Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dnarris 06-17-07, 07:08 PM	Ahhhhhh! My DM just told me the Daring Outlaw feat is too powerful. He also told me using feats that work together like power attack and leap attack are too powerful. And that arcane casters aren't allowed because they are too powerful! I'm scared this campaign is going to boring as heck! :weep:
Abyssal_Eye 06-17-07, 07:18 PM	Can't say I had this situation myself, but yeah, sounds pretty bad. How about discussing with the DM to use the ToB or something to push up the martial classes a bit instead of just forbidding all arcane casters? That is, unless it's a specifically created homebrew world in which there is no arcane casting whatsoever...
Dnarris 06-17-07, 07:26 PM	ToB is too powerful too. Heck...even monkey grip so you can use a bigger weapon is too powerful >_<
navar100 06-17-07, 07:28 PM	They aren't too powerful. Your DM is too weak. Oh the horror DMs must suffer when a player character can actually do something.
Cold Napalm 06-17-07, 07:29 PM	and yet the cleric and druid is not?!? WTF?!? Well I say play a CoDzilla and make him cry if you can't make him see reason.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-17-07, 07:32 PM	Shove a broomstick up his butt. It won't fix his idiocy, but it will make you feel better.
Tempest Stormwind 06-17-07, 07:52 PM	They aren't too powerful. Your DM is too weak.Succinct, witty, and directly to the point. This, ladies and gentlemen, is win. Present Bolthar the Lazy as your character. He's a commoner with 8 in every ability score and 4 ranks in Profession (Power Napping). His feat is Endurance, simply because it's the only feat that has the word "sleep" in it. When your DM doesn't take you seriously, look him straight in the eye and say "But everything else is too powerful!". Bonus points if you manage to do this in a reasonable facsimile of his voice and tone. If that doesn't work, ask him what isn't too powerful. Then pass it here. Those of us who have more of a mind for basic math and reasoning can easily demonstrate how it can outdo most of what he thinks is overpowered. This is ESPECIALLY easy if he answers with any form of divine magic.
Esponer 06-17-07, 07:53 PM	ToB is too powerful too. Heck...even monkey grip so you can use a bigger weapon is too powerful Monkey Grip decreases your damage dealt, practically. Your DM is the most pathetic person on this planet.
Dnarris 06-17-07, 08:09 PM	He also mentioned that any feat that works together to produce a better result is too powerful.
bobothechimp 06-17-07, 08:10 PM	How about you ask him why these things are too powerful, instead of complaining about it on the internet? Then you can try, maybe, possibly, you know, if it's not too much trouble, that's fine, but I still think you should talk to him about it and try to get some information that's actually useful to us that we would be able to work with in order to show how he's wrong, instead of just complaining about it.
Archangel62 06-17-07, 08:20 PM	I have a fascinating question, is your DM going to have monsters in this campaign world? If so then I would LOVE to know how any of the common races survive.
Karish 06-17-07, 08:25 PM	Arcane Spellcasters are too powerful. He said this? I suggest a hammergun, and a new DM.
TVLLestatTVL 06-17-07, 08:27 PM	They aren't too powerful. Your DM is too weak. Oh the horror DMs must suffer when a player character can actually do something. OWNED! On a further note. Why not you take over DMing? Obviously you understand how feats and skills work. If you've never DMed before read through the DMG. Also i'm sure you've played D&D before and have aquired some know how of how to be a DM.
Salla 06-17-07, 08:38 PM	It's time for the party of Holy Rollers!
Dnarris 06-17-07, 08:41 PM	His reasoning as to why they are too powerful is only because he feels they are. Unfortunately his reasoning also includes that elves, half-orcs, and halflings are too powerful.
Dnarris 06-17-07, 08:47 PM	Wow...and the first thing he did to us is attack our 4 level 3 characters with 8 wolves and a level 9 druid. Half the party died in the first encounter. >_<
Crimson_Concerto 06-17-07, 08:51 PM	Seriously, what isn't this guy banning? Seriously, with what you've told me, I could post quite a long list of where he has a horrendous perception of balance and is a horrible DM. Examples?: Monkey Grip is less powerful than Power Attack. Half-Orcs are considered one of the least powerful base races. Tome of Battle is one of the best-balanced books out in a long time. You're apparently not having fun.
esteigs 06-17-07, 08:55 PM	I suggest a hammergun, and a new DM. I second this suggestion. your DM has officially been threadpwned
Dnarris 06-17-07, 08:55 PM	Nah, I just told the DM, I'm going to have to bow out of the game. I can't make a character the way I want even within reason. I'm not enjoying myself, especially by being dominated in the first encounter. I spent half the encounter entangled with my armor burning me, face down in the mud. It's just not fun already.
Crimson_Concerto 06-17-07, 08:58 PM	Nah, I just told the DM, I'm going to have to bow out of the game. I can't make a character the way I want even within reason. I'm not enjoying myself, especially by being dominated in the first encounter. I spent half the encounter entangled with my armor burning me, face down in the mud. It's just not fun already.Then, sir, I applaud your decision to bow out of the game and completely agree. :clap: Hey, do you think it would be possible to get your DM on this forum so we can personally ask him what he's smoking and where we can get some? Oh, and we'd also love to hear his reasoning on why all of these things he banned are overpowered, but he still feels it was fair to send you up against a Druid that was 4 levels higher than you?
Salla 06-17-07, 09:01 PM	His reasoning as to why they are too powerful is only because he feels they are. Unfortunately his reasoning also includes that elves, half-orcs, and halflings are too powerful. Wow...and the first thing he did to us is attack our 4 level 3 characters with 8 wolves and a level 9 druid. Half the party died in the first encounter. >_< Has this guy ever run a game before in his LIFE??!!
AAB 06-17-07, 09:02 PM	haha. disallowing arcane caster PCs and then sending them up against a druid... this guy's just plain mean.
OneWinged4ngel 06-17-07, 11:37 PM	They aren't too powerful. Your DM is too weak. For once I agree with navar. Succinct and to-the-point. Honestly, your DM is insane, and doesn't have a CLUE what's going on as far as power goes, especially since he's calling all these things too powerful and not touching the DRUID, which is often considered the most powerful class in D&D.
Candin 06-17-07, 11:43 PM	It's time for the party of Holy Rollers! I agree. and lol.
TheWerg 06-18-07, 12:45 AM	Seriously, what isn't this guy banning? TPKs, it sounds like. Other than that, it doesn't seem like much. Good decision, don't game with people who are complete douchebags.
QuantumSteve 06-18-07, 03:07 AM	I normally take the side of the DM in Rule 0 issues, but most these restrictions border on ludicrousness. Wow...and the first thing he did to us is attack our 4 level 3 characters with 8 wolves and a level 9 druid. Half the party died in the first encounter. >_< A CR 10 vs. an ECL 3 party!!! What is he on? From the COB: I'd gladly play a druid, but he's made any spell caster that's not part of the Church of Ayr in his campaign a heretic and they are instantly hunted down and killed. Apparently, the only casters allowed in his game are his TPKs. If you can't talk some sense into this guy (unlikely) you have to walk. Anything is better than this guy.
Roivas 06-18-07, 04:45 AM	I can't even conceive of playing in a game such as this. Being told that one feat that feeds off another is too powerful is ridiculous, why would there be feats like Weapon Specialization if this were the case? 3rd level characters are supposed to be reasonably competent at their chosen specialties and decent at surviving others too, but this is based off the idea that they improve their skills as they level! What next he'll claim that base attack bonus from different classes don't stack since it would unbalance the game? Just don't play. Reading the monster manual sounds like more fun than being in this guy's game.
Archangel62 06-18-07, 07:31 AM	On the upside at least it wasn't boring... That being said this guy sounds like a few DMs I've dealt with, they get off on little power trips like this. Specifically screw over the players and slam them around and make the game world in such a way that they can't survive or succeed. The problem is that this DM is like far too many, they see themselves as little tin gods, so, my reccomendation is offer to DM for the group, hell even invite this DM, and if you really want to be hamfisted ask if he likes being able to function as the game progresses.
Ack 06-18-07, 07:36 AM	Now, now ... in the current game that I'm in, there are three female players and 2 male players. The three female players are intelligent and capable of playing well (and also making up their own minds) but are also willing to listen to advice from others. One is a wizard with a rat familiar (which she agreed to get to use as a distraction when she was in a tight spot) and the others are well-thought-out in much the same fashion. Interestingly enough, one plays Nintendo, one does needlepoint at the table, and one sketches almost incessantly - and yet, they are all able to keep up with the game :P They are much less stereotypical than us two male players; I'm the dwarf (Paragon 3/Ranger 1) and the other guy is a halfling Rogue 3/Cleric 1 (because we needed a healer). I already had a fair opinion of females in the game - and these three don't make me think any less of the idea. Oh, and there are two ongoing relationships at the table; the GM with one of the girls (the one who plays Nintendo) and the guy playing the halfling with the girl who does needlepoint. Neither of these disrupts the game to any extent. However, the GM (although I've known him for years, and he's a good GM for the most part) is ... a little aggravating at times. I'm considering opening a new thread on him. He's the originator of the "stonecunning" posts I've made elsewhere ... :banghead: just thinking about it. Also, he has this tendency to be vague about distances and other measurements when it's not the NPCs that are benefiting, and extremely precise when it is. For instance (this is the reason I semi-stormed out of the game last Sunday, with the excuse that I had to get to work): The fight took place on a barge that was tied up to a pier. The pier is 60 feet long. The barge gets from place to place by being rowed. So far so good. However, it turned out when the halfling wanted to sneak on board, the oar-holes in the side of the boat are a minimum of ten feet above the water. Minimum. This is a barge that is at least 60 feet wide, and probably much wider. If you have a 10 foot drop to the water, and you need more than two people on each oar ... that's gonna be a long oar to reach the water in order to not be at an impossible angle for several people to be holding on to it. Secondly, when we were trying to get on board to a fight that had broken out (there were bounty hunters there looking for us, and the halfling had just ambushed one) we were only told that "the gangplank reduces your speed by half, so taking a 20-foot move only gets you 10 feet; up on to the deck". This is exactly what he said. From this, one considers that the deck is nearly level with the pier, considering that a sloping gangplank only 10' long (but slowing you down to half movement) is sufficient to reach. Move on to the fight. It was tough; we're all level 4, there are no magic weapons to be had, my character ran out of healing potions last game and hasn't had time or option to get more, or get any healing apart from sleep, so he's on about 3/4 HP. The others are a little better off, but these bounty hunters (there are three of them, all buffed, all three are Rogue/Sorcerer builds with at least 30 hp apiece, all carrying better weapons than we were, and tricked out with pre-arranged tactics) were murderous. No missteps, no mis-communications, picked their tactics and hammered us badly. My character lost 30 hp in about three rounds, and I only managed to get off about one hit in melee. However, we managed to down two of them; by this time my dwarf (on 1 hp - they never missed me once) had withdrawn and (hampered by the fact that he only has one arm - that still hasn't been addressed) was laboriously loading his crossbow and shooting into melee. The GM, incidentally, was ruling that with one arm my character had to make a Reflex check to spend a full-round action loading. Anyway, we managed to get two of them down, and the third decides to retreat. 5 feet to the gangway, down the gangway (losing 10 feet of move there) and then 35 feet along the 60 feet of pier. I declare that I'm moving to the rail and shooting her with my (freshly reloaded) crossbow. RI 120 feet, she's not in melee, I've got a good chance of it. He rules I can't see her. He states that the deck of the barge is twenty feet above the pier, and that with her move and my move, she will be covered by the edge of the deck. I queried the twenty feet, especially since the gangway is only ten feet long. He threatened to retcon the whole battle, making it so we couldn't get on board to help the halfling for another whole round at the beginning. At that point, I gave up and left; he wouldn't or couldn't see (or admit) that if the vertical drop is 20 feet, then the diagonal has to be MUCH more than 10 feet. And you know something? He's never offered to retcon anything that would give the players an advantage. Gah. :banghead: Oh, and on topic? He thinks fighters are overpowered. Go figure. (Of course, since we never get far enough along for druids to gain true pwnage, I'm not surprised).
WizO_Cat 06-18-07, 07:56 AM	Let's leave the sexist stereotypes off of the boards. Thanks.
Paladin_Hiroshi 06-18-07, 08:48 AM	I have a considered opinion to this...as a paladin..... HAMMERGUN HAMMERGUN HAMMERGUN HAMMER GUN!!!!!!! Oh sweet jesus hammergun him, his very existance shames good Dm's worldwide. ...end of rant. (note this does not violate my paladin code in anyway) <<< Smite Idiocy! :D
Ayra 06-18-07, 09:08 AM	I wonder why DMs are so set on forbidding (core) things, claiming they are too powerful. I don't know completely for sure, but I'm convinced that the developers of the D&D game are very much competent to create something that is playable. Granted some combinations of classes/prc's and feats can become very powerful, but forbidding everything usually isn't the best option. If your DM is overly paranoid, just tell him to use core only. Core only is reasonably balanced. It has druids and clerics, but alongside the rest of the party they are perfectly playable as long as you don't go 1on1 in PVP with other members of your party.
RobbyPants 06-18-07, 12:48 PM	and yet the cleric and druid is not?!? WTF?!? Well I say play a CoDzilla and make him cry if you can't make him see reason. :rofl: That was going to be my suggestion too. Of course, they'll probably just get added to the black list. Soon, the players will have no options but fighter (sans good feat combos), bard, samurai, and hexblade. :P
Ghauldin 06-18-07, 01:05 PM	Umm guys.. does anybody else get this feeling that maybe such a DM doesn't exist and Dnarris is really making all this up? Or maybe my subconcious is rebelling against the idea of such a preternaturally dumb DM. :raincloud
Evil DM Mk3 06-18-07, 01:17 PM	If this guy is real I am going to recomend the removal of his DM licance. Plus a few other things.
Eldritch_Lord 06-18-07, 01:17 PM	Your subconscious is rebelling. He very well could be just making this up, but it's probably true; one person in my group described his last DM, and he could have been this guy's evil twin...er, he's already evil:thinks:...equal twin. Never underestimate the power of stupid people. Oh, and I also suggest the hammergun.
danielinthewolvesden 06-18-07, 01:44 PM	Ahhhhhh! My DM just told me the Daring Outlaw feat is too powerful. What is the Daring Outlaw feat?:confused:
BloodDragon 06-18-07, 02:50 PM	Heck...even monkey grip so you can use a bigger weapon is too powerful >_< Sign of a DM still in training... He doesn't know how to handle basic feats. Don't know what to tell you other then: To rough it out, talk to him, or leave. I don't mean to sound rude but monkey grip is any thing BUT overpowered. I honestly suggest the "talk to him" solution first.
Tempest Stormwind 06-18-07, 03:57 PM	What is the Daring Outlaw feat?:confused: One of many multiclass feats in Complete Scoundrel, similar to those in Complete Adventurer (although not limited to aligned / multiclass-restricted classes). Daring Outlaw provides some synergy between swashbuckler and rogue, if I recall correctly.
Ayra 06-18-07, 04:54 PM	Your subconscious is rebelling. He very well could be just making this up, but it's probably true; one person in my group described his last DM, and he could have been this guy's evil twin...er, he's already evil:thinks:...equal twin. Never underestimate the power of stupid people. Oh, and I also suggest the hammergun. I've come to realize that basically everything is possible, so this could be as well. And if it isn't then I'm sure someone else who has (or even worse, IS) a DM like this can learn from the posts here!
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 05:02 PM	I disbelieve. *rolls Will save while schismed consciousness passes heavily enchanted hammergun*
Pfisiar 06-18-07, 05:07 PM	I bet DMs like this used to be players who constantly played half-elf bards in campaigns that never lasted long enough for PCs to become level 3. These half-elf bards are naturally annoyed when Fighters or Barbarians pwn stuff much more than themselves at these levels. Therefore, Fighters/Barbarians and anything that help them is overpowered. And Arcane magic is clearly overpowered because it makes said half-elf bard look weak.
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 05:09 PM	I bet DMs like this used to be players who constantly played half-elf bards in campaigns that never lasted long enough for PCs to become level 3. These half-elf bards are naturally annoyed when Fighters or Barbarians pwn stuff much more than themselves at these levels. Therefore, Fighters/Barbarians and anything that help them is overpowered. And Arcane magic is clearly overpowered because it makes said half-elf bard look weak. Replace all instances of elf in the above with orc and you're getting warmer. :D
Pfisiar 06-18-07, 05:10 PM	half-elf, half-orc. What's the difference? They both suck. :P
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 05:17 PM	half-elf, half-orc. What's the difference? They both suck. :P This is true, however the half elf bard is at least useful for Diplomacy optimization exercises. Half orc bards are like... elf fighters.
Radiun 06-18-07, 05:26 PM	half-elf, half-orc. What's the difference? They both suck. :P Soothing Voice > You :P
GnomeMade 06-18-07, 06:24 PM	You know, I'm surprised you played. He must be some kind of friend or something, or I don't see why you even tried it. I mean, he'd get to sentence number three with me, because I would shrug at the first one, look at him incredulously at the second, trying to gauge if he was joking, and by the third, I would scoff and leave. "If you didn't want me to play, why didn't you just say so?" would have been added if he was a friend of mine, and would have been changed to,"Your definition of playing D&D and mine are very different, goodbye." if not. If by some alignment of ill fortune, leaving this game wasn't an option, I would take it as seriously as a bucket of clowns. I would be a robe wearing fighter who thought she was a wizard. I'd collect brightly colored sand and throw it at the wolves eyes. I'd insist I was speaking draconic incantations instead of just gargling. I'd dump grease, 'distilled' (squeezed out of the cooked meat like water from a sponge) from chicken or pork in a bucket and splash enemies with it, insisting it was a magic spell to call this liquid from this bucket onto the enemy. (The jabbering and throwing actions are just verbal and somantic components, don't you know?) I'd throw flour in the air and insist it was a concealing mist around my mysterious robes. I'd throw knives at enemies, insisting I was using 'mage hands' with 'touch attack spells' that only appeared to be made of metal. I would spin around in circles, insisting that I was 'blinking'. This would continue, until my character got killed (it probably wouldn't take long), but not to worry, I would have another ready, who would insist she was a bard, even though she's really a barbarian, and her singing is actually a rage. It's just that in order to play the greatest music with her axe, it has to be in motion. :D If the game is not fun, it's going to be made fun of. ;)
snakeman830 06-18-07, 08:13 PM	Man, I'd leave this DM too. It's bad enough my current one (who's giving me a break) keeps inventing these seriously overpowered races and templates for his characters and limits our choices, but at least he doesn't limit us on feats/skills/equipment. His latest campaign limited our class selections slightly, but that was to keep flavor. He often puts us through several battles a day without healing against CR's 1.5 times our level (at low levels), but we still win. (though last time I was seriously low on power points) I on the other hand, am much more likely to execute a TPK, and I don't limit my players at all! (not in races, even. Okay, they still have to be below a certian ECL) I'm just that much more brutal.:D oh yes, hammergun reccomendation #??? (seriously, I lost count at about 15) So, what isn't banned? human commoner? Kobold monk? Goblin Palidan? (play either of the last two. that should be a lot of fun). If wizards wern't a banned class, I think it would be fun for you to do a goblin wizard. They're actually quite good for that.
Flay Crimsonwind 06-19-07, 12:53 AM	I'm jumping the wagon. Shoot him in the face with a hammer. This guy is ridiculous. He's calling essentially all the non-human base races overpowered, along with a good handful of the base classes. He can't be reasoned with, and can't DM. There is no feasible way he can. He is not a DM, he's an idiot. Find a new DM dude, that's all I can say. If he calls the PHB overpowered because a half-orc fighter exists, then he has no right to be DMing. I'd love to play a game against him. Not with him, against him. Just to **** with his mind! Leave dude. I understand if he's a friend or something, but he isn't fit to DM. Leave the group... find someone new or take over yourself. And good luck.] ---edit--- As you can tell from the above post, you have utterly dumbfounded me. I cannot write any of my sweet-sounding posts; I sound bland and repetitive. That's how bad this guy is. I honestly thought you were lying for a second.
Gavinfoxx 06-25-07, 09:24 PM	I'm with the other people that think this is a joke post. Who is with me?
CryoSilver 06-25-07, 09:31 PM	Ahhhhhh! My DM just told me the Daring Outlaw feat is too powerful. He also told me using feats that work together like power attack and leap attack are too powerful. And that arcane casters aren't allowed because they are too powerful! I'm scared this campaign is going to boring as heck! :weep: Just tell the DM you aren't into playing house and having tea parties and that you'd like to play a heroic fantasy game instead.
happy_fuzzy 06-25-07, 10:23 PM	Play a gnome barbarian lol
Everdreaming 06-25-07, 10:38 PM	Dont forget, cats are also overpowered because they can kill commoners! And I somethingth the hammerguning.
Salla 06-25-07, 10:51 PM	I'm with the other people that think this is a joke post. Who is with me? Unfortunately, I have known DMs who have had these sorts of reflexes, so I find this post very believable.
Dnarris 06-26-07, 12:33 AM	This ended by me eventually just telling the DM that he's taken the fun out of the game for everyone except himself. Then after he refused to provide us with a little leeway at least comparable to his NPCs myself and the other two players left the campaign. It's been a week and no one else has decided to join his game.
Salla 06-26-07, 12:45 AM	This ended by me eventually just telling the DM that he's taken the fun out of the game for everyone except himself. Then after he refused to provide us with a little leeway at least comparable to his NPCs myself and the other two players left the campaign. It's been a week and no one else has decided to join his game. Democracy in action!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-26-07, 01:06 AM	:rofl: That was going to be my suggestion too. Of course, they'll probably just get added to the black list. Soon, the players will have no options but fighter (sans good feat combos), bard, samurai, and hexblade. :P I doubt the bard will be on there. Dear god is it horrific when used right.
Yokomohoyo 06-26-07, 02:04 AM	Play a Vorpal Scyth Wielding Commoner, get improved critical and watch as your DM ban's it too.. :P
itwasntme 06-26-07, 02:22 AM	Ive played many games in which DM called something overpowerfull Try and talk to him and let him know that something isnt to overpowering ... sure he has the right to ban some things but w/e though the whole thing about the Druid realy seems over-rated in all my high level games with high level druids the druid useoly ended up getting punk slaped or killed on the spot and the barbian or fighter was doing better then the druid was and dont tell me "Its just the way your playing it ..." Alot of people who said that say the same things as you guys do came to play with us and just ended up dieing and again the fighter cleric barbian just gos *Shurg* And walk off the Wizard useoly better then the druid and in our games the wizard useoly killed realy quickly or needs protecting guardians to guard em ... P.S Wizo Cat i wuv you marry me?
Dnarris 06-26-07, 02:38 AM	I doubt the bard will be on there. Dear god is it horrific when used right. Actually....I find this really funny. He actually had bard avaiable without magic, but you still had your music, and sneak attack, and a couple of other things added to it.
Forfeit 06-26-07, 01:23 PM	Powerplayers... The worst kind of player a DM can face. They make the game pretty boring for the DM.
Archangel62 06-26-07, 01:39 PM	Powerplayers... The worst kind of player a DM can face. They make the game pretty boring for the DM. Care to explain this and how it has any context in this thread.
Forfeit 06-26-07, 01:55 PM	Care to explain this and how it has any context in this thread. He also told me using feats that work together like power attack and leap attack are too powerful. And that arcane casters aren't allowed because they are too powerful! I'm scared this campaign is going to boring as heck! If your character is not powerfull, the campaign is boring.
Jenny With The Lantern 06-26-07, 02:32 PM	I don't think that's what he meant. If there's nothing to choose from, how can you build something you like? I mean, no arcane casters, no stacking feats? He's not looking for something über-powerful as far as I can tell..
Dnarris 06-26-07, 02:49 PM	If your character is not powerfull, the campaign is boring. You sound like a perfect canidate for his campaign. Maybe I should give you his e-mail.
Archangel62 06-26-07, 03:10 PM	If your character is not powerfull, the campaign is boring. Yes, but the problem is that the stance of his DM on the nature of power is similar to someone screaming that a feather is heavy. Within a context (an ostritch feather is very heavy to an ant) it can make sense but if the comment is made as a blanket statement it appears odd. You seem to have an odd view as well, how do you define a power player? Someone who chooses a good combination of skills feats and abilities to be good at their job or do you instead feel that character decisions should be made by throwing darts at a dartboard?
Ack 06-26-07, 03:42 PM	A powergamer is anyone who can optimise better than I can. (j/k) :D
Forfeit 06-26-07, 04:33 PM	Yes, but the problem is that the stance of his DM on the nature of power is similar to someone screaming that a feather is heavy. Within a context (an ostritch feather is very heavy to an ant) it can make sense but if the comment is made as a blanket statement it appears odd. You seem to have an odd view as well, how do you define a power player? Someone who chooses a good combination of skills feats and abilities to be good at their job or do you instead feel that character decisions should be made by throwing darts at a dartboard? I do have an odd view. Most of my campaigns are heavily based on roleplay. Whenever I get a player that spends 6 hours trying to find a certain passage in a obscure book that I never heard off just so he can get a +1 on ranged atacks for free, instead of wasting the same time working on the story and personality of the character, I just know he wont work properly with the group. At least my group. Allthrough disabling arcane casters is way too much.
Radiun 06-26-07, 05:14 PM	I do have an odd view. Most of my campaigns are heavily based on roleplay. Whenever I get a player that spends 6 hours trying to find a certain passage in a obscure book that I never heard off just so he can get a +1 on ranged atacks for free, instead of wasting the same time working on the story and personality of the character, I just know he wont work properly with the group. At least my group. Allthrough disabling arcane casters is way too much. Fun Fact: Surviving encounters helps roleplaying :)
Dnarris 06-26-07, 06:21 PM	I do have an odd view. Most of my campaigns are heavily based on roleplay. Whenever I get a player that spends 6 hours trying to find a certain passage in a obscure book that I never heard off just so he can get a +1 on ranged atacks for free, instead of wasting the same time working on the story and personality of the character, I just know he wont work properly with the group. At least my group. Allthrough disabling arcane casters is way too much. Umm....and having the desire to play a wizard, or an elf, or a half orc, or to even use power attack with leap attack lumps me in that category somehow?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-26-07, 07:18 PM	Powerplayers... The worst kind of player a DM can face. They make the game pretty boring for the DM. Speaking as someone who's DMed for years, it makes the game more interesting for me. If it isn't a challenge to make an encounter that challenges the players, than it's rather boring.
ranewen 06-26-07, 08:00 PM	as a DM myself, i try to make my game fun for the players, constantly asking what can be done to improve? where do you want to go with your characters? these help me decide what all i can do. i only ask that they run stuff by me first. if i don't have a copy, then i expect either a book to be lent, or pages photocopied so i can read. so i can understand. as a closet munchkin, i've prolly given my players a bit too much leeway, however, i adjust their combat to counter for this. I know what they're cabilble of. I don't put a level 3 adventuring group tha'ts severely limited (what do you mean the sap is too overpowering?) against a fully lethal party well above their level (the 8 wolves and a level whatever druid, sorry too lazy to flip back) given that I bet that druid had been munckinized, it was probably over the EL 10 suggested, considering the party's lack of any powerful items or skills to note congrats on walking out to your and your tablemates. I hope the DM learned something at least. which would be that he sucks and should let someone else DM
Optimator 06-26-07, 08:44 PM	Fun Fact: Surviving encounters helps roleplaying :) Word.
koiulpoi 06-27-07, 02:42 AM	I do have an odd view. Most of my campaigns are heavily based on roleplay. Whenever I get a player that spends 6 hours trying to find a certain passage in a obscure book that I never heard off just so he can get a +1 on ranged atacks for free, instead of wasting the same time working on the story and personality of the character, I just know he wont work properly with the group. At least my group. Allthrough disabling arcane casters is way too much. There was this guy. Storm... storm something. Stormblow Galewind or something like that. I think he had some logic puzzle or fallacy or something related to this. At least I think so. I read it on the internet somewhere. It was something about optimizing players and roleplaying not being related. But I really don't know anything about it. You should ask him. In fact, I think I might have seen him on the way to posting this. [sarcasm filter off] Anyways, to the OP: Dear GOD that sounds bad. But then again, I was once told by a DM (attempting to convince him that 3rd edition was significantly better than 2nd) that "Power Attack will be banned from my games unless the casting classes have something similar." So know that you're not alone. My suggestion is to take up DMing yourself. Or to get that guy to actually read the DMG. You made the right choice to leave.
Salla 06-27-07, 05:54 PM	There was this guy. Storm... storm something. Stormblow Galewind or something like that. I think he had some logic puzzle or fallacy or something related to this. At least I think so. I read it on the internet somewhere. It was something about optimizing players and roleplaying not being related. But I really don't know anything about it. You should ask him. In fact, I think I might have seen him on the way to posting this. [sarcasm filter off] Dude, my computer just started bleeding! :)
Mock26 06-27-07, 06:01 PM	Massive amounts of power are not necessarily required for one to enjoy the game.
Archangel62 06-27-07, 06:29 PM	Massive amounts of power are not necessarily required for one to enjoy the game. Survival on the other hand is necessary to enjoy a character, and a DM who is consistent with the rules is VERY necessary
Tempest Stormwind 06-27-07, 06:36 PM	Massive amounts of power are not necessarily required for one to enjoy the game. Correct. At one and the same time, playing a blind, one-armed emo orphan raised by wolves and out for vengeance is also not necessarily required for one to enjoy the game. Similarly, massive amounts of power are not necessarily removed from character concept or execution. You don't need power to enjoy the game. You do need power to *survive* the game. D&D assumes you're playing a fantasy adventurer. You risk your life on a daily basis for whatever reasons you want (Fun, profit, excitement, a cause, or any of a thousand other reasons). You can either emerge victorious or dead (or, I suppose, run away from everything, but then you're not much of an adventurer). Natural selection of a sort kicks in, which is why most adventurers are very good at not dying. They have to be, or else they would have died. You don't need Raistlin-levels of power to be very good at not dying, although power certainly helps. Similarly, you don't have to turn out like Rincewind (although he certainly survives, he isn't very successful as an adventurer -- in fact, the books imply he's only alive because the goddess (?) known as the Lady (read: Lady Luck) favors him). You can't roleplay if you're dead. Thus, you need some degree of survivability. Against the challenges that show up in D&D, this equates to power. Don't fear power. You can still RP a character if you're strong.
koiulpoi 06-27-07, 08:11 PM	Dude, my computer just started bleeding! :) I'll take that as a compliment.
aotrscommander 06-28-07, 09:38 AM	Massive amounts of power are not necessarily required for one to enjoy the game. True, but then again some level of power generally helps. Feats stacking too powerful? WTF? I mean, take that out and you'll run out of things to spend you Fighter feats on! Guh. Even if it is an apocraphal tale - and I'm not convinced is necessarily is - that level of Stupid just reduced the universe's average intelligence. And seriously, from the sounds of the first encounter, the DM is just having a "you're crap and I'm god" problem. What is he, five? My personal recommendation would be Maximised Disintegrate. To the bowels. From the inside out. Fifty-seven times. Heck, if Aotrs regulations didn't specifically forbid me from doing so, I'd hunt him down myself!
Dnarris 07-05-07, 08:51 PM	Hahaha.... I had to bring back this post, because evidently my former DM ran a special 4th of July session at the local rec center for some random people and one my friends from a meet up group was in it sent me an e-mail about it. He told me the DM let all the players start out at level 4. He forbid casters, half-orcs, and gnomes. Gave all the players +1 weapon and 1 wonderous item that was 2200g or less. (This was more than he ever gave us). He set the four level 4 players against 10 wolves and the same level 9 druid that we fought. He slaughtered the entire party and then evidently said to the party "Funny how one level 9 druid can screw over an entire party." I guess he didn't learn anything when we all quit his group.
Gavinfoxx 07-05-07, 09:06 PM	Hahaha.... I had to bring back this post, because evidently my former DM ran a special 4th of July session at the local rec center for some random people and one my friends from a meet up group was in it sent me an e-mail about it. He told me the DM let all the players start out at level 4. He forbid casters, half-orcs, and gnomes. Gave all the players +1 weapon and 1 wonderous item that was 2200g or less. (This was more than he ever gave us). He set the four level 4 players against 10 wolves and the same level 9 druid that we fought. He slaughtered the entire party and then evidently said to the party "Funny how one level 9 druid can screw over an entire party." I guess he didn't learn anything when we all quit his group. I hope one of the random people punched him, rofl... I know I would have. Have you flat out told him that he sucks as a DM?
Mock26 07-05-07, 09:21 PM	True, but then again some level of power generally helps. Feats stacking too powerful? WTF? I mean, take that out and you'll run out of things to spend you Fighter feats on! Guh. Even if it is an apocraphal tale - and I'm not convinced is necessarily is - that level of Stupid just reduced the universe's average intelligence. And seriously, from the sounds of the first encounter, the DM is just having a "you're crap and I'm god" problem. What is he, five? My personal recommendation would be Maximised Disintegrate. To the bowels. From the inside out. Fifty-seven times. Heck, if Aotrs regulations didn't specifically forbid me from doing so, I'd hunt him down myself! What are you, five? :D
Caelic 07-05-07, 09:26 PM	Aaah. It makes sense now. This is a DM who came up with one encounter--and one encounter only. He's never been able to come up with a second one. Therefore, he sets up the rules in such a way as to ensure that his "campaign" will never get past one encounter. :)
GrondGala 07-05-07, 09:28 PM	This DM is awesome. I wish to subscribe to his newsletter.
Dnarris 07-05-07, 09:31 PM	Aaah. It makes sense now. This is a DM who came up with one encounter--and one encounter only. He's never been able to come up with a second one. Therefore, he sets up the rules in such a way as to ensure that his "campaign" will never get past one encounter. :) Quite possibly since it seems his campaigns always fall apart after that. He basically used the same routine too....used entangle on the party, used heat metal on anyone wearing metal armor or carrying a metal weapon, then cast spike growth in the area where everyone was entangled and if anyone got loose he'd entangle them again. I didn't believe that he was dominating players just because he found enjoyment, but after hearing that he did this again with another group...I don't doubt it that he does.
Salla 07-06-07, 12:24 AM	Hahaha.... I had to bring back this post, because evidently my former DM ran a special 4th of July session at the local rec center for some random people and one my friends from a meet up group was in it sent me an e-mail about it. He told me the DM let all the players start out at level 4. He forbid casters, half-orcs, and gnomes. Gave all the players +1 weapon and 1 wonderous item that was 2200g or less. (This was more than he ever gave us). He set the four level 4 players against 10 wolves and the same level 9 druid that we fought. He slaughtered the entire party and then evidently said to the party "Funny how one level 9 druid can screw over an entire party." I guess he didn't learn anything when we all quit his group. I have only one thing to say to this so-called DM ... YOU ARE A http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/tard.jpg
aotrscommander 07-06-07, 06:25 AM	What are you, five? :D No, just really petty. You should see what I do to people who slightly irritate me... And I just prefer my own excessively violent solution to the hammergun (mainly 'cos I don't have one, but I have Maximised Disintegrate to hand.) Plus, with that level of Stupid (considering the OP's last post), it's a mercy killing. And, the whole over-the-top over-reaction is a mandatory part of being Evil...
Steely_Dan 07-06-07, 06:43 AM	And that arcane casters aren't allowed because they are too powerful! I like that idea. I'm going to go one further in my next campaign, and exclude all full casting/manifesting classes such as wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, psion, arcanist, favoured soul, wu-jen, wilder, beguiler etc. But I will include the bard, psychic warrior, incarnate, binder, warlock, truenamer, totemist, dragonfire adept, dragon shaman, duskblade etc.
GrondGala 07-06-07, 08:36 AM	I like that idea. I'm going to go one further in my next campaign, and exclude all full casting/manifesting classes such as wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, psion, arcanist, favoured soul, wu-jen, wilder, beguiler etc. But I will include the bard, psychic warrior, incarnate, binder, warlock, truenamer, totemist, dragonfire adept, dragon shaman, duskblade etc. Oooh, oooh! Can I play a Hexblade?
GrondGala 07-06-07, 08:37 AM	Powerplayers... The worst kind of player a DM can face. They make the game pretty boring for the DM. Unimaginative, sucktacular DM's... The worst kind of DM a player can face.
kelvinaw273 07-06-07, 08:46 AM	There was this guy. Storm... storm something. Stormblow Galewind or something like that. I think he had some logic puzzle or fallacy or something related to this. At least I think so. I read it on the internet somewhere. It was something about optimizing players and roleplaying not being related. But I really don't know anything about it. You should ask him. In fact, I think I might have seen him on the way to posting this. You should have read Forfeit's post properly before you invoked Stormwind. He said 'Instead of' not 'as well as' making the implication that the hypothetical player in question was vastly more interested in gaining power using the game mechanics than they were in role-playing the character. He also made the clear and specific statement that this was a case for his game group only, and that he had no objection to players doing this elsewhere, nor did he at any point state that said hypothetical player was necessarily bad at role-playing, merely that they would likely not fit in with his group. Remember, while the Stormwind Fallacy demonstrates that a game-mechanically skilled player who utilizes said mechanics to ensure their character is more powerful than the CR system assumes them to be for their level is not necessarily a poor role-player, it like wise makes no assurances that they are a good role-player.
Steely_Dan 07-06-07, 08:50 AM	Oooh, oooh! Can I play a Hexblade? Sure, and I would recommend the familiar substitute ability in PHB II.
Mock26 07-06-07, 01:22 PM	There was this guy. Storm... storm something. Stormblow Galewind or something like that. I think he had some logic puzzle or fallacy or something related to this. At least I think so. I read it on the internet somewhere. It was something about optimizing players and roleplaying not being related. But I really don't know anything about it. You should ask him. In fact, I think I might have seen him on the way to posting this. [sarcasm filter off] But sometimes optimizing players and roleplayers are related, just like there ARE times when the game can be described as being between rollplayers and roleplayers. SOMETIMES.
Leo 07-06-07, 01:36 PM	Everybody is an optimizer. Thanks to the current definition of optimization the fallaccy guys wrote, it's impossible to don't optimize when making a character, and it's impossible to classiffy it as good or bad or whatever.
Bozwevial 07-06-07, 02:56 PM	Seriously, under that definition, the rogue that takes ranks in Hide and Move Silently is optimizing because that lets him get sneak attacks more often. And so is the sorcerer who puts ranks in Concentration because now he doesn't have to stand 50 feet away from anything hostile before utilizing his primary class feature. Now, your DM seems to have only seen the kind of optimizations that reference at least half a dozen sourcebooks in one round. Those are generally the kind of things that are annoying to set up for everyone and slow the game to a crawl (ignoring the obvious power issues). But banning any combination of feats that works together? That's going too far. A large portion of your power as a character is finding what combinations work using trial and error, and utilizing them, but not abusing them. Abuse is being able to deal over a thousand points of damage in one round. It is not taking the Stealthy and Skill Focus: Hide feats. So your DM's idea of fun consists of banning arcane spellcasters and pretty much anything that would bring your character's abilities up to standard, then throwing four level 3 characters against a 9th level druid and eight wolves? If you haven't left the group already, do so, or at least tell him that playing underpowered characters being overwhelmed by challenges way beyond their abilities is not fun in the slightest. Because when you come down to it, DnD is about fun. Show the guy this thread and let him see how many people think he's going a little too far in his attempt to Smite Optimization.
koiulpoi 07-06-07, 03:12 PM	You should have read Forfeit's post properly before you invoked Stormwind. He said 'Instead of' not 'as well as' making the implication that the hypothetical player in question was vastly more interested in gaining power using the game mechanics than they were in role-playing the character. He also made the clear and specific statement that this was a case for his game group only, and that he had no objection to players doing this elsewhere, nor did he at any point state that said hypothetical player was necessarily bad at role-playing, merely that they would likely not fit in with his group. Remember, while the Stormwind Fallacy demonstrates that a game-mechanically skilled player who utilizes said mechanics to ensure their character is more powerful than the CR system assumes them to be for their level is not necessarily a poor role-player, it like wise makes no assurances that they are a good role-player. 1) Pretty sure he was exaggerating to make an example. 2) I "invoked stormwind" because he indirectly said "Since he spent so much time twinking out his character, there's no way he can roleplay well", which is false. Roleplaying isn't only backstories and personalities - it's playing the game as your character. I know people who can write pages of backstory and flesh out their character completely but are terrible roleplayers. I also know people who can pick up an example character out of a book and roleplay them perfectly, even having never seen their statblock before. Some of the most believable characters I've ever seen played were developed as the game went on, not before. Yes, I perfectly understand that there are people who are bad roleplayers and great optimizers. Sure. I also know people who can spend 6 hours optimizing, spending zero on backstory and motivation and still never fall out of character and be perfectly believable. But, the grandfater's post indirectly said this kind of person isn't welcome in his game. So, maybe Stormwind wasn't the best thing to invoke. But, it got my point across, and still was mostly correct. And yes, he did imply that player would not fit into the group because he would be a bad roleplayer. I won't split semantics with you, but it was strongly implied that he wouldn't fit in because the character in question wasn't a strong roleplayer. Yes, he said "my group". Big deal. All that says is "we play low-optimization, high-roleplaying."
Max_Graeves 07-06-07, 07:26 PM	To the OP: Either the DM sucks, or you're full of sh!t...either way, makes for an amusing read. :P
ProZocK 07-07-07, 06:07 AM	You know, he should probably ban dices too... Sometimes my d8 rolls a 8! gasp! So overpowered!