Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gluestick 03-14-07, 03:45 PM	He had no problem with a particular class, the Dread Necromancer, or with me playing it. Well, I discovered a combo that I could use with it. And the rest of our group thought that it would be fun, so we all decided to play Dread Necro. I wanted to experiment with a build, but everyone else was going to go with a standard build. Now, for some reason , he has decided to inexplicably go Core and ban it. His reasons seem silly: 1)No access to it. This is silly, because not only do I have the book and bring it weekly, I will gladly scan the pages for him. 2) Doesn't know how it works. A. I have the book, you can read it. B. It's basically a Summon spec Sorceror. 3.)It's overpowered A. This reasoning is silly. It is a balanced class, but in the hands of a good gamer, or group of them, any class can seem "overpowered". This seems especially silly since the DM is the biggest powergamer I know of. The thing is, I wouldn't mind if it had been like that in the beginning, or if any of the other players had agreed to it, but he just said it recently and I have the feeling that none of the other players like being quite as limited. He's a good friend of mine, but I think he is being very unfair restricting us to Core out of the blue like this, especially since he likes using non-core in all of my campaigns, and he was just fine with the class last week when I got the book. I am jus tstarting to feel like this is going to be a Player v. DM type of game, with me trying to figure out effective methods of play before they get nerfed.
Stumm_Dolch 03-14-07, 04:21 PM	Obey his rules or don't play his game. This isn't usually the first response on the Player thread, but in this case it's the correct one. I frequently ban books/material that I don't have access to. NOT because I can't get access to it, but DMing already requires so much prep work that I don't want to learn new stuff when I'm trying to design encounters and plot lines. Especially if there's little time between sessions. If it's a once/month thing then I'll let my players play most things as long as I have access to the material somehow short of taking a notepad to the bookstore.((Libraries to stock D&D Reference Materials IMO)) Psionics is the perfect example. Alot of people and DMs think they are overpowered. Once you sit down and learn their system you see they aren't any more exploitable than any other class. BUT I don't allow them in my games simply because I don't like the flavor and I don't want to learn a new series of abilities my players would be using frequently. It's also likely that when your whole group decided to play Dread Necromancers it became a different game than the one he's been envisioning and doesn't want to abandon his plans/plot.
Drodain 03-14-07, 04:32 PM	Obey his rules or don't play his game. This isn't usually the first response on the Player thread, but in this case it's the correct one. I frequently ban books/material that I don't have access to. NOT because I can't get access to it, but DMing already requires so much prep work that I don't want to learn new stuff when I'm trying to design encounters and plot lines. Especially if there's little time between sessions. If it's a once/month thing then I'll let my players play most things as long as I have access to the material somehow short of taking a notepad to the bookstore.((Libraries to stock D&D Reference Materials IMO)) Psionics is the perfect example. Alot of people and DMs think they are overpowered. Once you sit down and learn their system you see they aren't any more exploitable than any other class. BUT I don't allow them in my games simply because I don't like the flavor and I don't want to learn a new series of abilities my players would be using frequently. QFT. Also I still can't figure out why you all want to be a Dread Necromancer. I I like when people enjoy my builds but it is annoying as a DM to have people all play the same thing or try to play the same thing. He may just think you're not taking it seriously. But just to reiterate the point. Respect his rules, although he should have told you at the beginning, as far as I can tell he can tell you new things up until the game begins.
Gluestick 03-14-07, 04:42 PM	It just seems as if he isn't holding himself to the standards that he expects us to follow. And it's not the same build. All of us like the idea of summoning and controlling undead. We have just never had the book before last week. I know that the DM's rules should be respected, but I find it hard to respect something which I am given little reason for, other than "I don't have it/don't know it." Those basically boil down to "I don't want to learn about classes. Especially when it is very easy to get access to it. Call me crazy, but it is eevryone's game. When I ran our campaigns, I made sure that I knew what the classes did, because it is just good sense. And beyond that, Dread Necros aren't on the same level as Psionics, because Psionics require a completely different equipment, stat, and ocmbat system. Dread Necroes are like an alternate Sorceror. Spells per-day, spells known, yada-yada-yada. Not much to it, other than the class abilities, but that's really pretty simple to learn. And as stated, I would let him borrow my book, or print him copies of the pages. It just seems silly that these rules are comign up for no apparent reason.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 05:40 PM	While I may sympathize with the OPs need for a reason other than "I don't know that class" for an excuse as to why the DM wouldn't allow it, I also can sympathize with many DMs out there that feel the need to limit what is available in their game. I put hours every week into my campaign researching monsters, reading adventures, talking to my players and updating campaign info and I still do not have time to read every single splat book that hits the shelf. To me it's not about the availability of the source book because the gods know that if I don't have it then one of my players do. It's about a few things. Mainly, have I read it (which I do agree with the OP that this is simple), does it fit into the campaign flavor and storyline, are there any potential loopholes that I can foresee being exploited by the players, will this weaken the party as a whole (not all prestige classes are good in parties) and will the other players work well with the class (having a cleric of Pelor and a Dread Necromancer in the same party is a disaster, I don't care how you role play it). It is the DMs right to limit what is available but in doing so they should also point out to the party what IS available so that the party can appropriately plan their group and level advancement. A trend I have noticed since 3.0/ 3.5 has arrived on the scene is the players believing that it is their right to be able to play any class from any book that is in print and that if a DM refuses to allow it because they don't want in their campaign then they are a horrible DM with no intellect or vision. Pffft. Whatever. Show me anywhere on Wizards site or in any of their books that if they printed it then it is 100% part of the game and should be allowed in the campaign. You won't find it because it doesn't exist. Matter of fact, I can point out exactly where Wizards has stated the exact opposite in their official core books that, as far as prestige classes are concerned, they should be tightly limited by the DM. Page 176 DMG 3.5, first print, third paragraph: "Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign.... They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes are the ones you tailor make yourself." Look, you can live and play your games however you want because that is part of what D&D is about. Whatever is fun for both the party AND the DM is what should be played at the table. Since the game hasn't started yet and your DM has apparently claimed that it's now going to be core only, perhaps you and your fellow players should have a sit down with your DM and tell them what you are looking for in a game and hopefully your DM will listen and try to accommodate you all. If not, someone else run a game.
Gluestick 03-14-07, 06:14 PM	One of the bigger problems is that he will just make these decisions without discussing it with anyone. I just wish to have some input in the game I'm going to play. It's not beyond him to change rules and such just because it is convenient, and without anybody agreeing.
TRCEttin 03-14-07, 06:18 PM	1)No access to it. 2) Doesn't know how it works. 3.)It's overpowered How does he know?
The_Basilisk 03-14-07, 06:21 PM	I agree that a DM has all the right in the world to allow/disallow any class or prestige class. I will also point out that Dread Necromancer is a 1-20 class, not a PrC. However, the DM in question should not have OK'd the class, then later banning it when the players had thier hearts set on making thier characters. Also, he should not make excuses for doing so, he should just be honest and say he doesn't like them in his game. But, what the DM says goes, so if you're a player, suck it up, accept it, and come up with a new character. If you're really set on creating and controlling undead, be a cleric or a specialist wizard. I really think clerics make way better undead controllers anyways. They have more ways of healing thier undead, and they can bolster them against good clerics, and rebuke random undead they find.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 06:22 PM	How does he know? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Exactly!! Good point! That's what I'm getting at really. It's ok for a DM to ban something if he can give good reasons. This DM, however, did not. If I say that a class is too powerful I will at least explain IMO to the player why I believe it is. That way they at least know where I am coming from in my reasoning.
Gluestick 03-14-07, 06:23 PM	He thinks it is, because my friends and I have been excitedly discussing it, and the possibilities it holds.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 06:23 PM	I agree that a DM has all the right in the world to allow/disallow any class or prestige class. I will also point out that Dread Necromancer is a 1-20 class, not a PrC. Too true, too true. The same should apply to any class though, regardless of prestige or not. At least that's my 2coppers.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 06:26 PM	He thinks it is, because my friends and I have been excitedly discussing it, and the possibilities it holds. Man, I get excited about playing a cleric at times (on the rare occasion I get to play instead of DM). So what? Players getting excited about playing a class is hardly a reason to claim it's overpowered. However, if he has a legit reason for clerics not exsisting (ala War of the Lance style Dragonlance) then I guess I'll play something else.
Gluestick 03-14-07, 06:32 PM	That is another thing. Most of the time I DM, so it is an especially large letdown, since this si the rare chance I get to play.
Krusk 03-14-07, 10:06 PM	If you guys hadnt rolled up characters or started an adventure, then the Dm did give you guys fair warning that he does not want this class in his game. Seems to me you should get over it really. Sure his reasons are awful, but theres really nothing you can do about it. Aside from not playing, which im assuming is not the route you want to take. Instead try playing specialist necromancer wizard, necromancy focused cleric, palidin into blackgaurd, and of course a rogue who isnt opposed to undead. now you guys have the same theme, but you dont have everyone playing the same class. You have all your bases covered and it is entirly core.
johnkretzer 03-14-07, 11:33 PM	It just seems as if he isn't holding himself to the standards that he expects us to follow. And it's not the same build. All of us like the idea of summoning and controlling undead. We have just never had the book before last week. I know that the DM's rules should be respected, but I find it hard to respect something which I am given little reason for, other than "I don't have it/don't know it." Those basically boil down to "I don't want to learn about classes. Especially when it is very easy to get access to it. Call me crazy, but it is eevryone's game. When I ran our campaigns, I made sure that I knew what the classes did, because it is just good sense. And beyond that, Dread Necros aren't on the same level as Psionics, because Psionics require a completely different equipment, stat, and ocmbat system. Dread Necroes are like an alternate Sorceror. Spells per-day, spells known, yada-yada-yada. Not much to it, other than the class abilities, but that's really pretty simple to learn. And as stated, I would let him borrow my book, or print him copies of the pages. It just seems silly that these rules are comign up for no apparent reason. You should just roll with it. I agree I like more of a reason or atleast consistent reasons. But if he is a first time DM you should be patient with him. Also just because he will play anything under the sun in other people's games doesn't he has to. I mean I know it is unfair and all but talk to him and let him know. Sidenote: Psionic does NOT require different eqipment(they pretty much work by the same rules as magic items), stats( um if you mean PPs well there aren't really any different then spell slots...just more flexable, if you didn't then what are you talking about), combat system(um...it still uses D&D combat rules as in saves, to hits and damage or effect). Just for your infomation.
Gluestick 03-14-07, 11:49 PM	Ah, well I have never used Psionics, so I am lost regarding it. The thing is, he has DMed for us before, and tends to show a bit of a disregard for the rules. I think that the best course of action is to just choose not to play, rather than risk my friendship over something like D&D. I honestly think that I would be too annoyed to resist raping and killing his NPCs if I played. You should just roll with it. I agree I like more of a reason or atleast consistent reasons. But if he is a first time DM you should be patient with him. Also just because he will play anything under the sun in other people's games doesn't he has to. I mean I know it is unfair and all but talk to him and let him know. The thing is, I tried this, and when I reminded him how he played non-core classes and used non-core feats in every campaign so far, he just said "My campaign" and left it at that.
TRCEttin 03-15-07, 12:07 AM	I would find another DM, then. Perhaps someone else in your group would like to? Try to avoid destroying his game, though.
Vaelan 03-15-07, 02:35 AM	One of my more recent groups started off this way. A couple of friends of mine started playing and invited me to play with them. We've played games together before and they know that I tend to play to win and that I can analyze and manipulate systems. As such, our DM was a bit wary of giving me lattitude to create a character, thinking that I would break his game in half by playing to win. I simply explained that I don't see mechanical effectiveness as victory and that I share his concerns about characters that are overly effective on a mechanical level. He acted like a friend and trusted me. I was allowed lattitude in creating characters. I acted like a friend and didn't abuse that trust. Ask him to let you try it out and tell him that you're more than willing to stop if it ends up being too much.
High Octane 03-15-07, 02:59 AM	1)No access to it. This is silly, because not only do I have the book and bring it weekly, I will gladly scan the pages for him. 2) Doesn't know how it works. A. I have the book, you can read it. B. It's basically a Summon spec Sorceror. 3.)It's overpowered A. This reasoning is silly. It is a balanced class, but in the hands of a good gamer, or group of them, any class can seem "overpowered". This seems especially silly since the DM is the biggest powergamer I know of. I know this may sound immature but damn it this is what needs to be said: Quit whining you baby. The first 2 are good reasons to ban the class and the last one is subjective but still a DMs perrogative (sic). So you dont get to play the exact build you wanted, boo hoo. Tuck it away and play something else for a while and ask him if you can bring the character in after he reviews the book for a while. Now the reason he went core only is probably because he realized hes not as familiar with the game and not set to handle all the builds. With some splatbooks things can get scary. Want to know something scary? Complete Adventurer + Expanded Psionics Handbook + the Splitting enchantment for the bow (not sure where its from) + Complete Scoundrel. This level 14 character, who was a scout/ranger multiclass. Due to Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Greater Manyshot (Which allows precision based damage on EACH shot), And the Splitting enchantment, This character would shoot 3 arrows WHICH SPLIT INTO 6 due to the splitting enchantment, which all received skirmish damage equal to a 14th llevel scout PLUS 2d6. Thats 6d6 on each arrow. Thats a grand total of, if each arrow hit, 36d6 damage PLUS 6d8 PLUS the bows bonus damage plus a little extra from a couple of buffs which makes 36d6 + 6d8 + around 5. She did enough damage in 3 rounds to kill an OLD Blue Dragon. Using 9 non-magical arrows. For the record, thats a CR 18. Thats why people are a bit suspicious of splatbooks.
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-07, 03:24 AM	If everyone in one of my campaigns wanted to run the exact same new class, I would ban it too. Methinks the players want to have fun being evil here.
Hack and Smasher 03-15-07, 07:28 AM	I'd suggest lending him the book and let him get a good read of it. But if you hearts setting on being a nercomancer play a cleric and do it in plate, while healing yourself.
Genetic 03-15-07, 12:26 PM	A party of all Dread Necromancers? Hmmm. It's very strange, but not too hard for a DM to deal with. Limit the amount of Undead they can control by not having every single thing thrown at them being a raisable creature... And if they DO get a lot of Undead, time for them to face a party of Positive Energy Plane Planar Shepherds and some Radiant Servants of Pelor!
Matthew77 03-15-07, 01:01 PM	I'm with the DM on this one. Allowing one player to use a new class so that you get a chance to evaluate it is one thing. Suddenly having an entire party of Necromancers is a completely different issue. I think the DM should have expressed his objection more clearly, perhaps "Guys, I'm really not prepared to DM a game where all the PCs are controlling undead. How about you keep those character ideas in mind and either myself or someone in the group can work up a campaign for that party, but for this adventure, I want you to use core only." I fully sympathize with the DM. Having an extremely odd combination of character classes can be difficult to deal with, especially if its the first time you've ever played with the class in question.
kelvinaw273 03-15-07, 02:15 PM	Well, if somebody came up to me with a new copy of the XPH that I had not seen before, and said that they wanted to play a psionic character, I'd probably give them a cautious yes if I hadn't seen the XPH before. If a few days later I discovered that every single player wanted a psionic character, I'd probably freak and do what this DM has done. No offence, but it isn't a case of finding your way with one player, it's overwhelming him with all of you! Instead of finding something to challenge one player nce in a while, he has to learn the new rules and class to challenge all of you all the time. That makes a BIG difference. (a) Why on earth did you all suddenly decide to play Dread Necromancers? That's a crazy thing to do for a group of players at any time. Doing an all-psionic party (above) makes more sense ... at least that is doable. (b) You aren't the only players, the DM has to play too. Give a little consideration to his plot and campaign. He may have been able to accomodate one evil undead controller, but not a party of them. It could involve him having to rewrite entire sections of his upcoming game.
johnkretzer 03-15-07, 03:13 PM	Ah, well I have never used Psionics, so I am lost regarding it. The thing is, he has DMed for us before, and tends to show a bit of a disregard for the rules. I think that the best course of action is to just choose not to play, rather than risk my friendship over something like D&D. I honestly think that I would be too annoyed to resist raping and killing his NPCs if I played. The thing is, I tried this, and when I reminded him how he played non-core classes and used non-core feats in every campaign so far, he just said "My campaign" and left it at that. Then yes you best course of action would be not to play. Or just wondering isn't there anyother character concepts you have?
Gluestick 03-15-07, 03:32 PM	We talked it out, and it seems that he was just concerned about all of us wantign to play it. We agreed that an evaluation would be fine, so long as everybody was not one.
DarkNick 03-15-07, 03:41 PM	well, that makes my whole post a waste :D gald you got it sorted. I thought he was just having a knee jerk reaction to the whole party doing it...
High Octane 03-15-07, 03:44 PM	Sounds like the DM is opposing your will. I think it is time to murder him... Sadly this is the attitude of many players.
DarkNick 03-15-07, 03:53 PM	Sadly this is the attitude of many players. oh, opps, I see what your saying, I'm slow today...I thought that, but then you didn't...please ignore my totaly did not get the point post...
Stumm_Dolch 03-15-07, 04:11 PM	I think it boils down to this... A group of all Necromancers is not the campaign he wants to run. Before I opt to DM for anyone I find a general plot I want to go with, one I can be super excited about. He probably had one in mind and your group makeup just wouldn't work... not without doing things he doesn't want to do anyway. He didn't say this because he thought he'd just put his foot down and give a generic GM response and YOU would respect his decision and come up with another idea. But you didn't did you, you started this instead. Earlier you said you and your group didn't even get to give feedback on the decision... sure you did. A silent/empty table is a loud declaration of your dissapproval.
DarkNick 03-15-07, 04:18 PM	We talked it out, and it seems that he was just concerned about all of us wantign to play it. We agreed that an evaluation would be fine, so long as everybody was not one. It is all sorted Stumm_Dolch. sigh, I love happy endings.
Stumm_Dolch 03-15-07, 04:26 PM	Darn it, there I go stirring the pot... I swear I thought I'd caught ever post. No excuses, my bad. Glad you sorted it out. Next time don't be so argumentative to your friends. ((I'm immune to my own advice btw... comes from my Cap of Asshattery.))
Ack 03-15-07, 05:01 PM	Aww, and I had all sorts of gratuitous/obvious advice to give out too...:allalone:
DarkNick 03-15-07, 05:32 PM	yep, our work here is done... :tissue:
Aeromus 03-16-07, 06:40 PM	And the rest of our group thought that it would be fun, so we all decided to play Dread Necro. Any non-core class that everyone decides to play after finding it, is overpowered. I agree with the stance your DM has taken.
Ack 03-17-07, 12:34 AM	Any non-core class that everyone decides to play after finding it, is overpowered. I agree with the stance your DM has taken. I don't know ... sometimes a particular class just looks cool. Like for me, I really prefer to put as many levels of Dwarven Paragon as I can on to any dwarf I play; not because of the +2 CON at the end (though that is useful :D) but because I get to flesh him out and improve his racial characteristics. At the end of it, he can't do anything that he couldn't do before - but what he can do, he does better.
plasword 04-01-07, 08:56 PM	It feels like my DM is opposing me. What should I do? Sit down grab dice & take it. That's what all DMs do.