Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Fan 01-11-04, 10:45 PM	I'm in deep doo-doo. I'm playing a an exalted bard with a vow of poverty and peace. I really just joined the group, and things are already spinning wildly out of my control. I knew that playing an exalted character with vows would be tough, but man o man, I've got problems. In the party is a NE necromancer. I have been trying to convert her to the side of good with little success, and in the process been finding out as much about her plans as possible. Her plans involve using an artifact sword to raise an army of demons and conquer the world. Okay, I'm the kind of guy who is not against inter-party conflict as long as they are truly justified in-character. This is justified. My character knows he absolutely MUST do something. Only, I don't know what exactly I can do considering she is a far more powerful caster than me. I need some kind of plan to deal with her. However, there are worse things to come. We have also been recruited to lead an army into battle against an orcish horde. Oh, my vow of peace will work REAL well with that. I need some kind of plan to avert slaughter here. And it gets worse. The necromancer has brokered a deal. She will lend her magical skill to combat, but in exchange she must be given the corpses of the dead to experiment on for the beginnings of her undead horde. So, I need to stop her NOW so that she can't build her horde. Okay, this is getting really bad. Any ideas on how I can get through this situation without violating my vows or losing exalted status?
TKEdoc225 01-11-04, 11:00 PM	you have been penetrated by a cylindrical inclined plane. (read: screwed) Did you know there was an evil necromancer in the perty befoe you made your character? If so, I'd say you did it to yourself. Also, are you using the rules for diplomacy? I know it says you shouldn't use these on other characters, but it seems that the other player IS NOT going to change course any time soon. Know howeverm that if you try to use these skills, and the other player doesn't like it, it could lead to OOC problems. I know it sucks, but you might have to abandon your vows, or your character. As far ar getting recruited to lead an army, sounds to me like your DM is just picking on you. Decline the leaderchip of troops, and volunteer to stay in the village with the women and old folk andcare for the children and wounded. Help construct passive defenses in the town, like barriers and barricades. Pit traps, spike rows, and covered moats can also be used, and i doubt they violate your vow. You can be useful and support the effort without actually participating in the war. Just a few ideas for that one.
Salla 01-12-04, 02:00 PM	*Grrrr* Open PHB. Show DM and other players page that says 'Evil alignments are for monsters and NPCs only'. Secondly, while you do have those vows, that doesn't mean you're going to sit there and be a sap and let him do any of this. Your course is clear ... go get help. Big help. Lots of help. The next big town you're at, run to a temple of Pelor (or whatever undead-hatin' sun god this world has) and describe this guy and his plans in exacting detail (request a Zone of Truth spell and choose not to save). As far as the orc hordes goes, well, if you're in charge, put that Bardish diplomacy modifier to work! Politely and humbly request to speak to the orc general/warlord/commander/whatever, and try to hammer out an equitable agreement that will result in, at the very least, a temporary armistice. A few compulsion/charms on the way in, to get the guards to escort you to the warlord, will be invaluable. *light bulb* In fact ... tell the Orc Warlord about the Necromancer's plans to use his army as fodder for his unholy experiments. Tell him that you were sent by (whoever recruited you) to seek their help in dealing with this 'threat to us all, orc and human alike', because only the mighty orcs have the power to defeat him. Make a treaty. Run back, tell your troops that the orc threat has been nullified, and that they've offered thirty of their warriors as a tribute 'for whatever purpose we see fit' ... and send in the Necro. *squish* Now that I've gotten that off my chest ... the truth of the matter is, you are just playing the wrong character for this game. The DM either doesn't know, or doesn't care, that you're playing an exalted character. It is VERY IMPORTANT that the DM provide a theme for the game at the very onset, so players don't make characters that don't fit. For example, in a Mercenary game, a Monk is pretty well WRONG, because typically (though this does vary by monk), they don't care much about money. If you're running a game with lots of nobility and courtly intrigue, a half-orc barbarian who's earned the nickname Grok Nosepicker is a bad choice. Et Cetera.
Wizard 01-12-04, 02:31 PM	Charms, charms, charms. The necro is a far greater threat than the orcish horde. I'm with Salla on going to the nearest temple and telling them of the necro. Give the necro the chance to repent, of course. Don't forget to show up as a healer for the paladins, of course. :)
fruits and vegetables 01-13-04, 12:05 PM	*Grrrr* open DMG. show salla rule 0. evil can be played as characters. it usually requires the group be older than 16 years however. my friends do it just fine. if you knew party was good beforehand you should not have made such an oppositional character. i did this once a few months back. i did not know everyone was going to have evil and chaotic characters. after two games i told the DM i was making another character that is more in line with the group. make a new character. give this one to your DM to use as an NPC.
Raist27m 01-13-04, 12:35 PM	Ok. A vow of poverty, I can understand. It's rather nifty actually. However, how do you expect to get any XP or advance your character at any reasonable rate, if you don't kill monsters at all? What exactly is the wording of the vow?
devinmdp 01-13-04, 08:48 PM	If you didn't do your homework to determine there was a NE Necromancer in the party bent on destroying the world, then you get what you deserve in rolling up an exalted PC to adventure with him. Even more, why the he;LL are you even hanging around such a guy? Why in the heck didn't your DM warn you about this? Why did you take a vow of peace in a campaign geared towards combat? Someone is really being stupid here...either you are your DM. Sorry, but it had to be said. Devin
Nameless One Jr. 01-13-04, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by Salla *Grrrr* Open PHB. Show DM and other players page that says 'Evil alignments are for monsters and NPCs only'. Actually, what it says is "In general, evil alignments are for villains and monsters." That doesn't mean that PCs can't be evil. I found your idea to be rather inspired. Good call. As for my take on the problem, I think the DM isn't taking enough time to look at whether the PCs are going to be able to sucessfully interact with each other, let alone with the campaign ideas he's putting forward. This is why it's usually best for PCs to be made together beforehand, so that they won't clash to badly, or better yet, fit together nicely in a good, solid working relationship. Perhaps you should speak with your DM out of the game and mention some of the problems you're having?
VirgilCaine 01-13-04, 11:07 PM	Re: Poverty of Peace. Get out of 1E! In 3E experience is given for DEFEATING CHALLENGES, NOT KILLING MONSTERS, FORGETFUL PERSON. His problem is that he is a Monk, and not a Cleric, or even a Wizard, if it is against *dealing any damage* and in which case, yes, bad idea. If non-lethal damage is okay, then that's different, that is doable in combat. Ask the DM what was up with him not giving you party awareness.
Daikona 01-14-04, 12:14 AM	Originally posted by Salla *Grrrr* Open PHB. Show DM and other players page that says 'Evil alignments are for monsters and NPCs only'. :rolleyes: I play an evil character in our group right now, and it works just fine. Of course, I'm also subtle evil, and none of the party is *exalted*.
Black_Dog 01-14-04, 02:41 AM	Ok, I'm doing this from memory, but isn't Hypnotism a first level Bard spell? Does it have some kind of PERMANENT effect in certain situations? I'm really just fishing here, but it may prove very useful.
Salla 01-14-04, 02:46 PM	Originally posted by Nameless One Jr. Actually, what it says is "In general, evil alignments are for villains and monsters." That doesn't mean that PCs can't be evil. I found your idea to be rather inspired. Good call. PHB 3.5, p 104, second column, second paragraph under The Nine Alignments: "The first six alignments, lawful good through chaotic neutral, are the standard alignments for player characters. The evil alignments are for monsters and villains." Verbatim. :) Thank you for the compliment. :)
Brainstrain 01-14-04, 08:35 PM	Salla, you're a genius. Just the thing to do, run the problems into eachother!
The Master Weaver Is Warped 01-15-04, 10:21 AM	Originally posted by The_Fan Her plans involve using an artifact sword to raise an army of demons and conquer the world. Well, you said peace and poverty, not honesty. Steal the sword and destroy it. You are a Bard, with a bit of those morally ambigious bard/rogue skills, aren't you?
Conaill 01-15-04, 08:59 PM	If you are playing with somewhat mature players... just sit down with the necro player and talk things through OUT OF GAME! Figure out between the two of you how you can make these two PCs work within the same party. Get the DM to mediate if you need to. Maybe the necromancer could have a crush on the bard? And maybe the bard is a little gullible and doesn't realize what the necro is up to? Make some mutual agreements on how you're going to play these characters, so you can both have a good game. If you DON'T have mature players... well, ye're screwed anyways...
Crinos 01-16-04, 07:28 PM	For one thing, Im the guy playing the NE necromancer fans talking about in this campaign. and although she is planning on the whole army of the dead thing, my char is more rude and creepy than evil. anyways, the whole alliance thing that salla suggested wont work. Mainly because the orcs really hate the elves and vice versa. And because my character would have a polymorph self spell cast when she went in so she could turn into a will o wisp and escape, just in case things went awry. As for the demon summoning thing, that probably wont come of anything, my chars heart isnt really in it, she just wants to learn how to use the sword to deal with a fraternity of liches that want to kill her. She just says the conquer stuff to look tough. The most evil thing that my char is planning on doing in the immediate future is to become a lich, and also to kill a paladin thats been giving her grief (NPC) And Conaill, Me and fans are really good friends both in and out of game, in fact I helped him select the spells for his char. I personally think that having an exalted and vile pc on the same team makes for great role playing oppertunities.
was_fired 01-16-04, 08:11 PM	Get an army of paladins and defeat Crinos. I can understand a desire to become a lich but I find the idea of performing a unredeamable evil act such as say, forging a phylactery from the solidified souls of one hundred children killed by a swarm of scorpions while trapped in a cage formed from their parents bones rather disgusting and not something a good character should even condon. Yes I know that is not what it says about how you forge a phylactery but that was the most evil act I could think of off the top of my head, and the most evil act one can think of would basicly define what unspeakable evil would be.
Conaill 01-16-04, 08:15 PM	Originally posted by Crinos Me and fans are really good friends both in and out of game, in fact I helped him select the spells for his char. I personally think that having an exalted and vile pc on the same team makes for great role playing oppertunities. Sounds more like great roleplaying headaches to me. So, how do YOU plan to make this "team" work? What sort of strategy do you have in mind with your own PC to make sure this exalted bard - which you help create - actually sees any reason to stay in the team? Or did you just want to set up a confrontational situation - plot be damned?
Crinos 01-16-04, 08:30 PM	Originally posted by Conaill Sounds more like great roleplaying headaches to me. So, how do YOU plan to make this "team" work? What sort of strategy do you have in mind with your own PC to make sure this exalted bard - which you help create - actually sees any reason to stay in the team? Or did you just want to set up a confrontational situation - plot be damned? You know, sometimes I wonder if people have actually read through the BOED. First off, Fans character has just joined our team last session, and it was my character (the necromancer) who insisted to have her around. Fans bard, from what he's told me, is something of an evangelist, who tries to turn people from the wrong path using words and not his fist. When his char looks at mine, he see's a lost soul in desperate need of guidance, not an evil creature to be destroyed. As for my char, when she looks at fans char, she see's a nice guy with an unrealistic view of the world who will give out healing spells for free and keep the more zealous defenders of justice from throttling her neck. Also, during the war council thing, Fans character asked all the PC's to spare any wounded orcs that they happen upon. The chaotic good elf ranger refused (she hates orcs) The druid also refused (no quarter given, none taken) But my char agreed for two reasons: one, she is willing to honor the bards requests in order to keep him happy and keep the healing spells coming in, and the other reason is that the necromancer wants live orcs to experiment upon. Im actually kind of dissapointed that no one on these boards can come up with anything other than "knock the necromancer unconcious, take her to a mountain retreat and brainwash her." Just because two characters are different alignments doesnt mean they cant get along, there both after the same thing, just for different reasons. Back when I first started in 2nd edition, I was the only good aligned character on a team of evil characters, and it worked out fine then as well.
devinmdp 01-16-04, 08:36 PM	Originally posted by Crinos You know, sometimes I wonder if people have actually read through the BOED. Im actually kind of dissapointed that no one on these boards can come up with anything other than "knock the necromancer unconcious, take her to a mountain retreat and brainwash her." Just because two characters are different alignments doesnt mean they cant get along, there both after the same thing, just for different reasons. Back when I first started in 2nd edition, I was the only good aligned character on a team of evil characters, and it worked out fine then as well. Ummm....the issue is not that your necromancer happens to be a misguided and creepy person who likes to experiment on orcs. The issue is that, as the exalted's player stated in the first post of this thread, your PC wants to raise and army and conquer the world. Or did that little tidbit escape you? This, as described, isn't a simple matter of two people with different worldviews being able to stomach each other enough to join for a common cause. I fully agree good and evil people CAN adventure together, though I think the longterm prospects are dim without one of the two sliding towards the other in alignment. This is, ultimately, about an evil fanatic who wants to conquer the world and spread pain and misery on a vast scale and a good aligned person who is supposed to associate with this vile necromancer. It is amazing how you have sugar-coated the situation. Devin
Crinos 01-16-04, 08:49 PM	But to be honest, my chars heart really isnt in the whole domination thing, she just says stuff like that to seem tough. she only wants an undead army for protection, and because she likes undead better than the living (I.E. lichloved) as for demon summoning, she wants to learn to use the sword because it was made by her ancestor, I.E. she believe that the sword is her birthright and that she was destined to wield it. Anyways, it isnt like she doesnt do good deeds occasionally, she has helped the PC's slay an ogre mage, rescue a group of dwarven children from a undead filled temple, and rid a mine of an insane orcish druid. So Fans bard has no real reason to want to hurt her.
devinmdp 01-16-04, 08:52 PM	Originally posted by Crinos But to be honest, my chars heart really isnt in the whole domination thing, she just says stuff like that to seem tough. she only wants an undead army for protection, and because she likes undead better than the living (I.E. lichloved) as for demon summoning, she wants to learn to use the sword because it was made by her ancestor, I.E. she believe that the sword is her birthright and that she was destined to wield it. Anyways, it isnt like she doesnt do good deeds occasionally, she has helped the PC's slay an ogre mage, rescue a group of dwarven children from a undead filled temple, and rid a mine of an insane orcish druid. So Fans bard has no real reason to want to hurt her. I agree, as you seem to be implying, that the bard will be able to adventure with her until he learns of her domination scheme. I got the sense that the bard's player was asking more in a long term capacity. Sure, right now to him you are just a bit of a sinister freak. But at some point in time your plans will become obvious, and then the party fractures and the campaign ends....right? That or one of you two gets killed by the other....right? Or one of you two converts alignments....right? What do you see as the longterm implications of this alignment discord? Devin
Conaill 01-16-04, 08:53 PM	Originally posted by Crinos You know, sometimes I wonder if people have actually read through the BOED.Uhm... no... why? I didn't realize the BoED was now required reading to be able to roleplay. Ok, clearly *you* see no problem with having two PCs with such divergent views in the same party. Equally clearly, Fan seems to have a major problem with it. Back to my first suggestion in this threads... sounds like it's time for you and Fan to sit down together and work out some way that these PCs can coexist. "Seeing a lost soul in desperate need of guidance" will only work for a short while for the exalted bard. Especially once he starts seeing your character as incorrigible, and a bigger threat than those orcish hordes you're supposed to fight. There has to be some give-and-take here...
Crinos 01-16-04, 10:59 PM	After thinking about things for a while, Ive decided to make a compromise. after the whole "war is hell" arc is over, im gonna start turning nima away from the darkness. Oh, she'll still be evil, no bout a doubt it, but she'll be using her evil powers to fight the good fight. Kinda like Venom from marvel comics, that boy was as twisted as they come, but he always saw himself as a protector of the innocent. and fans character will make a nice moral compass/anchor/guy to hold my char back so she doesnt accidentially frag a do gooder.
Cornholio 01-17-04, 02:18 AM	Originally posted by Salla *Grrrr* Open PHB. Show DM and other players page that says 'Evil alignments are for monsters and NPCs only'. choice. Et Cetera. Step 1: Close PHB. Beat Salla over the head with it repeatedly. :behold:
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-17-04, 02:30 AM	Query Fan: Did you have any iota of an idea about the game before you rolled up your character? If so, I'm sorry but I have no pity. 'Hey, we're in a war campaign and another players is running an evil necromancer -- I know, I'll roll up a pacifistic goodie two shoes!" Of course, it was still your DM's job to tell you that your character would be... well useless. My solution; retire your character to go care for the wounded, and roll up an NE 'anything with a weapon'. The fact that you're already contemplating a PK is sign enough to me your character has become more trouble than he's worth.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-17-04, 02:33 AM	Originally posted by Cornholio Step 1: Close PHB. Beat Salla over the head with it repeatedly. :behold: In this instance, I'd agree. Its one thing to do it in your game, but to leech it into someone elses.... ech!
green_yawgmoth 01-17-04, 03:52 AM	Originally posted by Cornholio Step 1: Close PHB. Beat Salla over the head with it repeatedly. :behold: Step 2: Profit. Anyone who just says "no PC should ever be evil" needs a good beating. Playing an evil PC can be fun, and it doesn't have to interfere with anything, unless someone just desparately needs to play a paladin and/or exalted character. Evil campaigns can be extremely fun too. Try it sometime, you might see what I'm talking about.
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-17-04, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by Crinos After thinking about things for a while, Ive decided to make a compromise. after the whole "war is hell" arc is over, im gonna start turning nima away from the darkness. Oh, she'll still be evil, no bout a doubt it, but she'll be using her evil powers to fight the good fight. Kinda like Venom from marvel comics, that boy was as twisted as they come, but he always saw himself as a protector of the innocent. and fans character will make a nice moral compass/anchor/guy to hold my char back so she doesnt accidentially frag a do gooder. Ahh, yes! All hail the anti-hero! One of my favorite archetypes of all time... In fact, my own necromancer is taking this path...he started as a LN Necro/Cleric...but after a level drain and some beyond the grave visits from demon lords...he's going NE anti-hero style necro/rogue/assassin (as soon as he qualifies) Yay for anti-heroes! :D
Crinos 01-17-04, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Query Fan: Did you have any iota of an idea about the game before you rolled up your character? If so, I'm sorry but I have no pity. 'Hey, we're in a war campaign and another players is running an evil necromancer -- I know, I'll roll up a pacifistic goodie two shoes!" Fan knew about my character well in advance (In fact, he played this campaign before as a monk.) He didnt know about the war arc though, the DM started that the session he came in. But hey, Lifeline from the G.I joes was a pacifist in a war setting and he did alright.
Dungeon_Master 01-17-04, 09:34 PM	Then there's ALL the character's on M*A*S*H. By the way, PCs are allowed to be evil too. There'sno rule that says they can't.
Salla 01-19-04, 08:08 PM	Actually ... there IS a rule that says PCs can't be evil. I've quoted it in the thread above. Regardless, if you do intend to house-rule it so that PCs can be evil, you need to tell people this, and work with your fellow players to avoid such painfully disparate characters ... unless you LIKE party in-fighting. And I have tried 'evil' games before, and find them remarkably boring and unsatisfying, thank you.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-19-04, 08:17 PM	Good for you, want a cookie? :rolleyes:
Salla 01-20-04, 07:45 AM	Thanks, got one.:cookie:
fruits and vegetables 01-20-04, 01:44 PM	salla......that is not true. it says that the first six alignments are the "standard" alignments for PC's. The three evil alignments are for monsters and villians. where does that say a player can not be evil
fruits and vegetables 01-20-04, 02:36 PM	also... page 172 of 3.5 DMG has a section on "monsters as races". it details how a player can play a monster.
Darkwin6 01-20-04, 04:41 PM	Step 1: Close PHB. Beat Salla over the head with it repeatedly. I'll hold him down for you.
Mergandisevender 01-20-04, 09:31 PM	Salla has a bad view on Evil characters. Salla is quoting out of the book. Salla is not a DM. Side note, DON'T TOUCH THE SWORD. Jeepers, evil artifacts are not going to like you. Just.. get the Orcs to come to your side as was stated abvoe somewhat..
Salla 01-21-04, 07:49 AM	Salla has been a DM since 1982, thank you very much. The good and neutral alignments are, as stated, 'standard', therefore the evil alignments are 'non-standard', meaning it requires express DM permission to do, the same as using a PC of any species not found in the PHB. Thanks for helping me prove my point, fruits'n'veggies. :)
fruits and vegetables 01-21-04, 01:17 PM	umm...sure. i am glad you agree with me.:) reasonable demand you made. i tell my DM beforehand what alignment i want to play regardless of good or bad myself.
Nameless One Jr. 01-21-04, 03:21 PM	Originally posted by Salla Salla has been a DM since 1982, thank you very much. The good and neutral alignments are, as stated, 'standard', therefore the evil alignments are 'non-standard', meaning it requires express DM permission to do, the same as using a PC of any species not found in the PHB. Thanks for helping me prove my point, fruits'n'veggies. :) It's best to run your character past the DM first, no matter what alignment you play...saves a lot of grief and allows the DM's coronary to occur prior to the game itself, leaving time for recovery. ;)
Wickid Knight 01-21-04, 04:58 PM	This is a great thread and I love the dynamics of the group in question. I missed the old days of roleplaying with evil characters. I played with two characters of an evil bend. The first was always "good", but was greeeeeedy to the point were he would keep treasure a secret all the way through the dungeon, but he usually played a character that was a knight or some other form of nobility or person of high standing. The other liked to be the trouble maker, working with the GM to help the baddies know our locations and plans. He also liked to cause problems with the "good", but greedy player, cause boy let me tell you once he found out about those particular items he would insist that they needed to be divided or at least ownership agreed upon, mostly for the sake of trouble making. But it made for really dynamic roleplaying and also gave faces and personalities to our characters. I say evil on my friends evil on!!!
Caltsar 01-21-04, 05:34 PM	But it made for really dynamic roleplaying and also gave faces and personalities to our characters. I say evil on my friends evil on!!! Yes, but you need a group of roleplayers that know evil is not just: "Hey! Someone's coming up the road! I kill 'im." That is exactally the reason I immidiatly stopped letting my group play evil characters "until further notice." The one time I did, the character killed off the chaotic good party and killed everything else that moved because "My alignment says I have to." Anyway I'm going to stop before this turns into an even more offtopic rant.
Wickid Knight 01-21-04, 05:49 PM	... to topic. What about the other members of this party, are there other members? One of the things that kept the "evil" PCs from doing said catastrophes was that the majority of the party was not evil. Other than the exalted bard and the necromancer, what is the rest of the parties stance on hints at world domination from the necromancer or the conflict created by the exalted bard? The DM should definitely be using the evil necromancer for plot hooks and attempt to rally the character to the sides of darkness as a covert agent. From the necromancer's player post I would gather that this is a fairly mature party as the motivations and set personalities of the characters seem to be covered.
devinmdp 01-21-04, 06:12 PM	Originally posted by Wickid Knight This is a great thread and I love the dynamics of the group in question. I missed the old days of roleplaying with evil characters. I played with two characters of an evil bend. The first was always "good", but was greeeeeedy to the point were he would keep treasure a secret all the way through the dungeon, but he usually played a character that was a knight or some other form of nobility or person of high standing. The other liked to be the trouble maker, working with the GM to help the baddies know our locations and plans. He also liked to cause problems with the "good", but greedy player, cause boy let me tell you once he found out about those particular items he would insist that they needed to be divided or at least ownership agreed upon, mostly for the sake of trouble making. But it made for really dynamic roleplaying and also gave faces and personalities to our characters. I say evil on my friends evil on!!! Without accusing you, since I don't know you and never played with you, I must say from my experience the people who tend to like to play evil characters who harm the other party members in some fashion and claim it is all in the interest of good roleplaying usually are the first ones to whine and complain when such things get done to them. It is very easy to play a character that hides treasure from others or helps the bad guys hamper or kill other PCs. It is far more difficult to play on the receiving end of such treatment and be completely accepting of it. Devin
Wickid Knight 01-21-04, 10:14 PM	Actually I played a good swashbuckler and trader. The diplomatic leader of the party. Usually we had different individuals lead in different circumstances. I enjoyed playing with the other two individuals; with both their um... "evil" shortcomings. But yeah when an evil plot was foiled or treasure divided equally it usually regressed into an argument or "whining" from the aforementioned player. [*edit* great link devin "All your base are belong to us!"]