice (I'm taking Improved Familiar)...

Yes, The_Heart, he will let me swap out my IC feats. He does allow item creation feats, but he has warned me and given the opportunity to switch feats (which I took), so basically item creation (besides scrolls and potions) is out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ringmereth 12-02-03, 11:06 PM	Well, I'm playing a wizard (the only wizard in our party). My DM just informed me of his house rule that any character crafting an item is not only paying XP and gold, but also has to effectively skip the game session. The time it takes to craft the item basically means my character is stuck at the mage's guild working, while everyone else is out getting XP and loot. Not only does it hurt my character, but it also means I don't play for 1 or more sessions, depending on what I'm crafting. If I'm working on a Staff of The Magi or something really powerful, I could be out of the group, more or less, for a month or more. My DM says that yes, it's annoying, but spellcasters shouldn't be magic item factories. He thinks that my PC should only be making special items (like a ring that gives me +2 INT, two extra 3rd level spells per day, and darkvision), not basic stuff that comes out of the DMG. So, what do you think of this? Is this a fair rule, or is it hurting my character unfairly? Thanx!
Koga:The ninja trick 12-02-03, 11:21 PM	I don't think it so much hurts the character as it does the player. Why should the party have to wait around cause their mage is making something cool? But that's no reason to stop you from showing up for a session. Perhaps you could play an npc or something.. If you take away the wizard's ability to milk item creation.. he's bassically just a waterd down sorcerer..
bard_4_life 12-02-03, 11:31 PM	WHy don't you just ask the rest of the party to stay in a town with you until you're finished? Everyone doing nothing=time going by fast=easy to make items. Just don't make too many or your DM may rule an "unfortunate accident".
Faeryl Zauvirr 12-02-03, 11:32 PM	Your DM is a moron.
Sephraem 12-02-03, 11:35 PM	I think I see where your DM is coming from. Firstly, the items in the DMG are so mundane - common, if you will. I think he's hoping you'll be wildly creative, and if not that, then at least thinking about adding personal touches to the items you want. I suspect he's hoping to restore a little mystery to mages and magic. Secondly, I share his frustration about spellcasters becoming magic item factories. With every joe able to churn out +1 swords, not only does it exacerbate the problem highlighted in my first point, but it also cheapens the whole idea of magic items altogether. Thirdly, it's obvious he wants to deter you as much as possible from taking time out to create magic items. Personally, I wouldn't do that to a player of mine. I suspect his intentions are entirely honourable, however. What options has he offered you to compensate for your character being out of the game for a considerable time? For example, has he said it would be okay for you to play another character until your mage comes back? Have you discussed it with your fellow players? Would they be prepared to take downtime in return for custom made magic items for them? Can you persuade them not to adventure while these items are being created? Try and convince them, perhaps, that you'll need guarding while you create these precious items for them. (This could even provide hooks into urban adventures if your DM is so inclined) In some senses, it seems to me that your DM is being quite generous in offering you the opportunity to custom design magic items perfectly tailoured to your character and his party, and in fact has a preference for you doing that. He probably realises that what he's asking of you is on meaner side of strict, and is compensating for it in other ways. I'm sure once you've talked it through with your DM and fellow players, it won't look quite so bleak. Good luck, and let me know how it all turns out. :)
Sephraem 12-02-03, 11:38 PM	Originally posted by Faeryl Zauvirr Your DM is a moron. Wow! Judgemental much? I do think the DM is being overly strict, but I don't think that makes him a moron. If I understand his position correctly, it seems quite well reasoned to me.
ThorvaldHafgrimsson 12-03-03, 01:30 AM	I agree with Sephraem. Talk to your DM and explain that since the classes are (theoretically) balanced with their core abilities, his reduction of a major Wizard ability could reduce the power of the Wizard class. See if he will either change his mind and allow campaign time to pass or allow some mitigating factor (Extra Class Skills, a single free Toughness Feat at first level, whatever) to balance the really serious restriction on a fundamental Wizard ability.
bolobaby 12-03-03, 02:03 AM	Option one is to do what someone already suggested: simply ask the rest of the party to wait for you. I doubt he'll have the entire party "skip the session" so he'll probably speed up your production process. Option two is to ask the DM to consider allowing you to use your Craft feats more like the Craft skill. That is, allow for partial progress in the creation process. If you consider a full days work as being 8 hours, then you could theoretically spend 2 hours a day and craft a one day item in 4 days. Instead of being idle for a full day, the party would agree to be idle for 2 hours a day for you. This could be accomplished at night when you bed down or whatnot. As long as you are uninterrupted, you gain partial process on your item. This should be a fair compromise if you consider the expense in both XP and gold (components, actually, which must be bought - you can't turn raw gold into magic items). Your DM might want to make you carry around a portable "lab" - much like an Alchemists Lab. This lab may weigh just as much - 40lbs - so I hope you have a horse to carry it in. Obviously, you aren't going to have the whole lab out at any given time, just the parts you need. Mortar and pestle to grind up gems; special tongs to hold volatile components; exotic candles for incantations. As far as only using the feats to make "special" items - that is BS. The feats allow you to make anything that falls into that category. If you want to make a Quaal's Feather Token, knock yourself out. Every item costs gold and XP, so you need to carefully consider how often you want to use these feats to create more mundane magical items. As a DM, I often try to give advantages to characters who take the item creation feats. They usually don't get used that often in a campaign that has a pressing storyline (as mine do), so I help out the crafters when I can. Occassionally, they'll run into arcane labs that create potions at +1 caster level or stuff like that. If your campaign is episodic instead of epic then you have much more time to create items. That's all well and good - create away - it'll cost you. If, however, your DM doesn't like the fact that you are getting so many magic items from your feats, then he should be smart and create adventures from the process! Looking to create a Wand of Fireballs? Sure... oh... except... you'll need the guano from a rare Fire Bat. Go hunt him down. The gold required to make an item represents components, so it's completely fair for the DM to simply say, "Sorry, that component isn't for sale in this location... you'll have to go get it yourself."
White Mage 12-03-03, 08:00 AM	Responding to the question "Is this reasonable?" I have two comments: 1) If the DM did not tell you before you took the feats it is unreasonable according to me. 2) The DM ususlly sets the flavour ot the campaign. That, more or less, is his job and right. Obviously you play in a unusually fastpaced campaign. It would not be my choice. As DM I give the PC's downtime between adventures to do stuff they want. From a roleplaying perspecive that does sound reasonable to me: why risk life and limb adventuring if you don't have the off time to enjoy the spoils and admiration?
pjackson 12-03-03, 09:35 AM	So long as he told you before you took the feats, and so long as it does not apply to a wizard making scrolls, it is reasonable.
Ringmereth 12-03-03, 04:56 PM	Thanks a lot for the input. I probably should have said that this campaign is set in a big city (1 million+ residents) and most of the adventures are within it (in sewers, warehouses, the graveyard district, etc). My DM also gives us loot specialized for our characters. For instance, a few weeks ago encounter, I got a Ring of Counterspelling and a scroll, the monk got silver masterwork Kamas, the priest got a Mace of Disruption, etc. And we get lots and lots of treasure. On average, we're getting several thousand GP per session. So I don't have to craft most things- we can just go buy them. No- he didn't tell me before I took the feats. However, he will let me swap out CWI for a feat of my choice (I'm taking Improved Familiar). Though I wanted to make stuff, he's justifying it from a roleplaying perspective- my PC went to the 'Dungeoneer's School of Wizardry,' so he was trained to kill stuff, not sit around building magic items. Also, we don't have much downtime, but that's just the nature of the campaign- he keeps stuff coming pretty fast. He will give me enough downtime to make stuff with my Alchemy skill, and I'm putting enough ranks into it that I can make most things in one day. I guess it's okay with me, since he gives out a lot more treasure that he should (my character has maybe 15k gp in gold and items, and I just got up to 5th level). It doesn't really underpower my PC much. Thanks for the opinions!
Psifon 12-03-03, 10:42 PM	I agree with Faeryl Zauvirr. Your DM is a moron. The reasons he is a moron are several: 1) He using DM fiat to solve a problem that is easily delt with in-game. If he wants to make an item creation hard, he can just put time constraints on the plot line. He is not creative enough to do this, so he is punishing you. Therefore he is a moron. 2) He is ignoring other resources at his disposal for magic item creation limits. For one, he can make it so that every item you create needs a special (rare) component, and therefore you need to adventure to find it. Again this would require flexibility and creativity on his part. Moron. 3) He is deliberately squelching the creativity of his players. Moron. 4) He has enacted a rule that he cannot enforce. If the rest of the party choses to sit around the inn until you are done making the item, there is nothing he can do about it. In doing so, he is inviting player revolt in his campign. His only recourse is to keep throwing contrived encounters at you in hopes that you give up making items. But note, you no longer need uninterrupted time to make an item (DMG pg 238). This kind of reactive stance puts conrol of the campaign into the hands of the players. Truely, this is moronic.
Ringmereth 12-03-03, 11:05 PM	Originally posted by Psifon I agree with Faeryl Zauvirr. Your DM is a moron. The reasons he is a moron are several: 1) He using DM fiat to solve a problem that is easily delt with in-game. If he wants to make an item creation hard, he can just put time constraints on the plot line. He is not creative enough to do this, so he is punishing you. Therefore he is a moron. ... 4) He has enacted a rule that he cannot enforce. If the rest of the party choses to sit around the inn until you are done making the item, there is nothing he can do about it. In doing so, he is inviting player revolt in his campign. His only recourse is to keep throwing contrived encounters at you in hopes that you give up making items. But note, you no longer need uninterrupted time to make an item (DMG pg 238). This kind of reactive stance puts conrol of the campaign into the hands of the players. Truely, this is moronic. Um... perhaps I forgot to say this, but there ARE time constraints on the plot line. If we sit around and wait for my PC to make an item, these will hurt us- he'll (the DM) either start throwing higher level stuff at us when I finish (not as a punishment, but to reflect that our enemies get a break from our attacks and have time to build up resources), or he'll just flat-out send an assassin to attack us, or notify us that something urgent is happening. 'Inviting player revolt'? No, he's not. It's just the flavor of the campaign that we don't have time to sit around and make magic items when we can just go out and buy them (and we get enough loot to be able to do this). By the way, he never said I couldn't make items- it's just that it'll hurt my character more than the item helps. I will check out pg 238 of the DMG. If it helps me, I'll take it up with the DM. I guess I sound defensive. I don't think my DM is a moron, though, just using an unusual policy. If people think this fits the game style well, then it's cool with me. Also, I was wondering what other DMs do. Does the party just hang out in town while the wizard makes the item, then they go back to whatever dungeon they left off at, or some other method?
Frodo Lives 12-03-03, 11:19 PM	It sounds like a reasonable DM to me. I know it stinks for a wizard to have extra penalties associated with Item creation, but it is a fairly reasonable rule. Ecspecaily if he is allowing potions and scrolls to be created normally and will let you swap feats if you want because of this ruling. I have always hated the 3.x rules for magic item creation. Permenant magic items should be special and powerful ones should not be easy to make. It also takes away a large portion of control of the game away from the DM. As a player I can pick and choose what magic items I want as long as I have enough money to me cheapens the excitement of finding that cool sword or magic ring. In your situation I wouldn't have a huge problem, just don't make a large number of magic items. If you can make potions and scrolls normally and you've got tons of loot otherwise, it shouldn't be a huge issue. Ask your DM for something to compensate if you feel your wizard is being unfairly limited, and enjoy playing.
the_heart 12-04-03, 07:19 AM	your DM may or may not be a moron, but that house rule is an unreasonable one IMO. the item creation rules already incorporate a penalty. If the DM doesn't want to deal with item creation(for any one of a number of reasons from the reasonable to the downright ridiculous) he should have just not allowed the feats to be taken. if there is no way to get him to change his mind, consider asking him to allow you to switch out IC feats for other feats.
DaemeonBlack 12-04-03, 03:47 PM	I feel it is very unfair and the DM needs to reexamine his plan. Wizards already get penalized making the items, they must spend money from their share of the loot and XP to create the item plus time (not usually a factor but he is making it so). If he makes you skip a game session you loose the XP of that adventure ON TOP of what you spent in creation, thus effectivly doubling the XP penalty already imposed. Already in my games the Wizard who makes an item here and there lags behind in XP slightly. With this method the DM will make the Wizard lag behind even further thus making the Wizard less powerful in the long run, punishing you for using your Wizard feats. I would not play a Wizard in this DM's game at all.
The Hanged Man 12-04-03, 04:04 PM	Originally posted by Ringmereth Um... perhaps I forgot to say this, but there ARE time constraints on the plot line. If we sit around and wait for my PC to make an item, these will hurt us- he'll (the DM) either start throwing higher level stuff at us when I finish (not as a punishment, but to reflect that our enemies get a break from our attacks and have time to build up resources), or he'll just flat-out send an assassin to attack us, or notify us that something urgent is happening. 'Inviting player revolt'? No, he's not. It's just the flavor of the campaign that we don't have time to sit around and make magic items when we can just go out and buy them (and we get enough loot to be able to do this). By the way, he never said I couldn't make items- it's just that it'll hurt my character more than the item helps. I will check out pg 238 of the DMG. If it helps me, I'll take it up with the DM. I guess I sound defensive. I don't think my DM is a moron, though, just using an unusual policy. If people think this fits th00e game style well, then it's cool with me. Also, I was wondering what other DMs do. Does the party just hang out in town while the wizard makes the item, then they go back to whatever dungeon they left off at, or some other method? This makes it abundantly clear IMO that your DM is right on. If time constraints are part of the campaign, and everybody has fun w/ time constraints as part of the campagin, the DM should be making the item creation time be part of game-time. Hopefully, the DM took that into account when desiging the adventures and treasure and NPC's and stuff. As for what the party does, I rarely have this come up. The few times it does come up, I usually just had the party hang around and do nothing (well, honing their skills, going to parties and sporting events, stuff like that). I always gave those players a RP benny, something like a new contact at an embassy or the underworld or something. That way, there was some cost for the time the wizard or whatever spent away from the others. edit - as for the xp and gold costs, yes, those are part of item creation. But the time is another cost that must be factored in. If time is important to the campaign, but you ignore it for item creation, you may as well ignore the xp costs or the gold costs as well.
Ringmereth 12-04-03, 04:23 PM	Originally posted by Ringmereth No- he didn't tell me before I took the feats. However, he will let me swap out CWI for a feat of my choice (I'm taking Improved Familiar)... Yes, The_Heart, he will let me swap out my IC feats. He does allow item creation feats, but he has warned me and given the opportunity to switch feats (which I took), so basically item creation (besides scrolls and potions) is out.