Item to buff concentration skill? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Item to buff concentration skill? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GrumpyM
09-12-07, 10:56 AM Hi all,

I'm playing a swordsage, and greatly enjoying it. I am seeing my concentration skill plays a huge role in this character - Greater Insightful strike is extremely powerful, as are all the "Use Concetration instead of xyz save" maneuvers.

My question is this - has anyone found a magic item (any slot) that buffs concentration skill in the same way as a ring of jumping/climbing/etc etc? Many items seem to give +10 or more to a skill, and level 1 spells seem to often give large bonuses at medium caster levels (see jump, +30 at CL 9th).

Does anyone know of any items that are of similar nature?

I don't think the +conc feat is really worth it (+2) and I've found some items that have small buffs (~+3) but nothing major.

I'm aware of the item creation rules, but since this is pretty min-maxing OI'd rather it came out of a book. :)

Can anyone help?

Thanks,
GrumpyM
Tempest Stormwind
09-12-07, 11:17 AM There's several; use the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting in the Magic Item Compendium as an example (it's *exactly* the same cost as a +5 Concentration item that takes up a body slot; from there you can extend it to a hypothetical Superior Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. It goes out of its way to say that despite the name it applies to all Concentration checks).

If Skill Focus: Concentration (+3) isn't worth it in your build, perhaps Wild Talent is. This grants you the psionic subtype, which lets you attain psionic focus. On its own, being focused doesn't let you do anything. However, if you're focused, you can expend your focus (that is, return to an unfocused state) to "take 15" on any Concentration check. (Wild Talent also lets you take psionic feats, several of which are freaking awesome for such a character. I'd consider Speed of Thought and Up the Walls in particular, or Mental Leap if you have a splash of Tiger Claw.)
GrumpyM
09-12-07, 01:14 PM Thanks for the response!

The shirt you suggest is definitely the best option I've heard (+5). I'll look it up when I get home (curious as to price, and what type of bonus it is). It's too bad there isn't a +30 item (like the rod of escape gives +30 to jump 3x per day) ... but +5 is still good. When combined with skill focus, and maybe some of the other cheaper items I saw (that give +2, +3 type things) maybe it can work if the bonuses are typed correctly.

As for the Wild Talent ... although it sounds awesome, that's probably getting a little more min-maxxy than our current campaign would support.

Thanks for the tip though.

The reason I'm asking is that Greater Insightful Strike scales extremely well with concentration. a +10 to concentration (which didn't seem that crazy) nets you a +20 damage on this maneuver, which is the equivalent of something like +6d6! If I could find a +30 ... well it gets pretty crazy. :)
Tempest Stormwind
09-12-07, 03:33 PM Thanks for the response!

The shirt you suggest is definitely the best option I've heard (+5). I'll look it up when I get home (curious as to price, and what type of bonus it is). It's too bad there isn't a +30 item (like the rod of escape gives +30 to jump 3x per day) ... but +5 is still good. When combined with skill focus, and maybe some of the other cheaper items I saw (that give +2, +3 type things) maybe it can work if the bonuses are typed correctly.

There are +30 items. They just don't show up in the books. Note how the shirt is a low-CL item that PERFECTLY follows the formula? Just extrapolate.

As for the Wild Talent ... although it sounds awesome, that's probably getting a little more min-maxxy than our current campaign would support.

Bollocks. It's the ability to spend a full round action at one point to, later, take 15 on a concentration check ONCE. How is that min-maxy?

Furthermore, Diamond Mind itself *already* has the same flavor as psionics. If you're using Diamond Mind, Wild Talent quite literally can become something with a name like "Finding the Center" where you center yourself (read: Gain psionic focus). Did you read this (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)? The description they give of Diamond Mind can, verbatim, be applied to psychic warriors. That thing about emptying the mind and body so much that you can balance on a lilypad? That is actually a psionic power (body equilibrium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyEquilibrium.htm)), for a start, although psionic feats can come pretty damn close (especially with options like the psychic acrobat).

In short, it's *exactly what you already do*, and not mechanically overpowering at all (especially since, without additional feats like Psychic Meditation, you can't reliably use it more than once per combat!). Synergy is NOT min-maxing. Hell, you're looking for ways to pimp your Concentration check for more damage; I fail to see how that could be construed as min-maxing while the ability to, once, treat a particular Concentration check as if you'd rolled 15 isn't.

Just think of it as a special maneuver that doesn't require any particular action to initiate, but can only be learned via Martial Study. It acts essentially the same way, especially since you regain psionic focus by meditating for a full round, and you recover a single maneuver... by meditating for a full round. Wow. So min-maxxy.

The reason I'm asking is that Greater Insightful Strike scales extremely well with concentration. a +10 to concentration (which didn't seem that crazy) nets you a +20 damage on this maneuver, which is the equivalent of something like +6d6! If I could find a +30 ... well it gets pretty crazy. :)

No, that's actually pretty bad. Especially since it replaces all of your other damage sources. If you *really* pimp your Concentration check -- in other words, really min/max it, which is what that +30 item is but what Wild Talent is NOT -- it can be useful, and if you don't have Power Attack it could be useful, but straight-up used against other choices available at those levels? Not so hot.

I'm a CO regular and I've done a lot of work on the warblade in particular (including actually crunching the numbers on their best maneuvers to clearly demonstrate a core-only barbarian does more damage than they do, factoring in actual monster statistics, attack bonuses, equipment, and so on). Where Insightful Strike comes in handy is if you're guaranteed to hit your target but not guaranteed to damage it (i.e. if you're ambushing a target with an improvised shiv), or if you can't draw upon bonus damage sources for whatever reason (i.e. you're using a light weapon and can't Power Attack with it).
PhaedrusXY
09-12-07, 03:57 PM The Third Eye of Concentrate gives you a +10 competence bonus to Concentration. It costs 10,000 gold, and is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's a Universal item, so anyone can use it.
Tedronai
09-12-07, 08:47 PM The Third Eye of Concentrate gives you a +10 competence bonus to Concentration. It costs 10,000 gold, and is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's a Universal item, so anyone can use it.

Also found in the Magic Item Compendium with item creation prerequisites available to core casters
GrumpyM
09-12-07, 10:42 PM Good points. When I got home I found the Third Eye as well, it looks like the best item I can find. Plus, a face slot is les useful than a torso slot (lots of other shirts I'd like).

I agree a fighter/barbarian can definitely do more damage, but they are nowhere near as flexible. It's one of the reasons I love the BoNS, because it adds so many options to melee characters.

For example, I have really buffed my jump skill with a Rod of Escape, which casts Jump as CL 9 (+30 jump) 3x per day. Thus, at 12 level, with this buff, I have a jump of +55 or so. Combined with the Sudden Leap maneuver, I can move 60-70 feet as a swift action at the beginning or end of my turn, ignoring terrain. :) I love little abilities like that.

I am finding Gr Insightful strike to be one of my best maneuvers. With the third eye item, I will have something like +30 concentration, and then with standard action attack (which I can buff with truestrike gauntlets potentially) I can hit for 2d20+60 damage. That's a fair bit. Alternatives are in the range of adding +10d6 to a standard attack, and my base bonuses (ie +str dmg, adding dex due to shadow blade feat, adding wis due to insightful strikes, and a stance bonus (+4 giant killing style), and weapon bonuses) are in the range of +20. So my attack, using Rabid Bear Strike would be something like 11d6+20 ... which is good ... but 2d20+60 is better. :) Especially if I was to go with the "take 15" method you described ... guaranteed 90 dmg, no save, spell resistance, etc. However, with this particular maneuver, I think the +3 from skill focus might almost be better ... the "take 15" wild talent suggestion adds +10 to the damage on average (average roll is 10, guaranteed 15 adds 5 and it's double your roll), and only once per encounter. Skill focus adds 6 to the attack every time you use it.

As a swordsage, I haven't found power attack especially useful - in fact, I don't even have it. I find the base attack bonus of the swordsage pretty low, and the ACs of the tough mobs we fight are pretty high. It's almost never worth it to me to sacrifice +attack for +dmg ... since with maneuvers the single attack is so powerful (with things like Gr Insightful Strike, and Rabid Bear Strike) I don't want to miss.

Great discussion though, thanks very much!
bobothechimp
09-12-07, 11:46 PM Magic item creation rules, if your DM allows them, are good for this.

You can buy an item that gives a competence bonus to a skill for a cost of the bonus squared × 100 gp.
GrumpyM
09-13-07, 01:08 PM One interesting thing, I notice a lot of items that give insight bonuses to skills (rather than competence bonuses). I couldn't find one for concentration ... but was able to find them for spot/search/sense motive/some others. I wish there was a better way of searching these books...
runestar
09-14-07, 03:16 AM Insight bonuses don't seem to mesh well with concentration thematically, IMO. How would knowing what the future brings help you concentrate better?:P
GrumpyM
09-14-07, 05:05 PM Insight just means deeper understanding, as I understand it. Not necessarily future pre-cognition. In fact, if someone has great insight (understanding), concentrating on something might be easier. :)

I dunno ... these arguments can go any way you want really. You might be right though, and that's why there are no +insight bonuses for concentration. :)
Bauglir
09-15-07, 03:58 PM THIS might be a bit min/max-y, but I think it's legit. A masterwork tool for Concentration. Call if a focus crystal or somesuch.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GrumpyM 09-12-07, 10:56 AM	Hi all, I'm playing a swordsage, and greatly enjoying it. I am seeing my concentration skill plays a huge role in this character - Greater Insightful strike is extremely powerful, as are all the "Use Concetration instead of xyz save" maneuvers. My question is this - has anyone found a magic item (any slot) that buffs concentration skill in the same way as a ring of jumping/climbing/etc etc? Many items seem to give +10 or more to a skill, and level 1 spells seem to often give large bonuses at medium caster levels (see jump, +30 at CL 9th). Does anyone know of any items that are of similar nature? I don't think the +conc feat is really worth it (+2) and I've found some items that have small buffs (~+3) but nothing major. I'm aware of the item creation rules, but since this is pretty min-maxing OI'd rather it came out of a book. :) Can anyone help? Thanks, GrumpyM
Tempest Stormwind 09-12-07, 11:17 AM	There's several; use the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting in the Magic Item Compendium as an example (it's exactly the same cost as a +5 Concentration item that takes up a body slot; from there you can extend it to a hypothetical Superior Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. It goes out of its way to say that despite the name it applies to all Concentration checks). If Skill Focus: Concentration (+3) isn't worth it in your build, perhaps Wild Talent is. This grants you the psionic subtype, which lets you attain psionic focus. On its own, being focused doesn't let you do anything. However, if you're focused, you can expend your focus (that is, return to an unfocused state) to "take 15" on any Concentration check. (Wild Talent also lets you take psionic feats, several of which are freaking awesome for such a character. I'd consider Speed of Thought and Up the Walls in particular, or Mental Leap if you have a splash of Tiger Claw.)
GrumpyM 09-12-07, 01:14 PM	Thanks for the response! The shirt you suggest is definitely the best option I've heard (+5). I'll look it up when I get home (curious as to price, and what type of bonus it is). It's too bad there isn't a +30 item (like the rod of escape gives +30 to jump 3x per day) ... but +5 is still good. When combined with skill focus, and maybe some of the other cheaper items I saw (that give +2, +3 type things) maybe it can work if the bonuses are typed correctly. As for the Wild Talent ... although it sounds awesome, that's probably getting a little more min-maxxy than our current campaign would support. Thanks for the tip though. The reason I'm asking is that Greater Insightful Strike scales extremely well with concentration. a +10 to concentration (which didn't seem that crazy) nets you a +20 damage on this maneuver, which is the equivalent of something like +6d6! If I could find a +30 ... well it gets pretty crazy. :)
Tempest Stormwind 09-12-07, 03:33 PM	Thanks for the response! The shirt you suggest is definitely the best option I've heard (+5). I'll look it up when I get home (curious as to price, and what type of bonus it is). It's too bad there isn't a +30 item (like the rod of escape gives +30 to jump 3x per day) ... but +5 is still good. When combined with skill focus, and maybe some of the other cheaper items I saw (that give +2, +3 type things) maybe it can work if the bonuses are typed correctly. There are +30 items. They just don't show up in the books. Note how the shirt is a low-CL item that PERFECTLY follows the formula? Just extrapolate. As for the Wild Talent ... although it sounds awesome, that's probably getting a little more min-maxxy than our current campaign would support. Bollocks. It's the ability to spend a full round action at one point to, later, take 15 on a concentration check ONCE. How is that min-maxy? Furthermore, Diamond Mind itself already has the same flavor as psionics. If you're using Diamond Mind, Wild Talent quite literally can become something with a name like "Finding the Center" where you center yourself (read: Gain psionic focus). Did you read this (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)? The description they give of Diamond Mind can, verbatim, be applied to psychic warriors. That thing about emptying the mind and body so much that you can balance on a lilypad? That is actually a psionic power (body equilibrium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyEquilibrium.htm)), for a start, although psionic feats can come pretty damn close (especially with options like the psychic acrobat). In short, it's exactly what you already do, and not mechanically overpowering at all (especially since, without additional feats like Psychic Meditation, you can't reliably use it more than once per combat!). Synergy is NOT min-maxing. Hell, you're looking for ways to pimp your Concentration check for more damage; I fail to see how that could be construed as min-maxing while the ability to, once, treat a particular Concentration check as if you'd rolled 15 isn't. Just think of it as a special maneuver that doesn't require any particular action to initiate, but can only be learned via Martial Study. It acts essentially the same way, especially since you regain psionic focus by meditating for a full round, and you recover a single maneuver... by meditating for a full round. Wow. So min-maxxy. The reason I'm asking is that Greater Insightful Strike scales extremely well with concentration. a +10 to concentration (which didn't seem that crazy) nets you a +20 damage on this maneuver, which is the equivalent of something like +6d6! If I could find a +30 ... well it gets pretty crazy. :) No, that's actually pretty bad. Especially since it replaces all of your other damage sources. If you really pimp your Concentration check -- in other words, really min/max it, which is what that +30 item is but what Wild Talent is NOT -- it can be useful, and if you don't have Power Attack it could be useful, but straight-up used against other choices available at those levels? Not so hot. I'm a CO regular and I've done a lot of work on the warblade in particular (including actually crunching the numbers on their best maneuvers to clearly demonstrate a core-only barbarian does more damage than they do, factoring in actual monster statistics, attack bonuses, equipment, and so on). Where Insightful Strike comes in handy is if you're guaranteed to hit your target but not guaranteed to damage it (i.e. if you're ambushing a target with an improvised shiv), or if you can't draw upon bonus damage sources for whatever reason (i.e. you're using a light weapon and can't Power Attack with it).
PhaedrusXY 09-12-07, 03:57 PM	The Third Eye of Concentrate gives you a +10 competence bonus to Concentration. It costs 10,000 gold, and is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's a Universal item, so anyone can use it.
Tedronai 09-12-07, 08:47 PM	The Third Eye of Concentrate gives you a +10 competence bonus to Concentration. It costs 10,000 gold, and is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's a Universal item, so anyone can use it. Also found in the Magic Item Compendium with item creation prerequisites available to core casters
GrumpyM 09-12-07, 10:42 PM	Good points. When I got home I found the Third Eye as well, it looks like the best item I can find. Plus, a face slot is les useful than a torso slot (lots of other shirts I'd like). I agree a fighter/barbarian can definitely do more damage, but they are nowhere near as flexible. It's one of the reasons I love the BoNS, because it adds so many options to melee characters. For example, I have really buffed my jump skill with a Rod of Escape, which casts Jump as CL 9 (+30 jump) 3x per day. Thus, at 12 level, with this buff, I have a jump of +55 or so. Combined with the Sudden Leap maneuver, I can move 60-70 feet as a swift action at the beginning or end of my turn, ignoring terrain. :) I love little abilities like that. I am finding Gr Insightful strike to be one of my best maneuvers. With the third eye item, I will have something like +30 concentration, and then with standard action attack (which I can buff with truestrike gauntlets potentially) I can hit for 2d20+60 damage. That's a fair bit. Alternatives are in the range of adding +10d6 to a standard attack, and my base bonuses (ie +str dmg, adding dex due to shadow blade feat, adding wis due to insightful strikes, and a stance bonus (+4 giant killing style), and weapon bonuses) are in the range of +20. So my attack, using Rabid Bear Strike would be something like 11d6+20 ... which is good ... but 2d20+60 is better. :) Especially if I was to go with the "take 15" method you described ... guaranteed 90 dmg, no save, spell resistance, etc. However, with this particular maneuver, I think the +3 from skill focus might almost be better ... the "take 15" wild talent suggestion adds +10 to the damage on average (average roll is 10, guaranteed 15 adds 5 and it's double your roll), and only once per encounter. Skill focus adds 6 to the attack every time you use it. As a swordsage, I haven't found power attack especially useful - in fact, I don't even have it. I find the base attack bonus of the swordsage pretty low, and the ACs of the tough mobs we fight are pretty high. It's almost never worth it to me to sacrifice +attack for +dmg ... since with maneuvers the single attack is so powerful (with things like Gr Insightful Strike, and Rabid Bear Strike) I don't want to miss. Great discussion though, thanks very much!
bobothechimp 09-12-07, 11:46 PM	Magic item creation rules, if your DM allows them, are good for this. You can buy an item that gives a competence bonus to a skill for a cost of the bonus squared × 100 gp.
GrumpyM 09-13-07, 01:08 PM	One interesting thing, I notice a lot of items that give insight bonuses to skills (rather than competence bonuses). I couldn't find one for concentration ... but was able to find them for spot/search/sense motive/some others. I wish there was a better way of searching these books...
runestar 09-14-07, 03:16 AM	Insight bonuses don't seem to mesh well with concentration thematically, IMO. How would knowing what the future brings help you concentrate better?:P
GrumpyM 09-14-07, 05:05 PM	Insight just means deeper understanding, as I understand it. Not necessarily future pre-cognition. In fact, if someone has great insight (understanding), concentrating on something might be easier. :) I dunno ... these arguments can go any way you want really. You might be right though, and that's why there are no +insight bonuses for concentration. :)
Bauglir 09-15-07, 03:58 PM	THIS might be a bit min/max-y, but I think it's legit. A masterwork tool for Concentration. Call if a focus crystal or somesuch.