Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallin Rahl 02-13-07, 09:27 PM	I've played with the same group (of close friends) for a long time now. Our normal DM (when I'm not DMing) does a great job overall. ...but I'm stuck in an awkward situation now, with my newest character (in his new campaign). Since I read the Tome of Magic, I've been dying to play a Binder. The class just oozed flavor. The DM said the class sounded good to him as well. I came up with a cool and flavorful backstory that sounded fun to roleplay and was ready to go. However, after the first two sessions, it has become apparent that my DM has absolutely no interest in roleplaying the flavorful side of the Binder class... dealing with the vestiges. Any time I go to bind anything it's "OK, make your roll... moving on..." Just *pop* one second I declare my intention to bind something, then *pop* (one roll of the die later) it's on to other stuff. The Binder class is a solid one... but what drew me to the class was the flavor of the whole thing. ...and now apparently that's all just tossed out the window. I talked with him about it (we're friends, after all... no reason to dance around the issue hehe) and brought up my concerns... and indeed it seems he has no interest in actually roleplaying this part of my character. There's no mechanical reason for it and he doesn't want to spend the time on it (like I'm hogging the spotlight :P ...it's a 2-PC game for cryin' out loud). So no I'm stuck. I could go on playing a character that has lost a hefty portion of its appeal to me... or I could roll a new character and give up the cool backstory I had worked-out and all the fun roleplaying experiences that could stem from it. Damned if I do... and if I don't, you get the picture. /sigh Sorry for the venting... ...I feel a little better now (well, not really :P). So do I keep at it, even though the character has lost a lot of appeal to me? ...or scrap/reroll and waste a perfectly cool backstory (ripe with roleplaying possibilities)?
SokenzanMarauder 02-13-07, 09:44 PM	Why not do the descriptions of your binding chakra points yourself? -Gene
Salla 02-13-07, 09:45 PM	The trick is, instead of relying on him to provide your flavor, do it yourself. I don't know the Binder class (don't have the book), so this is largely speculative, so instead of going ... "I'm going to bind Ishkibibble." go more like "I raise my hands to the sky, hissing alien words of dominance and control, weaving blood-red runes in the air. I cry out, 'Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies, I now command your power!'" *roll*
SokenzanMarauder 02-13-07, 09:55 PM	The trick is, instead of relying on him to provide your flavor, do it yourself. I don't know the Binder class (don't have the book), so this is largely speculative, so instead of going ... "I'm going to bind Ishkibibble." go more like "I raise my hands to the sky, hissing alien words of dominance and control, weaving blood-red runes in the air. I cry out, 'Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies, I now command your power!'" *roll* Exactly! Players can create their own flavor in-game too. Especially in combat, describe those attacks, it helps the DM make unique descriptions out of them.
Artector 02-13-07, 10:05 PM	I concur with what has already been said. Otherwise you can just re-roll a new character. I'd suggest attempting to roleplay it yourself for a session or two then decide if you want a new one.
Thubby 02-13-07, 10:56 PM	i agree with what eveyone has said so far, but other than that... you could choose to focus on another rp aspect of the binder, the persecution, remember, binders are considered heretics and witches (in a bad way). evil twisted things, noto fit for life. dodging town guard, preaching tolerance, and finding acceptance makes awesome rp
Pallin Rahl 02-13-07, 11:08 PM	Sadly, your suggestions don't really fit the situation... You mention that you're not familiar with Binders - fair enough. :) I do roleplay the actual summoning as best I can... but once you call the vestige to bind with them, the vestige appears to commune with the Binder. There is no mechanical reason for it... but essentially the vestige appears as an NPC entity. IMHO it's awkward and stepping on the DMs toes if I start roleplaying summoned NPC entities. Granted, he isn't taking the initiative to have his toes stepped on... but still. It would be like walking into the potion shop and then the player (not the DM) voicing the shopkeeper. ...would just be odd. See, that's the thing. When I call a vestige... mechanically, there is no reason for me to speak with it. ...however, the flavor of the class should find me conversing with these entities. It's ripe with roleplaying possibilities. Otherwise, there's no problem roleplaying the character... but I could be roleplaying the same style of character were I a random warlock or whatever... /shrug ...just kinda stinks to "lose" that opportunity to explore that specific whole side of my character. Eh... it was a good vent, regardless hehe
Salla 02-13-07, 11:13 PM	Sadly, your suggestions don't really fit the situation... You mention that you're not familiar with Binders - fair enough. :) I do roleplay the actual summoning as best I can... but once you call the vestige to bind with them, the vestige appears to commune with the Binder. There is no mechanical reason for it... but essentially the vestige appears as an NPC entity. IMHO it's awkward and stepping on the DMs toes if I start roleplaying summoned NPC entities. Granted, he isn't taking the initiative to have his toes stepped on... but still. It would be like walking into the potion shop and then the player (not the DM) voicing the shopkeeper. ...would just be odd. See, that's the thing. When I call a vestige... mechanically, there is no reason for me to speak with it. ...however, the flavor of the class should find me conversing with these entities. It's ripe with roleplaying possibilities. Otherwise, there's no problem roleplaying the character... but I could be roleplaying the same style of character were I a random warlock or whatever... /shrug ...just kinda stinks to "lose" that opportunity to explore that specific whole side of my character. Eh... it was a good vent, regardless hehe Good points all around. Actually, I wouldn't object to you RPing your vestige, provided you weren't trying to gain some out-of-line benefit out of it. The Vestige is one of your class features, like a familiar or animal companion (IMHO), and I generally have players control their own familiars and animal companions, so I'd have no problems with you communing with your own vestige, though on an occassion I might momentarily usurp it to, say, drop a plot point.
johnkretzer 02-13-07, 11:51 PM	You could try to get the other PC involed.... I can see where your DM might be coming from but.... Also with Binders don't they have to roll to see if they made a smart deal?(I don't have my book with me at this second) If you fail that roll you take on aspects of the vestige....just 'fail' a couple of those rolls then you have to RP the vestige.
Elemental_Elf 02-14-07, 12:18 AM	IMO your problem stems from the fact that there are so many vestiges, each with their own personalities and agendas, that have little or no meaning in the campaign other than to your character, I can fully understand why your DM has shied away from role playing the vestiges. It's like coming up with 20 (or more) new NPCs, that come out sparingly... What I'm trying to say is that its a lot of work heaped on a DM for no one else's benefit other than your own. Now there is a way to rectify this problem but, it will take concessions on each side. You need to to make a list, on a single sheet of paper, with the personalities of your most often used Vestiges. This list should be small, perhaps 5, with a new one added every time you gain access to more powerful vestiges. Tell your DM that these are the Vestiges you will use most often and would thusly like him to learn their back story and agenda so as to enhance your fun. Now this also means that Vestiges you use less often will be mechanically role played (i.e. Roll die, make or break). This boils down to, you get some RP and get the enjoyment of your character with your favorite Vestiges but your DM doesn't have to memorize 20+ new NPCs. :D
ArcTan 02-14-07, 12:52 AM	IMO your problem stems from the fact that there are so many vestiges, each with their own personalities and agendas, that have little or no meaning in the campaign other than to your character, I can fully understand why your DM has shied away from role playing the vestiges. It's like coming up with 20 (or more) new NPCs, that come out sparingly... What I'm trying to say is that its a lot of work heaped on a DM for no one else's benefit other than your own. Yeah, but the thing is that vestiges have their personalities and behaviors already spelled out for you in the book. You don't have to invent anything. That's the point. Moreover, vestiges are explicitly flavored to be very easy "NPCs" to play, because they're not complete beings -- they're just vestiges, traces, leftover images of beings. They have no memory. They don't recall what you said to them the last time you summoned or bound them. They have no experiences in the world when you're not binding them, and they don't remember the ones they do have when you do. They say the same things every time you call them -- or, rather, they say completely different random variations on the same things every time you call them. And they never give you meaningful information or advice when you call them (which is why the summoning process has no mechanical effect). In other words, it's set up precisely so that it shouldn't be any big deal to RP the binding process. If the DM really can't be bothered to do something the book is set up to make it easy for him to do, he really is just being lazy. On the other hand, since it is RP that's intended to have no plot-significant effect, there's nothing wrong with the player RPing it if the DM really steadfastly refuses to. It does feel weird, but it pretty much is you coming up with flavor for something that only affects you. Most players are allowed to come up with the backstory, personality, and specific in-game responses and actions of familiars, animal companions, and even cohorts, thralls, followers and mercenaries, so it's really not that big a deal. After all, if you make a poor pact, you're the one who has to roleplay the vestige in the form of its influence on you anyway.
Elemental_Elf 02-14-07, 01:07 AM	Very true, but that is just one more book your DM has to have handy, one more thing he has to worry about, etc. But I agree, the Player can RP all of this out, I was just under the assumption that the OP wanted to Role Play it with his DM rather than as a solo act.
DrakePD 02-14-07, 03:09 PM	You could try to get the other PC involed.... I can see where your DM might be coming from but.... Also with Binders don't they have to roll to see if they made a smart deal?(I don't have my book with me at this second) If you fail that roll you take on aspects of the vestige....just 'fail' a couple of those rolls then you have to RP the vestige. This is what I was thinking...
devinmdp 02-14-07, 03:09 PM	The real problem is that your PC is going to be binding vestigaes every day (and more often with the right feats). That is quite simply too many times to roleplay essentially the same thing over and over again. If I were the DM, I'd certainly have roleplayed out the first summoning of a new vestige and probably the first few times for each vestige thereafter, just to develop the flavour. But after that, I would probably only occasionally RP it if, frex, the PC was engaged in some task antithetical or favoured by the vestige. But I would not RP the vestige summoning every single time! Devin
Kradlo 02-14-07, 07:31 PM	"I raise my hands to the sky, hissing alien words of dominance and control, weaving blood-red runes in the air. I cry out, 'Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies, I now command your power!'" Oh, I'm so going to steal this! :D
Pallin Rahl 02-14-07, 08:26 PM	Devin: I totally understand not wanting to roleplay it every single time... I'm not unreasonable. ...but as some have mentioned, at least the first time you summon each vestige ...or occationally, otherwise, would be nice. :) P.S. "I raise my hands to the sky, hissing alien words of dominance and control, weaving blood-red runes in the air. I cry out, 'Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies, I now command your power!'" *roll* No one commands Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies' power, except Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies. ;)
hunterc311 02-14-07, 10:16 PM	No one commands Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies' power, except Ishkibibble the Omnipotent, Demon of Oatmeal Raisin Cookies. ;) Actually, Keebler and Nabisco do a pretty good job of commanding that power...
Thubby 02-14-07, 10:30 PM	Actually, Keebler and Nabisco do a pretty good job of commanding that power... perhaps, but do they hold the power of utterly rediculous names? (oh, wait, they do. dam!)