Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Belledia 09-17-07, 01:12 PM	So I'm playing in a campaign with a Fighter, Ranger/Assassin, Cleric, and myself a 12th Monk/1 Cleric (heading down Sacred Fist path). Up till now, our party has been... underwhelmingly progressing with gear and whatnot because the DM was rolling random for gear. After a few posts on here he decided he'd allow us access to a magical fair to purchase some magical items (we all had 110,000 gold pieces each). Im about to branch into Sacred Fist so I picked up a +4 wisdom item, a +2 amulet of mighty fists, a +3 AC bracers, and a +2 saving throws cloak. Those 4 items cost me 110,000 gold. I didn't really care because its all I really wanted and it replaced my previously awesome gear of a +1ac cloak and a +2ar bracers. After all was said and done, I was sitting at 23 ac (24 w dodge vs one target), 18/18/18/13 flurry of blows and +7 dmg from my str bonus (5+2 from amulet). I picked up the Improved Natural Weapons feat based on the forum posts here saying it was allowed so it boosted my dmg from 2d6 to 3d6 +7. My DM has a real problem with this. He thinks its unbalancing the group and that Im 'power hungry' with the monk. Our fighter recently picked up some ridiculous 2h sword and set his spec up for 2h (which was good) and hes now doing like 20 attack rolls for 2d8 + 18-36 dmg dependent on his power attack. He has some haste boots so in a bad fight hes doing this 3x a round. If he wants to, he can whip his shield out and go defensive and get around 35ac, but w his 2h out hes at 23 ac. The DMs point is that my monk should not have the same AC as the fighter (whos 11th level), nor should I be able to out damage him. My feeling on this is the monk is a light tank, with less HP, less feats, less overall options when compared to a fighter. I sacrifice survivability for the ability to do some great damage. At present I can do 18/18/18/13 at 3d6+7. Im 1st level cleric with the force/strength domains as well. Naturally I took mage armor as a spell from force so Im sitting at 27 ac in a bad fight. I can also invoke a 'Feat of Strength' once a day to add my character level to my dmg for ONE ROUND. I am worried that the first time I do this and unleash flurry of blows at 23/23/23/18 for 3d6+12 his head is going to explode and hes going to make me remove the feat. At 20th level Imp Natural Weapon will move me from 3d8 to 4d8. Its a 25% increase or an average of 4 points of damage extra. This to me doesn't seem gamebreaking. I also want to mention that anything with any kind of damage reduction basically halves my dmg at least. By speccing into sacred fist, I am basically intending of buffing myself/providing some magical protection that my character currently lacks, while keeping the bulk of my fighting abilities intact. Am I wrong in thinking that the monk is intended to be a heavy damage class? I dont like my DM saying that if he 'doesnt like' the feat hes going to make me remove it. I know the DM rules go but wtf if theres no reason for it why the hell would it be done? Any help here?
Kraz 09-17-07, 01:38 PM	Ask your DM to let you respec your character into a pure cleric if he doesn't like the build you have going on, then you could show him what real damage is. Alternatively just don't flurry all the time while in melee. That'd bring your total damage down a bit, and maybe satisfy your DM. You'd still be doing an ok amount of damage, but not at the level that you are doing currently.
Relics 09-17-07, 01:45 PM	Numbers are fine, casters are doing far more at your level across more enemies. He needs to cry less about approved game rules and just find better ways to cheat to make you feel some pain now and again.
Gandalf the White 09-17-07, 01:55 PM	(Original First Line edited out in face of overwhelming mathematics.) Now for your trouble, Talk to your DM, a monk will as he progresses deal out more damage with unarmed combat than the fighter of the same level will with a sword, that is a fact of life in the class builds. However, if he has sense he can take advantage of the DR of certain creatures that your fists can't overcome, etc. You need to show your DM there are things he can do (short of stripping you of feats and class choice) to keep his game balanced in spite of your monk's fighting prowess.
rironin 09-17-07, 02:08 PM	The monk is an unbalanced class, at higher levels he's supposeed to be a capable mage killer. Now for your trouble, Talk to your DM, a monk will as he progresses deal out more damage with unarmed combat than the fighter of the same level will with a sword, that is a fact of life in the class builds. However, if he has sense he can take advantage of the DR of certain creatures that your fists can't overcome, etc. You need to show your DM there are things he can do (short of stripping you of feats and class choice) to keep his game balanced in spite of your monk's fighting prowess.I am neither a master of monks nor of melee characters in general, but I'm fairly sure that most people on these boards don't share your opinion on monks being unbalanced. I've heard very few people claim that monks are overpowered (and quite a few claim the opposite), and of those that have, I don't recall hearing persuasive arguments. Even if a monk were able to out-damage a fighter, the most maligned and laughed-at core class in 3.5, you can't be saying that monks out-melee all the other good melee options out there. As a previous poster pointed out, wizards and straight casters will start to pull ahead of melee characters at this point anyways. So where does that leave the monk? Hardly a game-breaking build, says I. Belledia, I think your DM is getting his feathers ruffled over nothing. Maybe you just haven't gotten to some of the tougher creatures out there that will cause difficulties for the monk, and you've had an easy time of it so far. Not sure. Kind of feels like your DM is just afraid of the PCs succeeding too much.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-17-07, 03:05 PM	Even if a monk were able to out-damage a fighter, They can't, for the record. Simply shown, really. Now, let's take a 20th level monk. 25 point buy. 14 in strength. Add 6 for a belt, so 20 strength. Add an amulet of mighty fists +5. Add Improved Natural Attack. Total damage on one attack is 4d8+10, or 28 on average. Now take a 20th level Fighter. 25 point buy. 15 in Strength. +5 for levels, +6 for belt. Total of 26. +5 greatsword. Weapon Spec, and Greater Weapon Spec. Total damage on one attack is 2d6+21, or 28 on average. Now, let's look at the attack bonus. Let's be generous and say that the monk put his 15 in Dex, added 5 from level, and had gloves for another +6. Let's be even more generous and give him Weapon Finesse. Hell, let's give him Weapon Focus. That comes out to a total of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 on a full attack, when flurrying. Now the Fighter. Of course, he has Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. So he has +35/+30/+25/+20. Seems like not much of an improvement, right? Well, let's put it into action. Let's take a balor. AC 35. DR 15/cold iron and good. Now, under no circumstances can the monk beat that DR without outside help. The Fighter can if he chooses to spend his money on a +5 holy cold iron greatsword. But, let's continue to be nice to the monk and say that the Fighter didn't do that. (I've been really nice to the monk, by the way. By 20th level, the fighter will most likely have an inherent bonus to Strength. I didn't allow the Fighter anything outside of core, even though his best stuff is there.) Anyways, AC 35, DR 15/cold iron and good. Monk hits that on a 6 or better with the first three attacks, 11 or better with the fourth attack, and 16 or better with the fifth. Fighter hits that on anything but a 1 on the first attack, a 5 or better on the next attack, a 10 or better on the one after that, and a 15 or better on the final attack. So, let's calculate damage. Monk: Average damage per attack after DR = 13. So, it is .75(13) + .75(13) + .75(13) + .5(13) + .25(13), for a total of 39 average damage per round. Fighter: Average damage per attack after DR = 13. So, it is .95(13) + .8(13) + .55(13) + .3(13), for a total of 33.8 average damage per round. But wait! The Fighter has Power Attack! Let's see what happens with Power Attack in the mixture. PA for 1: DPA = 15; .95(15) + .75(15) + .5(15) + .25(15) = 36.75 DPR. PA for 2: DPA = 17; .95(17) + .7(17) + .45(17) + .2(17) = 39.1 DPR. PA for 3: DPA = 19; .9(19) + .65(19) + .4(19) + .15(19) = 39.9 DPR. Power Attack for 3 is the most damaging scenario, with 0.05 damage less than the monk. (edit: I made an error in my calculations. The Fighter beats the monk at PA for 2. PA for 3 and PA for 4 are tied at this point for highest) However, there's one thing missing from these calculations. Critical hits. The monk will most likely have 20/X2. The Fighter will have 17-20/X2. Will that provide enough of a boost to beat the 0.05 difference? Yes, it will. I can show it. Monk: The actual formula will be difficult, but it runs like this. (((0.25*0) + (0.7*13) + (((0.05)0.25)13) + (((0.05)0.75)41))3) + ((0.5*0) + (0.45*13) + (((0.05)0.5)13) + (((0.05)0.5)41)) + ((0.75*0) + (0.2*13) + (((0.05)0.75)13) + (((0.05)0.25)41)) = x Now, I'll post this to make sure I don't lose it, and work on figuring out what x is. Then I'll do the Fighter. Or try. It's going to take quite awhile. Anyways, the monk's average DPR including criticals against the balor is... 43.2 damage. The Fighter. Well, this is going to be complex. I'll do it one attack at a time. I'll use the PA for three scenario. First attack: +32 bonus. Hits on a 3 or better. Formula will be (.1*0) + (.7*19) + (((.2).1)19) + (((.2).9)53). Total average damage for that attack? 23.22. Second attack: +27 bonus. Hits on a 8 or better. Formula will be (.35*0) + (.45*19) + (((.2).35)19) + (((.2).65)53). Total average damage for that attack? 16.77. Third Attack: +22 bonus. Hits on a 13 or better. Formula will be (.6*0) + (.2*19) + (((.2).6)19) + (((.2).4)53). Total average damage for that attack? 10.32. Fourth Attack: +17 bonus. Hits on an 18 or better. Formula will be (.85*0) + (((.15).85)19) + (((.15).15)53). Total average damage for that attack? 3.615. Total average damage for all four attacks? 53.925 damage. Beats the monk by over ten damage.
Sunblast 09-17-07, 03:29 PM	At present I can do 18/18/18/13 at 3d6+7. Im 1st level cleric with the force/strength domains as well. Naturally I took mage armor as a spell from force so Im sitting at 27 ac in a bad fight. I can also invoke a 'Feat of Strength' once a day to add my character level to my dmg for ONE ROUND. I am worried that the first time I do this and unleash flurry of blows at 23/23/23/18 for 3d6+12 his head is going to explode and hes going to make me remove the feat. Nah, he won't even notice the difference. Seriously, who notices a +1 bonus to STR for one lousy round? After all, the strength adds your cleric level, not your whole freakin' character level! STRENGTH DOMAIN Granted Power: You can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to your cleric level. Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable once per day.
Thubby 09-17-07, 03:41 PM	The DMs point is that my monk should not have the same AC as the fighter (whos 11th level), nor should I be able to out damage him. My feeling on this is the monk is a light tank, with less HP, less feats, less overall options when compared to a fighter. I sacrifice survivability for the ability to do some great damage. this is the part i have a problem with. its none of his damn business, what he thinks a monk should or shouldnt be is irrelevant. you have decided you want to be a light tank, then go for it, the only thing the DM should object to about this is that your overpowered. (your not, as you are being outperformed by the fighter) anything about "but a monk shouldn't be that" is retarded.
Belledia 09-17-07, 04:10 PM	Now we can only see whether any of this mathematical proof can tell the guy to calm down and let me enjoy my monk. My bad on the cleric levels thing, but it does make sense that its Cleric level. His arguments typically always begin with 'your monk shouldn't be able to __________' so it is based on a preconceived notion of what monks should be able to do. The class has been a total bore to play for 12 levels and is only now starting to get fun since Im crossspeccing.
Fraglan 09-17-07, 04:21 PM	I have no idea how to get to them with the new site and all, but in the FAQ I believe it states that you cannot use both flurry and the Improved Natural Attack feat at the sametime. Might want to check that out.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-17-07, 04:27 PM	I have no idea how to get to them with the new site and all, but in the FAQ I believe it states that you cannot use both flurry and the Improved Natural Attack feat at the sametime. Might want to check that out. That's not right. You are confused.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-07, 06:23 PM	Your DM sounds like he doesn't like monks, doesn't understand monks, and/or has some silly preconcieved notions of what they should and shouldn't be able to do. Monk's have good defenses, but are typically kind of weak on everything else. I think the best thing you can do is ask him politely to lighten up and stop trying to weaken your character. I doubt it will work, but good luck.
LordTarmos 09-17-07, 07:12 PM	Now we can only see whether any of this mathematical proof can tell the guy to calm down and let me enjoy my monk. My bad on the cleric levels thing, but it does make sense that its Cleric level. His arguments typically always begin with 'your monk shouldn't be able to __________' so it is based on a preconceived notion of what monks should be able to do. The class has been a total bore to play for 12 levels and is only now starting to get fun since Im crossspeccing. All i have to say to your dm is welcome to 3.5, feats and abilities make it so that you can chose to make your monk whatever you want him to be if you want him to tank feats can help him tank. You want ac feats and items can build your ac. If he thinks the fighters ac should be higher than yours my question is whats wrong with the fighters build. ( the fighters ac would be higher if he was not wielding 2 handed he can take more feats to become more powerful sounds like your fighter needs help your character sounds fine for your level.Not a bad little monk.
Carmine_the_Wolf 09-18-07, 06:28 AM	I never understand DMs that take this kind of attitude with player's choices. The build doesn't sound too much and by the time you're getting to that lvl you need to be dealing a good amount of damage as a melee combatant. A fighter will do that with a weapon and a monk with hands and fists. One of the games I'm running at the moment features a half-dragon monk with strength of 25 and the multi-attack feat; the player even chose to give up the breathweapon and wings himself in order to keep game balance! But even if he'd chosen to keep them I wouldn't have overruled him as that's his choice. I mentioned once before a friend of mine who had a 2nd Ed halfling rogue ruined by the fact that the DM was convinced that all rogues were thieves and scoundrels when in fact the player was playing the character as an acrobat and not a burglar. The DM insisted on advising the other players that they shouldn't trust the halfling or accept any help he offered them!
TheMonk 09-18-07, 06:52 AM	Lol your DM doesn't allow such damage? What would happen if I played my monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist/abj champion who could do something like 400+ damage in a full round? He'd freak out. Your DM is a bit out of line. And if he thinks that's too much damage, then just tell him the fighter does even more damage than you. And has more HP. And more AC.
Eikre 09-18-07, 07:23 AM	Someone already noted that the Feat Of Strength only gives you +1 STR for that one round, so I thought I would weight in with this: Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor don't stack. Your AC when Mage Armor is active is 24, or 25 against the Dodge-designated opponent.
perdera 09-18-07, 11:16 AM	Someone already noted that the Feat Of Strength only gives you +1 STR for that one round, so I thought I would weight in with this: Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor don't stack. Your AC when Mage Armor is active is 24, or 25 against the Dodge-designated opponent. Good catch, I totally glossed over that. It'd be interesting for the OP to post a numbers breakdown for his ToHit, AC, Damage, and Saves. Right there shaving 3 AC off him (due to stacking Bracers and Mage Armor) should be a pretty big step in placating his DM.
Belledia 09-18-07, 11:44 AM	Yeah without the mage armor stacking it hurts me a little.... It would only net me +1 since my bracers are +3. So assuming mage armor is up Im at 24 AC, 25 w dodge vs one target per round. My to hits are 18/18/18/13 on a full flurry of blows. Saving throws are 14/14/14. Damage per hit is 3d6+7 (5 from str and 2 from amulet).
perdera 09-18-07, 12:34 PM	Yeah without the mage armor stacking it hurts me a little.... It would only net me +1 since my bracers are +3. So assuming mage armor is up Im at 24 AC, 25 w dodge vs one target per round. My to hits are 18/18/18/13 on a full flurry of blows. Saving throws are 14/14/14. Damage per hit is 3d6+7 (5 from str and 2 from amulet). Well, a numbers breakdown would involve showing how you got to the those numbers. It's just that usually when I find a player is out of whack a quick character audit brings to light some mistakes or illegal stacking of bonuses that brings them back in line. Your attacks are well within the realm of possibility: 9 BaB, +5 Strength, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Amulet...well, that's +17 at least. Your saves seem odd to me. A 12 Monk/1 Cleric (with +2 Resistance Cloak) has base saves of 12/10/12...so from the saves you've said you have (14/14/14), I can infer you you have a +2 Fort mod, +4 Dex mod, and +2 Wis mod (Really that low? You just bought a +4 Wis item.) So then I can infer your AC: 10 + 4 Dex + 2 Wis + 4 Mage Armor...I'm only coming up with a 20 AC + Dodge. Anyways, it's alot easier if you just show how you arrived at the numbers you're showing. Something is off.
Belledia 09-18-07, 01:01 PM	Well, a numbers breakdown would involve showing how you got to the those numbers. It's just that usually when I find a player is out of whack a quick character audit brings to light some mistakes or illegal stacking of bonuses that brings them back in line. Your attacks are well within the realm of possibility: 9 BaB, +5 Strength, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Amulet...well, that's +17 at least. Your saves seem odd to me. A 12 Monk/1 Cleric (with +2 Resistance Cloak) has base saves of 12/10/12...so from the saves you've said you have (14/14/14), I can infer you you have a +2 Fort mod, +4 Dex mod, and +2 Wis mod (Really that low? You just bought a +4 Wis item.) So then I can infer your AC: 10 + 4 Dex + 2 Wis + 4 Mage Armor...I'm only coming up with a 20 AC + Dodge. Anyways, it's alot easier if you just show how you arrived at the numbers you're showing. Something is off. You got my save modifiers bang on, 4 dex, and originally 2 wis and fort. They actually changed with my items that I picked up. So I think my new save modifiers are 15/14/16. My wisdom is at 19 now for a +4 modifier after getting the +4 wisdom item (originally 15). My Con is 17 for a +3 modifier. Str is 20 for a +5 modifier. Dex is 18 for a +4 modifier. By my calculations, my AC is 10 base + 4 dex + 4 wisdom mod + 3 from bracers and then +2 from being a monk (monk gets periodic AC increases). This puts me at 23 base with 24 dodge, or 24 base with mage armor up. I think my attack modifiers are actually a little bit lower since by my math its 9 + 5 + 2 for 16 base. I previously had a +2ar bracer which I replaced w the amulet but it wouldnt have gotten me an increase so I think thats a mistake for me. My ARs should be 16/16/16/11 then.
perdera 09-18-07, 02:28 PM	Cool. I'd like to think with those new numbers your DM will be a little more accepting. -3 (situational) AC and -2 ToHit is quite an adjustment downward. I have to wonder what the Fighter wasted his 110,000 gold on. Just +5 Mithral Full Plate (about 35,000 gold and a 16 Dex) would get him up to 26 AC...or not Mithral for about 26,000gp and 24AC. Add a shield, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor and go nuts...as far as I see it you're a pretty normal core Monk, and he's a pretty crappy core Fighter...so yeah, normal Monk = crappy Fighter, that seems right to me. He coulda gone nuts on a crazy custom weapon. You can't be held responsible for other peoples crappy characters, especially when you're entirely core.
Fraglan 09-18-07, 02:39 PM	That's not right. You are confused. My apologies then. I read one of those monster threads about Monks and INA the other day.
LordBOB777 09-19-07, 01:44 PM	I do not believe the OP had a list of approved books that he/she has access to, though most of it seems to be core. I remember a suggestion of building a straight Cleric build to show what you could do. So far I see nothing that any regular DM would throw a fit at. What you could do it make a quick list of things you could be doing. Enlarge Person, Being a Warforged (for a few useful items), other classes that up your monk level. Dont forget about Tomb of Battle for a feat or two. Or a Monk's Belt for that fact. The point is, your DM has SOOO many ways of dealing with a monk, and should be concerned with far greater things than your monk damage
wonlee76 09-19-07, 03:27 PM	They can't, for the record. I'm pretty certain someone could design a monk that can easily outdamage a fighter but it takes a monk/spellcaster type to pull it off and I'm not sure what the BAB would be. Basically the monk would need Arcane Strike (to compensate for the lower BAB) and the Greater Mighty Wallop Spell (to basically get 12d8 unarmed strike damage all day long if your DM is stupid enough not to change the 1 hour/level duration). 12d8 = Average of 54 damage per hit. Add in the other usual bonuses and I could see a monk dishing out on average 65+ damage per hit. As to the OP: Mathematically, INA is a pretty cheesy feat in the hands of a monk. There's no other +damage feat that gives such a great constant boost to damage. At your present level, the difference is minor (anextra +3.5 damage on average) but when you hit level 20 (or earlier with the right feats and magical items) 2d10 jumps up to 4d8. A difference of +7 difference on average. With respect to you vs. the fighter... I don't see the problem here. The fighter should have a better or equal AC than your monk (with the exception of touch AC) and should be doing better damage or at the very least, more consistent damage since he should have a better chance to hit than you. I think your DM is making a mountain out of a molehill. Flurry of Blows is fondly called Flurry of misses in the campaign I plan in for a reason. :P Its great if all your attacks hit but the reality is, it might improve your damage output a bit due to the extra rolls but ultimately you still need to hit and with a Monk's BAB, that's a problem to do on a consistent basis.
calronmoonflower 09-20-07, 03:29 AM	Unless expertly built fighter suck. Really "OMG! It's stronger than a fighter." should never be a logical argument for anything being overpowered. This is simply because at the same level of optimization just about EVERY SINGLE CLASS out does a fighter. Fighter are the low end of the stick that you should measure other classes by. If he really thinks your monk is broken point him to the optimization boards (the high end of the stick) and let him look at some of the builds there.
Burlane 09-20-07, 10:09 AM	Raymond_Luxury_Yacht, I think your mathematics are slightly amiss..... If you took a level 20 Fighter with the following, - 25 Strength - Greatsword +5 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) - Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) Then the fighters full attack would be, ** Greatsword +34/+29/+24/+19 at (2d6+19/19-20x2) Now let us take a Level 20 Monk with the following, - 20 Strength - 26 Dexterity - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 - Improved Natural Weapon Then the monks full attack would be, ** Flurry of Blows +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 at (4d8+10/20x2) also note without Improved Natural Attack the monk would be, ** Flurry of Blows +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 at (2d10+10/20x2) Let us put both the Fighter and the Monk up against the Balor mentioned in your mathematical calculations. The statistics on the Balor are as follows, HP: 290 AC: 35 DR: 15/cold iron and good So, let us now compare what would happen in 3 different scenarios. The first with the Level 20 Fighter fighting the Balor, the second with the Level 20 Monk without Improved Natural Attack fighting the Balor and the third with the Level 20 Monk with Improved Natural Attack fighting the Balor. For this test we will look at the results from 20,000 rounds of combat done through a C++ program I have created. (Which I will state is rather nice for determining damage per round for any class so if anyone wants the program just private message me). Anyways, Lets put these 3 scenarios to the test. 20,000 rounds of combat, lets see what happens. ------------------------------------------ TEST #1 Fighter Level 20 ------------------------------------------ Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 46054 Number of Misses 33946 Number of Critical Hits is 2302 Number of Natural 1 is 4050 Accuracy 57.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 531581 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 26.6 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 11.5 Damage ------------------------------------------ TEST #2 Monk Level 20 (without Improved Natural Attack) ------------------------------------------ Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 2d10+10 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 54827 Number of Misses 45173 Number of Critical Hits is 2761 Number of Natural 1 is 5032 Accuracy 54.8% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 355902 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 17.8 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 6.5 Damage ------------------------------------------ TEST #3 Monk Level 20 (with Improved Natural Attack) ------------------------------------------ Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 4d8+10 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 55087 Number of Misses 44913 Number of Critical Hits is 2759 Number of Natural 1 is 4915 Accuracy 55.1% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 751906 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 37.6 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 13.6 Damage Ahhh, Now unless the numbers lie, which in my experience as an engineer they usually don't. It looks as though the Monk with Improved Natural Attack actually does out damage Fighter by a whopping 11.0 Damage per round. Even with the dreaded damage reduction everyone was crying about. Now where am I going with this ? Ah, well here it is. I am the DM for the game Belledia is involved in. I understand Monk's perfectly for those who stated that A.) I either hate Monk's or B.) I don't understand Monk's. I've been DM'ing for over 14 years, I have alot of experience with pleasing players and watching them succeed and strengthening their characters over years of adventuring. I also have alot of experience with balance. Oh my god. Yes I said it. Balance. The Fighter, The most laughed at class as some may put it is not overly broken. The Fighter as shown above, can actually out damage a normal monk versus the Balor. Now, should the Monk, who has Spell Resistance, Personal Dimensional Door, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Disease, Improved Evasion, Ki Strike, Still Mind, Fast Movement, Wholeness of the Body, Quivering Palm, Perfect Self, etc. be able to out damage the one class in my opinion who exists for one purpose, damage ? My answer is no. I know 1/2 of you players think "Improved Natural Attack" is the best thing since sliced bread. I know alot of you may play monks and DM yourself. But, I think that no one single feat alone, should beable to passively increase someone's overall damage by 31.2%. (Note its actually 211% damage increase versus the Balor) This damage increase for one single feat is ridiculous in my opinion. As stated earlier, "But Cleric's and Caster's are hitting that hard by that level". Yes thats true, but they had to suffer and build up to it, with lower hit points and not the same abilities throughout their careers, thus making them balanced. In my mind, the monk is perfectly balanced without the use of "Improved Natural Attack". In my mind the Feat is a exploit. I will state that no Monk in my campaign will ever be allowed that feat. Call me mean, Call me unfair, Call it cheating. The number's speak for themselves. Besides, their are ways to get the monk hitting that hard. Cast "Enlarge Person" on the monk for starters then he/she is hitting as if he/she had the feat. There are plenty of ways to increase damage and still have fun and still maintain Balance. Anyways, Its my opinion. I'm sure there are few others that share it, but I'm concrete on my decision. Let the flames begin!!!!! Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 10:38 AM	Something funny I just thought of was this, Say the monk did that Improved Natural Attack. Say Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person was applied to the Monk, Look what happens in 20000 rounds of combat now, ----------------------------------------- TEST #4 Level 20 Monk -Improved Natural Attack -Enlarge Person -Bull's Strength ----------------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 6d8+13 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 54940 Number of Misses 45060 Number of Critical Hits is 2832 Number of Natural 1 is 4852 Accuracy 54.9% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 1443796 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 72.2 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 26.3 Damage ----------------------------------------- Thats after the 15 damage reduction as well remember. No, In my mind "Improved Natural Attack" is grossly overpowered for one single feat. I could understand more if it was a series of feats.
Yaeri 09-20-07, 10:39 AM	Burlane, if I compare your calculations with those of Raymond luxury yacht, I see that the fighter in your example has not taken improved critical (I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't) and he also doesn't seem to be using power attack. Power attack in the hands of a fighter wielding a two handed weapon can drastically increase damage against enemies with lower AC than the Balor used in the example. And if I had gotten a fighter up to level 20 I would probably have gotten him some inherent strength bonus along the way.
Yaeri 09-20-07, 10:41 AM	A fighter can benefit from enlarge as well. Bull's strength doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus of a +6 strength item. But if you want spells and such into the calculations, give the fighter a weapon with the metaline ability, and holy weapon spell and you can add 15 (the full DR) to his average damage.
Burlane 09-20-07, 10:41 AM	Yaeri, I'll get on that right now. From my first experiments with Power Attack versus the Balor it actually decreased Damage Per Round on the fighter due to decreased accuracy. Give me 10 minutes to get the results through my program and post. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 10:44 AM	Yaeri, Here are the results from Improved Critical Feat on the fighter. ----------------------------------------- TEST #5 Same Fighter in TEST #1 but with, - Improved Critical Feat ----------------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 45996 Number of Misses 34004 Number of Critical Hits is 6808 Number of Natural 1 is 4150 Accuracy 57.5% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 580937 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 29.0 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 12.6 Damage As we can see, Improved Critical really is mindless versus the Balor in the sense it does anything for the fighter.
Burlane 09-20-07, 10:46 AM	Give me a few more minutes for the Power Attack Results.
Burlane 09-20-07, 11:04 AM	Yaeri, Okay here are the results from the Fighter in TEST #1 having Improved Critical (Greatsword) with Power Attack. I did several Power Attacks and as you can see its nothing to complain about. Here is the quick summary, Essentially its as I found before, Slight increase in Damage at the expense of accuracy as the feat is suppose to work. PA1 = 52.4% Accuracy / 31.4 Damage Per Round PA2 = 47.6% Accuracy / 32.7 Damage Per Round PA3 = 42.3% Accuracy / 33.0 Damage Per Round PA4 = 38.9% Accuracy / 33.8 Damage Per Round PA5 = 34.9% Accuracy / 33.6 Damage Per Round PA6 = 31.2% Accuracy / 33.0 Damage Per Round PA7 = 27.6% Accuracy / 31.5 Damage Per Round PA8 = 23.8% Accuracy / 29.3 Damage Per Round We observe, that the damage builds up to a maximum at Power Attack +4 where it is seen to be 33.8 Damage Per Round. Still not as high as the Monk from TEST #3 in my earlier post. So I don't know what kinda math the previous poster was using. Also note the extreme cost in accuracy at that level of Power Attack. Also, For those talking about power attack in general, remember I can also redo these tests with Power Attack on the Monk. So really comparing Power Attack to Non-Power Attack is not a valid comparison. POWER ATTACK 1 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +33/+28/+23/+18/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+21 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 41887 Number of Misses 38113 Number of Critical Hits is 6392 Number of Natural 1 is 3929 Accuracy 52.4% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 627734 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 31.4 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 15.0 Damage POWER ATTACK 2 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +32/+27/+22/+17/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+23 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 38059 Number of Misses 41941 Number of Critical Hits is 5605 Number of Natural 1 is 3982 Accuracy 47.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 654613 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 32.7 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 17.2 Damage POWER ATTACK 3 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +31/+26/+21/+16/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+25 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 33821 Number of Misses 46179 Number of Critical Hits is 5018 Number of Natural 1 is 4032 Accuracy 42.3% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 660503 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 33.0 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 19.5 Damage POWER ATTACK 4 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +30/+25/+20/+15/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+27 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 31111 Number of Misses 48889 Number of Critical Hits is 4495 Number of Natural 1 is 4002 Accuracy 38.9% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 676989 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 33.8 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 21.8 Damage POWER ATTACK 5 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +29/+24/+19/+14/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+29 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 27916 Number of Misses 52084 Number of Critical Hits is 4109 Number of Natural 1 is 3984 Accuracy 34.9% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 672238 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 33.6 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 24.1 Damage POWER ATTACK 6 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +28/+23/+18/+13/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+31 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 24973 Number of Misses 55027 Number of Critical Hits is 3685 Number of Natural 1 is 3980 Accuracy 31.2% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 659328 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 33.0 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 26.4 Damage POWER ATTACK 7 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +27/+22/+17/+12/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+33 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 22041 Number of Misses 57959 Number of Critical Hits is 3148 Number of Natural 1 is 3863 Accuracy 27.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 629296 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 31.5 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 28.6 Damage POWER ATTACK 8 ----------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +26/+21/+16/+11/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+35 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 19076 Number of Misses 60924 Number of Critical Hits is 2598 Number of Natural 1 is 4063 Accuracy 23.8% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 585153 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 29.3 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 30.7 Damage
highbulp 09-20-07, 11:10 AM	I read the original post, but I think I missed something. The fighter has 3 attacks normally right (+11 BAB for an 11th level fighter). A few rounds a day he can use his haste boots to get 4 attacks, right? So the fighter gets 4 attacks at (around) +20/+20/+15/+10, at 2d8+18. You get 4 attacks at a (corrected) +16/16/+16/+11 that do 3d6+7. Where is the problem exactly? Even ignoring the low attack, the fighter at full form (so when he's using his boots) should be doing 6d8+54 a round. You're doing 9d6+21 a round. The fighter is easily outdamaging you. As for the AC thing, just remind your DM that you lose most of that AC when you're flatfooted. So if they get the jump on you in the first round of combat, you may be squished. Similarly, invisible creatures and the like will easily touch you. Unlike the fighter (of course his touch AC is worse).
Burlane 09-20-07, 11:18 AM	Also, I would like to point out what happens when we taken the Damage Reduction away from the target (ie the Balor in these tests) ----------------------------------------- LEVEL 20 FIGHTER - Greatsword +5 - 25 Strength - Weapon Focus - Weapon Specialization - Greater Weapon Focus - Greater Weapon Specialization - Improved Critical ----------------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 46049 Number of Misses 33951 Number of Critical Hits is 6841 Number of Natural 1 is 4123 Accuracy 57.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 1375080 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 68.8 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 29.9 Damage ----------------------------------------- LEVEL 20 MONK (without Improved Natural Attack) - 20 Strength - 26 Dexterity - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 ----------------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 2d10+10 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 55034 Number of Misses 44966 Number of Critical Hits is 2809 Number of Natural 1 is 4926 Accuracy 55.0% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 1214971 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 60.7 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 22.1 Damage ----------------------------------------- LEVEL 20 MONK (with Improved Natural Attack) - 20 Strength - 26 Dexterity - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 - Improved Natural Attack ----------------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 4d8+10 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 54986 Number of Misses 45014 Number of Critical Hits is 2802 Number of Natural 1 is 5071 Accuracy 55.0% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 1617020 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 80.9 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 29.4 Damage So here we have the Fighter and Monk on fairly equal grounds when it comes to damage without the monk taking Improved Natural Attack. The Fighter doing 68.8 damage per round while the monk is doing 60.7 damage per round. This in my mind is extremely balanced considering the wide array of abilities the Monk has access to. Now view the damage from improved natural attack 80.9 damage per round. Thats a 33.3% increase from 1 Feat. That is overpowered and shouldn't be legal in my opinion, yet it is. It is Feats like this that make classes out-shine the once proud Fighter. Its not balanced. Anyways, These proved to be interesting tests no doubt. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 11:24 AM	"As for the AC thing, just remind your DM that you lose most of that AC when you're flatfooted. So if they get the jump on you in the first round of combat, you may be squished. Similarly, invisible creatures and the like will easily touch you. Unlike the fighter (of course his touch AC is worse)." - highbulp "These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load." -PHB The only thing the Monk loses if Flat-Footed is Dexterity AC bonus. Not Wisdom or Monk Additional AC. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 11:32 AM	The point I'm trying to get across to my players is have fun, in a balance game, whereby when you do tremendous amounts of damage you feel great about it. I love seeing my players succeed. I think the majority of DM's do. There are many many other feats Belledia can take to increase his damage on the monk without having to take "Improved Natural Attack". There is "Axiomatic Attack" feat from the Complete Divine pared with the Feat which gives additional 4 Stunning Fists per day, that right there alone is 8 times a day 2d6 more damage. There is the "Enlarge Person" spell which Belledia has now from his Strength Domain as a Level 12 Monk / Level 1 Cleric in the Force / Strength Domains. Next level, when he branches into Scared Fist Levels he will have access to Scared Flames among other Cleric Spells to buff Strength and Damage. There is also the two passive abilities Feat of Strength and Force of Will from the Strength and Force Domains whereby Belledia can add his Cleric + Scared Fist level to damage and also Reroll any Damage roll he is not happy with. I like to see damage go that high, I really do. But I like the characters to use their abilities and think about it to do it. Not just take 1 Feat from the 3.5 Monsterous Manual and have it all. Burl~
valnar 09-20-07, 12:05 PM	if you think that’s bad. If the fighter is human have him take a level in barbarian and give up fast movement for the lion totem (basically pounce) in complete champion. That's all 4 attacks while charging and if he used a falchion (way better crit range) and leap attack he would be way better than the monk.
Burlane 09-20-07, 12:14 PM	Switching to the Falchion results in the following on the normal attack testing, ---------------------------------------------------- Level 20 Fighter - Falchion +5 - 25 Strength - Weapon Focus (Falchion) - Weapon Specialization (Falchion) - Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion) - Greater Weapon Specialization (Falchion) - Improved Critical (Falchion) ---------------------------------------------------- Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d4+19 Per Hit (15-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 46015 Number of Misses 33985 Number of Critical Hits is 11408 Number of Natural 1 is 4022 Accuracy 57.5% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 1377753 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 68.9 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 29.9 Damage Hmmm. Thats 68.9 vs. 68.8 Damage. Now I will admit this Leap Attack and Lion Totem may help the fighter. Can you list what they do for me ? We do not have the Complete Champion Book available.
valnar 09-20-07, 12:16 PM	also why is the fighters Strength so low even if he bought a 16at first level at 20th it would be most likely more around 31 (16+4 inherent+5 book of str+6 item) thats plus 20 damage just from using it two-handed. fighters don't need as many stats as the monk, the monk would have to buy the +6 item to wis/dex/str the fighter doesn't
Burlane 09-20-07, 12:19 PM	The Fighters Strength was set to 25 in the first mathematics calculations posted. I wanted to stick with the same statistics as the first person with the Fighter having 25 Strength and the Monk having 26 Dex / 20 Str. But your right, Both classes will most likely have higher scores in both those abilities by 20th Level.
valnar 09-20-07, 12:19 PM	lion totem = pounce ability on charge leap attack = I think x3 power attack damage on charge (don't have book in front of me).
Burlane 09-20-07, 12:21 PM	Raymond_Luxury_Yacht made the first posting valnar if you wanted to look back on what he was talking about. Cool man, thanks for the info, what is pounce ability ? I do not recall that in the PHB.
valnar 09-20-07, 12:24 PM	pounce= full attack on the charge
valnar 09-20-07, 12:25 PM	pounce is really bad with two-weapon fighting and haste
Burlane 09-20-07, 12:29 PM	Ok, so my impression is yes, upon opening the fight the Fighter with Lion Totem and Leap Attack could potentially dish out alot of damage. If you give me a few minutes I can get you some damage calculation results. But we have to bare in mind the limits of charge. For it is mostly a opening attack. As stated in the PHB, "You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent." -PHB Thus the Fighter couldn't continuously charge in certain situations, unless he put himself at significant risk in doing so (ie. Running away from the enemy and back in, provoking attacks of opportunity and such). Give me a few minutes to do this up....
Burlane 09-20-07, 12:30 PM	Yes and of course Haste on just about any melee tank is great =) Lets ignore Haste effects for the present as it applies to everyone.
Burlane 09-20-07, 12:34 PM	Valnar, I have to jet for about a hour, but I'm interested in seeing what this spits out for damage. I'll get back to ya here once I return. Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 12:36 PM	An Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 costs 150,000 gp. A +5 greatsword costs 50,000 gp. The fighter could easily afford to add a lot more damage per hit to his weapon, if he's spending the same amount of money that the monk is on his "weapon". Add Holy on there at a minimum, and some other abilities. The monk doesn't even have the option to add things like Holy to his weapon in a Core only game, which is a huge hit to his power. Also, as already stated, monks in general require more high ability scores, and will have to spend more money to keep those scores high, than the fighter does. Even in your example, you're giving the monk a higher stat than the fighter has, and the monk has two stats listed (which he has to improve via magic, etc), while the fighter only has one. Your simple numerical analysis is leaving out alot of things, and is also biased somewhat, due to your neglect of item costs.
valnar 09-20-07, 12:42 PM	the fighter could also take melee mastery(Falchion)- +2 hit +2 damage
rironin 09-20-07, 12:48 PM	the fighter could also take melee mastery(Falchion)- +2 hit +2 damageAlthough it's probably a bad idea to go beyond core only, I'd be interested to see what happens if you give the fighter access to the expanded weapon specialization tree in the PHB2. That seemed like a big effort to make fighters playable again. I wonder how much it would affect damage?
Relics 09-20-07, 01:11 PM	Even with core only theres plenty of weapon/weapon ability choices and additional/more accessable combat oriented feats available to the fighter that make them as effective as (if not more than) a monk while maintaining a completly different feel.
Yaeri 09-20-07, 01:12 PM	Burlane, I was going to delve into damage calculations myself, but in the end they probably won't matter. I don't know a lot of the monk, but I still believe the fighter does more damage than the stuff in your calculations. I generally get a level 20 fighter up to 30 STR (16 base, 5 levels, 6 item, 3 inherent) and a +1 holy vicious greatsword. Now for the price of an amulet of mighty fists, I'd change that into a +2 holy vicious greatsword of speed and up the damage quite some more. I still believe the fighter will do more damage than a monk. That aside, I've checked on the improved natural weapon feat and the monk's unarmed damage. Now, if it is ruled that improved natural weapon in the hands of a monk increase his base damage (at 20th level) from 2D10 to 4D8 (average increase of 7) then I whole heartedly agree that that is too much for a single feat. Improved weapon specialization which is two feats, gives only +4 damage and is fighter only. By the way, thanks for taking all that time to calculate that stuff for me. ;)
Burlane 09-20-07, 02:01 PM	Not a problem Yaeri, I'm gonna get the Damage Calculations on the Leap Attack and Lion Totem shortly, I'm back at the office now. First I have to run out and purchase a notebook. Someone mentioned Melee Mastery Feat for +2 Hit / Damage. Where is the source of that feat ? Thanks for the replies guys ! Burl~ PS: Be back in about 2 hours. Also, If anyone wants the Damage Calculator let me know in a private message. I've already mailed it to 7 people. LOL Getting good responses from them hahah.
Burlane 09-20-07, 02:07 PM	Rironin, As for fighters being playable, I actually fully believe they are not as broken as players tend to describe. I do however fully believe that it is unbalancing feats such as "Improved Natural Attack" that makes other classes out-shine the Fighter at times, and its important that Wizards research the problems thoroughly before shifting classes two much. When changing any class, the class as a whole must be looked at, not just the Damage. Look at the Fighter as a whole for a second ? Great Fortitude Save, crappy other saves, all the class has going for it is damage. Look at the Monk, tons of nice toys and good damage. Why would you unbalance the class to the point of out-damaging the fighter... Now I know I havent done the new tests yet, I'm just going by the numbers presented thus far in the thread. But when i get back from buying this notebook i'll get the rest of the numbers up for people to look at. And also, If anyone wants a test done vs. a specific monster or AC or DR let me know, I'll post it. Burl~
wonlee76 09-20-07, 02:11 PM	That aside, I've checked on the improved natural weapon feat and the monk's unarmed damage. Now, if it is ruled that improved natural weapon in the hands of a monk increase his base damage (at 20th level) from 2D10 to 4D8 (average increase of 7) then I whole heartedly agree that that is too much for a single feat. Improved weapon specialization which is two feats, gives only +4 damage and is fighter only. By the way, thanks for taking all that time to calculate that stuff for me. ;) Am I glad someone just looked at the "basic" balance issue on INA for monks. Its a feat that gives a monk's unarmed strikes a constant boost to damage in the area of +2.5 average damage (level 6 monk is the earliest you can get this feat) which increases to +7 at later levels that gets the benefit of ititerative attacks and flurry of blows (of which, no other natural attack in the game would get such benefit thus making this feat a lot more powerful in the hands of a monk vs. a monster with natural attacks). Compare this to Fist of Iron in CW: +1d6 to unarmed strike damage after burning a stunning fist attempt. +3.5 average damage limited by the # of stunning fists your monk has... not so hot compared to INA. Ultimately, I agree with the other posts that says a level 20 fighter will outdamage a monk with INA since there are so many factors to consider such as costs of magical gear and magical enhancements on weapons and a fighter having an easier time with "exotic" DRs but INA on a monk does narrow the gap by a substantial margin and that's what some DMs might consider to be overpowered. A single feat with no appreciable pre-reqs that gives a substantial boost to damage that is comparable to a feat chain (weapon spec + melee weapon mastery + greater weapon spec).
wonlee76 09-20-07, 02:14 PM	Someone mentioned Melee Mastery Feat for +2 Hit / Damage. Where is the source of that feat ? Its called Melee Weapon Mastery (and Ranged Weapon Mastery) and its in the PHB II.
Burlane 09-20-07, 02:24 PM	Thanks for the information again Wonlee76 =) To be honest, Though few of you speculate that the Fighter will out damage the Monk with INA, I think its going to be quite a surprise once all the numbers are crunched...I have yet to run them through the program but when I get a few extra minutes I will. But remember, If I am to compare the Fighter with Lion Pounce, Power Attack and Leap Attack, I must also run the same test on the Monk with INA with similar feats. If we are to compare to classes lets not compare Apples and Oranges, lets compare the same thing. The question is, Does INA screw up the delicate balance of damage that should exist in my campaign between the Fighter and Monk, So far, with the tests done, Yes it does. But we will see shortly what happens... Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 02:25 PM	Wonlee76, Did you say Fist of Iron is in Complete Warrior ? Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 02:30 PM	The pounce thing people are talking about is from a Barbarian substitution level. So it isn't available to either monks, or single-classed fighters. It is alot more easy to justify a 1-level dip into barbarian for a fighter than for monk, though.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 02:43 PM	But remember, If I am to compare the Fighter with Lion Pounce, Power Attack and Leap Attack, I must also run the same test on the Monk with INA with similar feats. If we are to compare to classes lets not compare Apples and Oranges, lets compare the same thing. The question is, Does INA screw up the delicate balance of damage that should exist in my campaign between the Fighter and Monk, So far, with the tests done, Yes it does. But we will see shortly what happens... Burl~ Noting the bolded part, the monk is still spending 150K gold vs the fighters 50K gold. You should be giving the fighter at least a +8 (with bonuses) weapon for the comparison to be even REMOTELY accurate. I'd recommend a +5 Thundering Holy Falcion. Note that still leaves the Monk spending 22K gold more for a +5 bonus to his Fists. Its flat out not fair to say that the Monk is spending 3 times the amount of gold the fighter is.
wonlee76 09-20-07, 03:07 PM	Wonlee76, Did you say Fist of Iron is in Complete Warrior ? Burl~ I may have the name wrong but its a feat in CW. Iron Fist... Fist of Iron or something like that. I just remember the crunch of it; use up a stunning fist attempt to get a +1d6 damage with your unarmed strike. I can't even remember if its only for 1 attack or for a full round or not.
Puggins 09-20-07, 03:07 PM	Raymond_Luxury_Yacht, I think your mathematics are slightly amiss..... If you took a level 20 Fighter with the following, - 25 Strength - Greatsword +5 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) - Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) Then the fighters full attack would be, ** Greatsword +34/+29/+24/+19 at (2d6+19/19-20x2) Now let us take a Level 20 Monk with the following, - 20 Strength - 26 Dexterity - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 - Improved Natural Weapon Then the monks full attack would be, ** Flurry of Blows +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 at (4d8+10/20x2) also note without Improved Natural Attack the monk would be, ** Flurry of Blows +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 at (2d10+10/20x2) If I may interrupt... whether or not you are doing this intentionally I can't say, but you're really not comparing apples to apples. The fighter in your example has spent 50k gp or so on his weapon, 4 of his available 18 feats and has a 25 in his most significant combat score. The monk, on the other hand, has spent 150k gp on his "weapon" (amulet of might fists), has spent 3 of his available 8 feats and not only has a 26 in one score, but is assumed to have a 20 in another. In other words, you're using far, far fewer of a fighter's available resources than you are the monk's. I would suggest changing it thusly: * The fighter should have a 26 in strength. A fighter with a beginning 16 str can spend 4 of his skill up and have a +6 str item and attain this without any problem whatsoever. * The fighter can spend 110k on a manual of gainful exercise +4. This will roughly bring him up to the same amount of money you have spent on your monk. Before you say that the monk can do the same thing, I'd remind you that you would then free up more money for the fighter to upgrade his weapon significantly. * The fighter should have Power Attack. The monk could also have power attack, but I suspect you won't see anywhere near the amount of benefit once you figure in the fighter's new strength. The fighter now has a strength of 30 and has spent resources almost exactly equal to the monk. To keep things simple, I'd say let's use the exact same attack bonuses you used for the fighter by using power attack to make up the difference. Instead of +34/+29/+24/+19 for 2d6 + 19 (19-20/x2) You now have +34/+29/+24/+19 for 2d6 + 30 (19-20/x2) Or you can just run... +37/+32/+27/+22 for 2d6 + 24 (19-20/x2) Though I suspect that last one won't be as good, since the first attack is wasting a few points of attack. Using back-of-the-envelope calculations, I see the fighter now doing something along the lines of 53.9 damage per round BEFORE crits are taken into account. This is due to a massive increase in damage per hit to 22 or so before crits. This, of course, makes the monk's damage per round look pitiful. Improved Unarmed Attack at least puts the monk back in the same ballpark (though it'd have to be a pretty friggin' big ballpark).
Burlane 09-20-07, 03:09 PM	PhaedrusXY, Haha, I just finished up 10 more tests then realized the Fighter cannot get that Feat. So we are essentially back to square one. That is with the Fighter and Monk being essentially equivalent unless the Monk takes Improved Natural Attack in which case he out damages the fighter by a wide variance. Burl~
PantherFern 09-20-07, 03:11 PM	Raymond_Luxury_Yacht, I think your mathematics are slightly amiss..... If you took a level 20 Fighter with the following, - 25 Strength - Greatsword +5 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) - Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) Then the fighters full attack would be, ** Greatsword +34/+29/+24/+19 at (2d6+19/19-20x2) Now let us take a Level 20 Monk with the following, - 20 Strength - 26 Dexterity - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 - Improved Natural Weapon Then the monks full attack would be, ** Flurry of Blows +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 at (4d8+10/20x2) also note without Improved Natural Attack the monk would be, ** Flurry of Blows +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 at (2d10+10/20x2) Let us put both the Fighter and the Monk up against the Balor mentioned in your mathematical calculations. The statistics on the Balor are as follows, HP: 290 AC: 35 DR: 15/cold iron and good So, let us now compare what would happen in 3 different scenarios. The first with the Level 20 Fighter fighting the Balor, the second with the Level 20 Monk without Improved Natural Attack fighting the Balor and the third with the Level 20 Monk with Improved Natural Attack fighting the Balor. For this test we will look at the results from 20,000 rounds of combat done through a C++ program I have created. (Which I will state is rather nice for determining damage per round for any class so if anyone wants the program just private message me). Anyways, Lets put these 3 scenarios to the test. 20,000 rounds of combat, lets see what happens. ------------------------------------------ TEST #1 Fighter Level 20 ------------------------------------------ Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 46054 Number of Misses 33946 Number of Critical Hits is 2302 Number of Natural 1 is 4050 Accuracy 57.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 531581 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 26.6 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 11.5 Damage ------------------------------------------ TEST #2 Monk Level 20 (without Improved Natural Attack) ------------------------------------------ Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 2d10+10 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 54827 Number of Misses 45173 Number of Critical Hits is 2761 Number of Natural 1 is 5032 Accuracy 54.8% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 355902 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 17.8 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 6.5 Damage ------------------------------------------ TEST #3 Monk Level 20 (with Improved Natural Attack) ------------------------------------------ Testing Attack Of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 Testing Damage Of 4d8+10 Per Hit (20-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 55087 Number of Misses 44913 Number of Critical Hits is 2759 Number of Natural 1 is 4915 Accuracy 55.1% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 751906 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 37.6 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 13.6 Damage Ahhh, Now unless the numbers lie, which in my experience as an engineer they usually don't. It looks as though the Monk with Improved Natural Attack actually does out damage Fighter by a whopping 11.0 Damage per round. Even with the dreaded damage reduction everyone was crying about. Now where am I going with this ? Ah, well here it is. I am the DM for the game Belledia is involved in. I understand Monk's perfectly for those who stated that A.) I either hate Monk's or B.) I don't understand Monk's. I've been DM'ing for over 14 years, I have alot of experience with pleasing players and watching them succeed and strengthening their characters over years of adventuring. I also have alot of experience with balance. Oh my god. Yes I said it. Balance. The Fighter, The most laughed at class as some may put it is not overly broken. The Fighter as shown above, can actually out damage a normal monk versus the Balor. Now, should the Monk, who has Spell Resistance, Personal Dimensional Door, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Disease, Improved Evasion, Ki Strike, Still Mind, Fast Movement, Wholeness of the Body, Quivering Palm, Perfect Self, etc. be able to out damage the one class in my opinion who exists for one purpose, damage ? My answer is no. I know 1/2 of you players think "Improved Natural Attack" is the best thing since sliced bread. I know alot of you may play monks and DM yourself. But, I think that no one single feat alone, should beable to passively increase someone's overall damage by 31.2%. (Note its actually 211% damage increase versus the Balor) This damage increase for one single feat is ridiculous in my opinion. As stated earlier, "But Cleric's and Caster's are hitting that hard by that level". Yes thats true, but they had to suffer and build up to it, with lower hit points and not the same abilities throughout their careers, thus making them balanced. In my mind, the monk is perfectly balanced without the use of "Improved Natural Attack". In my mind the Feat is a exploit. I will state that no Monk in my campaign will ever be allowed that feat. Call me mean, Call me unfair, Call it cheating. The number's speak for themselves. Besides, their are ways to get the monk hitting that hard. Cast "Enlarge Person" on the monk for starters then he/she is hitting as if he/she had the feat. There are plenty of ways to increase damage and still have fun and still maintain Balance. Anyways, Its my opinion. I'm sure there are few others that share it, but I'm concrete on my decision. Let the flames begin!!!!! Burl~ I don't really want to get into the overall argument, but I would like to point out a curiosity I noted in the above stats: Did you notice that the 1's/crit misses were about double the number of 19-20/crit hits in all three blocks? I find that . . . backwards frankly, especially considering the 2-point range for crits. There is no statistical way that 20,000 runs using 3 different stat blocks should return this kind of result unless something is mis-programmed or you wrote it down wrong. That could very well account for a huge difference in the total numbers. Just thought I'd point it out.
wonlee76 09-20-07, 03:24 PM	You know, instead of comparing a 20 level fighter vs. 20 level monk with INA, compare INA to other feats that are capable of increasing damage. The feats that come to mind are INA for monks, Power Attack, Monkey Grip, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery, and Fist of Iron (or whatever its called). The only feat out of the above that "could" give INA on a monk a run for its money is Power Attack on a full BAB Two Handed Weapon fighter type. I'm pretty certain INA would beat a one handed weapon power attacker. I doubt there is a neutral way to determine the "value" of power attack over INA but if there is, that may act as a benchmark as to whether INA is just simply "too good" for a monk.
holylink718 09-20-07, 03:27 PM	The DMs point is that my monk should not have the same AC as the fighter Well, to start, he's wrong, although I wouldn't recomend saying this to him/her unless they're a really good friend. The monk's prime strength is to avoid being hit, hence a high AC. Why else would you benefit from your wis mod as a special dodge bonus? A monk is supposed to be difficult to hit. nor should I be able to out damage him. I do tend to agree with your DM on this point, although it sounds as though you just have a different approach to making said monk than he/she and I would. Think about it this way. In a straight one-on-one fight between you and the fighter, using any tricks either of you can use without any outside influence, who would win? If that would be the fighter hands down, you're ok. If it's pretty even, once again, you're ok. But if the fighter would be hard pressed to beat you with only one level in your favor, you may have a problem. However, that depends on the situation. If the fighter specializes in archery, for example, he's screwed, and that's not your fault. An archer would only get a few shots before the monk closed in on him/her, and it would only be a matter of grappling or disarming the archer to cripple him/her significantly, which wouldn't be that difficult for a monk to accomplish. Even if you don't have Improved Grapple/Disarm, unless the archer had a melee weapon at the ready (which he/she obvioulsy won't), they wouldn't get an AOO. My feeling on this is the monk is a light tank, with less HP, less feats, less overall options when compared to a fighter. I sacrifice survivability for the ability to do some great damage. As for this, it only depends on the style of gameplay. I've played a half-orc monk that sacrificed super AC for super damage, and I've seen a human monk played that couldn't do squat for damage, but he could sure as heck tumble past the fighters and grapple the enemy wizard. Both are effective, it just depends on what you prefer. My last piece of advice to you is not to push the issue with your DM. If he/she doesn't like a particular feat, don't take it. Don't however, let him/her bully you into playing a sterotypical no damage-dealing monk if that's not the character you want to play. Just do it using all the rules and feats he/she allows. I hope my advice helps. :D
Burlane 09-20-07, 03:48 PM	Puggins, If I am allowing the Fighter to increase his Strength to 30 I would also allow the Monk in my party to increase his Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom an equivalent amount, rest assured. Thus yes the Fighter would gain increased Hit / Damage bonuses as would the Monk in this case, and I have worked it out for the Fighter with 30 Strength and the Monk with 26 Strength, 30 Dexterity and the results below follow. For these 3 tests the the Target AC was 35. The Damage Reduction was set to 0. Again, 20,000 combat rounds were used. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Level 20 Fighter - 30 Strength +10 Hit and +15 Damage - Greatsword +5 Hit and Damage - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +1 Hit - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +1 Hit - Weapon Specializatin (Greatsword) +2 Damage - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) +2 Damage - Melee Mastery (Greatsword) +2 Hit and +2 Damage - Improved Critical (Greatsword) Greatsword +39/+34/+29/+24 Melee (2d6+26/17-20x2) Testing Attack Of +39/+34/+29/+24/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+26 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Accuracy 76.3% Average Damage Per Round = 115.9 Damage ------------------------------------------------------------------ Level 20 Monk (without Improved Natural Attack) - 26 Strength +8 Damage - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) +1 Hit - Weapon Finesse - 30 Dexterity +10 Hit - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 Hit and +5 Damage Flurry Of Blows +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Melee (2d10+14/20x2) Testing Attack Of +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Testing Damage Of 2d10+14 Per Hit (20)x2 Accuracy 65.1% Average Damage Per Round = 85.3 Damage ------------------------------------------------------------------ Level 20 Monk (With Improved Natural Attack) - 26 Strength +8 Damage - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) +1 Hit - Weapon Finesse - 30 Dexterity +10 Hit - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 Hit and +5 Damage - Improved Natural Attack Flurry Of Blows +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Melee (4d8+14/20x2) Testing Attack Of +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Testing Damage Of 4d8+14 Per Hit (20)x2 Accuracy 64.9% Average Damage Per Round = 109.0 Damage So, here is where the problem lies. The Fighter's DPR (Damage Per Round) is 115.9, The Monk's DPR without INA is 85.3, and the Monk's DPR with INA is 109.0. So, The question is this. Should the Monk beable to take 1 Feat from the 3.5 Monstrous Manual, to do equivalent damage to the Fighter who has taken 6 Feats ?? Personally, as stated before, this feat is overpowered and should have never been allowed with all the other abilities the monk has that the Fighter does not. Thats just my opinion though. The Monk is still pumping out some good damage without the Feat and there are PLENTY of ways to increase monk damage without taking Improved Natural Attack. The Monk still doesn't completely out-damage the Fighter in these tests, but comes pretty close. If the Monk took Improved Critical and had a little more Strength the Monk would without a doubt out-damage the Fighter. I don't know, It just doesn't seem fair to me that 1 Feat gives the Monk what it takes the Fighter 6 Feats to achieve. What with all the other abilities I stressed earlier that the Monk has available, its just insane to say this Feat doesn't unbalance these two classes. The way I see it, If you want good damage, with alot of great abilities and good saving throws all around, go Monk. If you want just to focus on raw damage in melee, go Fighter. If you use Improved Natural Attack, your shafting Fighters balance and giving their soul existence to a class with better abilities. Thus you are saying you want to eliminate one of the oldest and funnest core classes since the beginning of DND. Thats just my two cents Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 03:52 PM	"Did you notice that the 1's/crit misses were about double the number of 19-20/crit hits in all three blocks? I find that . . . backwards frankly, especially considering the 2-point range for crits. There is no statistical way that 20,000 runs using 3 different stat blocks should return this kind of result unless something is mis-programmed or you wrote it down wrong." - PantherFern PantherFern, Remember that a 19-20 is not a confirmed Critical Hit. You need to make a secondary attack roll that actually hits to confirm the critical hit is in fact a critical damage. Thus yes there would be alot more 1's then Crit's. The code is 100% correct in predicting this and it shows. Burl~
Fraglan 09-20-07, 03:53 PM	You're comparsions are off, again, because of the differences in equipment value. Its hard to put any stock in what you are comparing with the resource disparity. A +5 weapon is roughly 1/3rd the value of the +5 Mighty Fists Amulet. The fighter needs another 100K in gold for that alone. That doesn't even touch the differences in values for the stat boosting items. Till things like that are accounted for your tests are highly biased in favor of the Monk.
Burlane 09-20-07, 03:56 PM	But thanks for pointing that out PantherFern, I was wondering that myself until I realized that statistically there should be a equal number of 1's and 20's, thus more 19-20's then 1's. But because a 19-20 isnt a Critical Hit until the Second Attack Roll is confirmed as a Hit, then this drastically decreases the ratio of Critical Hits to 1's. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 03:57 PM	Fraglan, This comparison is not about value of equipment. Say they have that equipment. If your concerned that the equipment used on both classes is not appropriate, then suggest the "Best" equipment both could have gathered throughout their entire careers and we can surely redo the damage calculations and see what happens. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:03 PM	My last piece of advice to you is not to push the issue with your DM. If he/she doesn't like a particular feat, don't take it. Don't however, let him/her bully you into playing a sterotypical no damage-dealing monk if that's not the character you want to play. Just do it using all the rules and feats he/she allows. I hope my advice helps. - Holylink718 Holylink718, This is what I've been stressing to Belledia. He can take a large array of other Feats that increase his damage. If he is concerned about damage, he has plenty of available options. But the "Improved Natural Attack" in my campaign isn't one of them. Like I said before, I love to see the character dish out some great damage. I want to see them Think and Work for the damage. Not just pick 1 Feat and beable to do it. That to me is cheap and dirty and makes me wanna purge. Burl~
Fraglan 09-20-07, 04:06 PM	Fraglan, This comparison is not about value of equipment. Say they have that equipment. If your concerned that the equipment used on both classes is not appropriate, then suggest the "Best" equipment both could have gathered throughout their entire careers and we can surely redo the damage calculations and see what happens. Burl~ The fighter's damage is directly based on what kind and how powerful of a weapon that fighter is using. Equipment is part of the character, and it has a huge impact on the amount of damage that fighter will do. Without doing too much work, I'd probably go with a +4 Speed Holy (Twohander of Choice). In your fight with the Balor this would be +1 attack at the highest bonus and another 2d6 damage per hit. Personally, I'd rather the Fighter have a +1 Flaming Frost Shock Speed Holy weapon, and use Oils of Greater Magic Weapon +5. That's what my two-hand fighting high level melee'r uses. Appropriate doesn't really matter so much as equal. You've given the monk a massive advantage. Edit: I don't really care if you ban INA for monks, just for the record. I just think your comparison is WAY WAY off-base, and if you are using that for the reason, you should be better informed is all.
PantherFern 09-20-07, 04:10 PM	But thanks for pointing that out PantherFern, I was wondering that myself until I realized that statistically there should be a equal number of 1's and 20's, thus more 19-20's then 1's. But because a 19-20 isnt a Critical Hit until the Second Attack Roll is confirmed as a Hit, then this drastically decreases the ratio of Critical Hits to 1's. Burl~ So you don't confirm crit misses but you do confirm crit hits? That seems screwy to me. If we just use 1 and 20 that means there's a 5% chance to crit miss but only 5% of 5% (.25%) chance to crit hit? Even if the crit range is expanded to the typical 19-20, that's only a 10% of 10% (1%) chance to crit. Seems a bit skewed towards our "heroes" having a much better chance of missing or fumbling (depending on how you run it) than they do of scoring a "great shot." As your stats showed, it appears to be at least a double chance for missing as critting. Seems . . . wrong. I dunno. At any rate, the numbers make more sense now and my point is withdrawn.
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 04:18 PM	This comparison is not about value of equipment. Whether you like it or not, it is. Fraglan explains why above this. You can't consider a 20th level character without considering their gear, especially a non-caster, and if you're comparing two, you have to make sure their gear is more or less equal. This is one of the main advantages that the fighter has over a monk. It is much more difficult for the monk to enhance his unarmed strike to the same level that the fighter can enhance his weapon, unless you use Savage Species, etc.
rironin 09-20-07, 04:21 PM	Do we really need pounce? Your tests involve running a ton of "average" attacks. We could say that we want to compare that first round of combat, fighter vs. monk, but that seems a little specialized to me. Still, I'm sure the numbers will be impressive :) For the fighter, does he already have Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization? Could we also give him Weapon Supremacy? That would be reeeaaallly weird to model, but it would be nice - it would mean one of his attacks after the first was made at +5, and one of his attack rolls could be a "take 10". Optimizing which rolls to choose for the Balor might be interesting :) (very nice program you must have btw, Burlane, to get all these cool results so fast).
Fraglan 09-20-07, 04:23 PM	I'm a little concerned about the critical hits as well. Burlane, is there anyway we could get a sub-breakdown of possible crits vs the number of confirmed and missed crits?
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:32 PM	PantherFern and Fraglan, I record the amount of 1's rolled and the amount of Critical Hits Scored, NOT the amount of 20's, or 19's or etc. Thus, the number of 1's rolled will statistically be 5% of the total hit rolls. But ! The number of Critical Hits Scored are actual hits that rolled the 19-20, or 17-20, or just 20, then scored a successful hit on the secondary attack roll. Thus, yes you will see more 1's then actual Critical Hits. If you like, I can print out how many 1's, 17's, 19's, 20's etc etc that are rolled and you will see statistically there is a 5% chance of getting each number on a d20. =P The program is 100% correct. Maybe is the way you are interrupting the results that is causing your minds to think differently. Or maybe its the way I have it listed. Like I said, Its not trouble for me to list how many 20's, 19's, 18's etc are rolled, and I assure you guys it will be around 5% just like the 1's rolled, but dont expect the number of Critical Hits to be 5%, or 10%, because the secondary attack roll to confirm the crit will lower the %. Burl~
Puggins 09-20-07, 04:38 PM	Puggins, If I am allowing the Fighter to increase his Strength to 30 I would also allow the Monk in my party to increase his Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom an equivalent amount, rest assured. Thus yes the Fighter would gain increased Hit / Damage bonuses as would the Monk in this case, and I have worked it out for the Fighter with 30 Strength and the Monk with 26 Strength, 30 Dexterity and the results below follow. You're missing my main point. The monk in your example is spending a huge amount of gold compared to the fighter. The amulet of might fists costs 150k. The Greatsword +5 costs 50k. Raising one ability to 26 costs a lot less than raising one ability to 26 and another to 20. Raising the monk's scores to be equivalent to the fighter's is not valid, because the monk is spending MUCH more money to do so. Let's make it a bit easier, just to simplify things. Give the fighter a strength of 26. I don't think it's fair to assume a monk can raise str to 20 AND dex to 26 (especially when he has to worry about wisdom while the fighter doesn't) while a fighter can raise his strength only to 26, but whatever- I'll give the monk that much of a handicap. Now, give the fighter an equivalent weapon to the Monk's Amulet of Might Fists. Make the Fighter's weapon a Greatsword of Speed +5. Note that this weapon actually costs less than the amulet of mighty fists by 22k, but again, what the hell, I'll give the monk an advantage. Now the fighter has an extra attack at his highest attack bonus. Figure that out, and keep in mind: (1) I'm giving the monk quite a bit more money using even this method, (2) The fighter has 18 feats to use, the monk only has 10 (which is including the monk's three bonus feats). All those neato abilities you cite may may be worth more than these extra eight feats, but the eight feats are still there. If you claim that the monk shoudl be doing less damage than the fighter because the monk has all those abilities, then you're making the fighter far, far better due to the presence of these feats.
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:39 PM	For you guys questioning the statistics, Here you go Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 15 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 46054 Number of Misses 33946 Number of Critical Hits is 2302 Number of Natural 1 is 4050 Number of Natural 17 is 4006 Number of Natural 18 is 3992 Number of Natural 19 is 4038 Number of Natural 20 is 3998 Accuracy 57.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 531581 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 26.6 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 11.5 Damage Here we see the Number of 1's, 17's, 18's, 19's, 20's are all correct, Remember there are 4 hits per round, for 20,000 rounds. Thats 80,000 hits. 5% of 80,000 is 4000. Look at the numbers, they are statistically correct. Also note, the number of critical hits is still lower, again this is due to the fact the the secondary hit roll required to make the critical can fail, thus leading to a regular attack. Hope this clears things up for you guys =) Burl~
Fraglan 09-20-07, 04:42 PM	Alrighty, it's easier to see with a number break down. I hope you understand the point about equipment now. There is a very good reason the DMG recommends certain amounts of gold for each level.
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:42 PM	OMG also, Note the number of critical hits will be 5% of your total swings times your accuracy ! 4000*57.6% = 2304 Critical Hits Look above at the number of critical hits, 2302, this enforces the fact that the code is working perfectly as intended. Again, I really hope this clears up the confusion for you guys. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:45 PM	Fraglan,Puggins,etc, Yes I understand the issues with the value of the equipment on both the Monk and the Fighter. Remember, Belledia's Monk already has a Amulet of Mighty Fists +4. But yes, I understand. So, That being said. Lets setup a standardized test. List for me the best Equipment for the Fighter, and the best Equipment for the Monk, for around Level 20. I've been told over and over again, nothing is gonna be past +5 bonus, because most things over that are reserved for Epic Characters 20+. So what would you guys like to see in the listing ? Or even better, Lets give them both a budget ? That sounds fair. Give both a budget and lets buy optimal equipment and see what happens ? You guys up for that ? Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:47 PM	But remember, The Fighter is not gonna spend all his money on just a sword for damage, He needs armor, where as the monk naturally has Spell Resistance and High AC from Dex and Wis. Please when picking this lets think about everything as a whole here. Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 04:50 PM	But remember, The Fighter is not gonna spend all his money on just a sword for damage, He needs armor, where as the monk naturally has Spell Resistance and High AC from Dex and Wis. Please when picking this lets think about everything as a whole here. Burl~The monk has to spend MORE than the fighter does to get an equivalent AC. Compare the cost of Bracers of Armor with real armor. The fighter can also use an animated shield. Also, weapons with over +5 total equivalent bonuses are not Epic. Weapons with over a +5 enhancement bonus are Epic. So, a +6 sword is Epic, while a +5 flaming sword is not even close. I suggest that the Fighter should have a +5 Merciful Holy Greatsword, and Boots of Speed. He should also have Str 34 at that point. To make things easy, drop Weapon Finesse and just give the monk Str 34 also. I've played Str focused monks before, and know other people who have as well. Go ahead and give the monk the +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists. This still has the monk spending 10,000 more than the fighter, but its pretty close to equal, and it is simple.
Burlane 09-20-07, 04:52 PM	PhaedrusXY, yeah I knew that, I mean not over +5 Enhancement Bonus, sorry, I understand they can have +10 Total Bonus.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 04:55 PM	Why don't you list what equipment the monk in your group has, and the total value of that, and we can work from there? It is possible your fighter just made poor equipment choices and that has led to his damage dropping off. With some help, it could improve. I'm writing a campaign right now, so I don't have a load of time, and the main problem is a lot of the equipment we could buy for each character would impact combat, but could not readily be shown with a damage calculator. For the most part, assuming 150K for damage enhancing equipment should be best. Plus things like tripping, sundering etc. Edit: Waitwait. In the opening post the player says they have a +2 amulet, and have spent 110K gp. If it is a +4 amulet, that would have used 96K, which one is it, or did I miss a post where things changed?
Gilear 09-20-07, 05:04 PM	OMG also, Note the number of critical hits will be 5% of your total swings times your accuracy ! 4000*57.6% = 2304 Critical Hits Look above at the number of critical hits, 2302, this enforces the fact that the code is working perfectly as intended. Again, I really hope this clears up the confusion for you guys. Burl~ Number of Hits 46054 Number of Misses 33946 Number of Critical Hits is 2302 Number of Natural 1 is 4050 Number of Natural 17 is 4006 Number of Natural 18 is 3992 Number of Natural 19 is 4038 Number of Natural 20 is 3998 Accuracy 57.6% As much as I want to wade into this.... according to your numbers 2304 critical hits on 4000 rolls of d20 would be the 57% hit rate. This makes sense. Wht you seem to be overlooking is the fighter is going to crit on FOUR ROLLS for approximately 2304 times (accounting for a miss rate). So just expanding it you would have 2304*4 criticals NOT just 2304.... you follow? So you end up with 9216 total critical hits on 80000 attacks/misses. This is 11.5% total crit % after accounting for miss rates. If you look at your statement that the 57% hit rate holds true, if you look at the BASE 20% crit rate (17-20) out of 20 BEFORE AC is factored in, then apply the hit rate to it you will get: 20*0.57= 11.4% real true landed critical strike %. Your numbers indicate that a fighter will only critical 2304 times on 80000 attacks. This would imply that of the 16000 potential critical rolls, only 14.4% landed - yielding a hit rate of 14.4% on critical strikes but 57.5% on other attacks. Your program seems to be flawed, no offense meant. It is severely underweighting damage from fighter critical strikes which you are using to claim the monk feat to be overpowered.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:08 PM	Fraglan, I'll get you the list of everything they have. From the top of my head these are the things the Fighter has, Adamantium Full Plate Mail +4 [Imbued with Greater Healing Property (Magic Item Compendium)] Flaming Greatsword +2 (2d6+2 plus 1d6 Fire Damage) Bracer's of Martial Skill +2 (+2 on hit rolls only) Helmet of Darkvision And from the top of my head these are the things the Monk has, Bracer's of Armor +3 Headband of Knowledge (I think +4 Wisdom, could be +3) Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 Belt of Dwarven Kind Cloak of Resistance +2 They both may have many other items, I just cannot remember off the top of my head, I'd need to request their Character Sheets to see.
Gilear 09-20-07, 05:12 PM	After a few posts on here he decided he'd allow us access to a magical fair to purchase some magical items (we all had 110,000 gold pieces each). Im about to branch into Sacred Fist so I picked up a +4 wisdom item, a +2 amulet of mighty fists, a +3 AC bracers, and a +2 saving throws cloak. Those 4 items cost me 110,000 gold. I didn't really care because its all I really wanted and it replaced my previously awesome gear of a +1ac cloak and a +2ar bracers. He said he had a +2 amulet not +4.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:17 PM	Sorry, the confusion in the Critical hits. The post above listed the critical range as 19-20 it was suppose to be only 20. Here is the real results for the critical range of 19-20 Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 25 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 71006 Number of Misses 8994 Number of Critical Hits is 7335 Number of Natural 1 is 3995 Accuracy 88.8% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2037243 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 101.9 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 28.7 Damage Again, same test repeated for 17-20 Testing Attack Of +34/+29/+24/+19/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+19 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 25 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 70892 Number of Misses 9108 Number of Critical Hits is 14719 Number of Natural 1 is 4122 Accuracy 88.6% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2225640 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 111.3 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 31.4 Damage
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:18 PM	I must of posted the wrong top part with the wrong bottom 1/2 of results earlier, sorry for the confusion, I hope this clarifies that the program is actually working correctly. =) Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:20 PM	"He said he had a +2 amulet not +4." Ohh sorry , it was the Helmet that was +4 Wisdom, my bad.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:22 PM	Yes I just double checked the code and its correct. If you look at the posts above the number of critical hits now statistically match fine. The problem was a error in presenting the results on these forums on my behalf and I apologize for it and with the next set of tests it will not happen again. Burl~
Gilear 09-20-07, 05:24 PM	If you look at it, the common MMO/RPG rule of 1% crit = ~ 1% extra damage appears to be holding true. Your 19-20 (10%) vs 17-20 (20%) shows a 10% difference in crit rates and damage. Anyways you've put up so many different sets of numbers/circumstances that I have no idea what you're comparing anymore lol.
rironin 09-20-07, 05:25 PM	Yes I just double checked the code and if you look at the posts above the number of critical hits now statistically match fine. The problem was a error in presentation on my behalf and I apologize for it and with the next set of tests it will not happen again. Burl~In your next test, try giving the Fighter Weapon Supremacy as I suggested before. Just make the second attack (the +29) a "take 10" roll (ah, on second thought, that's probably really hard to insert into the script...) and give the third attack +5. That will probably shake things up a bit. If you can end up squeezing another +1 to attack out of something, then you could move the take 10 over to the +24 for a much greater result and put the +5 even further back.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:29 PM	Gilear, Sorry about all the confusion LOL. I will present a more clear set of results later. But for all intensive purposes, yes the code is working perfect. rironin, That sounds pretty interesting, and yes i can modify the code very easily to add that ability. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:35 PM	Gilear and those confused, Ok I repeated these three tests just to avoid confusion. Lets just start over from this point and start discussing what sort of armor / weapons we wanna run the tests with. For right now, the following are the correctly displayed results for the Fighter, Monk and Monk with INA. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Level 20 Fighter - 30 Strength +10 Hit and +15 Damage - Greatsword +5 Hit and Damage - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +1 Hit - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +1 Hit - Weapon Specializatin (Greatsword) +2 Damage - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) +2 Damage - Melee Mastery (Greatsword) +2 Hit and +2 Damage - Improved Critical (Greatsword) Greatsword +39/+34/+29/+24 Melee (2d6+26/17-20x2) Testing Attack Of +39/+34/+29/+24/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+26 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 60988 Number of Misses 19012 Number of Critical Hits is 12318 Number of Natural 1 is 3993 Accuracy 76.2% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2419566 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 121.0 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 39.7 Damage ------------------------------------------------------------------ Level 20 Monk (without Improved Natural Attack) - 26 Strength +8 Damage - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) +1 Hit - Weapon Finesse - 30 Dexterity +10 Hit - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 Hit and +5 Damage - Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) Flurry Of Blows +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Melee (2d10+14/19-20x2) Testing Attack Of +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Testing Damage Of 2d10+14 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 64791 Number of Misses 35209 Number of Critical Hits is 6473 Number of Natural 1 is 5056 Accuracy 64.8% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 1781490 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 89.1 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 27.5 Damage ------------------------------------------------------------------ Level 20 Monk (With Improved Natural Attack) - 26 Strength +8 Damage - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) +1 Hit - Weapon Finesse - 30 Dexterity +10 Hit - Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 Hit and +5 Damage - Improved Natural Attack - Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) Flurry Of Blows +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Melee (4d8+14/19-20x2) Testing Attack Of +31/+31/+31/+26/+21 Testing Damage Of 4d8+14 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 64818 Number of Misses 35182 Number of Critical Hits is 6397 Number of Natural 1 is 4961 Accuracy 64.8% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2279928 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 114.0 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 35.2 Damage
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:37 PM	Ok, So again we see the Monk with 1 Feat achieves equivalent damage to the Fighter who has taken 6 Feats. Now what do we wanna do with this, How do you wanna rearrange Abilities and Weapons / Gear to run the next set of tests ? Burl~
Gilear 09-20-07, 05:40 PM	At this point I would suggest that you've almost made the case for that which you've argued against. It seems like the Monk is fundamentally weaker, even when specced for melee damage, and that feat allows them to close the gap. Just my 2c.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:44 PM	Gilear, The point I'm trying to make is that the Monk has access to an assortment of other abilities. The fact that 1 single feat brings their damage almost on par with a fighter, a class strictly dedicated to raw melee damage is insane. Look how many feats the fighter has specialized in to get where he is. Now look how many other abilities the fighter has ? Nothing, Like a great Fort Save and thats it. Now, examine the Monk. The Monk has good damage to begin with plus an array of other powerful abilities and good all around saving throws. Why should 1 feat bring that monk on par with the fighter ? I dont see this as balance I'm sorry. Burl~
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:47 PM	I knew more then 1/2 of the people on these boards were going to disagree with me banning "Improved Natural Attack" from my campaign. I just wanted to pop on and say why I did. Give my reasons. Its not I'm a poor DM, Its that I'm all about balance and fun. I love seeing the players combine abilities/spells to result in extreme amounts of damage, I even reward them for it with xp bonuses. But, taking 1 feat to passively increase all your damage by 33.3% is cheating in my mind. Anyways, if anyone else wants the code let me know I'll email the program to ya, and if anyone else wants a test done, I'll run it for them. Otherwise, it was great talking to all you guys. Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 05:48 PM	Yes, the fighter has spent twice as many feats (which he actually has), but the monk has spent three times as much money (which he shouldn't have), and yet the fighter is still doing a bit more damage. I'm sorry, but until you address this money discrepancy, I just can't take your arguments very seriously at all, despite your fancy spreadsheet. Logic based on faulty premises is flawed. Run a simulation with the equipment I suggested, which is approximately equal in value, and then tell me how much more damage the monk is doing. You don't even have to go crazy with the feats. Give them both Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, and nothing else. I'm still sure the fighter will do more damage.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:50 PM	PhaedrusXY, we can simply assume the Fighter has spend an equivalent amount of money to the Amulet of Mighty Fists on a suit of armor. There you go, Money discrepancy dealt with.
rironin 09-20-07, 05:51 PM	Before we all get too sassy, let's cool out. We're gonna do the gear thing. I don't think anyone thinks you're a bad DM, Burlane - I'm still very impressed that you've developed tools like these to analyze these situations! Let's just keep crunching numbers, it's fun :) Edit: Why not try giving the fighter the 150K weapon, Burlane? It's true that the monk is spending his 150K on magic weapons. It's fine to assume that the fighter might spend it on something else, but, that gets complex real quick. Let's say they both spend that money on a fancy weapon, since we're worrying about hitting the Balor, not surviving its reprisals :)
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 05:52 PM	PhaedrusXY, we can simply assume the Fighter has spend an equivalent amount of money to the Amulet of Mighty Fists on a suit of armor. There you go, Money discrepancy dealt with.NO we can't. The MONK also has to spend a crap-ton of money on boosting his AC. In fact, it is very easy to prove that he has to spend MORE to get an equal AC.
Burlane 09-20-07, 05:54 PM	PhaedrusXY, you keep crying about gear, why dont you suggest the gear both a level 20 Fighter and level 20 Monk would have when they are both allowed say $200K. Do it , Right now, Go ! Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 06:08 PM	I was already working on this when you posted. Any problems with it? The monk still spent a bit more, but not much. I also neglected Con boosting items, which the monk will need more. Stats: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 Fighter 20: +5 mithril full plate of speed (26,000 + 24,000) +5 animated heavy shield (49,000) +5 holy merciful greatsword (128,000) +5 Amulent of Natural Armor (50,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Dex 16 (12 base +4 enhancement)(16,000) Str 34 (18 +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement)(137,500 + 36,000) Con 16 Int 14 (for feats, etc) Wis 10 Cha 8 Total Spent: 516,500 Feats Selected: none AC: 44 (10+13armor+5natural+5defl+7shield+3dex+ 1dodge) Attacks: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (6d6+23)(19-20/x2) Monk 20: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000) +5 Amulent of Natural Armor (50,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150,000) Dex 20 (14 start +4 enh) (16,000) Wis 22 (16 start +4 enh) (16,000) Str 34 (18 +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement)(137,500 + 36,000) Con 12 Int 10 Cha 8 Total spent: 519,500 Feats selected: Improved Natural Attack AC: 44 (10+5monk+6wis+6dex+8armor+5defl+5nat) Attacks: +32/+32/+32/+27/+22 (4d8+17)(20/x2)
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:10 PM	+5 mithril full plate of speed (26,000 + 24,000) +5 animated heavy shield (49,000) +5 holy merciful greatsword (128,000) +5 Amulent of Natural Armor (50,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Dex 16 (12 base +4 enhancement)(16,000) Str 34 (18 +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement)(137,500 + 36,000) Total Spent: 516,500 AC: 44 (10+13armor+5natural+5defl+7shield+3dex+ 1dodge) Attacks: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (6d6+23)(19-20/x2) Where is the Fighters 5th Attack coming in ????
AlmightyCow 09-20-07, 06:16 PM	+5 mithril full plate of speed (26,000 + 24,000) Attacks: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (6d6+23)(19-20/x2) Where is the Fighters 5th Attack coming in ???? Mithril Full Plate of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralFullPlateofSpeed) Edit to say that with a standard 4-encounter day, you get 2.5 rounds of Haste per combat. If you find it insufficient, you can tack on Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed).
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:18 PM	And what about the Merciful Greatsword dealing Nonlethal Damage, I suppose I should overlook that ??
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 06:20 PM	He can turn it off, if he goes up against something immune to it. He can also turn it off to Coup De Grace anyone he's knocked out with it. It is a good choice. If you want to exchange it for some +1d6 elemental damage, fine, but at level 20, that is subpar. Thundering might not be a bad replacement, if you make it a falchion and give the fighter Improved Critical. I'd also suggest running the simulations against a few different opponents with varying armor classes, with and without Power Attack.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:21 PM	Technically the Monk could have Boots of Speed too you know.
AlmightyCow 09-20-07, 06:21 PM	He could have it, but then he'd have to give up something else. This is where the item budget matters.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:21 PM	I think if we are going to compare, we cannot include external spell effects that can boost both melee characters. Either that or give both the same effect.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:23 PM	"Why do you need to overlook it? If the monster is immune to nonlethal, one need only turn off the ability." if you turn off the ability is just a Greatsword +5 at 2d6+5 damage. So we are back to the beginning
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:23 PM	"Edit: People post faster than I do." hahahah sorry Almighty Cow
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 06:25 PM	if you turn off the ability is just a Greatsword +5 at 2d6+5 damage. So we are back to the beginningNo, it is a +5 HOLY Greatsword. It is still pretty equal to the monk's unarmed strike, even without the merciful quality turned on, unless the enemy isn't evil. And in a typical game, most are.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 06:28 PM	It knocks them out. They are removed from the fight. Any other party member (rogue) can CDG them. Or turn off Merciful (you can do that, if I remember right) and CDG them yourself. The fighter in your game spent too much money on his armor. (31,000 of his 110,000 if he had the same as the monk.) He really didn't need Adamantine, as the DR is negligible and it effectively doubled the cost of his armor. Also, Flaming is basically a waste since everything and it's brother has Fire Resist. If you allowed him, he'd say he should go for less armor and get a +1 Speed Greatsword and some Oils of Greater Magic Weapon. His damage will go up.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:29 PM	PhaedrusXY, The Holy Greatsword only deals the extra d6's if the target is evil. Otherwise is Greatsword +5..
AlmightyCow 09-20-07, 06:30 PM	Edit: Never mind.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 06:34 PM	Burlane, do your players commonly fight non-evil monsters? Out of the Core books, Vicious, Merciful, Holy, and Speed are basically the best damage adders. Personally, I like stacking elemental damage adders and keeping my weapon at +1, and just applying Oil of Greater Magic Item <shrugs>
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:35 PM	Just off topic for a second Fraglan, How long does the "Oils of Greater Magic Weapon+5" last once applied ? Is it 1 hit or duration based ? They are pretty expensive at 3000gold each ...But a good alternative as you stated.
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 06:36 PM	Here is another set giving the monk Boot's of Speed, but lowering his AC a bit, if you'd rather use that. In this one, the monk might out perform the fighter slightly. I'm not sure. I am actually pretty interested in the results. Stats: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 Fighter 20: +5 mithril full plate of speed (26,000 + 24,000) +5 animated heavy shield (49,000) +5 holy merciful greatsword (128,000) +5 Amulent of Natural Armor (50,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Dex 16 (12 base +4 enhancement)(16,000) Str 34 (18 +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement)(137,500 + 36,000) Con 16 Int 14 (for feats, etc) Wis 10 Cha 8 Total Spent: 516,500 Feats Selected: none AC: 44 (10+13armor+5natural+5defl+7shield+3dex+ 1dodge) Attacks: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (6d6+23)(19-20/x2) Monk 20: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000) +4 Amulent of Natural Armor (32,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150,000) Boots of Speed (12,000) Dex 20 (14 start +4 enh) (16,000) Wis 22 (16 start +4 enh) (16,000) Str 34 (18 +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement)(137,500 + 36,000) Con 12 Int 10 Cha 8 Total spent: 513,500 Feats selected: Improved Natural Attack AC: 43 (10+5monk+6wis+6dex+8armor+5defl+4nat) Attacks: +32/+32/+32/+32/+27/+22 (4d8+17)(20/x2) Fraglan, How long does the "Oils of Greater Magic Weapon+5" last once applied ? Is it 1 hit or duration based ? They are pretty expensive at 3000gold each ...But a good alternative as you stated.They last for 20 hours. It is just a potion with a 20th level Greater Magic Weapon spell in it. The monk can also use those, and things start getting really nuts if you start using alot of disposable items.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:36 PM	Fraglan, They are a evil oriented party. They sometimes fight evil aligned monsters / NPC's but because of their evil natures I intend to push them into fighting more Good oriented encounters.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:40 PM	PhaedrusXY, If we gave the Monk Boots of Speed, he would pick up a 6th Attack slot. Currently the program I created only allows entry of 5 attack bonuses. So I can edit it tomorrow, for now, lets ignore Haste Effects on both characters, just for tonight. Now, About the Fighter's Greatsword. If we give him a Holy Greatsword +5 the its not entirely correct to assume he will always be doing 6d6 damage with it, because they are not always fightning evil encounters....Hmm How to do with it. We could just do a non-evil and a evil based encounter for the fighter, and thus see both sides of the picture, since it wont mean much to the Monk....Of course, we both know if the encounter is evil the Monk will grossly be out-done by the Fighter if he is doing 6d6...again only for evil encounters. Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 06:40 PM	Then make it Unholy... In a typical "good vs. evil" game, Holy is one of the best weapon enhancements in the game, even if you include all the splat-book stuff. How about dropping the last iterative attack from both, instead? It will make alot less difference than the one from Haste.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:44 PM	Ok well now the encounter they are fighting is neutral =P Hahah I'll do both, 1 with 6d6 plus bonuses , the other with 2d6 plus bonuses.
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:54 PM	PhaedrusXY, Ok now what about feats ? I'm ready to run the program. What do you want the Fighter and Monk to have ? I take it the Fighter will be going Weapon Focus's , Specialization's, and Melee Mastery. The Monk is going INA. Both can go Improved Critical. Anything you wanna add to this ?? Burl~
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 06:54 PM	I'd say the occasions where the fighter would only benefit from 2d6+5 would be very rare. Golems are the only thing that comes to mind. They are neutral and immune to subdual damage. The sword should almost always be doing at least 4d6+5. I wasn't going to mess with feats. At the very least, I'd say give them equal numbers of feats, to avoid the whole "yeah but the fighter took twice as many feats" argument. I'd say just give the monk INA, and the fighter Improved Critical. But do whatever you want. It would be interesting to see a few variations, but I don't know how many simulations you want to run. I will be without internet access until tommorrow sometime, but I'll check back to see the results. I saved a link to this thread. :P
Burlane 09-20-07, 06:57 PM	Thats not really overly balanced. I mean, Lets give them the feats and compare. Technically they will have feats when playing so lets analyze it with feats included.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 06:58 PM	Just off topic for a second Fraglan, How long does the "Oils of Greater Magic Weapon+5" last once applied ? Is it 1 hit or duration based ? They are pretty expensive at 3000gold each ...But a good alternative as you stated. Their duration is the same as if cast by a cleric of the minimal caster level required to cast a +5 Greater Magic Weapon. Which would be 20? Somehow that seems wrong, but I'm tired :P (+1 per caster level, but do you get a free +1 since it says "as magic weapon, but..." here's a Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) Might be 16. Edit: As for feats, just run with what you have been using. Overall, the feat mostly add attack options.
Archangel_Tyrael 09-20-07, 07:11 PM	nvm
Burlane 09-20-07, 07:14 PM	Okay folks here we go..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- LEVEL 20 FIGHTER Equipment: +5 mithril full plate of speed (26,000 + 24,000) +5 animated heavy shield (49,000) +5 holy greatsword (128,000) +5 Amulent of Natural Armor (50,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Final Abilities: Str 34 +12 Hit/+18 Dmg (18 +5 inherent,+5 levels,+6 enhancement) Con 16 Int 14 Dex 16 (12 base +4 enhancement) Wis 10 Cha 8 AC: 44 (10+13armor+5natural+5defl+7shield+3dex+ 1dodge) Feats Selected: - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +1 Hit - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +1 Hit - Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) +2 Damage - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) +2 Damage - Melee Mastery (Greatsword) +2 Hit / +2 Damage - Improved Critical (Greatsword) Full Round Attack: ************************************ Holy Greatsword +41/+36/+31/+26 Melee (2d6+29/17-20x2) Testing Attack Of +41/+36/+31/+26/+0 Testing Damage Of 2d6+29 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 64992 Number of Misses 15008 Number of Critical Hits is 13337 Number of Natural 1 is 4011 Accuracy 81.2% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2819759 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 141.0 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 43.4 Damage ************************************ Holy Greatsword +41/+36/+31/+26 Melee (6d6+29/17-20x2) vs. Evil Encounter [ To please PhaedrusXY hehehe ] Testing Attack Of +41/+36/+31/+26/+0 Testing Damage Of 6d6+29 Per Hit (17-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 64979 Number of Misses 15021 Number of Critical Hits is 13354 Number of Natural 1 is 4054 Accuracy 81.2% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 3917143 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 195.9 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 60.3 Damage -------------------------------------------------------------------------- LEVEL 20 MONK Equipment: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000) +4 Amulent of Natural Armor (32,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000) Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150,000) Boots of Speed (12,000) Final Abilities: Dex 20 (14 start +4 enh) Wis 22 (16 start +4 enh) Str 34 (18 +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement)(137,500 + 36,000) Con 12 Int 10 Cha 8 AC: 43 (10+5monk+6wis+6dex+8armor+5defl+4nat) Feats selected: - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) - Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) - Improved Natural Attack Full Round Attack: ************************************ [Without Improved Natural Attack] Flurry Of Blows +33/+33/+33/+28/+23 Melee (2d10+17/19-20x2) Testing Attack Of +33/+33/+33/+28/+23 Testing Damage Of 2d10+17 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 75084 Number of Misses 24916 Number of Critical Hits is 7394 Number of Natural 1 is 4949 Accuracy 75.1% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2308256 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 115.4 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 30.7 Damage ************************************ [With Improved Natural Attack] Flurry Of Blows +33/+33/+33/+28/+23 Melee (4d8+17/19-20x2) Testing Attack Of +33/+33/+33/+28/+23 Testing Damage Of 4d8+17 Per Hit (19-20)x2 Testing Versus Target AC of 35 Testing Versus Target DR of 0 Testing 20000 Number Of Combat Rounds Number of Hits 75116 Number of Misses 24884 Number of Critical Hits is 7562 Number of Natural 1 is 4912 Accuracy 75.1% Total Damage Dealt In 20000 Rounds = 2893162 Damage Average Damage Per Round = 144.7 Damage Average Damage Per Hit = 38.5 Damage --------------------------------------------------- Ok, So again, we see the Fighter doing 141.0 DPR against any encounter that doesnt match his weapon. I would perfer to call this the Fighters 'normal' damage. Now, versus evil encounters the Holy Sword kicks some butt and pulls off 195.9 DPR. Now looking at the Monk, his DPR without Improved Natural Attack for 115.4. With Improved Natural Attack the Monks DPR is 144.7. So, Against non-evil encounters the Monk with INA is out damaging the Fighter. Here I'll give ya a second to review the results. Hopefully I didnt make any mistakes listing them this time, or entering them into the program >< LOL Burl~
rironin 09-20-07, 07:47 PM	I still want to see Weapon Supremacy thrown in - that would definitely increase the fighter's accuracy by a lot. Not sure where the optimal places to put the take 10 and the +5 to hit are though.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 07:48 PM	Burl, I think you forgot the Merciful damage. Merciful The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until commanded to resume it. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the merciful effect upon their ammunition. Faint conjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cure light wounds; Price +1 bonus.
Burlane 09-20-07, 07:56 PM	Burl, I think you forgot the Merciful damage. I thought we stated it was just a Holy Greatsword +5 after ? "I still want to see Weapon Supremacy thrown in - that would definitely increase the fighter's accuracy by a lot. Not sure where the optimal places to put the take 10 and the +5 to hit are though." Yup, I'll work on the Weapon Supremacy tomorrow.
Fraglan 09-20-07, 08:18 PM	From your post ;P LEVEL 20 FIGHTER Equipment: +5 mithril full plate of speed (26,000 + 24,000) +5 animated heavy shield (49,000) +5 holy merciful greatsword (128,000) +5 Amulent of Natural Armor (50,000) +5 Ring of Protection (50,000)
Burlane 09-20-07, 08:39 PM	OPPS +5 holy merciful greatsword (128,000) That was a copy and paste jobby from PhaedrusXY's post ;)
Burlane 09-20-07, 08:41 PM	Its fixed for now, I can always add in the other nonlethal later. I'm off to do some reading now, I will be around the weekend. For those that wanted the code I will email it tomorrow to everyone.
wonlee76 09-20-07, 09:36 PM	Well, if you're doing calculations using non-core material like Melee Weapon Mastery, may as well let the monk get the same benefit with the much cheaper and versatile Necklace item from Savage Species that applies to natural attacks with the added bonus of tacking on weapon enhancements such as Holy, Merciful and what have you (and priced exactly at the same rate as a magical weapon when it is only applied to 1 natural attack, which in this case would be a monk's unarmed strike).
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-21-07, 01:16 AM	Raymond_Luxury_Yacht, I think your mathematics are slightly amiss..... If you took a level 20 Fighter with the following, - 25 Strength He has 26. 15 base +5 levels +6 belt.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-21-07, 01:24 AM	lso, try giving each character 760,000 gp worth of items. That's the suggested value for 20th level characters. Another thing I would suggest is to have different people optimize the characters. I didn't optimize the monk I made in the original example as well as I should have (but then again, I didn't optimize the fighter much either). Anyways, gear wise for the Fighter, I'd suggest the following. +5 adamantine holy greatsword of speed (203,050 gp) +5 mithral full plate (35,500 gp) +5 animated heavy shield (49,170 gp) Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 gp) Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp) Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp) Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp) Ring of Blinking (27,000 gp) Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp) Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (30,000 gp) Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5,000 gp) Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone (8,000 gp) Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500 gp) Total: 692,220 gp spent For the stat array, I'd suggest Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8. Feats that would be relevant are Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and Power Attack. So, when all is said and done, here's the Fighter. Str 32, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Attack: +5 adamantine holy greatsword of speed +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 melee (2d6+25+2d6 holy 17-20/X2) Armor Class: 44 (+3 Dex, +13 armor, +7 shield, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 insight) Saves: Fort +21, Ref +16, Will +12 Hit Dice: 20d10+60 (average 174.5 hp) Someone else can build the monk.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-21-07, 01:48 AM	Well, if you're doing calculations using non-core material like Melee Weapon Mastery, may as well let the monk get the same benefit with the much cheaper and versatile Necklace item from Savage Species that applies to natural attacks with the added bonus of tacking on weapon enhancements such as Holy, Merciful and what have you (and priced exactly at the same rate as a magical weapon when it is only applied to 1 natural attack, which in this case would be a monk's unarmed strike). Savage Species is 3.0.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 09:52 AM	Savage Species is 3.0. And last I checked, 3.0 is compatible with 3.5 unless it has been specifically over written.
Gilear 09-21-07, 10:04 AM	So to me it seems like you have shown that a Fighter using a weapon vs an enemy weak to said weapon blows a monk with or without INA out of the water in terms of damage done. 190 vs 140 or 115? Come on now thats just miles ahead in terms of damage. The same fighter can have multiple verisons of this sword to affect multiple groups/enemy types. The monk can only have the one damage type from their ki strike correct? Its something like Magical and Lawful? Without INA and against an enemy not weak to the sword the Fighter appears to be significantly stronger than the monk again, when both are specced fully for melee damage (140 vs 115?) Honestly you have proven that INA, while a very strong feat (a no brainer choice really for monks), is absolutely necessary for them to have any hope of being capable damage dealers in the game. Any monk who doesn't take the feat and wants to be specced for damage is basically cementing themselves as second-rate fighters with less feats and hitpoints. Going to this length to try and disallow something thats allowed under the ruleset really strikes me as odd. Why not just let it stand (since its in the rules) and develop monsters to counter the monk? Why is it so important to prove the rule itself invalid? It sounds like a really stressful game. I like my group thats about having fun and trying to beat encounters within the rules. Oh well at least you produced a damage calculator out of this all. That was neat at least lol.
holylink718 09-21-07, 10:10 AM	My last piece of advice to you is not to push the issue with your DM. If he/she doesn't like a particular feat, don't take it. Don't however, let him/her bully you into playing a sterotypical no damage-dealing monk if that's not the character you want to play. Just do it using all the rules and feats he/she allows. I hope my advice helps. - Holylink718 Holylink718, This is what I've been stressing to Belledia. He can take a large array of other Feats that increase his damage. If he is concerned about damage, he has plenty of available options. But the "Improved Natural Attack" in my campaign isn't one of them. Like I said before, I love to see the character dish out some great damage. I want to see them Think and Work for the damage. Not just pick 1 Feat and beable to do it. That to me is cheap and dirty and makes me wanna purge. Burl~ I agree with you there. I don't like just some feat that a player (no offense, OP) finds in some sourcebook that makes his character wicked stronger. One way to counter this that my dad and I have found is to let a player take almost any feat(within reason. We've had to "modify" some before because we felt they were unbalancing), but he has to learn it from someone else. That way the DM doesn't "stunt" the growth of a character (I disagree with this, but players have used a similar arguement before) while at the same time keeping some degree of realism in the game.
Puggins 09-21-07, 10:12 AM	+5 adamantine holy greatsword of speed (203,050 gp) +5 mithral full plate (35,500 gp) +5 animated heavy shield (49,170 gp) Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 gp) Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp) Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp) Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp) Ring of Blinking (27,000 gp) Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp) Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (30,000 gp) Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5,000 gp) Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone (8,000 gp) Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500 gp) Total: 692,220 gp spent For the stat array, I'd suggest Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8. Feats that would be relevant are Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and Power Attack. So, when all is said and done, here's the Fighter. Str 32, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Attack: +5 adamantine holy greatsword of speed +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 melee (2d6+25+2d6 holy 17-20/X2) Armor Class: 44 (+3 Dex, +13 armor, +7 shield, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 insight) Saves: Fort +21, Ref +16, Will +12 Hit Dice: 20d10+60 (average 174.5 hp) Someone else can build the monk. Just to avoid all the discussion with holy, make that greatsword a Greatsword of Speed and Collision +5. Collision is in the SRD and adds a straight-up 5 points of damage, regardless of target. Burlane has said that his campaign is evil-aligned, so Holy won't be useful all the time. Collision will be, regardless of target. So his attack damage would be 2d6+30 against everything.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 10:32 AM	lso, try giving each character 760,000 gp worth of items. That's the suggested value for 20th level characters. Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. +4 to Wis, +1 to Con from leveing up Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8 Gear: Permanencied Greater Magic Fang +5: (600 gp for GFW from a level 20 caster; 1,000 gp for a permanency from a level 20 caster to avoid having it dispelled easily; 7500 gold to cover the xp cost for the permanency) TOTAL 9,100 gp 2 greater Magic Weapon Weapon +5 Oils (6,000 gp total): In case GFW gets dispelled. Several potions of Enlarge Person: (4 potions; 200 gp) Belt of Strength +6 (36,000 gp) Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp) Headband of Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp) Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp) Boots of Speed (12,000 gp) Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp) Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000 gp) Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp) Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp) Tome +4 (110,000 gp each): Str, Wis and Dex Tome +2 (55,000 gp): Con TOTAL: 749,300 gp FEATS: (8 feats total): Improved Crit: Unarmed Strike Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack Improved Natural Attack Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) Bonus Feats: IUS, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip or Disarm (I usually go Disarm and carry around a quarterstaff for disarming purposes). Final Stats with Gear + Inherent bonuses: Str 22, Dex 24, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 28, Cha 8 AC: 48 (or 49 vs. dodge opponent) (10 + 7 Dex + 13 Wisdom/Monk Levels + 8 Bracers +5 Natural Armor + 5 Deflection + 1 Dodge vs. 1 target) AC 46 if using Enlarge Person potion. Attack: +28/28/28/28/23/18 (with haste from boots of speed) dealing 4d8+12. Attack: +28/28/28/28/23/18 (with haste from boots of speed and Enlarge Person spell) dealing 6d8+13. HP: 20d8+80: Average of 150 hp SAVES: +20 Fort, +24 Reflex, +26 Will (+2 from Still Mind where applicable) (I'm not very good at calculating point buy so my starting stats may be off so feel free to tweak that to match it up with the sample fighter created below). EDIT: Removed non-core feats seeing as that just complicated matters. As an aside, why are we still comparing damage output of a monk with INA vs. a fighter? I'm pretty certain the fighter would still out-damage a monk with INA but personally I think its still a game balance concern. INA should be compared to other or similar feats that boost damage. If I invented a monk only feat that gave the monk a +10 to damage with unarmed strikes with a pre-req of 8 levels of monk, I'm pretty certain the analysis would not be "The feat is fair because the fighter will still do a crap load more damage than the monk." The comparison should be "That feat is too good because there is no other feat in the game that gives that big of a damage boost for those types of pre-requisites. "
rironin 09-21-07, 10:45 AM	Just to avoid all the discussion with holy, make that greatsword a Greatsword of Speed and Collision +5. Collision is in the SRD and adds a straight-up 5 points of damage, regardless of target. Burlane has said that his campaign is evil-aligned, so Holy won't be useful all the time. Collision will be, regardless of target. So his attack damage would be 2d6+30 against everything.I'm fairly certain there is no Collision property in the DMG or the SRD... especially if it adds a straight up 5 to damage, and doesn't have an astronomical enhancement bonus. Where did you see this ability listed? I don't recall seeing anything like it in the Magic Item Compendium either...
wonlee76 09-21-07, 10:53 AM	I'm fairly certain there is no Collision property in the DMG or the SRD... especially if it adds a straight up 5 to damage, and doesn't have an astronomical enhancement bonus. Where did you see this ability listed? I don't recall seeing anything like it in the Magic Item Compendium either... MIC and Expanded Psionics Handbook (and also in the Psionics SRD). +2 weapon enhancement for a straight +5 damage boost to the weapon.
rironin 09-21-07, 11:15 AM	MIC and Expanded Psionics Handbook (and also in the Psionics SRD). +2 weapon enhancement for a straight +5 damage boost to the weapon.Ah K, thanks. I guess it's not too bad for +2. I over-reacted a bit to it originally :) EDIT: Apologies, Puggins! I've only looked in the Psionics section of the SRD once, to check out Greater Manyshot. It never occurred to me to look for general weapon enhancements in that section. I stand corrected! :)
PhaedrusXY 09-21-07, 11:35 AM	Burl, I think you forgot the Merciful damage. I thought we stated it was just a Holy Greatsword +5 after ?One of either Merciful OR Holy should work against just about any enemy, except golems and other things that are BOTH non-evil AND immune to nonlethal damage. So against the vast majority of opponents, the sword I suggested should be doing at least 4d6. Against evil enemies that are not immune to non-lethal, it will do 6d6. So, once you factor that in, I think this shows fairly clearly that a well equipped core fighter outdamages a well equipped core monk, even if the monk has INA. I think the Collision enhancement is a good suggestion for replacing Holy, if you don't like its situational aspect. I'd leave Merciful on there. It works against most things, and you can turn it off easily against things that it doesn't work on. Also, if you want to use a range of ACs, of the 9 CR 20 monsters in the SRD, the max AC is 40, the min is 33, and the average is 36. If you expand it to CR 19-21, you get minimum 27, Avg 37, and Max 51. This data is taken from this spreadsheet program: http://www.cuberocks.net/DnD/CritterFilter/CritterFilter.php
Fraglan 09-21-07, 11:59 AM	Collision Collision weapons psionically increase their own mass at the end point of each swing or shot. Such weapons deal an extra 5 points of damage on each successful strike, in addition to the weapon’s enhancement bonus. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow the extra damage upon their ammunition. Moderate metacreativity; ML 10th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, matter manipulation; Price +2 bonus. From the Psionic part of the SRD. Burl, I'm starting to think a lot of the trouble is because INA scales, and none of the Fighter feats do. What feats were you referring too that would increase the Monks damage? I don't recall what sourcebooks you are allowing. Too, I think some of the problems come from your Fighter making subpar choices in equipment (and probably feats). A fighter could use a reach weapon, giving him more versatility over the Monk. He will also have an easier time dealing with DR if he simply adds a +1 Cold Iron Morningstar to his arsenal and a few pots of Silversheen. We've shown that Monks and Fighters can do Similar damage and have exactly the same AC here. The fighter gets more feats, the Monk gets class features. The fighter also gets more powerful the more splat books you add. A fighter focused purely on damage is going to come out behind nearly every other melee character. He needs to be making use of AoOs and reach, as well as trip weapons. And Sundering.
Puggins 09-21-07, 12:08 PM	Permanencied Greater Magic Fang +5: (600 gp for GFW from a level 20 caster; 1,000 gp for a permanency from a level 20 caster to avoid having it dispelled easily; 7500 gold to cover the xp cost for the permanency) TOTAL 9,100 gp 2 greater Magic Weapon Weapon +5 Oils (6,000 gp total): In case GFW gets dispelled. Several potions of Enlarge Person: (4 potions; 200 gp) To keep things similar between the characters, I think you shouldn't do this. The fighter could do the exact same thing, making his sword cost less than 50k. Also, the fighter can use potions of Enlarge Person as well. To keep things equal, give the monk an amulet of natural fists.
PhaedrusXY 09-21-07, 12:22 PM	To keep things similar between the characters, I think you shouldn't do this. The fighter could do the exact same thing, making his sword cost less than 50k. Also, the fighter can use potions of Enlarge Person as well. To keep things equal, give the monk an amulet of natural fists.Yeah, I was trying to avoid using a bunch of one-shot items. They are quite unbalancing in situations like this. They are too expensive to use all the time in a real game, and so are unrealistic. However, if I were actually playing the fighter, I would buy a bunch of +1 weapons with different properties (Holy, Bane, Flaming, Acidic, etc) and materials (Cold Iron, Adamantine, etc), and then work out a deal with the party cleric to cast Greater Magic Weapon on whichever one I expected to be using the most for the day. Fighting demons? Whip out the +1 Cold Iron, Holy, Evil Outsider Bane weapon, and have the cleric "magic" it to +5. Fighting Devils? Use Silversheen on that weapon. The monk doesn't even have this option, unless he wants to use his sub-par monk weapons, or can use the Necklace of Natural Attacks from Savage Species.
rironin 09-21-07, 01:12 PM	Yeah, I was trying to avoid using a bunch of one-shot items. They are quite unbalancing in situations like this. They are too expensive to use all the time in a real game, and so are unrealistic. However, if I were actually playing the fighter, I would buy a bunch of +1 weapons with different properties (Holy, Bane, Flaming, Acidic, etc) and materials (Cold Iron, Adamantine, etc), and then work out a deal with the party cleric to cast Greater Magic Weapon on whichever one I expected to be using the most for the day. Fighting demons? Whip out the +1 Cold Iron, Holy, Evil Outsider Bane weapon, and have the cleric "magic" it to +5. Fighting Devils? Use Silversheen on that weapon. The monk doesn't even have this option, unless he wants to use his sub-par monk weapons, or can use the Necklace of Natural Attacks from Savage Species.While it doesn't prove anything, we could ask Burlane to run the monk simulation with DR applying (as if he had no way to overcome it) and the fighter simulation without, since most high level fighters would be ready for such things. We've been taking the DR out of the equation for all of the previous runs, haven't we? If anything, it would be a good demonstration of how a well-prepared fighter can easily overcome the DR of many creatures and end up scoring significantly more damage than the monk.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 02:07 PM	To keep things similar between the characters, I think you shouldn't do this. The fighter could do the exact same thing, making his sword cost less than 50k. Also, the fighter can use potions of Enlarge Person as well. To keep things equal, give the monk an amulet of natural fists. But that is perfectly legit within the rules. Just as a fighter with a +1 weapon and a multitude of enhancements on his weapon who carries around pots of Greater Magic Weapon +5 oil for 3,000 gp a pop. The difference in pricing is permanencied unarmed strikes is a lot cheaper in the long run compared to carrying around a multitude of +5 GMW oils or paying for an Amulet of Mighty Fists even if you take into account the occasional dispel magic. Its legit use of the rules just as its legit for the sample fighter to have his custom made +5 Collision Merciful Wounding Greatsword or whatever it is he is trying to use/buy.
Fraglan 09-21-07, 02:10 PM	But that is perfectly legit within the rules. Just as a fighter with a +1 weapon and a multitude of enhancements on his weapon who carries around pots of Greater Magic Weapon +5 oil for 3,000 gp a pop. The difference in pricing is permanencied unarmed strikes is a lot cheaper in the long run compared to carrying around a multitude of +5 GMW oils or paying for an Amulet of Mighty Fists even if you take into account the occasional dispel magic. Its legit use of the rules just as its legit for the sample fighter to have his custom made +5 Collision Merciful Wounding Greatsword or whatever it is he is trying to use/buy. If we are going to do that for the monk, can the fighter have a permanent True Strike weapon and Power Attack for +40 damage every round? Seriously, the fighter is more likely to use Oils than a Monk is, since the fighter has the ability to stack +damage enhancements, and the Monk does not.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 02:22 PM	If we are going to do that for the monk, can the fighter have a permanent True Strike weapon and Power Attack for +40 damage every round? Permanencied Greater Magic Fang is well within the RAW (see the permanency spell if you don't believe me). A permanent True Striking weapon is DM's discretion where I would imagine every DM would not allow and even if they did, its a +20 to hit every other round for 1 attack using up a standard action to If the fighter is willing to do that every other round, I'm pretty certain in the two rounds for the fighter to pull that off, a monk could do more damage by full attacking for those two rounds. Seriously, the fighter is more likely to use Oils than a Monk is, since the fighter has the ability to stack +damage enhancements, and the Monk does not. That's very true but it is not very cost effective for a fighter to do that. Its 3,000 gold for a +5 GMW oil that has a duration of 20 hours. The permanencied greater magic fang costs a little over 9,000 gold. 3 days of use of that pays off the cost of 3 GMW oils. Compare that to the 150,000 gold price for an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5. I would say its a wise expenditure of gold for a monk but not as wise for a fighter. Keep in mind, I did not imply that the monk's groupmate would be using their own resources to give the monk this benefit (ie. the party cleric, wizard or druid using GMW/GFW to the monk) but rather he's using his own resources for a permanent effect that admitingly could be dispelled at some future date but as mentioned previously, getting it re-permanencied is still a crap load cheaper then plopping down 150k for a +5 amulet of mighty fists.
Puggins 09-21-07, 03:40 PM	Fine. Let's replace the fighter's weapon like so: The Fighter now has a Greatsword of Speed, Collision and Morphing +1. Morphing might be the wrong name for it- it's the property in the MIC that allows the sword to change into any material that's necessary to bypass damage reduction. I believe it's a +2 or +3 property. The fighter also has 5 oils of greater magic weapon +5. This is both cheaper and brings the fighter in line with Wonlee's monk. Now let's see how badly the fighter obliterates the monk against the big bad DR 15/Cold Iron monster.
McPoyo 09-21-07, 04:09 PM	The Fighter now has a Greatsword of Speed, Collision and Morphing +1. Metalline is the property you are looking for, not Morphing.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 04:17 PM	Fine. Let's replace the fighter's weapon like so: The Fighter now has a Greatsword of Speed, Collision and Morphing +1. Morphing might be the wrong name for it- it's the property in the MIC that allows the sword to change into any material that's necessary to bypass damage reduction. I believe it's a +2 or +3 property. The fighter also has 5 oils of greater magic weapon +5. This is both cheaper and brings the fighter in line with Wonlee's monk. Now let's see how badly the fighter obliterates the monk against the big bad DR 15/Cold Iron monster. One small problem. That just allows the fighter to outdamage the monk with a permanencied Greater Magic Fang for 5 days (5 vials of GMW). What about the days when he runs out of the oil while the monk is still going strong with his permanencied Greater Magic Fang (barring the monk getting a successful targetted Greater Dispel Magic of course). EDIT: And the weapon property you're thinking of is Shadowstriking (+3) from Tome of Magic under the Shadow Magic section of the book. It'll allow a metallic melee weapon bypass any DR/Align or DR?Metal. DR/damage type and DR/- or Epic still apply normally obviously. Addtional Edit: And if we're going to start introducing supplemental material, I'll one up your shadowstriking weapon enhancement with an Oil of Greater Mighty Wallop from the Dragon Magic book at CL 20 in order to make it harder to dispel mostly for the cost of 3,000 gold (Duration 20 hours; increases damage of a bludgeoning weapon by 5 size categories, maximum of collosal size damage meaning the monk can now dish out 12d8 damage per hit with his unarmed strike. A fighter with a bludgeoning weapon could also get this benefit but I think the max a fighter type could do is 6d8 per hit. Monk still gets the edge on that particular spell). Last Edit guys, I promise: This is verring way off topic I think. Simply put, depending on design and what supplements are allowed, a monk could be designed to do more damage than a fighter and a fighter could be designed to do more damage than a monk. The original topic is whether its "fair" that a monk for the cost of one feat can substantially improve his damage. As I mentioned several posts ago, almost every feat I can think of that improves damage either has: A) More pre-reqs in order to do more damage than INA on a monk. B) Is part of a feat chain requiring the use of more than 1 feat in order to match the effectiveness of INA. C) The bonus damage is limited in some capacity or comes with a price (ie. Power Attack, Iron Fist, etc.).
Fraglan 09-21-07, 04:55 PM	Permanencied Greater Magic Fang is well within the RAW (see the permanency spell if you don't believe me). A permanent True Striking weapon is DM's discretion where I would imagine every DM would not allow and even if they did, its a +20 to hit every other round for 1 attack using up a standard action to If the fighter is willing to do that every other round, I'm pretty certain in the two rounds for the fighter to pull that off, a monk could do more damage by full attacking for those two rounds. I can honestly say I would not allow a Monk to do that, given the cost of the Amulet of Mighty Fists, for the same reason I would not allow a permanent True Strike effect on a Sword for any character. If you do that, remember, the Fighter can get Enlarge person the same way. I do not think INA for monks is unbalanced. I think Fighters and their 'bonus' feats need help. INA scales as you level, whereas Weapon Spec does not. +2 damage at 4th level is helpful. At 20th level its freakin' useless. The lack of scalability for 90% of all the feats out there is why melee types lag SO far behind full casters after 5th level. Its just worse if you stick to core only, since it limits the fighter so much more than the Monk (large number of bonus feats, very limited selection)
Puggins 09-21-07, 05:07 PM	One small problem. That just allows the fighter to outdamage the monk with a permanencied Greater Magic Fang for 5 days (5 vials of GMW). What about the days when he runs out of the oil while the monk is still going strong with his permanencied Greater Magic Fang (barring the monk getting a successful targetted Greater Dispel Magic of course). There's the rub, no? One targeted Dispel Magic and your investment goes *poof*. If Burlane is worried about Merciful not being applicable, then he would most certainly be worried about a dispellable effect. EDIT: And the weapon property you're thinking of is Shadowstriking (+3) from Tome of Magic under the Shadow Magic section of the book. It'll allow a metallic melee weapon bypass any DR/Align or DR?Metal. DR/damage type and DR/- or Epic still apply normally obviously. Aha! That's right... though isn't there an equivalent in the MIC? Addtional Edit: And if we're going to start introducing supplemental material, I'll one up your shadowstriking weapon enhancement with an Oil of Greater Mighty Wallop from the Dragon Magic book at CL 20 in order to make it harder to dispel mostly for the cost of 3,000 gold (Duration 20 hours; increases damage of a bludgeoning weapon by 5 size categories, maximum of collosal size damage meaning the monk can now dish out 12d8 damage per hit with his unarmed strike. A fighter with a bludgeoning weapon could also get this benefit but I think the max a fighter type could do is 6d8 per hit. Monk still gets the edge on that particular spell). True enough, though where did you get 12d8? I can't reach 12. Last Edit guys, I promise: This is verring way off topic I think. Simply put, depending on design and what supplements are allowed, a monk could be designed to do more damage than a fighter and a fighter could be designed to do more damage than a monk. The original topic is whether its "fair" that a monk for the cost of one feat can substantially improve his damage. As I mentioned several posts ago, almost every feat I can think of that improves damage either has: A) More pre-reqs in order to do more damage than INA on a monk. B) Is part of a feat chain requiring the use of more than 1 feat in order to match the effectiveness of INA. C) The bonus damage is limited in some capacity or comes with a price (ie. Power Attack, Iron Fist, etc.). I think we can all agree on this (except for Burlane, apparently). I certainly wasn't arguing to the contrary.
rironin 09-21-07, 05:10 PM	I can honestly say I would not allow a Monk to do that, given the cost of the Amulet of Mighty Fists, for the same reason I would not allow a permanent True Strike effect on a Sword for any character.Yeah, but as wonlee76 pointed out, the RAW totally allows the monk to do this, and the RAW definitely does not allow you to create a permanent True Strike sword (at least not one that works like munchkins think it should). You're sort of comparing apples to oranges here. Love it or hate it, I don't see how paying for a casting of permanency'd greater magic fang is anything but intended by the rules. The only thing I wonder about with the monk is whether or not the spell can be cast on the monk's "unarmed strike" and if that would cover all possible striking surfaces of the monk's body, rather than the norm of casting on a single natural weapon like bite or claw. Even though I'm hoping the fighter can out damage the monk, and I hope that the fighter will also be more versatile than the monk at later levels, it seems to me that the point is being driven home that INA provides an enormous benefit for one feat. Too much of a benefit? Still not absolutely sure, but... I'm starting to lean that way myself.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 05:22 PM	There's the rub, no? One targeted Dispel Magic and your investment goes *poof*. If Burlane is worried about Merciful not being applicable, then he would most certainly be worried about a dispellable effect. Actually, its a 45% chance or less that a Greater Dispel Magic will work. A world of difference from automatically removing it and a certain chance of dispelling it. Considering I'm paying less than 10% of the price of an Amulet of mighty Fists +5 as compared to getting a permanencied greater magic fang, I will take those odds. It will take several successful Greater Dispel Magics before the costs of permanencied greater magic fang will be higher than the costs of the amulet. Aha! That's right... though isn't there an equivalent in the MIC? Not that I'm aware of. I believe its only in Tome of Magic. Metalline and/or Sure Striking might be in MIC though and the combined enhancement bonus for those two weapon enhancements is equal to Shadow Strking. True enough, though where did you get 12d8? I can't reach 12. Medium Sized Monk: 2d10 Large Sized Monk: 4d8 Huge Sized Monk: 6d8 Gargantuan Sized Monk: 8d8 Collosal Sized Monk: 12d8 As I said, a fighter could also pull this trick off with a bludgeoning weapon but I think the best a fighter can hope for is 6d6 or 6d8 damage with a weapon that had a base damage of 1d12 or 2d6. I think we can all agree on this (except for Burlane, apparently). I certainly wasn't arguing to the contrary. I'm not in disagreement that a well built fighter will outdamage a monk with INA. I just think that's a poor test to determine whether INA is overpowered or not. Comparing it to other or similar feats that boosts damage is a more fair comparison in my opinion and the only feat that comes close to doing better than INA for damage is power attack in the hands of a full BAB Two Handed Weapon melee type and even then, with flurry of blows for 2 extra attacks, I'm not sure how that calculation will work out.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 05:31 PM	I can honestly say I would not allow a Monk to do that, given the cost of the Amulet of Mighty Fists, for the same reason I would not allow a permanent True Strike effect on a Sword for any character. If you get to rule 0 something that is perfectly permitted under RAW, then I get to rule 0 Power Attack. :P See where that gets you. You want to stack the deck against the monk as much as possible while I made a perfectly legit monk (who was using 28 point buy. I think the sample fighter used is of a higher point buy); then I should be allowed to ban certain things within the rules that favors the fight. Oddly enough, I find it bizarre that you from a balance concern would not allow a Greater Magic Fang which is permitted by RAW because of the price discrepency between the costs of permanency vs. the Amulet of Mighty Fists. If you use that same reasoning, wouldn't you ban INA because its better than Weapon Specialization? Weapon Specialization only gives a +2 to damage with a specific weapon and requires 4 fighter levels and Weapon Focus as a pre-req. INA only has a BAB pre-req and gives a monk anywhere between +3.5 average damage up to +7 average damage.
Fraglan 09-21-07, 06:14 PM	If you use that same reasoning, wouldn't you ban INA because its better than Weapon Specialization? Weapon Specialization only gives a +2 to damage with a specific weapon and requires 4 fighter levels and Weapon Focus as a pre-req. INA only has a BAB pre-req and gives a monk anywhere between +3.5 average damage up to +7 average damage. I improve Weapon Spec in my games ;) Its +2 per four fighter levels. Weapon Focus is +1 per three fighter levels. Burlane, I am going to send you a PM with something that might be a good compromise for you and your Monk player, I hunted around for it long enough :P BTW, you guys are Rule 0ing something that is perfectly acceptable by RAW by disallowing a Monk to take INA :P The problem isn't that INA is too powerful, the problem is that Weapon Spec and Focus are too damn weak.
wonlee76 09-21-07, 09:23 PM	I improve Weapon Spec in my games ;) Its +2 per four fighter levels. Weapon Focus is +1 per three fighter levels. Now that's the rub in your game. Because you "believe" weapon focus/spec is underpowered, you powered them up. In your campaign, comparing INA to Weapon Spec/Focus is now irrelevant because you powered them up. Not that I disagree with you powering them up but now its not a fair comparison now is it? In a campaign where Weapon Focus/Spec is not powered up, how does INA compare to that? Not so well in comparison does it? BTW, you guys are Rule 0ing something that is perfectly acceptable by RAW by disallowing a Monk to take INA :P The problem isn't that INA is too powerful, the problem is that Weapon Spec and Focus are too damn weak. And you were suggesting rule zero'ing the use of Permanency + Greater Magic Fang because the Amulet of Mighty Fists costs 150,000 gold as compared to the costs of getting a Caster level 20 GFW + Caster Level 20 Permanency... Just because I found a cheaper method to get the same benefit as an Amulet of Mighty Fist +5 doesn't mean you should rule zero it. I'm not disputing that the RAW allows INA to work with a monk's unarmed strike. I'm taking a look at whether its balanced that a feat that boosts the damage of a monk's unarmed strike by on average +3.5 damage to +7 damage is fair or not. In your game where Weapon Spec scales up to +10 to damage with a specific weapon, INA on monks is balanced. (+10 damage on a feat where there is 1 feat pre-req vs. a feat with only a BAB pre-req that improves damage on average by +3.5 to +7). In other games where Weapon Spec isn't so generously upgraded or even in games where the benefit is doubled, INA still does better than Weapon Spec.
Fraglan 09-21-07, 10:12 PM	And you were suggesting rule zero'ing the use of Permanency + Greater Magic Fang because the Amulet of Mighty Fists costs 150,000 gold as compared to the costs of getting a Caster level 20 GFW + Caster Level 20 Permanency... Just because I found a cheaper method to get the same benefit as an Amulet of Mighty Fist +5 doesn't mean you should rule zero it. Actually, that is much the same argument I remember people using against an item of continuous True Strike. It is legal, if you look at the item creation rules. It would probably be a wondrous item, in the glove slot. Feats. Don't. Scale. That is the heart of the problem. Spells scale. Magic Items scale. But feats remain just as powerful when you get them as when you end the game. INA breaks this mold, that makes it more powerful than standard feats. I still feel that INA is balanced for Monks. Fighters have other advantages that cannot be quantified by a damage calculator. They require fewer ability scores to be effective. They have access to a wider range of damage types. They can use different weapons for different situations. Hell, they can multi-class, and then still level as a Fighter :P Too, the more books you allow access to, the better the fighter gets when compared to other melee classes. Access to a wider range of feats has the same (if less noticeable) effect as having access to a wider range of spells does for the Wizard. I really do think the large difference in this group is that the Monk player is just flat out better at building a character mechanically. The Adamantine armor on the Fighter kinda clinched it for me. I'd CONSIDER a monk in a game that allowed INA. I'd probably end up going with a Fighter/Barbarian mix though. In a game that did not allow INA? No way in hell. Just not worth it. (The only time monks get stupid is when you stack Greater Mighty Wallop, Monk's Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike and Fang Ring along with Enlarge Person. Then yeah, it's ridiculous.) But I am going to bow out of the debate now. We are never going to convince each other ;) Enjoy your gaming.
wonlee76 09-22-07, 12:56 AM	Actually, that is much the same argument I remember people using against an item of continuous True Strike. It is legal, if you look at the item creation rules. It would probably be a wondrous item, in the glove slot. Feats. Don't. Scale. First, we're talking about a spell (permanency) and what it is capable of. Not a magical item. By the rules, there's a prices for hiring spellcasters to use spells. Its not under the item creation rules. Its under the equipment section. So apples and oranges since as someone earlier pointed out, a permanencied spell is not really permanent seeing a successful dispel magic can knock it out. You don't see too many magical items getting permanently knocked out by a greater dispel magic now do you? That is the heart of the problem. Spells scale. Magic Items scale. But feats remain just as powerful when you get them as when you end the game. INA breaks this mold, that makes it more powerful than standard feats. I still feel that INA is balanced for Monks. Fighters have other advantages that cannot be quantified by a damage calculator. They require fewer ability scores to be effective. They have access to a wider range of damage types. They can use different weapons for different situations. Hell, they can multi-class, and then still level as a Fighter :P I'm glad that finally you noticed the crux of my argument. INA breaks the mold in the context of Monks applying it to unarmed strikes. Apply it to a monster for 1 single natural attack, it really is a pretty much in line with other damage boosting feats since natural attacks are limited to 1 attack/round and doesn't get the benefit of multiple attacks for a high BAB. Monk's unarmed strikes don't follow that particular restriction. Too, the more books you allow access to, the better the fighter gets when compared to other melee classes. Access to a wider range of feats has the same (if less noticeable) effect as having access to a wider range of spells does for the Wizard. And completely irrelevant to this discussion. More supplements gives players of all ranges more options and generally make them more powerful or at the very least, makes certain "concepts" more feasible whether its through magical items, feats or spells. I'd CONSIDER a monk in a game that allowed INA. I'd probably end up going with a Fighter/Barbarian mix though. In a game that did not allow INA? No way in hell. Just not worth it. Why is INA that important to you for a monk PC? Because you recognize that it is a powerful feat and an excellent way to improve unarmed strike damage that does more than any other feat in the game. (The only time monks get stupid is when you stack Greater Mighty Wallop, Monk's Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike and Fang Ring along with Enlarge Person. Then yeah, it's ridiculous.) Read these items very carefully... not all of them stack together. Greater Mighty Wallop is pretty much the ultimate damage boost for a monk but the spell has a cap and doesn't actually improve your size makinG Fang Ring or Enlarge Person unstackable with it. :P But I am going to bow out of the debate now. We are never going to convince each other ;) Enjoy your gaming. I think our primary reason why there is a disagreement is you're looking at it from a Fighter vs. Monk with INA balance. I'm looking at it as INA vs. other similar feats and even with every single supplement that has come out, no feat does "better" for "less" than INA for a damage boost. Its apparent to me that you like the fighter class. YOu boosted the usefulness of Weapon Spec/Focus to make the fighter class more attractive. I find it odd that you don't find it odd that the monk with INA is the only other class that doesn't require houseruling to get a similar benefit as a fighter thus narrowing the gap between damage capability of a monk vs. fighter (whatever that gap may be).
Burlane 09-22-07, 09:53 AM	Wow. This thread is really generating alot of great feedback. Thanks for all the opinions, suggestions and discussions guys. But...I realized something the other day. If you dig deep enough into the origin of the Monk being allowed "Improved Natural Attack", you will see that it comes from Dragon Magazine. Now, from what a local Wizards Representative has told me first hand, "Dragon Magazine is not the official DnD ruleset. It is a Area 51 test bed for additional rules". Now, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldnt that mean "Improved Natural Attack" applying to anything but a monster isnt in the actual official DnD ruleset ? I'm pretty sure it means its a optional house-rule if your taking it from Dragon Magazine. Thus really all this argument and discussion over whether I'm being fair or not is really about nothing. Since I follow the official core 3.5 ruleset with Complete Supplements. Burl~
Burlane 09-22-07, 09:55 AM	I also just realized that in alot of our tests the Monk had purchases two necklaces, Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and a Amulet of Mighty Fists +5....
holylink718 09-22-07, 10:35 AM	Wow. This thread is really generating alot of great feedback. Thanks for all the opinions, suggestions and discussions guys. But...I realized something the other day. If you dig deep enough into the origin of the Monk being allowed "Improved Natural Attack", you will see that it comes from Dragon Magazine. Now, from what a local Wizards Representative has told me first hand, "Dragon Magazine is not the official DnD ruleset. It is a Area 51 test bed for additional rules". Now, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldnt that mean "Improved Natural Attack" applying to anything but a monster isnt in the actual official DnD ruleset ? I'm pretty sure it means its a optional house-rule if your taking it from Dragon Magazine. Thus really all this argument and discussion over whether I'm being fair or not is really about nothing. Since I follow the official core 3.5 ruleset with Complete Supplements. Burl~ My thoughts exactly. I've always thought of Improved Natural Attack to be a feat that a monstrous character could take. I don't think I'd allow a monk character to take INA for all the fuss it's brought up here. The monk isn't intended to do as much damage as a fighter. Period. At the same time, the fighter's AC shouldn't be as high as the monk's. Once again, period. Damage is the strength of the fighter, high AC is the strength of the monk (In my opinion, as I read it in the description of the two stated classes in the PHB).
Fraglan 09-22-07, 04:33 PM	Wow. This thread is really generating alot of great feedback. Thanks for all the opinions, suggestions and discussions guys. But...I realized something the other day. If you dig deep enough into the origin of the Monk being allowed "Improved Natural Attack", you will see that it comes from Dragon Magazine. Now, from what a local Wizards Representative has told me first hand, "Dragon Magazine is not the official DnD ruleset. It is a Area 51 test bed for additional rules". Now, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldnt that mean "Improved Natural Attack" applying to anything but a monster isnt in the actual official DnD ruleset ? I'm pretty sure it means its a optional house-rule if your taking it from Dragon Magazine. Thus really all this argument and discussion over whether I'm being fair or not is really about nothing. Since I follow the official core 3.5 ruleset with Complete Supplements. Burl~ Actually, its in Sage Advise, which is official. I think you can find it in the FAQ as well. There have been other sources for it. First, we're talking about a spell (permanency) and what it is capable of. Not a magical item. By the rules, there's a prices for hiring spellcasters to use spells. Its not under the item creation rules. Its under the equipment section. So apples and oranges since as someone earlier pointed out, a permanencied spell is not really permanent seeing a successful dispel magic can knock it out. You don't see too many magical items getting permanently knocked out by a greater dispel magic now do you? I disagree with this ENTIRE section. You can commission a mage to build you a custom magical item. How else do Fighters in high level games get the weapon they want? You cannot pick and choose which rules are going to be used and which ones are not. If it is legal for you to hire a spellcaster to cast Greater Magic Fang, it should be legal for a Fighter to have a custom item made. It's not apples and oranges. It's the same rules. What chapter they fall in doesn't really matter. For that matter, the Fighter could take Leadership (which isn't a stretch with the amount of feats he gets) and have a lackey make it for him. If you really want a fair comparison, it should be the abilities and equipment of the class, not what you can pay someone to do for you. Not only that, but the sample fight is against a Balor, who has Greater Dispel Magic, and the Int to blow your enchantment off :P You don't have to agree with the way I think about it, but you saying your rules are better than mine is ridiculous. I'm glad that finally you noticed the crux of my argument. INA breaks the mold in the context of Monks applying it to unarmed strikes. Apply it to a monster for 1 single natural attack, it really is a pretty much in line with other damage boosting feats since natural attacks are limited to 1 attack/round and doesn't get the benefit of multiple attacks for a high BAB. Monk's unarmed strikes don't follow that particular restriction. I fall to see how that relates to anything I said in the previous paragraph. Does that mean we should ban Greater Magic Fang and Greater Magic Weapon for Monks since they are applying it to their entire body instead of one weapon, natural or otherwise? And completely irrelevant to this discussion. More supplements gives players of all ranges more options and generally make them more powerful or at the very least, makes certain "concepts" more feasible whether its through magical items, feats or spells. Not really. More books helps a fighter more than it helps a Monk. We've been sticking to mostly Core only, but the sad fact is a Core only fighter is probably the worst PC in the game. Why is INA that important to you for a monk PC? Because you recognize that it is a powerful feat and an excellent way to improve unarmed strike damage that does more than any other feat in the game. It makes a Monk viable. Without it they don't do the damage to be helpful in combat. They have stealth skills, and no real social skills. Their AC is about the same as everyone elses at higher levels. They are alright at lower levels, but without INA they cannot hold their own, and become dead weight. Its apparent to me that you like the fighter class. YOu boosted the usefulness of Weapon Spec/Focus to make the fighter class more attractive. I find it odd that you don't find it odd that the monk with INA is the only other class that doesn't require houseruling to get a similar benefit as a fighter thus narrowing the gap between damage capability of a monk vs. fighter (whatever that gap may be) I hate the fighter class. I hate all melee classes, I usually play casters. I find it odd that you don't find it odd that all feats should work like INA. I think INA is what melee feats SHOULD be. Not weapon focus.
wonlee76 09-22-07, 09:22 PM	I disagree with this ENTIRE section. You can commission a mage to build you a custom magical item. How else do Fighters in high level games get the weapon they want? You cannot pick and choose which rules are going to be used and which ones are not. If it is legal for you to hire a spellcaster to cast Greater Magic Fang, it should be legal for a Fighter to have a custom item made. It's not apples and oranges. It's the same rules. What chapter they fall in doesn't really matter. For that matter, the Fighter could take Leadership (which isn't a stretch with the amount of feats he gets) and have a lackey make it for him. If you really want a fair comparison, it should be the abilities and equipment of the class, not what you can pay someone to do for you. Not only that, but the sample fight is against a Balor, who has Greater Dispel Magic, and the Int to blow your enchantment off :P You don't have to agree with the way I think about it, but you saying your rules are better than mine is ridiculous. The apples and oranges remark was the cost for a permanencied greater magic fang. It has a permanent duration but it can be dispelled unlike a magical item. I have no problems of a fighter commissioning his uber magical weapon or suit of armor. Neither should a monk be prevented from hiring a NPC spellcaster to get a permanencied greater magic fang either. Its a double standard where you let the PC fighter hire an NPC wizard to make his custom magical weapon/armor but bar the monk from doing something similar like hiring an NPC druid/wizard to get a permanencied Greater Magic Fang. And by your "fair" competition, how the hell does a fighter get magical weapons and armor since that's outside of his own personal class abilities other than leadership and having a cohort do it? If that's your idea of fair, a monk PC could do the same exact thing. If you want it "completely" fair, put a level 20 fighter with his class features and no magical items vs. a monk with no magical items vs. some CR appropriate monster and see which does better average damage in the long run? And keep in mind, greater dispel magic could knock off the permanent greater magic fang. It doesn't mean that the balor or BBEG is going to be successful in doing so. :P Not really. More books helps a fighter more than it helps a Monk. We've been sticking to mostly Core only, but the sad fact is a Core only fighter is probably the worst PC in the game. I got no real disagreement on this but more books help all classes to some degree unless all those new feats they publish have a "Fighter X" pre-requisite to it. It makes a Monk viable. Without it they don't do the damage to be helpful in combat. They have stealth skills, and no real social skills. Their AC is about the same as everyone elses at higher levels. They are alright at lower levels, but without INA they cannot hold their own, and become dead weight. Now you're comparing monk vs. every other class instead of looking at the feat, INA vs. every other feat. The fact that the monk's AC is about the same as everyone else's at high levels has no bearing on the "balance" of INA unless you houseruled INA to not only improve unarmed strikes but grant a +1 for every 4 monk level boost to AC as well seeing as you seem to like houserules and that does have bearing on how "balanced" the INA feat when applied to monks is. Monk without INA can deal "decent" damage. Not the greatest amount but decent. I'm sure there's enough ways to twink out a monk where that unarmed strike can be a lot more potent without INA but that depends on a PC's "build", not the magic bullet of a single feat that grants the damage boost all day long. I find it odd that you don't find it odd that all feats should work like INA. I think INA is what melee feats SHOULD be. Not weapon focus. That's a great opinion to have but unfortunately as the system is set up now (maybe 4E might change this but that's an issue to look at when the time comes), its just not true. But don't let your opinion color this argument with thinking INA is perfectly reasonable.
Matthew77 09-23-07, 06:54 AM	Not that I'm aware of. I believe its only in Tome of Magic. Metalline and/or Sure Striking might be in MIC though and the combined enhancement bonus for those two weapon enhancements is equal to Shadow Strking. MIC - Transmuting. +2 bonus weapon enhancement, when you hit a target with DR, your weapon changes to overcome that DR for the next 10 rounds. Oh, and INA is not overpowered compared to other feats. Natural weapons generally suck compared to manufactured weapons. A feat that takes an ability from weak to mediocre is not overpowered, regardless of how much of an improvement it is. Its about the same as improved trip or improved bull rush. It turns a worthless attack into a situationally viable alternative.
PhaedrusXY 09-23-07, 04:48 PM	Even if you give the monk permanent greater magic fang, the fighter will still outdamage him with a decent weapon, and be able to bypass damage reduction alot more easily. It just saves the monk alot of money, but does exactly the same thing as the amulet of mighty fists.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 09-23-07, 06:05 PM	How exactly is the monk getting greater magic fang cast on him? Doesn't the SRD state that NPC wizards won't cast spells with that high of an xp cost?
wonlee76 09-23-07, 08:48 PM	How exactly is the monk getting greater magic fang cast on him? Doesn't the SRD state that NPC wizards won't cast spells with that high of an xp cost? If that rule was true, how the hell does a fighter ever get his weapons/armor enchanted by a wizard? That costs xp too. Not to mention the existence of the Tomes that raise your stats. Those cost even more xp.
wonlee76 09-23-07, 09:02 PM	Oh, and INA is not overpowered compared to other feats. Natural weapons generally suck compared to manufactured weapons. A feat that takes an ability from weak to mediocre is not overpowered, regardless of how much of an improvement it is. I agree that natural weapons suck but a monk's unarmed strike has several differences from the usual natural attack. Mainly, you can get multiple attacks with an unarmed strike while a natural attack doesn't get that benefit. So the boost in damage now is extended to not 1 attack/round but rather 3-6 attacks per round. Its about the same as improved trip or improved bull rush. It turns a worthless attack into a situationally viable alternative. I would never categorize a monk's unarmed strike as being a worthless attack and INA suddenly making it a viable "alternative." Even if you give the monk permanent greater magic fang, the fighter will still outdamage him with a decent weapon, and be able to bypass damage reduction alot more easily. It just saves the monk alot of money, but does exactly the same thing as the amulet of mighty fists. I have no doubt that a fighter would still do more damage than a monk with INA. My argument is based on whether a single feat should be allowed where whatever that "gap" in damage is, it is substantially reduced or even possibly overcome depending on how the Monk is built vs. the Fighter or barbarian or whatever.
snakeman830 09-23-07, 09:39 PM	The DMs point is that my monk should not have the same AC as the fighter Wait. What? *Flips through DMG* For the 20th level NPC's of the various base classes, two are tied for the highest AC. They are the Fighter (no real surprise) and the Monk. Reason why is that the Monk can benefit from a higher Dexterity (no Max Dex feature limiting his AC) as well as getting the bonus from his Wisdom (which can be speratly increased). In addition, the Monk class has inherent AC that can be boosted with an item (Monk's Belt). The Fighter is actually limited in maximum AC before Epic long before Monk is due to Max-Dex Bonus on the armor.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 09-23-07, 11:22 PM	If that rule was true, how the hell does a fighter ever get his weapons/armor enchanted by a wizard? That costs xp too. Not to mention the existence of the Tomes that raise your stats. Those cost even more xp. I'm talking specifically about getting an NPC spellcaster to cast a spell. There is a note in the table that states an NPC spellcaster will not cast the sspell if the cost is over 3k gp, and at 5 gp per point of xp, that means the 1500xp for permanencied greater magic weapon is out.
unusualsuspect 09-24-07, 01:11 AM	I'm talking specifically about getting an NPC spellcaster to cast a spell. There is a note in the table that states an NPC spellcaster will not cast the sspell if the cost is over 3k gp, and at 5 gp per point of xp, that means the 1500xp for permanencied greater magic weapon is out. Specifically: *See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available. Wonlee, I honestly don't think it's unreasonable to use Greater Magic Fang with Permanancy to get a much-cheaper Amulet of Might Fists effect. I do wonder, however, how much money you have budgetted for reapplications of Permancied Greater Magic Fist, given the 45% chance of said spell being dispelled by an equal level caster? In the course of even 4 or 5 battles, I'd imagine that chance is going to come up at least once. Reasonably, after 10 equal CR encounters, you're pretty likely to be left with a popped spell and no cash to pay for another (or, at best, enough cash to pay for another that the fighter would be able to use for something else). That doesn't even touch on the availability of that combination of spells (Requiring, it should be noted, both a 20th level Druid AND a 20th level arcane caster), especially since the PHB specifically states that spells over 3000 gp cost are not generally available. To say that it not being "generally" available doesn't mean it is NOT available would also seem questionable, to me, since that inheritly steps over the bounds of "generally acceptable builds". Perhaps, Wonlee, you could create a monk build that either puts aside enough money for an extra casting of Permanancied Greater Magic Fang, or utilizes something that is "generally available" to players?
wonlee76 09-24-07, 02:17 PM	I'm talking specifically about getting an NPC spellcaster to cast a spell. There is a note in the table that states an NPC spellcaster will not cast the sspell if the cost is over 3k gp, and at 5 gp per point of xp, that means the 1500xp for permanencied greater magic weapon is out. If that is to be applied equally, then Tomes are out of the question since the creation of Tomes requires the casting of a Miracle or Wish spell (barring of course the PC spellcaster creating the tome for you). If you apply the rule equally, then I guess I could re-evaluate the whole Permanencied Greater Magic Fang as long as we remove all tomes from these "sample" fighters/monks going at it against whatever bad guy it is. And as someone pointed out, the note is "generally unavailable." If Tomes that cost anywhere between 1 to 5 wishes (5,000 xp to 25,000 xp) are available, casting permanency on the monk's greater magic fang should be equally as available. If tomes are not available, then permanency for greater magic fang is not available.
Nephlite 09-24-07, 03:31 PM	If that is to be applied equally, then Tomes are out of the question since the creation of Tomes requires the casting of a Miracle or Wish spell (barring of course the PC spellcaster creating the tome for you). If you apply the rule equally, then I guess I could re-evaluate the whole Permanencied Greater Magic Fang as long as we remove all tomes from these "sample" fighters/monks going at it against whatever bad guy it is. And as someone pointed out, the note is "generally unavailable." If Tomes that cost anywhere between 1 to 5 wishes (5,000 xp to 25,000 xp) are available, casting permanency on the monk's greater magic fang should be equally as available. If tomes are not available, then permanency for greater magic fang is not available. Strangely, items do not have exp limitation as casting for services in PHB does.
unusualsuspect 09-24-07, 04:32 PM	Strangely, items do not have exp limitation as casting for services in PHB does. The option, then, becomes a question of finding several things: 1. A scroll of Permancy, CL 20; 2. A scroll of Greater Magic Fang, CL 20; and 3. an NPC (or PC) capable of Use Magic Device high enough to activate both scrolls without much chance of mishap. Wonlee, this is important for your build for several reasons: First, it is going to cost more money then before, and second, it doesn't mitigate the danger of losing the effect from a successful Dispel check. If you want us to take your build as a viable one, Wonlee, You're either going to need to budget for several Permanancied Magic Fangs (2 if you're feeling stingy, 3 for comfort) or for a Ring of Counterspelling (or whatever that thing is called) to deal with Targetted Dispel Magic. Since the casting of a spell over 3000 gp price is generally unavailable, you're also going to have to spend a little extra money to get those scrolls.
aeulous 09-24-07, 05:26 PM	You should feel lucky that she is only using INA, things could be a lot worse. If you would like proof of that go ahead and run these numbers for a monk Str 18 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 27 cha 8 Monk12/Kensai8 Feats: sacred vow, VoP, sanctify Ki strike, Holy Ki strike, Touch of golden ice, weapon focus(Unarmed), improved crit(unarmed), intuitive attack Kensai weapon of choice fists Kensai improvements: collision(2) pyschokinetic busrt(2) frost(1) Shock(1) +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 fists 2d6+14+1d6 cold+1d6 electric+1d4 pyschcokinetic+2d6 holy(if evil) 19-20X2 +1d6 pyschokinetic on crit plus the golden ice ravage on every hit AC 40 Just so you know this was also being easy on you because this guy would also have a ton more feats, and normally i would go speed disrupting and pychokinetic busrt which would give him another attack at full base.
wonlee76 09-24-07, 05:42 PM	Strangely, items do not have exp limitation as casting for services in PHB does. But to create an item, the casting of certain spells is one of those things that the NPC is required to do. Lets work with logic at least: NPC A refuses to cast Permanency because the xp cost when converted to GP is in excess of 3,000 gold. Same NPC though will not refuse the PC's fighter request for a Tome of Strength +5 which will not only cost the usual xp expense related to the item, but an additional 25,000 xp (ie. Value of 125,000 gp) due to the five wishes that has to be casted as part of the creation of the tome.
PhaedrusXY 09-24-07, 06:07 PM	Lets work with logic at least:Let's not. Let's use the rules instead, since that is what we're basically discussing. Also, I don't know why this thread has been entirely derailed by this discussion. It doesn't even matter. So what if the monk gets his +5 bonus a bit more cheaply? He still isn't outdamaging the fighter with a decent sword, he isn't beating most damage reductions, and he can't hit incorpreal creatures at all... What happened to the OP, anyway?
FlikViktor 09-25-07, 04:53 PM	Let's not. Let's use the rules instead, since that is what we're basically discussing. Also, I don't know why this thread has been entirely derailed by this discussion. It doesn't even matter. So what if the monk gets his +5 bonus a bit more cheaply? He still isn't outdamaging the fighter with a decent sword, he isn't beating most damage reductions, and he can't hit incorpreal creatures at all... What happened to the OP, anyway? Incoporeal creatures exist on the Ethreal Plane, and at 19th level a monk has the ability to go Ethreal 1/round per monk level. So a monk could in fact hit Incoporeal with ease and without a 50% miss chance. Oh yes, and to add on for those who want to compare a Fighter against a Monk against a Balor. The Planar Handbook allows a monk to choose between Cold Iron or Adamantine for DR purposes. And if your playing a good campaign (which most people do) Sanctify Ki Strike grants you Good for overcoming DR. There are a number of feats out there to make your Unarmed Strike count as stuff to overcome DR.
rironin 09-25-07, 05:15 PM	Incoporeal creatures exist on the Ethreal Plane, and at 19th level a monk has the ability to go Ethreal 1/round per monk level. So a monk could in fact hit Incoporeal with ease and without a 50% miss chance.Not true.What’s the difference between ethereal and incorporeal? Incorporeal has a very specific definition in D&D. An incorporeal creature is a creature present on the Material Plane, but insubstantial and incapable of being touched by nonmagical matter or energy.You may be thinking of a ghost, which exists on the Ethereal Plane and remains there even when manifesting as an incorporeal creature on the Material plane. All other incorporeal creatures (unless it says otherwsie) exist solely on the Material plane as incorporeal creatures. Being on the Ethereal Plane would not allow the monk to hit them. Furthermore,Does the monk’s ki strike (magic) only allow her to overcome damage reduction or does it make her natural attacks count as magic weapons for all effects (such as affecting incorporeal opponents)? The Player’s Handbook states that ki strike affects the monk’s unarmed strikes “for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction,” but says nothing about any other effects. Thus, the monk’s unarmed attacks aren’t considered magic weapons for any other purpose, including affecting incorporeal foes. (I know that your post didn't contradict that second part, but I just noticed it when looking through the FAQ and found it interesting- I hadn't realized that that distinction was there myself.)
PhaedrusXY 09-25-07, 06:25 PM	The Planar Handbook allows a monk to choose between Cold Iron or Adamantine for DR purposes.The Planar Handbook isn't core. And even if it is allowed, then the monk can't beat DR X/Adamatine, so it is kind of a moot point. The fighter can carry around a "golf bag" if he feels like it, but in reality, he probably won't need more than a handful of weapons, thanks to Silversheen. Technically, the monk could probably put that on his hands, though.
FlikViktor 09-25-07, 07:25 PM	Alternate Class Features/Feats/Magic Items to Overcome DR for Monks Ki Strike Magic - Magic Ki Strike Lawful - Lawful Ki Strike Adamantine - Adamantine Ki Strike Cold Iron - Cold Iron (in replace of Adamantine)(Planar Handbook) Sanctify Ki Strike - Good Sanctify Martial Strike - Good Sanctify Natural Attack - Good Hellbound Knight - Lawful & Evil (Champions of Ruin) Demonsworn Knight - Chaotic & Evil (Champions of Ruin) Tormented Knight - Evil (Champions of Ruin) Ring of Adamantine Touch - Adamantine Gaunlets of Weaponry Arcane - Silver (says any weapon held, so DMs call) Others. Vile Ki Strike - basically the exact opposite of Sanctify Ki Strike, however there was never an update for the BoVD that actually involved content (there was an addition for devils) So even though it would make sense that taking this would make your Unarmed Strike count as Evil, wizards has responsed DMs decision. Vile Martial Strike - See Vile Ki Strike Vile Natural Attack - See Vile Ki Strike Now granted there are alot of different combination there and alot of DR you can overcome without wielding a weapon, but monks can in fact wield weapons too let us not forget. And monks can use Flurry of Blows with there Monk Special weapons. They can also interchange between Unarmed Strikes and Monks special weapons as desired. Add Ki Focus and Transmuting on the weapon and you have a pretty darn good monks weapon.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-07, 12:27 PM	Now granted there are alot of different combination there and alot of DR you can overcome without wielding a weapon, but monks can in fact wield weapons too let us not forget. And monks can use Flurry of Blows with there Monk Special weapons. They can also interchange between Unarmed Strikes and Monks special weapons as desired. Add Ki Focus and Transmuting on the weapon and you have a pretty darn good monks weapon.Sure, but they're not benefiting from that INA feat then. So it isn't an ideal option.
wonlee76 09-26-07, 02:09 PM	Sure, but they're not benefiting from that INA feat then. So it isn't an ideal option. There is an item in MIC that does gain the benefit of unarmed strike damage. I forget if its a Kama or some other monk weapon. More options, more complicated the impact of INA becomes...
PhaedrusXY 09-26-07, 04:21 PM	There is an item in MIC that does gain the benefit of unarmed strike damage. I forget if its a Kama or some other monk weapon. More options, more complicated the impact of INA becomes...That's true, but everyone else gets more powerful as you add splat books, also. If your party "fighter" is actually a Frenzied Berzerker with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a good Will save, INA on the monk becomes a non-issue.
Nephlite 09-26-07, 08:19 PM	That's true, but everyone else gets more powerful as you add splat books, also. If your party "fighter" is actually a Frenzied Berzerker with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a good Will save, INA on the monk becomes a non-issue. Getting rid of the FB Fighter is?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-26-07, 08:21 PM	That's true, but everyone else gets more powerful as you add splat books, also. If your party "fighter" is actually a Frenzied Berzerker with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a good Will save, INA on the monk becomes a non-issue. Hell, if the party Fighter just takes Melee Weapon Mastery, INA is a non-issue.
wonlee76 09-27-07, 12:00 AM	Hell, if the party Fighter just takes Melee Weapon Mastery, INA is a non-issue. And this is why I think its somewhat silly to try to compare one class build vs. another considering magical items, prestige classes, class options and what have you will have some impact in trying to compare one class to another in damage potential. The simpler comparison would be whether INA in and of itself when used by a monk is "too good" for the "costs" (ie. Pre-reqs) then other feats, whether the "other" feats are from splatbooks or not. INA vs. MWM: MWM is about equal in power if you follow the +1 to hit = +2 to damage formula (I didn't make that up, I read it somewhere and maybe its a poor presumption. I'm presuming someone came to that conclusion due to the power attack conversion on Two handed weapons). So INA: +3.5 to +7 average damage boost. MWM: flat +6 boost to damage. INA: BAB +4 Pre-req MWM: Weapon Spec + Weapon Spec + 8 BAB pre-req. MWM is approximately equal in benefit to INA but has 2 feats as a pre-req and a higher BAB pre-req.