Is Vow of Poverty "cheating?" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is Vow of Poverty "cheating?" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Endarrion
10-14-07, 08:26 PM Ok. I'm thinking of playing a monk with the Vow of Poverty feat.

Should I?

Some things are discouraged, if not downright "cheating." For instance, I told a fellow player not to take Divine Metamagic feats with her cleric because it's total cheese.

Should I follow my own example and not play a Vow of Poverty character? Or are there ways to play the character without being a munchkin?

Thanks for any replies!
Salla
10-14-07, 08:28 PM If your game gives out a typical amount of treasure, then the VoP is fine because you won't be overpowerful. The fact that you have to be Better Than Good may be a pain in the butt in some games, though.

Remember that the other PCs don't get your share of the loot; your share gets donated to worthy causes.
Endarrion
10-14-07, 08:31 PM Thanks for the quick reply.

It was my assumption that the party, with wealth appropriate to their level, would not be left behind by me.
Mock26
10-14-07, 08:40 PM Can anyone point me to an online source that details the Vow of Poverty? Thanks.
Salla
10-14-07, 08:46 PM Can anyone point me to an online source that details the Vow of Poverty? Thanks.

It's not SRD/OGL, so we really can't without breaking the CoC.

The short of it is that you give up virtually all material goods except for, say, clothing and a staff and little stuff, and in exchange gain the rough equivalence in bonuses and abilities you would have if you'd actually had the appropriate amount of stuff.
Crimson_Concerto
10-14-07, 10:00 PM Well, you see, the difference between Divine Meta-Magic and Vow of Poverty is that Divine Meta-Magic can be abused (Night Sticks, etc.) to make a character overpowered. So long as your party is getting standard average wealth for its level, as shown on the table in the DMG, then VoP is pretty impossible to abuse, and it isn't overpowered at all.
Wih
10-14-07, 10:01 PM Vow of Poverty is not 'cheating'. It is not being a munchkin, or very overpowered, as long as it's done correct. If it's done correctly, it's quite underwhelming, actually.
Your share of the wealth goes to donations, not to the party members. You don't get to choose your magic items, so miss out on lots of goodies. You can never get anything quite as specialized as any of your other party members.
Yes, you'll be quite good around 5th level, but once you start hitting 10th and higher, you'll find yourself lagging more and more behind the rest of the party. And on top of this, you lose the benefit of the feat utterly and completely with no way of getting it back if you ever commit One evil act. Just one. Even if it's for the greater good. Atonement wont get it back.

There are only two problems with the feat. One is a mechanical problem, and that' the bonus Exalted feats that you get - you'll run out of them at high levels if you pick up VoP early enough.
The other is that the bonuses continue over even when you're shapeshifted. If you're playing a druid, then yes it's kinda cheesy.

For more info on the problems presented with VoP, see the Save my Game articles on it: One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060609a) and Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a).

EDIT: I forgot my nice little summary for VoP - the only way it can ever be 'Overpowered' is if your GM is being stingy and not giving you enough Wealth by Character Level. So either it's underpowered, or your GM is screwing you around - your choice.
Endarrion
10-14-07, 10:11 PM Thanks everyone.

Ok, my gut reaction was that the feat was fine, but with my limited experience with it, and all the threads started over it, I figured I'd make sure and consult the wisdom of the boards.

Thanks guys!

Now if only I could have a NG monk... *sigh*
Crimson_Concerto
10-14-07, 10:16 PM Now if only I could have a NG monk... *sigh*Your DM doesn't house rule away that silly alignment restriction? Odd, almost every one I play with has done away with most alignment restriction in general. :P
Cartigan
10-14-07, 10:24 PM Your DM doesn't house rule away that silly alignment restriction? Odd, almost every one I play with has done away with most alignment restriction in general. :P

That nullifies the points for a lot of stuff.
Crimson_Concerto
10-14-07, 11:26 PM That nullifies the points for a lot of stuff.To avoid bringing this off-topic, I'll PM you...
Guardian1
10-15-07, 12:35 AM It's not SRD/OGL, so we really can't without breaking the CoC.

The short of it is that you give up virtually all material goods except for, say, clothing and a staff and little stuff, and in exchange gain the rough equivalence in bonuses and abilities you would have if you'd actually had the appropriate amount of stuff.

Yeah, the information for it is detailed in the BoED, along with the full ramifications of what taking the feat means. You know, the weapons you're allowed to use with it, the exceptions to the no magic rule (there are specific exceptions, and this is where they're shown), and everything else you'd need to know about it, along with a full explanation of all the sweet stuff you get from it. The explanation in the Feats chapter of the book doesn't do it full justice, you need to look in Chapter 2 of the BoED for that.

IMO, it's an interesting feat that can lead to some awesome combat moments and some very interesting roleplaying moments.
danielinthewolvesden
10-15-07, 12:48 AM Vow of Poverty is not 'cheating'. It is not being a munchkin, or very overpowered, as long as it's done correct. If it's done correctly, it's quite underwhelming, actually.

There are only two problems with the feat. One is a mechanical problem, and that' the bonus Exalted feats that you get - you'll run out of them at high levels if you pick up VoP early enough.

EDIT: I forgot my nice little summary for VoP - the only way it can ever be 'Overpowered' is if your GM is being stingy and not giving you enough Wealth by Character Level. So either it's underpowered, or your GM is screwing you around - your choice.

QFT. :clap:

And note, most Monks use CHA as a dump stat, and many of the best Exalted Feats require a decent CHA. So, for a Monk it's not cheesy at all. Not to mention a Monk is only average in power. Now, for a druid? Then yes, it starts to get cheesy.
Chibichibiko
10-15-07, 01:22 AM If your game gives out a typical amount of treasure, then the VoP is fine because you won't be overpowerful. The fact that you have to be Better Than Good may be a pain in the butt in some games, though.

Remember that the other PCs don't get your share of the loot; your share gets donated to worthy causes.

That doesn't mean the party gets nothing out of it, mind you. We had a monk take VoP in one campaign, and my rogue wouldn't stop hitting up those 'good causes' for favors, or bluffing to the monk that unworthy causes were actually worthy causes...setting up cons to intercept the money/goods... anything the monk wouldn't figure out was diverted back to the party bank. Worked out pretty well for a while until a failed bluff got the monk thinking about where all his donations went.
Cifer
10-15-07, 10:07 AM Now, for a druid? Then yes, it starts to get cheesy.
Depends on what splat books are allowed. As soon as you get to Wildling armor and other cool druid items, I'd consider a VoP-less druid more powerful.

However, make sure your party is ok with you taking the Vow. You will need their assistance since you have no way of getting e.g. Flight. On the other hand, they can now pick and choose their favorite gear out of the treasure pile - noone says that the donated stuff has to be what you would have chosen to keep. If, for example, you have another monk in the party, you can let him have the Amulet of Mighty Fists and donate the enchanted Full Plate noone of you can wear anyway.
Tytalus
10-15-07, 12:16 PM When playing a VoP monk with an average party and average loot, you can assume to be very strong in the lower levels, and on the weak side in the higher levels.

The latter part is especially pronounced when the players have a means to choose their items, e.g., if there's someone with an item creation feat (and enough downtime), or if the DM allows magic item shops or items made to order.
Nephlite
10-15-07, 01:32 PM It's not SRD/OGL, so we really can't without breaking the CoC.

The short of it is that you give up virtually all material goods except for, say, clothing and a staff and little stuff, and in exchange gain the rough equivalence in bonuses and abilities you would have if you'd actually had the appropriate amount of stuff.

Actually, it is simple weapons: with examples of a staff. You can have a Heavy Crossbow even if it costs a lot. But yeah, one day's trail rations/waterskin.
Simple weapons and charities are only place you can use your money (occasional food too).
Ziggaraut
10-15-07, 08:00 PM Wasn't it said somewhere that you had to keep your personal possesions down to a limit of 1gp or 5gp? No crossbow for that cheap.
Nephlite
10-15-07, 11:09 PM Wasn't it said somewhere that you had to keep your personal possesions down to a limit of 1gp or 5gp? No crossbow for that cheap.

Nope. That is a assumption. There is no price limit on the simple weapon.
Wih
10-15-07, 11:58 PM Vow of Poverty doesn't have a limit on the value of items, just on the specific items. I beileve you can have a non-masterwork, non-magical simple weapon (so yes, a crossbow is included. But then you dont get a melee weapon - take Improved Unarmed Strike).
Guardian1
10-16-07, 01:05 AM Actually, it is simple weapons: with examples of a staff. You can have a Heavy Crossbow even if it costs a lot. But yeah, one day's trail rations/waterskin.
Simple weapons and charities are only place you can use your money (occasional food too).

Eventually, you don't have to worry about the food either, since VoP gives you Sustenance (no need to eat or drink) at level 7. At level 12, you no longer need to sleep or even breathe! At least, I think those are the levels, I don't have access to my BoED at the moment.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-16-07, 03:47 PM If you told another player not to take Divine MEtamagic, you don't have the right to take Vow of Poverty.

You don't deserve preferential treatment.
Endarrion
10-16-07, 09:18 PM Oh it doesn't even matter now.

The campaign is over for us.
Cifer
10-17-07, 10:45 AM If you told another player not to take Divine MEtamagic, you don't have the right to take Vow of Poverty.
Except for the point where the Vow doesn't really strengthen the character - it's nowhere near comparable to DMM. However, I invite you to show why it would be.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-17-07, 11:02 AM Except for the point where the Vow doesn't really strengthen the character - it's nowhere near comparable to DMM. However, I invite you to show why it would be.

Basically, I have a very distinct hatred of players that boss other players around.

He's not the DM. He doesn't have the right to say someone can or can't take a feat. He overstepped his bounds when he told the other play he can't take a feat.

Therefore, he shouldn't be allowed to take a supplemental feat he wants as a reward for him being a busybody.

That is my argument.
Cifer
10-17-07, 11:27 AM Basically, I have a very distinct hatred of players that boss other players around.

He's not the DM. He doesn't have the right to say someone can or can't take a feat. He overstepped his bounds when he told the other play he can't take a feat.
I couldn't really read out of this that he forbade the other player to take the feat - how do you do that when you're not the DM, anyway? Personally, I'd also tell someone not to take levels in Frenzied Berserker or Planar Shepherd or use too much DMM/Persist cheese, regardless of whether I DM or not, simply for the reason I like having fun in the game, too.

Therefore, he shouldn't be allowed to take a supplemental feat he wants as a reward for him being a busybody.
"wants as a reward for him being a busybody"? Please explain that one...
To me, it read as if he simply wanted to take a feat and wondered if it was overpowered.
Endarrion
10-17-07, 11:31 AM To me, it read as if he simply wanted to take a feat and wondered if it was overpowered.

Bingo.

I know that DMM can be easily abused, and really even if it isn't it still adds substantial power (or more options at least) to an already powerful class (the cleric).

I have seen many arguments over VoP and wanted to know if it was like DMM: that someone would have to put forth effort NOT to abuse it.

It seems the consensus is that one has to try a little if one wants to abuse it. Which I have no plans of doing.
WayneTheGame
10-17-07, 12:31 PM Cheating? No, it's not cheating (after all, it's perfectly legal). Does it have the potential to be abused? Of course, but so does pretty much everything else in the game. VoP is fine as long as you do it in moderation and don't try to come up with one of the blatantly broken "I only took VoP for the benefits and can ignore any consequences" tricks.
danielinthewolvesden
10-17-07, 01:10 PM Oh it doesn't even matter now.

The campaign is over for us.

That will not stop them.:P
Legdiwena
10-18-07, 03:30 PM VoP doesn't say you can only have a single weapon and you can still be rich even with donating MOST of your money, it doesn't specify a limit on how much you can keep. Hire porters or party members to transport goods.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarrion 10-14-07, 08:26 PM	Ok. I'm thinking of playing a monk with the Vow of Poverty feat. Should I? Some things are discouraged, if not downright "cheating." For instance, I told a fellow player not to take Divine Metamagic feats with her cleric because it's total cheese. Should I follow my own example and not play a Vow of Poverty character? Or are there ways to play the character without being a munchkin? Thanks for any replies!
Salla 10-14-07, 08:28 PM	If your game gives out a typical amount of treasure, then the VoP is fine because you won't be overpowerful. The fact that you have to be Better Than Good may be a pain in the butt in some games, though. Remember that the other PCs don't get your share of the loot; your share gets donated to worthy causes.
Endarrion 10-14-07, 08:31 PM	Thanks for the quick reply. It was my assumption that the party, with wealth appropriate to their level, would not be left behind by me.
Mock26 10-14-07, 08:40 PM	Can anyone point me to an online source that details the Vow of Poverty? Thanks.
Salla 10-14-07, 08:46 PM	Can anyone point me to an online source that details the Vow of Poverty? Thanks. It's not SRD/OGL, so we really can't without breaking the CoC. The short of it is that you give up virtually all material goods except for, say, clothing and a staff and little stuff, and in exchange gain the rough equivalence in bonuses and abilities you would have if you'd actually had the appropriate amount of stuff.
Crimson_Concerto 10-14-07, 10:00 PM	Well, you see, the difference between Divine Meta-Magic and Vow of Poverty is that Divine Meta-Magic can be abused (Night Sticks, etc.) to make a character overpowered. So long as your party is getting standard average wealth for its level, as shown on the table in the DMG, then VoP is pretty impossible to abuse, and it isn't overpowered at all.
Wih 10-14-07, 10:01 PM	Vow of Poverty is not 'cheating'. It is not being a munchkin, or very overpowered, as long as it's done correct. If it's done correctly, it's quite underwhelming, actually. Your share of the wealth goes to donations, not to the party members. You don't get to choose your magic items, so miss out on lots of goodies. You can never get anything quite as specialized as any of your other party members. Yes, you'll be quite good around 5th level, but once you start hitting 10th and higher, you'll find yourself lagging more and more behind the rest of the party. And on top of this, you lose the benefit of the feat utterly and completely with no way of getting it back if you ever commit One evil act. Just one. Even if it's for the greater good. Atonement wont get it back. There are only two problems with the feat. One is a mechanical problem, and that' the bonus Exalted feats that you get - you'll run out of them at high levels if you pick up VoP early enough. The other is that the bonuses continue over even when you're shapeshifted. If you're playing a druid, then yes it's kinda cheesy. For more info on the problems presented with VoP, see the Save my Game articles on it: One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060609a) and Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a). EDIT: I forgot my nice little summary for VoP - the only way it can ever be 'Overpowered' is if your GM is being stingy and not giving you enough Wealth by Character Level. So either it's underpowered, or your GM is screwing you around - your choice.
Endarrion 10-14-07, 10:11 PM	Thanks everyone. Ok, my gut reaction was that the feat was fine, but with my limited experience with it, and all the threads started over it, I figured I'd make sure and consult the wisdom of the boards. Thanks guys! Now if only I could have a NG monk... sigh
Crimson_Concerto 10-14-07, 10:16 PM	Now if only I could have a NG monk... sighYour DM doesn't house rule away that silly alignment restriction? Odd, almost every one I play with has done away with most alignment restriction in general. :P
Cartigan 10-14-07, 10:24 PM	Your DM doesn't house rule away that silly alignment restriction? Odd, almost every one I play with has done away with most alignment restriction in general. :P That nullifies the points for a lot of stuff.
Crimson_Concerto 10-14-07, 11:26 PM	That nullifies the points for a lot of stuff.To avoid bringing this off-topic, I'll PM you...
Guardian1 10-15-07, 12:35 AM	It's not SRD/OGL, so we really can't without breaking the CoC. The short of it is that you give up virtually all material goods except for, say, clothing and a staff and little stuff, and in exchange gain the rough equivalence in bonuses and abilities you would have if you'd actually had the appropriate amount of stuff. Yeah, the information for it is detailed in the BoED, along with the full ramifications of what taking the feat means. You know, the weapons you're allowed to use with it, the exceptions to the no magic rule (there are specific exceptions, and this is where they're shown), and everything else you'd need to know about it, along with a full explanation of all the sweet stuff you get from it. The explanation in the Feats chapter of the book doesn't do it full justice, you need to look in Chapter 2 of the BoED for that. IMO, it's an interesting feat that can lead to some awesome combat moments and some very interesting roleplaying moments.
danielinthewolvesden 10-15-07, 12:48 AM	Vow of Poverty is not 'cheating'. It is not being a munchkin, or very overpowered, as long as it's done correct. If it's done correctly, it's quite underwhelming, actually. There are only two problems with the feat. One is a mechanical problem, and that' the bonus Exalted feats that you get - you'll run out of them at high levels if you pick up VoP early enough. EDIT: I forgot my nice little summary for VoP - the only way it can ever be 'Overpowered' is if your GM is being stingy and not giving you enough Wealth by Character Level. So either it's underpowered, or your GM is screwing you around - your choice. QFT. :clap: And note, most Monks use CHA as a dump stat, and many of the best Exalted Feats require a decent CHA. So, for a Monk it's not cheesy at all. Not to mention a Monk is only average in power. Now, for a druid? Then yes, it starts to get cheesy.
Chibichibiko 10-15-07, 01:22 AM	If your game gives out a typical amount of treasure, then the VoP is fine because you won't be overpowerful. The fact that you have to be Better Than Good may be a pain in the butt in some games, though. Remember that the other PCs don't get your share of the loot; your share gets donated to worthy causes. That doesn't mean the party gets nothing out of it, mind you. We had a monk take VoP in one campaign, and my rogue wouldn't stop hitting up those 'good causes' for favors, or bluffing to the monk that unworthy causes were actually worthy causes...setting up cons to intercept the money/goods... anything the monk wouldn't figure out was diverted back to the party bank. Worked out pretty well for a while until a failed bluff got the monk thinking about where all his donations went.
Cifer 10-15-07, 10:07 AM	Now, for a druid? Then yes, it starts to get cheesy. Depends on what splat books are allowed. As soon as you get to Wildling armor and other cool druid items, I'd consider a VoP-less druid more powerful. However, make sure your party is ok with you taking the Vow. You will need their assistance since you have no way of getting e.g. Flight. On the other hand, they can now pick and choose their favorite gear out of the treasure pile - noone says that the donated stuff has to be what you would have chosen to keep. If, for example, you have another monk in the party, you can let him have the Amulet of Mighty Fists and donate the enchanted Full Plate noone of you can wear anyway.
Tytalus 10-15-07, 12:16 PM	When playing a VoP monk with an average party and average loot, you can assume to be very strong in the lower levels, and on the weak side in the higher levels. The latter part is especially pronounced when the players have a means to choose their items, e.g., if there's someone with an item creation feat (and enough downtime), or if the DM allows magic item shops or items made to order.
Nephlite 10-15-07, 01:32 PM	It's not SRD/OGL, so we really can't without breaking the CoC. The short of it is that you give up virtually all material goods except for, say, clothing and a staff and little stuff, and in exchange gain the rough equivalence in bonuses and abilities you would have if you'd actually had the appropriate amount of stuff. Actually, it is simple weapons: with examples of a staff. You can have a Heavy Crossbow even if it costs a lot. But yeah, one day's trail rations/waterskin. Simple weapons and charities are only place you can use your money (occasional food too).
Ziggaraut 10-15-07, 08:00 PM	Wasn't it said somewhere that you had to keep your personal possesions down to a limit of 1gp or 5gp? No crossbow for that cheap.
Nephlite 10-15-07, 11:09 PM	Wasn't it said somewhere that you had to keep your personal possesions down to a limit of 1gp or 5gp? No crossbow for that cheap. Nope. That is a assumption. There is no price limit on the simple weapon.
Wih 10-15-07, 11:58 PM	Vow of Poverty doesn't have a limit on the value of items, just on the specific items. I beileve you can have a non-masterwork, non-magical simple weapon (so yes, a crossbow is included. But then you dont get a melee weapon - take Improved Unarmed Strike).
Guardian1 10-16-07, 01:05 AM	Actually, it is simple weapons: with examples of a staff. You can have a Heavy Crossbow even if it costs a lot. But yeah, one day's trail rations/waterskin. Simple weapons and charities are only place you can use your money (occasional food too). Eventually, you don't have to worry about the food either, since VoP gives you Sustenance (no need to eat or drink) at level 7. At level 12, you no longer need to sleep or even breathe! At least, I think those are the levels, I don't have access to my BoED at the moment.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-16-07, 03:47 PM	If you told another player not to take Divine MEtamagic, you don't have the right to take Vow of Poverty. You don't deserve preferential treatment.
Endarrion 10-16-07, 09:18 PM	Oh it doesn't even matter now. The campaign is over for us.
Cifer 10-17-07, 10:45 AM	If you told another player not to take Divine MEtamagic, you don't have the right to take Vow of Poverty. Except for the point where the Vow doesn't really strengthen the character - it's nowhere near comparable to DMM. However, I invite you to show why it would be.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-17-07, 11:02 AM	Except for the point where the Vow doesn't really strengthen the character - it's nowhere near comparable to DMM. However, I invite you to show why it would be. Basically, I have a very distinct hatred of players that boss other players around. He's not the DM. He doesn't have the right to say someone can or can't take a feat. He overstepped his bounds when he told the other play he can't take a feat. Therefore, he shouldn't be allowed to take a supplemental feat he wants as a reward for him being a busybody. That is my argument.
Cifer 10-17-07, 11:27 AM	Basically, I have a very distinct hatred of players that boss other players around. He's not the DM. He doesn't have the right to say someone can or can't take a feat. He overstepped his bounds when he told the other play he can't take a feat. I couldn't really read out of this that he forbade the other player to take the feat - how do you do that when you're not the DM, anyway? Personally, I'd also tell someone not to take levels in Frenzied Berserker or Planar Shepherd or use too much DMM/Persist cheese, regardless of whether I DM or not, simply for the reason I like having fun in the game, too. Therefore, he shouldn't be allowed to take a supplemental feat he wants as a reward for him being a busybody. "wants as a reward for him being a busybody"? Please explain that one... To me, it read as if he simply wanted to take a feat and wondered if it was overpowered.
Endarrion 10-17-07, 11:31 AM	To me, it read as if he simply wanted to take a feat and wondered if it was overpowered. Bingo. I know that DMM can be easily abused, and really even if it isn't it still adds substantial power (or more options at least) to an already powerful class (the cleric). I have seen many arguments over VoP and wanted to know if it was like DMM: that someone would have to put forth effort NOT to abuse it. It seems the consensus is that one has to try a little if one wants to abuse it. Which I have no plans of doing.
WayneTheGame 10-17-07, 12:31 PM	Cheating? No, it's not cheating (after all, it's perfectly legal). Does it have the potential to be abused? Of course, but so does pretty much everything else in the game. VoP is fine as long as you do it in moderation and don't try to come up with one of the blatantly broken "I only took VoP for the benefits and can ignore any consequences" tricks.
danielinthewolvesden 10-17-07, 01:10 PM	Oh it doesn't even matter now. The campaign is over for us. That will not stop them.:P
Legdiwena 10-18-07, 03:30 PM	VoP doesn't say you can only have a single weapon and you can still be rich even with donating MOST of your money, it doesn't specify a limit on how much you can keep. Hire porters or party members to transport goods.