Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 03-09-04, 08:36 PM	*sigh* I'm currently in a game that is helping newbies get introduced to the game. We've got me the experienced player (team leader), a couple of players that have some experience playing, and a couple of completely green newbs. The moderatly experienced players are doing great. Lots of nice roleplaying, not doing anything stupid, looks like they're going to be lots of fun to play with. Then there's one of the newbs. He's playing a "wizard from south africa", despite the fact there is no Africa in D&D. Okay, no biggie, new player, at least he's TRYING to have a background. But, he's already expressed that he thinks the way to play diplomatically is "fireball, fireball, threaten to cast again". We also have just come across a group of goblinoids (couple goblins, an orc, etc). Trying to lead by example, I have my character actually greet the group instead of just mindlessly attacking them. Wizard's first comment was "Why didn't you just wait until most of them were asleep and then slit their throats"? He also doesn't seem to see the point in doing anything but killing opponents instead of trying to reason your way out of an encounter. We have another new player that isn't quite as bad, but still no prize. He's a ranger. In Half-Plate. He also just advertised a game he's running where "You don't have to worry with rolling dice, I do that for you. You can adventure, explore, or just wander around and kill peasants and stuff". Its an online game (so we haven't finished this goblinoid encounter yet), but I fear its going to be one of those games... Anybody have some advice on how to help guide these guys into being productive players? You know, so I don't snap and bite their heads off when one of them decides to just go around and CdG orc babies?
Veton 03-09-04, 09:37 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Then there's one of the newbs. He's playing a "wizard from south africa", despite the fact there is no Africa in D&D. Okay, no biggie, new player, at least he's TRYING to have a background. Maybe his character calls his homeland "Africa?" But, he's already expressed that he thinks the way to play diplomatically is "fireball, fireball, threaten to cast again". We also have just come across a group of goblinoids (couple goblins, an orc, etc). Trying to lead by example, I have my character actually greet the group instead of just mindlessly attacking them. Wizard's first comment was "Why didn't you just wait until most of them were asleep and then slit their throats"? He also doesn't seem to see the point in doing anything but killing opponents instead of trying to reason your way out of an encounter. What class are you? If you're a Paladin, you could respond with something like, "It's against my code of honor." You could also hint that you'll be watching him in case he tries anything. Eventually he'll realize that you don't want to kill everything as a solution. We have another new player that isn't quite as bad, but still no prize. He's a ranger. In Half-Plate. There's a new player in my group who plays his Barbarian with armor heavy enough to stop him from getting the +10 speed bonus. I'd say give it some time. When he realizes he's not getting many of his class abilites, he'll drop the half-plate. He also just advertised a game he's running where "You don't have to worry with rolling dice, I do that for you. You can adventure, explore, or just wander around and kill peasants and stuff". Well, that's his game, I suppose. Anybody have some advice on how to help guide these guys into being productive players? You know, so I don't snap and bite their heads off when one of them decides to just go around and CdG orc babies? If the DM agrees, you could have a "trial" session. Oh, you just killed that goblin prisoner? Too bad he had the information you needed to be able to succeed on the mission. Fireballed the entire camp of them? Boy, those tribes who would have been friendlier, but now that they've heard of what you do, good luck on being able to even talk to them! On an off-topic note, might I ask where you roleplay on-line? I'm looking for something like that.
Eldren 03-09-04, 09:39 PM	I don't know if it's a symptom of role playing games in general, Edymnion, or of Dungeons & Dragons specifically, but despite our best intentions, newbies tend to love combat. It's a power trip for them. Hopefully they outgrow it. I know that when I started really playing seriously, back around 7th grade (we played around with concepts beforehand, those we knew about, since we didn't actually own any of the books), I loved combat. While I have a lot more background for my PCs now, and spend ranks in skills that aren't directly combat-applicable, I still notice that when I play arcane casters, they tend to be quite heavy on the combat spells, and my current highest-level character, a Paladin on the verge of 14th level (she's going into Knight of the Chalice at 15th level), is a combat machine. She can manage to do positively nasty things against evil outsiders, and even moreso now that she's often casting Fell the Greatest Foe, a 3rd level Paladin spell from the Draconomicon. Give them time to get their feet wet; they're going to want to waste things for awhile, and let them have their fun doing it. If they show the potential to be in this for the long haul, they'll eventually start wanting more from their characters, and at that time they'll start paying closer attention to things like alignment, support classes like the Bard, and choosing spells for their Sorceror that doesn't have an immediate damage potential. But it's going to take time. The first characters are always combat-happy. It often reaches a point where they either grow bored with games that aren't combat-oriented, and leave, or they decide to start their own games. Or sometimes they just receive a stern talking-to by someone else in the game, and they hopefully change their behavior patterns. If I were you, if you're the one running the campaign, I would let them realize that their actions have consequences. If their PC is known for blasting everything that comes into their path, don't attempt to stop them, but let them realize that word is going to get out that they're a loose cannon, and others who meet them for the first time and recognize them are going to respond accordingly, figuring that, as they say on Wall Street, "past performance is an indication of future possibilities." If nothing else, it'll cause them to at least start putting some ranks into Disguise so they can traverse the land without being recognized. If you want a good template for how to deal with a character constantly persecuted, I recommend reading the first two books from the Chronicles of Shandril ("Spellfire" and "Crown of Fire"). She got hounded relentlessly by the Zhentarim until she finally laid enough smack down on them that they decided to look elsewhere. The primary difference is that this evocation-happy character is going to be persecuted because of their behavior, not because they have a power everyone else wants. Once they realize there are very definite consequences to their inacceptable behavior, they're hopefully going to seek ways to make amends, or at least not behave that way in the future, so they can avoid extraplanar attention once it's realized they can handle most things the Material Plane throws at them. And sometimes just having their PC obliterated by something like Disintegrate or Destruction is the only thing that's going to knock some sense into them. It's a last resort, but if it happens, be sure to explain to them why it happened, so they might hopefully approach their next character from a different (and hopefully somewhat more conciliatory) perspective...
Edymnion 03-09-04, 10:28 PM	Originally posted by Veton On an off-topic note, might I ask where you roleplay on-line? I'm looking for something like that. Roleplay Online. Check my sig for the link. And no, I'm not the DM in this one, or I would so be setting up scenarios where drawing your weapon would end up screwing them over. I just have almost always played with... more mature players, so this is definatly a new experience.
Bacon and Eggs 03-09-04, 11:23 PM	Ouch. Well, yeah, being a DM in this case, sure backfire works great. As in combat will result in the least desireable outcome. Seems you have that side of the fence all figured out. But as a player, I don't know. I'd just say try to enjoy it. They are not going to be new forever. I'd suppose dispensing the wisdom may help as in list out the possible outcomes for outlandish behaviour. But then again, if it's not really of consequence in the game (arbitrated by whomever the DM is) you just have to ride it out. Of all the memories I have of role playing most of the burned in ones are of those ideas suggested by the freshly played. And yes, I do look BACK on them fondly, but not so much at the time.
Tehril 03-09-04, 11:34 PM	newbies tend to love combat As an added note, experienced players playing with experienced DM's tend to fear it! My buddy: Ya, after defeating the Green Dragon I think it's time for me to hang up my sword and take up farming. Last session, my DM sprang an adult green dragon on a party of 5 players with levels ranging from 5-7. Let me tell you, despite being the guy that dropped 70+ points of damage into it over 3 rounds and landing the killing blow... my first instinct was still to RUN!!! (and run FAST!!!...note, no Fear effect. Just PLAYER fear effects!!!) Once the newbies learn that combat is actually a VERY dangerous thing for their characters to be...they start to treat it a little differently. I say have the DM throw something at you that combat alone will not solve. Not everything in the world can be solved through violence or threat of violence... it's a good method of reminding newbies that there is more to D&D than swords and sorcery ;) As a matter of fact... D&D's namesake, the almighty Dragon, might well be a good tool to remind newbies of where their characters really stand in the grand scheme of things...for a while, at least!
Wizard 03-10-04, 01:13 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Wizard's first comment was "Why didn't you just wait until most of them were asleep and then slit their throats"? He also doesn't seem to see the point in doing anything but killing opponents instead of trying to reason your way out of an encounter. I resent that capitalization, by the way. Folks, this is not me. Tsk tsk, Edy...should have joined that game over on my forum...:rolleyes: :angel: Normally I'm a big fan of natural consequences---yes, I know, you're a player, but there are still things you can do---but in this case, you're trying to turn them into productive players. 1) If you can parlay your "experienced" status into a little favor with the DM, you might be able to get him to start handing you some extra xp for "peaceful resolutions and the avoidance of loss of life." Make sure he labels it as such, and puts it in a big font. :) If mechanics is what the newbs want, that can be arranged. They'll notice, trust me. 2) If the DM can't or won't do the above, use your character. I'm sure that you can think of ways to incapacitate another PC(especially run by a newb) without actually harming them, regardless of YOUR class. Check out the beginning of "Addicted to Fireball" for methods of doing this. I believe Cloudstrife has a copy.
Aucturos 03-10-04, 01:24 AM	Confer with your DM... Perhaps he can make one of those "lose or run away" situations. You know, you fight the CR 13 monster when you're lvl 5... It's painfully *obvious* that you talk with it, but if the newbies try to attack it, the thing deals with them painlessly and quickly. Also, perhaps your character could still lead as the good example and roleplay more than battle? Exactly like when you approached the goblinoids instead of blowing them up. Perhaps talk with your DM to arrange something to the tune of "I have a friend, a strange friend I need to meet in the next town over. Please, all of you be kind and respectful." If your friend with the info you need turns out to be a 'goblinoid' and the newbs attack first and kill him, your character has a very, VERY good reason to berate them. "You fool, he had the information we needed to rescue the princess! Should you ever draw your sword in haste again, I will make sure it's your last!"
Dan-STC 03-10-04, 04:03 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion We have another new player that isn't quite as bad, but still no prize. He's a ranger. In Half-Plate. Aside from the fact that many of his skills are nullified buy such heavy armor, does he know that rangers lose their combat style mastery feats if they wear anything above light armor? (For that matter, did he even take the armor prof to wear the damn thing properly?) He should be playing a fighter, not a ranger. At least that way he won't lose his bonus feats. He also just advertised a game he's running where "You don't have to worry with rolling dice, I do that for you. You can adventure, explore, or just wander around and kill peasants and stuff". That's newbie GM speak for "I really have no clue how to run a game with any sort of a point to it, so I'm going to let my players basically run it for me...I'll just roll the dice and pretend I'm doing something useful."
SnowbearK 03-10-04, 05:47 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Anybody have some advice on how to help guide these guys into being productive players? You know, so I don't snap and bite their heads off when one of them decides to just go around and CdG orc babies? Have them roll up 1st edition characters and send them to Acerak's Tomb. That'll fix the problem real quick, one way or another.
Asta Kask 03-10-04, 06:46 AM	It's not a specific problem with D&D. ALL newbie players are like that. OR they are completely roleplayers who'll faint when they're asked to roll a dice. OR they are completely disinterested and there because their S.O. is there. Newbies are newbies. That's what makes it fun to play with them - you get to relive the olden days, when an orc was an orc, not a CR1 creature with stats you can quote if someone woke you up in the middle of the night.,
Pumpoei 03-10-04, 08:41 AM	Most of the advice you've recieved has been of the "influence the DM" variety, so I'm going to obstain from making any similiar suggestions. Obviously, killing their characters would paint you the bad guy, and not help them learn. My first DnD character was a "drow who uses a katana and wakizashi and is really evil." Even after playing other systems for years, I still made a lame, hacky character. It's just a new player thing. These guys don't seem even as bad as that; mabye that means they'll grow into better players than I am now. All that said, heres, IMHO the best way to help things, even presuming significant DM leverage. It's hard. The way I see it you have two options. You could #2 if #1 fails I reckon, but #2 is more likely to work. Both involve being super duper nice: You won't get anywhere with confrontation. 1. Draw them into roleplay with curiosity. Paint your character as thoughtful and real. Give him nocturnal hobbies other than collecting firewood and making dinner. Have him tell stories around the campfire, and lay on the description about how your sitting, how your clothes look; go for gritty to avoid sounding vain. Mabye you keep putting your hand in a little pounch and squeeze something inside. The players/characters (probably identical) will have to know what it is; tease them with it, and with secrets in general. Have in depth roleplay with the experienced players, but make sure they don't know everything about what's going on, it'll drawn them into roleplay by nessesity. Anyway, tell a sappy story, with a nice lead in, about how you lost your cousin to a mad, pyromaniac wizard that they never caught. The thing in the pouch can be a scorched tooth/bracelet/lock of hair, etc. Depending on your class, the story could be B.S, or real. But I think I'm being too specific; the point is that you have make roleplaying look fun by making them curious. When you've drawn them in with honey, snap the trap. 2. They want universal acclaim for their incredible idiocy? Give it to them! "Wow, those Orcs just exploded! I wish I could do that, but all I have is this crappy sword. Mabye someday, can I be like you??" Ask incessent questions about how they came to be so glorious and mighty. About all the people you going to tell stories to about your fantastic adventures, and about how lucky you are to adventure with someone soooo famous and fantastical. Ask them about their boots, "Are those boots magical? Why not? Aren't you a mighty wizard?" Compliment the Ranger on the armor, so shiny, so strong and protective. reminice how about you wish you could wear it, but your hindered by your technque/spellcasting/slight build/ whatever. Get the player to think about why he wears the armor. Make up a fictitious story that you "heared" about the characters. Describe them doing impossible things, in an inflated, verbose, epic, extemely long-winded style. If they deny it, pretend they're being humble and continue. If they get rude, become dejected and sad. Regardless of whether they do or not, this should confuse them nicely. Now you have them right where you want them. :smirk: If they denied the story, some time later question their identities. "Your not the REAL Max the Mighty, you're an imposter!" The real legend himself would have never denied some humble tale as you told; he is capable of so much more! Challenge them to prove their identities with a feat of valor! This should be even easier if they agreed with your perposterous story. If you've got them this far, they'll either have to accept the challenge, (and get themselves killed amusingly) or, if they refuse, feel free to label them fakes and explain your going to find the "real" Characters to tell them about the imposters, etc, etc. If everything works out, the Players will learn humility. Again, too specific. But I think you get the idea; this could actually end up being alot of fun. Good luck. :tiphat:
ezze88 03-11-04, 01:35 PM	Attack his guy and give a lesson to this punk, thats what i'd do. what class are you anyways, and where do you play online cuz ive benn looking everywhere for a site like that
Salla 03-11-04, 02:05 PM	For Fireball Guy: Have someone you meet have important information ... but don't find this out until later. After he incinerates someone, make contact with another NPC. "Yeah, I know someone who can help ..." Then give a description of the guy who got incinerated. And as far as his 'why didn't you wait 'til they were asleep' crack, just say "Because that's murder, that's evil, that's wrong, and that's that." For Armored Ranger Boy: Just leave him. Is he even PROFICIENT in that armor? Make sure he counts all his penalties, and put in a few situations where stealth is paramount. He's impairing himself, you don't need to do much to drive it home. Heh ... almost wish I had time for online gaming. I'd be slapping those two upside the head in-character every coupla minutes.
His Majesty 03-11-04, 02:59 PM	I just had an idea.. many DMs use a "Terrible Vicious You've-got-no-chance-to-survive-a-fight-with-me" monsters (I should abbreviate that.. TVYGNCTSFWM!) against overly aggresive players. Common candidates for this role are the Tarrasque, Dragons, and Demons.. well, generally I resent from this method but I've got a new one - the Sphinx. All you've got to do to survive is answer a riddle (usually a very hard one requiring cooperation and the like), but if you it attack it simply bites your head off (as it's a pretty powerful thing). Apart from that.. well, good luck. Try to have fun. That is, after all, the point of it all.
Edymnion 03-18-04, 10:14 PM	Originally posted by ezze88 Attack his guy and give a lesson to this punk, thats what i'd do.Okay, you're going to love this. The Fireball Fireball and Fireball Again mage? We finally got into the fight. Orc saw him, yelled "Kill the mage!" and threw a dagger at him. He took *2* points of damage (he had 5 hp and was more than 30 feet away from the group) from the knife. My character then proceeds to behead the orc in one swing and cleave the kobold next to him. Orc is dead, and all of the meleer's are forming a line between him and less than a half dozen goblins and kobolds. What does he do? Here, I'll give you a direct copy/paste, its that good: "21:39, Today: Tru rolled 19 using 1d20. Iniatiative. Tru screams and flees the scene of the battle." He never even cast a single spell. what class are you anyways, and where do you play online cuz ive benn looking everywhere for a site like that My character in this one is a Berserker. Essentially, he uses the Barbarian mechanics, but is civilized and cultured that goes berserk in combat. If you're a Lodoss fan, think Orrin, but a bit more controlled. Or more accuratly, if you're a Piers Anthony fan, check "Weilding a Red Sword" for the incarnation of War. And I play on RPOL. Link is in my sig under Roleplay Online.
Bedevere 03-19-04, 06:52 AM	Fireball, Fireball, Fireball again? Two words. Counterspelling Sorcerer. So, your wizard runs out of the (no doubt) list of magic missiles and fireballs he has memorised, and the sorcerer has a couple of each left over, after countering each one. However, the sorcerer does not have to attack the party in return. At least, not with direct damage. A few spells of varied nature should get the fireballer aware of the power of things like charm person, shield, and of course, prestidigitation. Once a wizard realises there are more level 1 spells than magic missile and identify, they soon start to roleplay a lot better, simply because their improved spell lists give them more flexibility. As for the ranger, I agree with the whole 'remind him of the armour check penalty' thing. Not much to say about him based on the little info you've given, but as for the game you say he's running, casual asides like "Ah, I was roleplaying for x years before I ran a game" can get the message across that they are not experienced enough to run a game. Just be sure to say a number, not the letter x ;)
DMsDelight 03-19-04, 12:28 PM	Originally posted by Veton On an off-topic note, might I ask where you roleplay on-line? I'm looking for something like that. Go to www.aardmud.org, and click on "Play Aardwolf". It's bacically an online DnD. I LOVE Aardwolf. And Dnd. An example of a rather humorous text would look like, see my sig on the objects.
ShadowRanger 03-20-04, 09:53 PM	As mentioned above, get the DM to throw in an encounter where fighting gets you killed (e.g. our pary of 7th and 8th level characters had to deal with an adult sea giant, one of our group went ahead and shot at it, from 50' away, -20 to hit from water, giant grappled him, the rest of us had to talk our way out, like we wanted to do from the beggining