Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ultima0071 11-04-07, 07:50 PM	6th level Human Warblade Base Attack Bonus: +6/+1 Strength: 18 (+4) Feats: Weapon Focus (Greataxe) (+1 to hit) Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) (+2 to damage) Power Attack Main Maneuvers Bonecrusher Rapid Wolf Attack Blood in the Water (Stance) - Currently active Weapon +3 Flaming Burst Energy Surge Greataxe Combat Activate Bonecrusher and attempt a full attack. Score critical on both hits. 1d12x3 + 1d6 + 2d10 (from burst) + 4x3 (strength bonus) + 4d6 from bonecrusher + 1 (Blood in Water) PLUS ON SECOND ATTACK 1d12x3 + 1d6 + 2d10 (from burst) + 4x3 (strength bonus) + 2d6 (Rapid Wolf Attack) + 1 (Blood in Water) For a max of 186 DAMAGE! Then I can renew the maneuvers and start over.
Nadaka 11-04-07, 08:13 PM	No. Bone Crusher and Rabid Wolf Strike are standard actions. You only get one standard action per round, and can never combine it with a full round attack. You do not automatically critical on every hit, you only get a +10 bonus to confirm criticals and that is only if they fail a DC 13+str mod save throw. Without improved critical, thats only 5% of hits.
Killydd 11-04-07, 08:14 PM	Well, that's what you get when you make criticals with x3 or worse x4 weapons. But only about one hit in 20 will get that crit. Though where you got a weapon worth 4 times your by level wealth is beyond me. Oh, and don't forget that each of those attacks took a standard action(initiation action: 1 standard action which includes the actual attack made with it) so that actually took two turns.
FarrenCronwing 11-04-07, 08:15 PM	6th level Human Warblade Base Attack Bonus: +6/+1 Strength: 18 (+4) Feats: Weapon Focus (Greataxe) (+1 to hit) Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) (+2 to damage) Power Attack Main Maneuvers Bonecrusher Rapid Wolf Attack Blood in the Water (Stance) - Currently active Weapon +3 Flaming Burst Energy Surge Greataxe Combat Activate Bonecrusher and attempt a full attack. Score critical on both hits. 1d12x3 + 1d6 + 2d10 (from burst) + 4x3 (strength bonus) + 4d6 from bonecrusher + 1 (Blood in Water) PLUS ON SECOND ATTACK 1d12x3 + 1d6 + 2d10 (from burst) + 4x3 (strength bonus) + 2d6 (Rapid Wolf Attack) + 1 (Blood in Water) For a max of 186 DAMAGE! Then I can renew the maneuvers and start over. How'd you even afford that ****?
Mock26 11-04-07, 08:30 PM	It is only too much damage IF your character is so much more powerful than the rest of the characters that it adversely affects their enjoyment of the game. If, however, no one else in the group cares then there is nothing to worry about.
Kitep 11-04-07, 08:38 PM	What the others have said. But I'll also add your calcalations forgot: +3x3 (+3 greataxe) + 2x3 (weapon specialization) = +15 dmg each attack
runestar 11-04-07, 08:56 PM	It is only too much damage IF your character is so much more powerful than the rest of the characters that it adversely affects their enjoyment of the game. If, however, no one else in the group cares then there is nothing to worry about. On the flip side, it could be an indicator that it is them who may be too weak, if they appear to be overshadowed, and they are the ones who actually need retooling. But your eq definitely seems out of whack. The equivalent of a +5 weapon at 6th lv is way out of your suggested wealth guidelines. You should have a +1 greataxe at best.
Mock26 11-04-07, 09:18 PM	On the flip side, it could be an indicator that it is them who may be too weak, if they appear to be overshadowed, and they are the ones who actually need retooling. But your eq definitely seems out of whack. The equivalent of a +5 weapon at 6th lv is way out of your suggested wealth guidelines. You should have a +1 greataxe at best. That is true, but I think that the power level of the majority of the group needs to be taken into consideration. I'm not saying that people need to gimp their character and make it wimpy. But, if the rest of the group is playing at a specific power level then I would think it a bit selfish and rude if someone were to NOT take that into consideration when they created their character. While I firmly believe that players do have a so-called "right" to play the chracter of their choice they also have an obligation to the rest of their group and their enjoyment of the game. I actually do believe that when it comes to D&D the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.
Sinfire Titan 11-04-07, 11:14 PM	What the others have said. But I'll also add your calcalations forgot: +3x3 (+3 greataxe) + 2x3 (weapon specialization) = +15 dmg each attack No, he added right. The enhancement bonus and bonus from Weapon Spec do not get multiplied by a critical.
Nadaka 11-04-07, 11:18 PM	What? reread your critical rules. Everything except bonus dice get multiplied on a critical hit. enhancement bonus, strength bonus, weapon specialization, paladin smite, ranger favored enemy, every fixed bonus. But his "trick" just will not work. He can't get two strikes in a round. And he is very unlikely to critically hit several times in a row.
Asmodeur 11-05-07, 02:02 AM	First of all, you should have a +1 axe at your level, not the equivalent of +5 or whatever that monstrosity is. :) Anyway +6 bab +1 weapon focus +4 str +3 magic for a grand total of +14 tohit +6 str (twohander) +3 magic +2 spec for a grand total of +11 damage So, since bonecrusher is a standard action you will at best give: 1d12+11+1d6+4d6 for an average of 35 damage (max 53) with full power attack, that will rise to 47 damage (max 65) On a crit you will do (1d12+11)*3 +2d10 +1d6 +4d6 for an average of 81 (max 133) With full power attack that average (on a crit) will rise to 117 (169 max) I didnt include the blood in the water because I dont have my bo9 nearby, and can't recall what it does.
Nephlite 11-05-07, 08:57 AM	First of all, you should have a +1 axe at your level, not the equivalent of +5 or whatever that monstrosity is. :) Anyway +6 bab +1 weapon focus +4 str +3 magic for a grand total of +14 tohit +6 str (twohander) +3 magic +2 spec for a grand total of +11 damage So, since bonecrusher is a standard action you will at best give: 1d12+11+1d6+4d6 for an average of 35 damage (max 53) with full power attack, that will rise to 47 damage (max 65) On a crit you will do (1d12+11)*3 +2d10 +1d6 +4d6 for an average of 81 (max 133) With full power attack that average (on a crit) will rise to 117 (169 max) I didnt include the blood in the water because I dont have my bo9 nearby, and can't recall what it does. Blood in the Water only activates after critting: gives +1 hit/damage. So his first Crit wouldn't get it. Stacks with itself if get another Crit within time limit (must Crit every minute or full effect wears off).
Sezarious 11-05-07, 09:09 AM	What? reread your critical rules. Everything except bonus dice get multiplied on a critical hit. enhancement bonus, strength bonus, weapon specialization, paladin smite, ranger favored enemy, every fixed bonus. But his "trick" just will not work. He can't get two strikes in a round. And he is very unlikely to critically hit several times in a row. Well, no actually (and unfortunately). I think the decision was only recent but only the rolled damge (excluding extra little bonouses such as dirty fighting) is multiplied. Otherwise my level 6 Wizard could be doing up to 88 points of damage with his Falchion.
Empirate 11-05-07, 09:40 AM	From where do you have this information on critical damage??? It comes as total news to me. From the SRD: A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Emphasis mine. Sounds pretty clear to me. What "recent" source do you have?
Sinfire Titan 11-05-07, 09:51 AM	What? reread your critical rules. Everything except bonus dice get multiplied on a critical hit. enhancement bonus, strength bonus, weapon specialization, paladin smite, ranger favored enemy, every fixed bonus. But his "trick" just will not work. He can't get two strikes in a round. And he is very unlikely to critically hit several times in a row. No. Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Enhancement Bonuses, Weapon Spec, and other abilities do not get multiplied on a crit.
-Winter- 11-05-07, 09:57 AM	No. Half Orc, Barbarian 2/ftr4 (thats right, more then 2 fighter levels! *gasp*) Str 20. or 24 when raging. Mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge, power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization. Horse. Lance. To hit: +11 +7 str +2 Charging +1 High ground. +1 weapon focus. Damage: 3d8 + 72. (average: 82, max: 96, crit average: 142, crit max: 160) 1d8 +10 str. +12 power attack +2 weapon specialization. x3 spirited charge. ------ There. Now, Thanks to Winter's Bargain Barbarian Build with only a minimal investment (under 150gp) and with a more then 60% guaranteed reduction in books (PHB only) you too can one hit CR 13 beholders that are staring at you 100ft away! be cautious though, you need at least a 13 point buy and average starting gold! Soon You, can be holding that +5 weapon that is the envy of all you're friends adhering to the so called "CR system." and "wealth by level guidelines" One Satisfied customer retells his success story: "Thurg used to work moving bricks, Now Thurg no work no more and all puny ladies like my shineys" And thats not all: for those of you who are concerned about DR, we'll though in a free set of cold iron steak knives AND a cold iron lance for only three easy payments of a 20gp, 20gp! and if you purchase in the next 90 minutes we'll even supply a potion of magic weapon for incorporeal foes! And i know what some of you are thinking! Horses don't fit in dungeons! thats why the minds at Winter inc. have developed a Smaller model for those who don't have the space to keep a Half orc, The Two-Quater-Bargain-Barbarian-ling! For half the cost, we replace the orc half of the build with pure Ling! resulting in a smaller more cost effective dog or pony riding menace with a just a 15% reduction in damage output! *Disclaimer: Winter inc. does not accept responsibility for damages incurred by, to, near to, far from, or unrelated to the use or lack of use of our product. (can i have a plus +5 weapon too...?)
Yaeri 11-05-07, 10:19 AM	A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. All other sources on critical hits always talk about damage dice. It seems that in that first quote, a mistake has slipped in. Also that very first bolded part "with all your usual bonuses" seems to be very strange otherwise.
Phrennzy 11-05-07, 12:30 PM	A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. I find those two statements to be at odds with each other. Further, the exception makes it sound contrary to the way in which I have seen critical damage rolled since the game began. The exception makes it sounds like 'the weapon's normal damage' would consist solely of the base weapon damage, without any sort of bonus. So a critting longsword +2 would crit for 1d8+2+1d8. I've always done it as 1d8+2+1d8+2. We roll the damage for the weapon twice, with the exception of additional damage dice - they only get added in once.
Orenmir 11-05-07, 01:14 PM	Extra Damage Dice don't get multiplied for a crit. That Axe is overpowered/unbalancing for your level. Sorry about the echo.
Guardian1 11-05-07, 02:51 PM	No. Bone Crusher and Rabid Wolf Strike are standard actions. You only get one standard action per round, and can never combine it with a full round attack. You do not automatically critical on every hit, you only get a +10 bonus to confirm criticals and that is only if they fail a DC 13+str mod save throw. Without improved critical, thats only 5% of hits. Yeah, this looks like the player and the DM need to look at the rules for maneuvers. Unless it says otherwise in the maneuver description, they're full-round actions.
Phrennzy 11-05-07, 03:52 PM	I don't see that he is multiplying the extra damage on the crit. Its a flaming burst great axe. The crit range is x3, which means the burst is 2d10.
Orenmir 11-05-07, 05:28 PM	I don't see that he is multiplying the extra damage on the crit. Its a flaming burst great axe. The crit range is x3, which means the burst is 2d10. But, you're not allowed to multiply the regular d6 of fire damage.
Cartigan 11-05-07, 05:42 PM	How'd you even afford that ****? I think he invaded our campaign and stole our +4 Dagger of Detect Large Traps and Evil.
PhaedrusXY 11-05-07, 06:07 PM	Enhancement Bonuses, Weapon Spec, and other abilities do not get multiplied on a crit.You left out a very important word in your quotes, as pointed out already in a post above this, but which I want to emphasize. Did you do that on purpose? Those things absolutely do get multiplied on a crit. The only things that don't get multiplied are extra damage dice. Multiplying Damage Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. From here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage
Sinfire Titan 11-05-07, 06:50 PM	Yeah, this looks like the player and the DM need to look at the rules for maneuvers. Unless it says otherwise in the maneuver description, they're full-round actions. Most are Standard actions. Some are Swift/Immediate actions. Others are FRA.
aotrscommander 11-05-07, 07:01 PM	The PHB says: ...roll the damage two, three or four times, as indicated by it's critical multiplier (using all the applicable modifiers on each roll)...Exception, Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied... A critical hit means you roll your damage more than once, with all of your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together...Exception, Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied... Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue's sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation). The Rules Compendium (which, by design, overrules the PHB) states you ...roll your damage more than once, with all of your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. It further elucidates on Extra damage, noting that: Extra damage beyond a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by precision damage abilities...or the flaming property of a flaming sword, isn't multiplied when you score a critical hit. It further states in the following section of precision damage (which is defined as Sneak Attack and other abilities like it) If the bonus damage from a precision ability is expressed as extra dice, the damage from those dice is never multiplied when the attack recieves a damage multiplier (such as from a critical hit) (Emphasis mine in all of the above.) I think from all that it should be clear that only extra damage dice are not meant to be multiplied, and that flat bonuses, such as Weapon Spec and enhancement and pretty much anything else that's not extra dice falls into the category of 'your usual bonuses/applicable modifers' in both RAW and RAI. Hope that clears things up.
Kitep 11-06-07, 12:12 AM	Half Orc, Barbarian 2/ftr4 (thats right, more then 2 fighter levels! *gasp*) Str 20. or 24 when raging. Mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge, power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization. Horse. Lance. To hit: +11 +7 str +2 Charging +1 High ground. +1 weapon focus. Damage: 3d8 + 72. (average: 82, max: 96, crit average: 142, crit max: 160) 1d8 +10 str. +12 power attack +2 weapon specialization. x3 spirited charge. I like this, especially since it only uses the PHB (I've not invested scads of money buying all the various 3.5 books yet). But there are some things I don't understand. 1) I don't see BAC listed in your to-hit. So shouldn't it be: To hit= +6 (BAC) +7 (str) +2 (Charging) +1 (High ground) +1 (weapon focus) - 6 (power attack) = +11 total Ok, now I see why you didn't list BAC, since Power Attack cancelled it out. 2) Power Attack maxes out at BAC. So wouldn't your +12 damage be +6? 3) Why is your Str damage +10 instead of +7? So I think your damage is really: dmg = [ 1d8 (lance) + 7 (Str) + 6 (power attack) + 2 (weapon spec) ] x 3 (spirited charge) or dmg = 3d8 + 45, avg = 58, max = 69 When you crit, I think D&D math says x3 (crit) x3 (spirited charge) = x5 total So then, crit dmg = 5d8 + 75, avg = 97.5, max = 115 Did I misunderstand something? I do like your build :)
PhaedrusXY 11-06-07, 12:17 AM	He's wielding the weapon with both hands. That answers most of your questions, I think.
Yaeri 11-06-07, 02:31 AM	You left out a very important word in your quotes, as pointed out already in a post above this, but which I want to emphasize. Did you do that on purpose? Nope, he didn't. I admit, I thought the same thing at first. :embarrass They really made an error in that one part of the SRD. (All other parts talk about dice. Only that single one doesn't.)
-Winter- 11-06-07, 03:46 AM	I like this, especially since it only uses the PHB (I've not invested scads of money buying all the various 3.5 books yet). But there are some things I don't understand. 1) I don't see BAC listed in your to-hit. So shouldn't it be: To hit= +6 (BAC) +7 (str) +2 (Charging) +1 (High ground) +1 (weapon focus) - 6 (power attack) = +11 total Ok, now I see why you didn't list BAC, since Power Attack cancelled it out. 2) Power Attack maxes out at BAC. So wouldn't your +12 damage be +6? 3) Why is your Str damage +10 instead of +7? So I think your damage is really: dmg = [ 1d8 (lance) + 7 (Str) + 6 (power attack) + 2 (weapon spec) ] x 3 (spirited charge) or dmg = 3d8 + 45, avg = 58, max = 69 When you crit, I think D&D math says x3 (crit) x3 (spirited charge) = x5 total So then, crit dmg = 5d8 + 75, avg = 97.5, max = 115 Did I misunderstand something? I do like your build :) Thanks :) Although for actual play you'd probably be better off with say point blank shot and mounted archery, or Trample and Improved initiative instead of weapon focus and weapon specialization. Or just get more Barbarian levels. The only problem is taking horses into dungeons. or up mountains... or on a boat... 1.) Yeah power attacking BaB away. 2 & 3.) wielding weapon two handed, for 1.5x strength bonus and 2x powerattack
PhaedrusXY 11-06-07, 05:48 PM	The only problem is taking horses into dungeons. or up mountains... or on a boat...That's why halfling/gnome chargers on riding dogs are fun. :D
Kitep 11-06-07, 09:06 PM	2 & 3.) wielding weapon two handed, for 1.5x strength bonus and 2x powerattack Cool. I hadn't even considered the two-handed aspect, and never even knew that it applied 2x for powerattack. Now I do! Thanks.