Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valtherin 09-05-07, 11:23 AM	My problem is thusly- our group is starting out at level 5 and we've adventured in the past and are regrouping etc etc. My problem is we'll be traveling and will encounter what are clearly a few harpies. Our DM seems to think that since we've never fought one before that we have no idea at all what it is. He's done the same thing with trolls and ogres so far in the game. I just don't think it would be like that. If for no other reason than hearing other people's stories i'd be able to tell hey thats a troll or thats an ogre. I've never actually since a panda bear in real life before but I know i'd be able to tell when I did. I feel like it makes us players look ridiculously stupid. It literally creates the dilemma of making up a name for them i.e. Hey remember those 2 winged hag beasts (harpies) we fought the other day? Our DM seems to believe that it would be meta-gaming to be like hey those are harpies. Maybe this correct however. I'd love to hear some feedback on the issue.
Frugal 09-05-07, 11:41 AM	My problem is thusly- our group is starting out at level 5 and we've adventured in the past and are regrouping etc etc. My problem is we'll be traveling and will encounter what are clearly a few harpies. Our DM seems to think that since we've never fought one before that we have no idea at all what it is. He's done the same thing with trolls and ogres so far in the game. I just don't think it would be like that. If for no other reason than hearing other people's stories i'd be able to tell hey thats a troll or thats an ogre. I've never actually since a panda bear in real life before but I know i'd be able to tell when I did. I feel like it makes us players look ridiculously stupid. It literally creates the dilemma of making up a name for them i.e. Hey remember those 2 winged hag beasts (harpies) we fought the other day? Our DM seems to believe that it would be meta-gaming to be like hey those are harpies. Maybe this correct however. I'd love to hear some feedback on the issue. There are rules for using knowledge checks to identify things like this. The thing that you're forgetting is that you're dealing with a pseudo-medieval society (usually) and the types of stories and information you'd get from others is far less than what you get in modern day. Even look at something like Moby Dick and how much text is spent describing the whale, that's because it was written in a time before there was television and the internet, etc, where it would be a safe bet that even if you've never seen one in real life you have an idea of what a whale looks like. Now if your characters have the appropriate knowledge skills and the DM's denying you the checks, that's different because ranks in those skills does reflect that kind of knowledge. If you don't though, well then too bad, your character doesn't know that stuff and no amount of "well, we adventured before and should know" will convince me otherwise, since you don't have the ranks in the appropriate skill, just as you can't claim, "but I've adventured before and should know how to tie up a prisoner" without having ranks in use rope. Edit: Knowledge (nature) is what would cover Harpies (monstrous humanoids), ogres and trolls (both giants), see D20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) for more info.
Kouk 09-05-07, 11:51 AM	Many creatures look similar to each other. If he flat out tells you the name of the creature without a successful knowledge check on the part of one of the party members, that may very well lead to subconscious metagame behavior. Also, in the real world we have mass media and mass education (in many countries at least). In most D&D worlds, there is no television or things like National Geographic magazine, and no public schooling. Most worlds tend to be similar to medieval Europe. You may very well know about things from countries halfway around the world, but would most people in the middle ages have known what a panda was? At best they may have thought it was some kind of strange bear, and at worst a demon creature. How common a creature is is also dependent on the campaign setting and the DMs view of it. Usually you would expect Trolls to at least have some kind of mythology surrounding them, enough to make their existence common knowledge if not their exact capabilities, but maybe Trolls are actually very rare in that world and people just don't know about them. For "common" creatures I would recommend a house rule lowering the DC to recognize them, perhaps just a DC 10 Knowledge check (which means it is common knowledge and can potentially be made with just an Intelligence check). It will take some restraint on the part of the players to not metagame their strategies though. It is a bit of a problem with the premise of "We are fairly seasoned adventurers who are just getting back together at level 5" because it is really unknown what you may or may not have done in the past. Perhaps you all were from another plane of existence and recently came to this world and so can't know what the creatures are - there is no telling. I would recommend coming up with some kind of backstory for the party, with the other players and the DM, something like making up some major past adventures. This will also determine whether the group has any friends or reputation, and may let you have "encountered" certain monsters before. You should definitely discuss your concerns with the DM though, but if he is only going to use the core Monster Manual, chances are you will personally recognize most monsters even if your character shouldn't. The best way to learn about monsters is to have a high relevant Knowledge skill modifier.
key 09-05-07, 11:56 AM	If you think it's pretty clear that your character would have encountered them before, and you're feeling ridiculously stupid, then call your DM's bluff. Touch your clothes and ask what they are. Ask people around you who they are, where you're at, what your name is. Explain that your stomach is growling and that your character is confused. If you finally figure out food, be surprised when you have to go #2...maybe you dump in the middle of camp and start dancing around in celebration, proud of your creation.
Sunblast 09-05-07, 12:17 PM	For "common" creatures I would recommend a house rule lowering the DC to recognize them, perhaps just a DC 10 Knowledge check (which means it is common knowledge and can potentially be made with just an Intelligence check). It will take some restraint on the part of the players to not metagame their strategies though. That's pretty much what we have going on in our game. I mean, some are going to be more exotic and therefore less heard of (How many people are going to know a hooked horror when they see one, DC 10 Int check or not?), but for the majority of creatures we can do a DC 10 Int check to simply get the name. It gets around the problem you were just describing, though you may only get a nickname (We were told that a bulette was called a land shark, which is totally accurate). Anything further, like resistances and special abilities (though you could probably get away with knowing that a fire elemental isn't too afraid of fire), and you'll need ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill. Maybe you could get him to do something like that? If you think it's pretty clear that your character would have encountered them before, and you're feeling ridiculously stupid, then call your DM's bluff. Touch your clothes and ask what they are. Ask people around you who they are, where you're at, what your name is. Explain that your stomach is growling and that your character is confused. If you finally figure out food, be surprised when you have to go #2...maybe you dump in the middle of camp and start dancing around in celebration, proud of your creation. I seriously doubt that's going to help the situation any. However, I'd probably do something along those lines myself. :ayyyy!: Maybe you fail to recognize elves, dwarves, etc. because you don't have any ranks in a knowledge skill? I mean, really, which knowledge skill would help you identify humans?
Frugal 09-05-07, 01:43 PM	If you think it's pretty clear that your character would have encountered them before, and you're feeling ridiculously stupid, then call your DM's bluff. Touch your clothes and ask what they are. Ask people around you who they are, where you're at, what your name is. Explain that your stomach is growling and that your character is confused. If you finally figure out food, be surprised when you have to go #2...maybe you dump in the middle of camp and start dancing around in celebration, proud of your creation. Except one thing has rules mechanics (knowing about monsters) while basic functioning as a human being (or whatever race you chose) does not. Yes, certain stuff in the game is assumed to be "common sense", knowing about monsters is not one of them. And going by stories doesn't help you much either. A great example of this is in the Wheel of Time, most people think that Trollocs don't really exist and/or frequently mistake Ogier for Trollocs (which they also usually think were just a myth too). Depending on the DM's world, the common people could very well have only heard vague stories about these types of creatures and possibly not even believe they're real. People who have actually seen these types of beasts could be few and far between. But again, it also comes down to having ranks in the proper knowledge skill if you're playing by the RAW. But right now it sounds like you just want to metagame and hear "troll" and instantly whip out the fire and acid, that's the kind of thing that's supposed to require a knowledge check to know. If you want to have your character know about these types of things then your best bet is to talk to him and ask what you skill(s) you need to put ranks in to actually know these types of things.
Salla 09-05-07, 01:51 PM	You may know a panda when you see one, but that's because you've watched TV, seen one on the internet (well, a picture of one on the internet, though I'd pay good money to see a panda actually using the internet ... "www.bamboo.com ... yummy."), or been to the zoo. Your character did none of that. You want to know about monsters, take the Knowledge skills. If a monster is particularly common (a position typically held by your goblins and hobgoblins, for example), you can probably file under the DC 10 untrained check to get a basic something.
Frugal 09-05-07, 01:58 PM	You want to know about monsters, take the Knowledge skills. If a monster is particularly common (a position typically held by your goblins and hobgoblins, for example), you can probably file under the DC 10 untrained check to get a basic something. I'd point out that it's still more likely to be that if you see a goblinoid you know it's "some kind of goblin", not "oh look, a bugbear", although again it would depend on how common they are.
Valtherin 09-05-07, 04:40 PM	thanks for the input guys. To clarify, I am a cloistered cleric, with ranks in knowledge (arcana, planes, religion, nature, history). So my character does have a decent knowledge the of the lay of the land.
Ecalsneerg 09-05-07, 05:02 PM	thanks for the input guys. To clarify, I am a cloistered cleric, with ranks in knowledge (arcana, planes, religion, nature, history). So my character does have a decent knowledge the of the lay of the land. So... dragons, outsiders, elementals, undead, animals, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, magical beasts... This narrows down the list of monsters you have little hope of recognising somewhat...
FponkDamn 09-05-07, 06:27 PM	A druid at first level, even with max ranks in Knowledge: Nature, has a decent chance of not knowing what a bear is. "By Obad-Hai's mossy beard! What is that great brown beast with jaws like a pit! Flee!" I think there should almost be a competence bonus to Knowledge checks based on local activity. Like, I could imagine said Druid having no idea what a bear was if she lived in the desert - like an above poster said, there is no mass media. You know what's around you. If you live in a town near to a Troll tribe, with regular attacks and even some social interation, then every inhabitant should have enough of a competence bonus (say, +8 or so) to Knowledge: Nature checks to identify Trolls. Of course, even with that, the DC is still above 10, so commoners can't make the check no matter how much of a bonus they have unless they have ranks in it - but that might be realistic as well. In such a town, the common folk probably talk to each other and educate their young about the Troll threat on a regular basis, resulting in at least one rank in Knowledge: Nature being had by everyone in town. That, coupled with the competence bonus for being nearby, means that people from that town can, in fact, identify Trolls on sight. But that's what it would take. Those sorts of monsters just aren't that common to where anyone would know what they were. Personally, I love it when my DM describes his monsters - he always does it in such a way that I have no idea what they actually are. If I make the Knowledge check, he tells me, but otherwise I'm just fighting something scary. I had a different DM once who always just said "You see two Ogre-magi" and I always wished he didn't. Eventually I just put decent ranks in every Knowledge skill until my character would actually know every monster he was fighting, to compensate. One last note: making up in-game nicknames for monsters is actually awesome and fun, in my opinion. In the game with the descriptive DM, we came upon some crazy six-limbed giant primate along a stretch of beach in the jungle we were in. It might have actually been a Girallon, but as far as we're concerned, that monster is forever the dreaded "Beach Ape." Shambling mound = the "Garglefracture" (after the very humorous sound the DM described it making as it approached). Kobolds were known as "Crack Shots" after the first one we ever encountered scored a crit on EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of our party with his crossbow. Later Kobolds were never so threatening, but we always were weary of the little Crack Shots anyway... It's sort of like the Illithid/Mind Flayer thing. They probably don't call themselves Mind Flayers (as Illithid is the actual name of their race). Mind Flayer is probably what some Bard made up for them after the first time he saw them in action. So make up those nicknames! It'll probably make the game more fun in the long run. - Johnny
Jexil 09-05-07, 06:36 PM	As far as characters not knowing the proper names for monsters and having to make up their own names, that can actually be kind of fun. In one recent adventure, our party encountered a giant slug-like creature with the power to either repel or attract metal objects at will. One character referred to it as a "polarity slug." We later found out that the creature is actually known as a metal master, but we decided we liked polarity slug much better. Even now that we know the correct name, we still talk about the epic battle with the polarity slug.
Frugal 09-05-07, 09:33 PM	thanks for the input guys. To clarify, I am a cloistered cleric, with ranks in knowledge (arcana, planes, religion, nature, history). So my character does have a decent knowledge the of the lay of the land. Okay, well that makes some sense then, I'd suggest showing your DM the section of the book that shows how you can use knowledge checks to do what you want. Maybe it's the way you're approaching it, like rather than saying, "so what's the monster?" say, "does my character know what the monster is? I want to make a knowledge check" (or similar), establish that you're trying to represent the character's knowledge and not metagame. If showing the section doesn't work then smack your DM with the spine of your PHB and show him again, repeat as necessary. Edit: by my count you've got constructs, dragons, magical beasts (arcana), outsiders, elementals (planes), undead (religion), animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin (nature) covered. So yeah, not much you don't know.
CCS 09-06-07, 12:55 AM	Maybe your DMs method is ok, maybe not. Likely depends alot upon what exactly you're encountering. But I think he should take into account that you ARE experienced adventurers. Ask him for a complete list of all the monsters you've encountered, killed, or learned of while advancing to 5th lev.
DanteApollyon 09-06-07, 12:21 PM	which is funny considering most native american tribes and most tribes for that matter have names for all the creatures around them and you could easily learn whats what no matter where you are, its called asking.
Frugal 09-06-07, 12:40 PM	which is funny considering most native american tribes and most tribes for that matter have names for all the creatures around them and you could easily learn whats what no matter where you are, its called asking. Again though, it's a matter of deciding what's common and not in the world. If I, as a DM, decide that orcs and goblins are common threats then I'm not going to expect a knowledge roll from the players, I'll tell them it's an orc. Similarly, I might even say that it's a troll, some stuff is easily identified if people would be familiar with them. But, what I might do is require a knowledge roll from the player if as soon as I say, "it's a troll" they start breaking out the fire and acid, because identifying is one thing, knowing particular weaknesses and tactics to use against them is something different. To use your native american example, well yes any kid probably could identify a deer, that doesn't mean that they know how to properly hunt one with a bow, that requires training (ie, putting ranks into the appropriate skills, having levels in a class that is good with ranged weapons, etc).
Fuzzy_Chompers 09-06-07, 12:41 PM	If you've got ranks in knowledge skills, then you're definitely entitled to Knowledge checks to see if your (rather knowledgeable) PC knows about them. You may wish to point out the section to and ask your DM if you can make a Knowledge check the next time you encounter an unknown creature.
Frugal 09-06-07, 01:08 PM	If you've got ranks in knowledge skills, then you're definitely entitled to Knowledge checks to see if your (rather knowledgeable) PC knows about them. You may wish to point out the section to and ask your DM if you can make a Knowledge check the next time you encounter an unknown creature. Yep, it's one thing to metagame and hit vulnerabilities and such because you recognised the description or the DM told you the name, it's another thing to give your character the knowledge he'd need (through ranks in skills) to actually know these sorts of things in-game and use the proper mechanic to determine if he does. I suspect the DM is worried about metagaming but he doesn't seem to be aware of the entirely legitimate avenue that you're taking to get there.
Colmarr 09-06-07, 10:46 PM	In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. The knowledge skill is a little wonky as written in that it makes using knowledge against some monsters more difficult that in should be. An ancient dragon is pretty iconic and would likely occupy a place of myth - everyone's going to recognize it if they see it. The later "Knowledge" tables that WotC has created have gone some way to fixing this problem. However, generally speaking, a Knowledge check should only be required the first time you encounter a monster. If you succeed, you identify the monster from stories you have heard. If not, you're too confused/panicked/raging to think of what someone told you the week before. Once you've met something once and someone has told you what it was, you shouldn't have to roll to identify it again the next time you meet one. You can try if you want (hoping to get a higher result and learn some useful info), but in that case you're not checking to recognise the monster. You're checking for something else.
Shadowhowler 09-07-07, 03:21 AM	I had a problem similar to this, but in reverse. It's 1/2 the reason I ended up quiting a recent game. My DM was a fan of the 'In a world with Bards and people telling each other stories, you would know about this and that...' and got ****** at me when I told him I didn't think my character understood the inner workings of the church and Paladins, and how Divine magic worked. My character was a Warlock/Rogue. I had knowledge skills in Knowledge local, Knowledge Arcana, thats about IT. He spent his life on the street, and as a slave to a twisted necromancer. He was not an overly devout whorshiper, and did not have any knowledge religion, or History, or anything like that. So I insisted his knowledge of Paladins and Divine magic was limited at best. I figured he knew Paladins were Warriors who had dedicated themselves to their god... and that their god, in thanks, granted them some mesure of Divin power to use in their service. thats IT. No details or specifics... only generalities. He compared this asseration to ME (in real life) saying I didn't know what fire was, or gravity... ect. Annoyed the hell out of me. To me, he basicly WANTED his players to meta-game all kinds of info. Wanted them to know everything we know as players from having read the books... I just feel thats WRONG. My character should know what he has experinced, both in play and by his background... and I should reflect those knowledges with my skill points, by putting them in the aproprate knowledge skills. :banghead: It was so annoying. Anyway... to stop ranting... I agree with everything Frugal said, to the last letter. :)
jasper 09-07-07, 04:45 PM	YES we all know ancient dragons breath fire, and like the taste of maidens. But they can be destroy by holy symbols of a righteous man. Sorry I don't buy the iconic arguements on most critters.
Tedronai 09-07-07, 07:55 PM	Try comparing that to the 'Legendary' Tarrasque. Short of epic levels, no one can even HOPE of identifying it based on a knowledge check, let alone know anything about it, and yet it has supposedly been around for many centuries at least, and causes untold trouble every few decades. Still though, somehow no one in that time has learned anything about the thing short of what could be determined by a casual glance anyway. The fact that it heals any wounds dealt to it almost immediately? Or that spells have a tendency to reflect off of it? Even that it tends to sleep for long periods between activity cycles is a fact unavailable to anyone not learning it in-game (and thus only at the whims of the DM)