Post/Author/DateTime	Post
9mm of Mercy 01-16-06, 12:16 AM	I'm contemplating taking an Item Creation feat or two with my Wizard. I'm level 2 right now but I'm just looking at the option available. I like the ability to get items for cheap and the customization available is really nice but I'm a little stuck on the experience cost though. I'm just not sure that the creation of items is worth it in the long run. What are your guys' experiences with Item Creation? Do you find yourselves falling behind and are the items and extra gold worth it?
KDowns86 01-16-06, 12:25 AM	it depends on your setting and the availability of magic items provided to you. Its buff/support that you provide yourself and your companions in return for xp, the xp costs really arent all that much once you get above like 5th level and you cant create anything till your like that level anyway so I dunno it really depends on the campaign setting i think, in the one i am playing now magic isnt really public so itam creation feats were necessary to keep me and the rest of my party in situations where we could be succesful against monsters with DR and such. So i didnt really answer any questions but just throwin ideas out there, if you have an actual party there is no falling behind you play together and protect the weaker members, wizards should always be protected.
RedWizard 01-16-06, 11:59 AM	Item creation can be very nice in aiding to the Utility of your spellcaster to the party. Without items to supplement your casting, your range will be limited as you are forced to choose between spells that help the party in combat and spells that act in the other situations. You just don't have enough slots to meet both situations with any depth. Thus you can create a wand of magic missile or scorching ray which will allow for that bit of combat casting while saving slots for spells like knock, Tenser's Floating disk and continual flame. As Homer Simpson would say, "You've just doubled your efficiency."
Elbethamore 01-16-06, 02:01 PM	Thus you can create a wand of magic missile or scorching ray which will allow for that bit of combat casting while saving slots for spells like knock, Tenser's Floating disk and continual flame. The conventional wisdom is just the opposite. Create scrolls and the like for Knock, Tenser's Floating Disk, etc, and use your spell slots for combat effects. The reason for this is you can be relatively certain you are going to use those combat spells while you're adventuring, but you could go several days without needing to use Knock. If you let it take up a spell slot every day, you are burning up a scroll, or a charge on a wand, or whatever, while a spell slot is doing nothing. And spell slots are free, whereas your items are not. To the OP, the expenditures aren't so bad. Just be effecient in the items create. Create the items that are going to give you the most use and versatility.
RedWizard 01-16-06, 02:50 PM	I see your point, so long as only scrolls were used for the utility spells.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 03:27 PM	it depends on your setting and the availability of magic items provided to you. No it doesn't. If the DM is stupid enough to use standard CRs in a low magic world (ie., not the usual 3.5 DnD world), and then blames you for a TPK, I suggest you find another DM because this one's a moron. Item Creation is when you want to make something not in the DMG or PHB or just want to plain customise stuff (eg., that Bow+1 of Icky Doom). If you are doing it to offset DM incompentence, you are fighting a losing battle.
Baboon_King_Zabimaru 01-16-06, 03:41 PM	I enjoy item creation. Mainly because it allows me to possess magic items that *I* want, not what a random roll of dice, a DM's decision, or some crappy module decide I should have. I swear, our group finds cloaks of resistance all the time... I have two extra's in case something happens to my main...
ressurrector 01-16-06, 04:00 PM	It's especially handy for players whose DMs who like to think about where the items come from, you can't just buy/find exactly what you want in a realistic setting, even if it is medium to high magic. The main downside of item creation isn't the xp, it's the time, especially at higher levels when you may have to craft an item for months to finish it. A high level item creation mage is constantly in down time, whereas all the fighter needs is a couple days to heal up then he's back out punching dragons. Thankfully, the Eberron setting introduced a homunculus that can finish the crafting for you, so you can adventure then come back in a year to grab your new +5 quarterstaff of uberness.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 04:20 PM	It's especially handy for players whose DMs who like to think about where the items come from, you can't just buy/find exactly what you want in a realistic setting, even if it is medium to high magic. Realistically, when you have cash, there is nothing you can't buy. Realistically, if you want the Mona Lisa, and you ahve enough cash, you can have the Mona Lisa. Stolen if it comes to that. But you will have it. I find DMs that use that type of "logic" illogical.
ressurrector 01-16-06, 04:33 PM	Realistically, when you have cash, there is nothing you can't buy. Realistically, if you want the Mona Lisa, and you ahve enough cash, you can have the Mona Lisa. Stolen if it comes to that. But you will have it. I find DMs that use that type of "logic" illogical. Realistically, what if there is only one +3 Longbow (mighty comp +5) with shocking/impact/exit wounds and the person who has it likes it just fine? Seriously, magical items are not an unlimited quantity, and in some worlds some are more popular and common than others. Also, anything weird is unlikely to be made just for sale, it's more likely that the person who made it uses it themselves or someone close to them uses it. Also, it may be faster and cheaper to just have someone make something than to go and try and find one for sale. Example: my character wants wings of flying. It's not a very common magic item as most mages aren't high enough level to create it, an those that do prefer to use it themselves. The few that exist outside of this are in treasure, on corpses, or sitting somewhere as normal capes (they weren't identified). Seeing as I am unable to find this in a timely manner, I simply ask the mage to make one and pay him. [edit]Oh, and what if you want something totally weird, like a belt of +4str/+4con/+5 to poision saves/Improved bullrush ability? It's quite possible that no such item exists in the campaign world, even though it's possible to create.
RedWizard 01-16-06, 04:38 PM	Realistically, when you have cash, there is nothing you can't buy. So I can look into buying the British Crown Jewels for my wife's next birthday gift? I have a platinum card. Some items are just not for sale. Of course you can always try to steal them. Item creation might be simpler though.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 04:51 PM	So I can look into buying the British Crown Jewels for my wive's next birthday gift? I have a platinum card. Some items are just not for sale. Of course you can always try to steal them. Item creation might be simpler though. Tsk tsk tsk. In your haste to try and proven me wrong, try reading my post again. I believe I mentioned: "...Stolen if it comes to that..." Give it up, my dear. You got slapped in the other thread. It happens. Get over it.
RedWizard 01-16-06, 04:55 PM	I believe I mentioned: "...Stolen if it comes to that..." And I believe I mentioned it could be stolen. I must still be reeling from your "slap". Wait, no I'm not.
wrecan 01-16-06, 05:05 PM	Item Creation Feats are essential if: 1) Your wizard needs to make extra money to do all the things that sap a wizard of his cash, such as buying tons of scrolls, a Heward's Handy Haversack to hold them in, a Boccob's Blessed Book to avoid the 100 gp/spell level cost of transcribing spells into your book, etc. No class has as many necessary expeditures as a wizard. If your DM plays by the book, you will need an Item Creation Feat to make up for it. 2) Magic items are rare. If you are not always near a metropolis where pretty much any magic item can be found for a price, isn't it nice to know you can make one? 3) To keep up. Basically the RAW envisions a wizard with scroll cases and wands sticking out of every available pocket, just to keep him on par with other classes. Monks don't need stuff. Rogues can get by with a few potions and masterwork lockpick set. Clerics are set with a handful of potions, holy water and some magic armor. Fighters just upgrade their weapons. Wizards need scrolls, wands, rods, defensive magic, spellbooks, and a lot of other things. This takes planning and, if you don't have any Item Creation Feats, a lot of luck. Item Creation Feats take a lot of the luck out of it and in my opinion, are a lot more useful than most Metamagic Feats.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 05:10 PM	And I believe I mentioned it could be stolen. I must still be reeling from your "slap". Wait, no I'm not. Punch drunk. Definitely punch drunk. Says one thing one minute, and then the total opposite the next. Tsk tsk tsk.
JadeSpider9643 01-16-06, 05:56 PM	*cough cough* back in the world of "on-topic".... If the XP cost is what's bothering you, and if your Campign/DM allows for Unearthed Arcana, consider the Item Familiar feat, mere seconds after taking said feat you can have an instant 10% gain in your TOTAL XP, and a bonus 10% on all future XP, of course there penalties if you should lose your familiar, heafty penalties. But if your willing to take the risk, then it can definitly more than fuel most item crafting XP needs.
CryoSilver 01-16-06, 09:47 PM	Well, the XP isn't really that big; since really, you'd probably end up one or 2 leve;s behind the rest of the party at most, made up for by the fact that the wizard is somewhat more powerful than many other classes anyways. The real trouble starts when you take PrCs that don't grant full caster progression and, in addition to losing some XP to crafting, you lose several spellcasting levels due to the PrC. If needed, you could always go kill some random creatures for crafting XP: if you're level 12 or so, and you kill a CR 5 animal, that's 300 XP, which translates to 7,500 gp of crafting, which translates to 15,000 gp of market value item.
Jerrythehun 01-17-06, 12:46 AM	So I can look into buying the British Crown Jewels for my wife's next birthday gift? I have a platinum card. Some items are just not for sale. Of course you can always try to steal them. Item creation might be simpler though. Umm, actually yes. Many crown princes of Europe have sold and\or used state regalia as collateral for loans, which they then lost upon default. In addition, state regalia often undergo modification, adding jewels, subtracting them, etc. You may not be able to purchase a given piece at a given time, but rest assured at some point in the future they will be for sale.
Leukrythus 01-17-06, 07:34 AM	I'm contemplating taking an Item Creation feat or two with my Wizard. I'm level 2 right now but I'm just looking at the option available. I like the ability to get items for cheap and the customization available is really nice but I'm a little stuck on the experience cost though. I'm just not sure that the creation of items is worth it in the long run. What are your guys' experiences with Item Creation? Do you find yourselves falling behind and are the items and extra gold worth it? Item creation is no longer worth it. In fact there are precious few useful feats for the Wizard/Sorcerer.
MarkB 01-17-06, 08:33 AM	Well, the XP isn't really that big; since really, you'd probably end up one or 2 leve;s behind the rest of the party at most, made up for by the fact that the wizard is somewhat more powerful than many other classes anyways. The real trouble starts when you take PrCs that don't grant full caster progression and, in addition to losing some XP to crafting, you lose several spellcasting levels due to the PrC. Once you fall a level behind the rest of the party, you're earning more XP for every challenge in any case. Unless you're spending almost all your time crafting, that'll be enough to cover your crafting costs and let you creep back up to party average XP totals. If needed, you could always go kill some random creatures for crafting XP: if you're level 12 or so, and you kill a CR 5 animal, that's 300 XP, which translates to 7,500 gp of crafting, which translates to 15,000 gp of market value item. No, killing creatures doesn't earn you any XP whatsoever: Overcoming challenges does. If you deliberately go out and find something to kill just for the sake of killing it, then it wasn't a challenge you needed to overcome, and you get zilch XP for it.
Terjonwh 01-17-06, 11:20 AM	The conventional wisdom is just the opposite. Create scrolls and the like for Knock, Tenser's Floating Disk, etc, and use your spell slots for combat effects. The reason for this is you can be relatively certain you are going to use those combat spells while you're adventuring, but you could go several days without needing to use Knock. If you let it take up a spell slot every day, you are burning up a scroll, or a charge on a wand, or whatever, while a spell slot is doing nothing. And spell slots are free, whereas your items are not. To the OP, the expenditures aren't so bad. Just be effecient in the items create. Create the items that are going to give you the most use and versatility. But don't totally disregard a wand of MM or other combat spell. It can give staying power in long fights and works as a good reserve when not able to get the required rest to prepare spells.
Twisted Puppy 01-17-06, 12:41 PM	Item creation is no longer worth it. In fact there are precious few useful feats for the Wizard/Sorcerer. Depends on the viewpoint of the player and the character. I find the wizard just doesn't have enough feat slots (1 / 3 levels, bonus feat if human, and metamagic/item creation every 5th level) to take all the useful ones. I'm talking standard PHB here.
Epicfetus 01-17-06, 01:35 PM	Craft Scroll and Craft Wand, very useful (put "rany day" spells, like knock, etc., in scroll form, and if you find you're always memorizing and casting certain spells, like Bull's Strength or Magic Missile, wands are very useful. As for other items...depends on the availability of magic in your campaign. In lower magic or restricted economies, then item creation is good. If every city has wizards pouring their heart and soul into mass-producing magic, then item creation is not as useful. As for the availability of magic items...their not always on the market, and not everyone approves of stealing what they need, and even then, items can be cost-prohibitive (if you compare magical items to crown jewels and artwork, then remember: their is an extreme markup due to lack of availability...and since magfic items cost in the thousands in a good economy, imagine the insane markup if they need to be stolen). I've also noticed that this thread assumes capitalism and assosiates magic items with mundane items. Some DMs (myself included) view the sepnding of xp as somehow imparting a part of yourself into the item...it's not necessarilly a mass-produced effort. Magic isn't science...and magical items are not technology. Each one takes the same amount of effort as a prototype does in real life. Also, not everything can be bought and sold, especially in pre-captilist societies. Sure, Wizards have large expenses, but you could easilly have a world where Wizards cover those expenses as either professors (doing research for their institutions and teaching to cover costs and further the art, like modern science and engineering departments) or like artists and alchemists from the real world renaissance, who did research for a lord or prince in order to finance their own personal projects (and to eat, etc.). Both of these ideals make magical items not as common as you'd think being from a modern, capitalistic economy. That being said, if the Players need it that much, chances are it was made a lot for simmilar need-based situations, and if they can sell their magic, they can probably buy items other people have sold...and if it's that useful, they can likely find a seller (just ask your buyer, really). BUT, if it's something rare...you may have to make it yourself. and that's when item-creation is useful. Seriously though, if compare wizards to scientists, ask if your character is an experimentalist or a thearoist. if experimentalist, he'll want item creation, if theorist, he'll want metamagic.
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 03:22 PM	But don't totally disregard a wand of MM or other combat spell. It can give staying power in long fights and works as a good reserve when not able to get the required rest to prepare spells. We were discussing this yesterday at the table. We laughed our rears off at the thought of a poxy mage creeping in behind a Titan and go, "HAH! Got you!" *zap* Titan turns around, looks at the piddly 1d4+1 damage done, and then eradicates the mage with a Quickened Chain Lightning and Meteor Swarm. Sorry, wands and other consumables just don't do it for us...
phelanarcetus 01-17-06, 04:05 PM	Crafting feats can be very worthwhile. The first real limitation is time. If you are constantly busy adventuring, as soon as you defeat one planar invasion you have to rush off to face another, and so on... then it's not so useful because you don't get to use it. Just like if you had taken Silent Spell so you could cast while in a Silence field, and then never encountered one. Crafting feats give you one major thing. They let you get the items that you (and your party) want. Let's face it, when you battle high-level NPCs and take their magical gear, you're going to get a lot of weapons, a lot of cloaks of resistance, and so on. So you sell those, because you don't need any more cloaks of resistance. Now, unless you want completely generic items, everything will have to be custom made for you. Which means relying on an NPC to do it. (Every blacksmith my party has worked with has ended up undead, and we've had to kill them :weep: ) Making it yourself is much better. Scrolls, wands and staves are for all those "sometimes" spells that you need occasionally. A wand of magic missile is one of the exceptions, as this drastically increases your staying power at lower levels. But in general, you want to make items for these spells (mostly utility spells), to free up spell slots for the spells you always need. If you have other characters with lots of ranks in Use Magic Device, or you have characters who are not powerful spellcasters but do have useful spells on heir class lists (rangers, paladins, hexblades, all sorts of partial casters... multi-class characters with just one or two levels in a casting class, etc), these items grant versatility as well. Cleric makes a wand of Cure Light Wounds, and hands it to the ranger; now we have two people who can stabilize, provide low-level healing, and that's a good thing. Craft Arms & Armor makes your fighter-types happy, though it's of no direct use to most casters (to clerics, however, it is useful). Craft Wondrous Item allows you to produce all sorts of equipment. Make a slotted item that allows your meleer to Enlarge a couple of times a day, saving spell slots, meaning you never have to buy potions again, and so on. Make items that give you constant Death Ward effects, or protect you from possession the way Protection From Evil does. Depending on the NPCs around, you may be able to get all this without the crafting feats. Really it comes down to, in my opinion, whether you have more access to time, or more access to gold. For 24,000 gold, you can get a Belt of Death Ward. It will take 24 days for the NPC to craft it. But you can go out adventuring and come back to pick it up. Or, you can save 12,000 gold by crafting it yourself, and potentially get ahead of the wealth by level curve.
Terjonwh 01-17-06, 05:10 PM	We were discussing this yesterday at the table. We laughed our rears off at the thought of a poxy mage creeping in behind a Titan and go, "HAH! Got you!" *zap* Titan turns around, looks at the piddly 1d4+1 damage done, and then eradicates the mage with a Quickened Chain Lightning and Meteor Swarm. Sorry, wands and other consumables just don't do it for us... Well he could hit the titan with a chain lightning from a staff of evocation. But the wand of MM would still be good to have even at that level. It a much less much less of an investment and we are not talking about using for the groups major offensive power. We are talking about being able to do something rather than being useless. Our mage is out of spells either from lots of fighting, a big fight, not being able to rest enough or other reasons. His options are to play fighter and likely be killed, shoot is crossbow, or breaking out that MM wand. Option one results in no damage. Option two gives you 4.5 points of damage per round. It's really less because he won't be hitting that much. A wand of MM give you 17.5 points of damage per round (5D4+5 not 1D4+1 at the level you are proposing). 17.5 points a round is not much but it is much better than nothing and 3.9 times better than the crossbow. Over, let's say five rounds, our mage would do 87.5 points of damage. This could easily be the difference between the titan dying and everybody living or the titan killing your fighter one round before the party manages to drop him. A wand of lightning bolt would do 35 points per round but the you have to deal with saves and making sure you don’t hit your own people.
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 05:50 PM	A wand of MM give you 17.5 points of damage per round (5D4+5 not 1D4+1 at the level you are proposing). 17.5 points a round is not much but it is much better than nothing and 3.9 times better than the crossbow. Over, let's say five rounds, our mage would do 87.5 points of damage. This could easily be the difference between the titan dying and everybody living or the titan killing your fighter one round before the party manages to drop him. Umm.... No. Your MM wand will have to be HEIGHTENED to 9th level for that, making it the same cost as a Lightning Bolt wand Heightened to 9th Level (that will do 9d6 in a line rather than 5d4+5). A standard MM wand is 1 missile only. Wands don't scale with your level... Crafting wands for that level? No thanks. Too much time and XP cost.
ressurrector 01-17-06, 05:57 PM	Umm.... No. Your MM wand will have to be HEIGHTENED to 9th level for that, making it the same cost as a Lightning Bolt wand Heightened to 9th Level (that will do 9d6 in a line rather than 5d4+5). A standard MM wand is 1 missile only. Wands don't scale with your level... Crafting wands for that level? No thanks. Too much time and XP cost. WRONG! Heightening a spell only increases the DC, and spell level. To get that effect from a want of MM, you just set the caster level on it higher. Formula for wand cost: Spell lvl x Caster lvl x 175 (IIRC) A wand of Magic missile caster lvl 20, would cost 1x20x175 GP. A wand of Lightning bolt, caster lvl 20, would cost 3x20x175 GP (3x as much). Magic missle gains extra missiles from Caster level, heightening a magic missle is about the stupidest thing ever....
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 06:00 PM	WRONG! Heightening a spell only increases the DC, and spell level. To get that effect from a want of MM, you just set the caster level on it higher. Formula for wand cost: Spell lvl x Caster lvl x 175 (IIRC) A wand of Magic missile caster lvl 20, would cost 1x20x175 GP. A wand of Lightning bolt, caster lvl 20, would cost 3x20x175 GP (3x as much). Magic missle gains extra missiles from Caster level, heightening a magic missle is about the stupidest thing ever.... Dude, take a chill pill and relax. Not everyone speak PHB all the time.
ressurrector 01-17-06, 06:03 PM	Double Post
ressurrector 01-17-06, 06:04 PM	Dude, take a chill pill and relax. Not everyone speak PHB all the time. Sorry, but if you want to use an example to prove a point, it's nice that the example is correct. And really, if you don't even understand about how heighten spell works, you shouldn't be talking about how making an item that casts heightened spells sucks. Have you ever really looked at the mechanics of an item creation mage? If not you should before you argue for or against it.
Terjonwh 01-17-06, 06:09 PM	WRONG! A wand of Magic missile caster lvl 20, would cost 1x20x175 GP. A wand of Lightning bolt, caster lvl 20, would cost 3x20x175 GP (3x as much). He could also opt to create it at a lower power level than he is, if there is no further benefit for the extra levels as an example.
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 06:24 PM	Sorry, but if you want to use an example to prove a point, it's nice that the example is correct. And really, if you don't even understand about how heighten spell works, you shouldn't be talking about how making an item that casts heightened spells sucks. Have you ever really looked at the mechanics of an item creation mage? If not you should before you argue for or against it. First, it was his example. Second, I used the word Heighten because I can think of no other single word equivalent to "increase caster level". That it is also a metamagic feat is irrelevant. As I said, not everyone speak PHB 24/7. I certainly don't. Third, I know the mechanics. I came up with the permanent Mage Armour and Shield item for 2k and 4k respectively by myself. Completely RAW guidelines. This was before I visited the CO boards and saw that someone else had already come up with it. Fourth, I have yet to come up for a good solid reason to be an item creation mage, unless you enjoy the headaches that accompany the "make x for me", "make y for me", "you are such a selfish bastard", etc. A good Dm will tailor items found so that they more or less will: a) suit his players (maybe not 100%, but at least no Kama of Uber Doom when there is no Monk in the party) b) equip his players for the challenges ahead (eg., at least a silver dagger when you know they are walking into lycanthropes, particularly if they didn't have the chance to get a silver weapon beforehand) As I said, if you are having to craft to make up for DM stingy-ness or DM-fiat, you are already fighting a losing battle. A DM of that type will just see all your shiny new items and decide that you got too much and clamp down even more.
MageofMyth 01-17-06, 06:53 PM	It often depends on what type of down time you have. I have played in games where the DM didn’t give us any downtime. As in every 24 hour period we were doing something, so no time to make anything. I have also played in games, with the same DM, where the characters had 4 months off every year for the snow season, giving lots of time to create things.
Leukrythus 01-17-06, 08:44 PM	Item creation is no longer worth it. In fact there are precious few useful feats for the Wizard/Sorcerer. Depends on the viewpoint of the player and the character. I find the wizard just doesn't have enough feat slots (1 / 3 levels, bonus feat if human, and metamagic/item creation every 5th level) to take all the useful ones. I'm talking standard PHB here. The Creation feats stink because they cost experience/levels. Think how bad it would be for fighters if they lost experience every time they used a combat related feat. The metamagic feats stink because they jack up the levels of spells, making them more difficult to cast. Especially for lower lever characters with average stats.
ressurrector 01-17-06, 09:03 PM	The payoff for minor items like wands/potions seems to be worth the gold/exp/time IMHO, though this depends on your playstyle. As far as metamagic spells, maximise and empower, as well as some from the Complete series are certainly worth taking and using.
Jerrythehun 01-17-06, 10:49 PM	First, it was his example. Third, I know the mechanics. I came up with the permanent Mage Armour and Shield item for 2k and 4k respectively by myself. Completely RAW guidelines. This was before I visited the CO boards and saw that someone else had already come up with it. This clearly against the RAW. The source of effects is meaningless, what counts is the end result. So, just as an item or weapon with True Strike counts as a +20, not as a 1st level spell effect. A +4 Armor bonus costs the same no matter how you get to it, unless it is from a scroll, wand, or staff. Spell trigger and spell completion items are different animals, as they can only be used by casters or UMD. I could not imagine an Optimizer making such a basic error.
Jaxgaret 01-17-06, 11:46 PM	*cough cough* back in the world of "on-topic".... If the XP cost is what's bothering you, and if your Campign/DM allows for Unearthed Arcana, consider the Item Familiar feat, mere seconds after taking said feat you can have an instant 10% gain in your TOTAL XP, and a bonus 10% on all future XP, of course there penalties if you should lose your familiar, heafty penalties. But if your willing to take the risk, then it can definitly more than fuel most item crafting XP needs. *cough cough* completely off-topic Jade Spider thank you very much for helping me out! I've been trying to figure out an easy way to incorporate item crafting into a campaign that doesn't implement XP gains; basically we just level at certain DM-decided intervals, because it's simpler. This Item Familiar feat would be perfect. Any character with it would simply get 10% XP to utilize for item creation. Thanks again =)
syntaxerror37 01-18-06, 03:30 AM	It really is campaign dependent. Best thing to do is talk to your DM about it. The xp cost isn’t really that big of a deal. If you do end up behind the level of your party you will gain XP at a greater rate. A solo mini-adventure for your caster could also replace some XP if you are seriously drained. I doubt the other players would mind this after you’ve pimped them out with custom magic gear. On the mater of "crafting takes to much time". The answer I have is: so? When your characters bed down for the night, do you stop play for the next 8 hours (9 if you have casters). No, the DM says "OK, the next day..." Crafting is just like that. If it takes you 24 days to craft something, the DM says "OK, 24 days later you have finished crafting (insert item here)". Now, I realize you may not have 24 days of game time to sit around crafting while you’re trying to save the day/world/multiverse. This is why it is best suited for down time in between adventures or story arcs, except for perhaps some low level “emergency” scrolls.
20goingon1232 01-18-06, 04:10 AM	This clearly against the RAW. The source of effects is meaningless, what counts is the end result. So, just as an item or weapon with True Strike counts as a +20, not as a 1st level spell effect. A +4 Armor bonus costs the same no matter how you get to it, unless it is from a scroll, wand, or staff. Spell trigger and spell completion items are different animals, as they can only be used by casters or UMD. I could not imagine an Optimizer making such a basic error. Incorrect. The guidelines are there. The line you are looking for calls for DM Rule 0 or DM fiat. There is not hard rule on basing stuff on effect. Try again.
Dragon Eye 01-18-06, 11:37 AM	Incorrect. The guidelines are there. The line you are looking for calls for DM Rule 0 or DM fiat. There is not hard rule on basing stuff on effect. Try again. You are correct, there is no "hard rule". However, there is this article by Skip Williams that addresses this very issue. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a (http://) The sidebar, Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values, on page 282 of the DMG also talks about this.
Lina_Inverse 01-18-06, 01:59 PM	In D&D 3rd edition you are your stuff. Gold and thus magic gear, is far more precious than the one level youll be behind. Espilly if you remember the exp gravy train.
20goingon1232 01-18-06, 02:13 PM	You are correct, there is no "hard rule". However, there is this article by Skip Williams that addresses this very issue. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a (http://) The sidebar, Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values, on page 282 of the DMG also talks about this. That sidebar was the "line" I was referring to. In the interest of the argument (which focuses on RAW), however, it is still contrary to what Jerry said. In his own words, I can't believe someone that opened his mouth so empathically can make "such a basic error."
tompulsar 01-18-06, 02:31 PM	Item creation feats? For a wizard? This one is a no brainer the answer is YES. Not only will you be able to make custom items but you will have a place of heightened importance within the party. The other players will be simply be handing over their character wealth right to you and you party can effectively double it's magical loot. The fact that you can make an item for yourself means that the DM will have to spend less time doing side shopping trips with the fighter and right after the (hastily advanced with a sentance or two) crafting time it's straight off to adventure once more. Still not convinced? Worried about the XP cost? It's really not that much of a hassle. Say you do find yourself accidentally lagging behind the party for a session or two, if your DM is following the rules that mean you get more XP per encounter than them and will catch up just as quickly. Plus look at it this way for every 1000 gp in the base price of something it take 40 XP to craft it. That's All: 40 XP. Yes I know this is compounded with every big ticket item you make but again you gain more XP from being a level behind so it DOES NOT MATTER. With the ability to craft items on demand you can gain god-like powers at half the price the trick is to pick the best ones. Craft Wonderous Item: Quite simple the best Item Creation feat. Craft Arms and Armor: The second best. Scribe Scroll: Not the best there is but at least it never becomes useless, plus you got it for free. Craft Wand: Only take this feat if your party has some people with a lot of ranks in UMD, otherwise it becomes rather useless later on. Craft Staff: Made remarably better by 3.5 now a feat worth having. Forge Ring: I'm not a fan of this one there is very little a ring can do that a Wonderous Item can't. The only reason I can think to take this is if you feel you must customize every magic item slot on your body. Craft Rod: Not a fan of this one either, can't say why though (shrugs) Craft Construct: Completely optional, take only if you like big beefy minions to boss around. Well anyhoo as you can see I'm a big fan of wizards who craft. Have a nice Day :D
ressurrector 01-18-06, 03:42 PM	If you're a wizard, get Crafting feats. If you're a sorcerer, get Metamagic feats. If you're an Artificier, get crafting for free, and get metamagic for the rest :D If your DM or the other players do not like your having to stop for crafting, get a crafter homunculus (forget actual name) out of the Eberron campaign setting, you can leave it in a guarded room to finish the crafting process, you only need to start it and come back later. Additionally, I am a big fan of constructs, specifically runic and shield guardians as these things rock. (fast healing, high dmg, spells anyone?)
9mm of Mercy 01-18-06, 04:47 PM	Thanks for all the feedback guys! After all those posts and my own reviewing of the rules I've decided that I can definately afford to spare at least a couple of feats for crafting. I was thinking about taking Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, and maybe Craft Construct. Since the discussion was heading this way anyway, which crafting feats do you find to be the most effective? And, on a side note, my DM is good with giving us lots of down time and can occasionally be a bit stingy with the money. But hell, I don't blame him, I DM too and I know how tempting it is to cut back on their gold.
tennesseefats 01-18-06, 05:18 PM	Since the discussion was heading this way anyway, which crafting feats do you find to be the most effective? I find the two most useful are Craft Wondrous Item and Scribe Scroll. Scrolls are great for spells rarely used; knock is perhaps the best example, but some of the others such as gust of wind, animate rope, stone shape, etc. are best utilized as a scroll. The rule of thumb I live by is this: If the caster level does not drastically affect a spell, it is best made into a scroll. Knock is the same if you are level 3 or level 30. Something like Fireball is best memorized in a spell slot; if you craft it as a scroll (or wand) the CL is frozen - a wand of fireball, caster level 6 is always 6d6; even if you are a tenth level caster. Better to have non-level dependant spells (or spells where the extra round per level or extra dice per level aren't as important) entombed at their creation level than ones that scale with your level. Now, CWI is just plain awesome. Want a higher ability score? Want to have multiple effects? Want to have effects not exactly duplicated by an existing spell? Want a bonus on that skill you're always using? Want a unique item? Then CWI is your honeybear. CWI allows you to create items that aren't spell repositories (which is what a scroll, wand or staff is), rather CWI lets you craft items that have properties and effects that, while maybe related to a spell, don't have the same restrictions that a spell might have (such as duration, range, etc.).
ressurrector 01-18-06, 06:23 PM	Craft Wonderous Item: Best item creation feat ever Craft Construct: good at high levels, not that great at low-mid levels (under 15) Craft Arms+Armor: Good if you want to help the rest of the party, especially if the DM allows enchantments from sourcebooks (some of them are kickin') Craft Wand: good at low-mid levels, nice for those low level spells that you keep using as you get higher leveled (knock, bulls streingth, CLW, Magic missle (at high caster level), etc...) Craft Staff: like craft wand, but better for higher leveled characters Brew Potion/Scribe scroll: good for low levels Craft Contingent Spell: totally awesome feat, specifically if you have access to clerical spells (revivify, Heal, Sanctuary) I think that covers the common/best feats.
grelna 01-18-06, 11:53 PM	One cautionary note: Craft Wand can be useful, but do not use it for combat spells with saves. Because the save DC vs wands (and all other non-staff items) is only 10+(lvl of spell)+(bonus of minimum stat to cast spell) and because wands only hold 1st-4th lvl spells, the maximum save DC vs. a wand, barring special materials, is only 16, for a 4th level spell (10+4+2). For a spell like Charm Person, the save DC would be only 11. There is a way around this, but it's not worth it unless you are a non-adventuring item crafter. You can take the Enhance Item feat, found on p.114 of the Epic Level Handbook (non-epic feat), to allow an item to apply your full stat modifier to save DCs, but as that feat only applies to a single class of magic items, it is much, much better to use spells with no save, such as the various Orb spells (no SR either!) or Magic Missile or Scorching Ray.
starfire311 01-19-06, 11:06 AM	This clearly against the RAW. The source of effects is meaningless, what counts is the end result. So, just as an item or weapon with True Strike counts as a +20, not as a 1st level spell effect. A +4 Armor bonus costs the same no matter how you get to it, unless it is from a scroll, wand, or staff. Spell trigger and spell completion items are different animals, as they can only be used by casters or UMD. I could not imagine an Optimizer making such a basic error. Incorrect. The guidelines are there. The line you are looking for calls for DM Rule 0 or DM fiat. There is not hard rule on basing stuff on effect. Try again. Actually I think you are both wrong, assuming you are using the table for etimating GP value of magic items. As the table says these are only estimates, for creating a magic item. In my opinion when pricing a magic item, look at the final product and what it does, if say it is a shirt that gives +4 shield bonus to AC, this would fall under the AC Bonus(other). Although 40Kgp seems a bit much for a slotted item that gives +4 shield bonus. However, you can also look at it as a countinous shield spell and thus it would only be 2kGP, this seems quit low, so, usign these 2 ways as an estimate, I would come up with something inbetween, actually I have already ruled that bonus squared times 1k GP is a fair price for a shield bonus. so an item that gives a +4 shield bonus would be worth IMO 16Kgp. There is no RAW for creating new items, just estimates and guidelines. The only RAW is for existing items in the DMG.