Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Throg 02-06-07, 12:32 AM	I have no idea why my DM allowed it, but another player was allowed to make an evil character in a group of all good/neutral. And then there's me, the LG Paladin. Now, the DM's world is a little more laxed, but I made the 'excuse' of traveling with this person after knowing that his soul was tainted with evil, it's his goal to reform this tainted soul before darker evil enters him. I actually am enjoying this kind of conflict, except I have yet to see how this character is exactly neutral evil (More like Chaotic Stupid so far, but whatever), but that's besides the point. I'm putting myself far away from the 'It's evil! *Smite!*" Paladin image, so I was curious if anyone else has gotten 'Less then perfect' people in society to see the light of good and change their ways. I was planning on taking this character away from the group to 'Chop Wood' and use the time to discuss the problems he has seen thus far, and that he has no trouble playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner if pushed hard enough. Thoughts? Suggestions? Good stories? Wanting to scream about people making evil characters? All good here!
Azar_of_Faerun 02-06-07, 12:40 AM	Book of Exalted Deeds, Level 9 spell, Sanctify Wicked
Throg 02-06-07, 12:42 AM	Book of Exalted Deeds, Level 9 spell, Sanctify Wicked All well and good, but Paladins don't get lvl 9 spells =P And in case you couldn't tell, I was looking more for the best way to go about it in-character and not with a spell or a roll of the dice. Edit: Make myself a lil more clear
Azar_of_Faerun 02-06-07, 01:33 AM	Oh, I know Paladins can't cast it, but it does make for a good quest. Campaigns have centered around finding someone who can cast Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrction, Miracle, Wish, etc
Animae_Draconum 02-06-07, 02:58 AM	Atonement Abjuration Level: Clr 5, Drd 5 Components: V, S, M, F, DF, XP Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf. Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected. Reverse Magical Alignment Change If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no cost in experience points. Restore Class A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell. Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP. Redemption or Temptation You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally. Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful. Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively. Atonement can do it too but it it offers a choice. For a simple solution not requiring a spell follow these easy steps... 1. Buy a Helm of Opposite Alignment(4000 gp, DMG) 2. Tie up your evil friend 3. Put the helm on your friend 4. Remove Helm 5. Detect Evil Repeat steps 3-5 until your friend no longer detects as evil A_D
Terraneaux 02-06-07, 03:01 AM	Dude, that spell is pretty screwed up. I would hesitate to call it good. I would suggest touting a utilitarian philosophy of 'greatest good' as an intelligent thing to do. Couching it from the position of "do it because its right, worthless scum" rarely wins converts. And I can't really give you any examples, becasue usually I like to play the chaotic evil characters. The response I usually get is "its evil! smite it!" or else willful ignorance.
Animae_Draconum 02-06-07, 03:29 AM	lol the spell isnt screwed up its just plain fun, I play an arcane dweomerkeeper that uses it all the time greater arcane fusion into a limited wish/celerity for a -7 penalty on the save and the standard action I need to cast the spell using the dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell class ability to avoid the level loss and tada for a mere 300 XP you trap their soul for a year and change them to good. A_D
Terraneaux 02-06-07, 03:46 AM	That spell isn't good aligned at all... animate dead does less harm to people.
Animae_Draconum 02-06-07, 04:02 AM	it doesnt cause harm to them at all, how does it harm them in any way? A_D
Dei 02-06-07, 04:49 AM	it doesnt cause harm to them at all, how does it harm them in any way? A_D Physically you are right, it does no harm to them whatsoever. Let's look at the spell from another angle though. Spell Description: This spell tears the subject's consciousness from their body forcing them into a magical trap where they remain helpless for 1 year. During this time the essence of their soul is bombarded and twisted by the magical forces, draining away their personality and motivation and replacing them with all those that the character detests. After 1 year has passed the victim emerges, a twisted copy of his former self with very little of the original person remaining. The spell has the side-effect of making the victim believe that his new alignment is the best one and that he is indebted to the caster for bringing him to it. Yeah... that spell's totally harmless isn't it. I can see a good character using it with an "end justifies the means" attitude but I agree, the spell's not exactly sunshine and roses as far as Good actions goes. Anyway though, we're getting off point. To convert an evil character almost always requires DM co-operation to pull it off properly. Having him set up a situation where acting selflessly and for the greater good will rally people around you and make your job much easier will be a good in game way of showing the evil character that actually, being good isn't all that bad. For example you are both captured and put in a pen with a bunch of other slaves. If you act selflessly towards the other slaves (helping them with their jobs, caring for their injured, etc) then they rally around you and you can lead them in a rebellion that will earn you all your freedom. If on the other hand you act selfishly they will hate you and even if you do manage to get out of your cell they will alert the guards out of sheer spite. Now the whole "you get captured" scenario is ridiculously trite so you and your DM may want to come up with something a little better if he's amenable to the idea to start with. The other player will need to be a good RPer as well for it to have any impact however.
Throg 02-07-07, 10:28 AM	An evil act to stop the continuation of evil acts is in no way a good act. The helm of opposite alignment would be forcing them to become good (An evil act to me), and so would the spell even if I managed to find a lvl 17 exalted cleric who would want to actually help (Even more so if it has material component, don't have the book anyways). Right now the evil character has only acted 'not-good' and reckless infront of me, such as charging a group of kobolds who already gave up and ran into a dead end corridor, while he himself was very close to dead. I guess the best chance I have is to just show him the light, or at least try to show him better actions to take, through my own actions and stop him from persuing acts of evil. I'm not sure how well I've done so far, since I've stepped up to save his hide multiple times... Guess I could ask him next time I see him how he views my character after that adventure.
Animae_Draconum 02-07-07, 06:44 PM	Physically you are right, it does no harm to them whatsoever. Let's look at the spell from another angle though. Spell Description: This spell tears the subject's consciousness from their body forcing them into a magical trap where they remain helpless for 1 year. During this time the essence of their soul is bombarded and twisted by the magical forces, draining away their personality and motivation and replacing them with all those that the character detests. After 1 year has passed the victim emerges, a twisted copy of his former self with very little of the original person remaining. The spell has the side-effect of making the victim believe that his new alignment is the best one and that he is indebted to the caster for bringing him to it. Yeah... that spell's totally harmless isn't it. I love how you wrote your own spell description. The actual spell description is... This spell tears the foul, corrupted soul from the body of an evil creature and traps it in a diamond receptacle. The creature's soulless body instantly withers and molders into dust Trapped in the gem, the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The soul reflacts on past evils and slowly finds witin itself a spark of goodness. Over time this spark grows into a burning fire. After 1 year the trapped creature's soul adopts the alignment of the caster. Once the soul's penetance is complete, shattering the diamond releases the soul, reforms the body, attaches the soul to it, and transforms the whole into a sanctified creature. A_D
tharivol266 02-07-07, 06:56 PM	Question: Just how do you purify the corrupt? Answer: with fire. personally i would go with: *detect evil* *smite evil* this is what you get for being evil. next day *detect evil* *smite evil* this is what you get for being evil. rinse and repeat until he does enough good stuff to become neutral. every couple times you should add another smite in so you are hitting him as many times as you can each day eventually. its just like house training a dog. you beat them enough they listen*** *DISCLAIMER* if you choose this method you might need several attonement spells. *** i do not commit nor do i condone animal cruelty
Callista 02-07-07, 07:13 PM	Using the Sanctify the Wicked spell is really beyond the point. It shouldn't be used on PCs. Your teammate would be turned into his opposite alignment on the G/E scale, pretty much ruining the player's idea of what the character's personality should be like. As a player, don't do it to a fellow PC without permission from the player. And besides, it takes a year! Opinion on StW spell in spoiler, since it's off topic: If you want a non-evil flavor to "Sanctify the Wicked", then add this explanation to the save. That's right--there's a Will save. Creatures attached too closely to their evil alignment will make the save; creatures who would have been Good if they'd been given the choice will fail it. For example: "The dragon looks a little wistful as your spell begins to affect him; he seems to be thinking about something half-forgotten. Before he can fight back, your diamond glows brightly as the dragon's body crumbles." Or else: "The dragon recoils from the pure energy heading towards him, instinctively shrinking away from it. As he realizes what you were trying to do, he roars in rage and prepares to attack." So in case 1, Mr. Dragon would've wanted to be Good if he'd had the chance... only he never had it, wouldn't have come around on his own because of the weight of his racial memory ('always evil') keeping him in line. In case 2, nothing could've persuaded the dragon to even think of Good as a possible choice. Technically, the Will save overrides the NPC's nature and gives him the "choice" to accept the spell or not. Remember Angel, the TV spinoff from Buffy? The title character was essentially the result of a StW spell... a vampire given a soul (and thus a conscience) as a curse, thereafter to spend his life trying to atone. That would be about the same thing you'd be doing to your fellow player's character--turning him into an angsty ex-evil dude who desperately wants to either make up for what he did wrong, or find somewhere to hide away from the world. Needless to say, this is not a kind thing to do to a player who probably had a good idea of what his character ought to be like, and what he plans for him. It turns things completely upside down. Okay. That said, I'd go for talking to the player about a possible "redemption" for their character. You just cannot do this without the player's cooperation; and anyhow, he's the one who determines his character's personality and actions. If he's looking to get into an evil PrC, remember that many of these PrCs don't require that he stay evil... it's just an entry requirement. Also, neutral characters can be just as "dark" or "dangerous" as evil ones, if that's the look he's going for. The character, as you said, has already been acting more neutral than evil; your Paladin doesn't need to convert him all the way to good, though he can of course keep trying. Your Pally doesn't need to do anything more than treat the evil guy just like any other teammate: Protect him in battle, help him out when he needs it, treat him with decency and courtesy. Typical paladin behavior. A good way to do this, I think, would be for the evil PC's player to work with the DM to provide a non-evil NPC who's dependent on the evil guy's help--a fair maiden, a street urchin, or even an animal. It all depends on what sort of thing the evil guy's personality will attach to, whether he's looking for romance or a protege' to teach his skills to or just a friend to drink with. That gives him experience of the Good-aligned things that even evil people sometimes do: Love, friendship, doing things for others they like. You might need to force him to take care of this person at first; but if the PC plays along he should become fond of them despite himself. Alternately he could form a romantic, friendly, or protective relationship with another PC. Through the example of the paladin and other party members, and the experience he has with giving to another person without receiving anything in return, the Evil party member should begin to form equitable rather than exploitative relationships, and thus and a set of morals. It needn't be a great change--just enough to make him solidly neutral: Loyal to his friends, dangerous to his enemies, willing to live and let live anyone who isn't in those two categories. Neutral is probably the best bet with your fellow party member; this gives you the best chance at getting along with him, and him the best chance at keeping his character's personality and story intact.
Keiichi_m 02-07-07, 07:24 PM	My recomendation is this: First you need to talk to the player... if he wants his character evil, nothing but god(the DM) himself is changing his alignment. if the player agrees that it'd be cool to have you working towards converting him, you need to lead by example, and subtlety, yelling "HEY JERK-ASS! STOP BEING EVIL" isn't gonna help. If you are good and try to get him to perform good acts, minor ones like watching someones beer in the tavern without drinking it (not THAT good, but you're doing someone a favor), he may edge slowly towards it. After this for a while you need to either happen upon or rig a situation where a major good act benifits him, so it's good for the purposes of self gain (still evil, but it's progress) and I don't mean being sent on a mission to save villagers, I mean, heat of battle, some helpless person will die without his aid, and saving her means he gets a magic item out of it. it's heat of battle so more instictual then anything else. if you can get him there... he'll be nuetral and probablly easier to work with. these things take months, not just a couple sessions.
DarkNick 02-07-07, 08:14 PM	I'm with Keiichi_m. If the player in question is not into it then don't bother. (I think it is unlikely he will agree to go along with it). Maybe you could give him a chance to convert your paladin to the dark side? How would you feel about that? If that does not sit well with you then you can't expect this guy to go along with it. Maybe the best thing you can do is try to find away to live with it e.g. ignore the fact the Paladin is travelling with someone evil, make up a new character, smite the evil guy....
Callista 02-08-07, 01:40 AM	The evil guy is the odd man out here, since the rest of the party is good/neutral... if the paladin goes to evil, then there'll just be a split party, which is worse than just one guy out of line! Whoever's playing this Evil character had better be a good role-player.
Throg 02-08-07, 01:58 AM	I'd holy settle on getting him to neutral, but I don't get to see my friend too much so I have to wait till this next Tuesday when we play. Maybe the title I made is too misleading...? The only 'evil' act I've seen him do (Not my character) so far is steal some gold from the group, ie slip it into his pocket before anyone got a chance to see, but I do want to talk with him OOC.. I wonder if he made the character leaning closely to neutral rather then full evil, though there haven't been many opportunities for him to be evil. And I will never play a 'It's evil! Smite it!' Paladin. Until I see proof of evil acts, I will not punish him outright which would be no more then tyeing him up and taking him to a jail of some sort to get sentenced. But that also doesn't mean I'm going to willfully go along with his plans. I can come up with a variety of reasons to follow this person that wouldn't violate the code (Such as, protecting and watching the rest of the group to make sure he doesn't kill them... or with the level of competence he's seen of this guy, make sure he doesn't get the rest of the group killed.). Until he changes his ways, I will never consider myself apart of any group with him, merely a guardian for the others. The only things I can think of to do IC are actually being blunt and forceful about the situation, since I'm playing a dwarf who's demeanor is quiet and gruff. Probably showing him through my own actions would be the best... maybe keeping him at arms length so to speak at all times would be another thing to consider.
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 02:36 AM	Well simply put your playing a Paladin wrong. Your detect evil is divine insight you trust w/o fail. If your pc has caught wind of evil then you should have detected. Should you have smited? Probably not. You're a Paladin not a moronic half-orc assassin. You however should seek celestial guidance. Lastly no pc can be forced good they must want it. (We're D&D geeks not the Catholic church.) Unless you commit and evil act like shoving an unwanted helm on there head. Easiest way to determain weather they seek Atonement is to cast Zone of Truth while they are asleep then wake them to discuss the matter. It's not really fair but it's not evil. If they show no remose consult with the party leader and have them disbanded. It's also gives you DM a spitefull NPC later.
Animae_Draconum 02-08-07, 08:15 AM	I'd holy settle on getting him to neutral, but I don't get to see my friend too much so I have to wait till this next Tuesday when we play. Maybe the title I made is too misleading...? The only 'evil' act I've seen him do (Not my character) so far is steal some gold from the group, ie slip it into his pocket before anyone got a chance to see, but I do want to talk with him OOC.. I wonder if he made the character leaning closely to neutral rather then full evil, though there haven't been many opportunities for him to be evil. And I will never play a 'It's evil! Smite it!' Paladin. Until I see proof of evil acts, I will not punish him outright which would be no more then tyeing him up and taking him to a jail of some sort to get sentenced. But that also doesn't mean I'm going to willfully go along with his plans. I can come up with a variety of reasons to follow this person that wouldn't violate the code (Such as, protecting and watching the rest of the group to make sure he doesn't kill them... or with the level of competence he's seen of this guy, make sure he doesn't get the rest of the group killed.). Until he changes his ways, I will never consider myself apart of any group with him, merely a guardian for the others. The only things I can think of to do IC are actually being blunt and forceful about the situation, since I'm playing a dwarf who's demeanor is quiet and gruff. Probably showing him through my own actions would be the best... maybe keeping him at arms length so to speak at all times would be another thing to consider. Emphasis Mine Gold is not that big of a deal, grow up. If you need items to make your character viable then you arent playing to your strengths(class abilities). This is why fighters are crap. Theres a reason I dont play with paladins or any class that conveys a sense that what they do is always right. Killing a paladin is worth losing exalted status or anything else every time... True Strike......On my spell list Shivering Touch........On my spell list Arcane Thesis: Shivering Touch.......Free Rod of Maximize.........54000 GP Empower Spell.......Free Standing over the paladin as you coup de grace him with maximized Enervation.......... PRICELESS!
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 09:03 AM	Emphasis Mine Gold is not that big of a deal, grow up. If you need items to make your character viable then you arent playing to your strengths(class abilities). This is why fighters are crap. Theres a reason I dont play with paladins or any class that conveys a sense that what they do is always right. Killing a paladin is worth losing exalted status or anything else every time... True Strike......On my spell list Shivering Touch........On my spell list Arcane Thesis: Shivering Touch.......Free Rod of Maximize.........54000 GP Empower Spell.......Free Standing over the paladin as you coup de grace him with maximized Enervation.......... PRICELESS! thats always funny to think that my paladin sleeps in his +3 elven chain of heavy fort and comfort. and the smite evil at the end of my holy advenger that follows that failed coup de grace is truely priceless.
Animae_Draconum 02-08-07, 09:45 AM	Just to end this in a civil manor... Spells>Weapons Rogues Paladins Fighters In-Game CoC Whiny Players Pastel Colors Dropped Cell Phone Calls Cheaty Dice Sprite Remix Green Apple Skittles Double Sided Tape Duke Basketball(GO HEELS!)
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 09:52 AM	Just to end this in a civil manor... Spells>Weapons Rogues Paladins Fighters In-Game CoC Whiny Players Pastel Colors Dropped Cell Phone Calls Cheaty Dice Sprite Remix Green Apple Skittles Double Sided Tape Duke Basketball(GO HEELS!) yeah whatever one day you'll learn to play then we all get scared
Animae_Draconum 02-08-07, 10:06 AM	This is going very far off topic, I get the feeling you are trying to incite a degree of anger within me. I am very aware of how to play but am willing to bet that what our respective groups finds acceptable would vary greatly. I accept that our playing styles are different and do not wish to proceed in this course of bickering, especially on an issue that has been argued many times and needs no more input from either of us. A_D
Throg 02-08-07, 12:40 PM	Well simply put your playing a Paladin wrong. Your detect evil is divine insight you trust w/o fail. If your pc has caught wind of evil then you should have detected. Should you have smited? Probably not. You're a Paladin not a moronic half-orc assassin. You however should seek celestial guidance. Lastly no pc can be forced good they must want it. (We're D&D geeks not the Catholic church.) Unless you commit and evil act like shoving an unwanted helm on there head. Easiest way to determain weather they seek Atonement is to cast Zone of Truth while they are asleep then wake them to discuss the matter. It's not really fair but it's not evil. If they show no remose consult with the party leader and have them disbanded. It's also gives you DM a spitefull NPC later. How can I play a paladin wrong when you have no idea on the setting in which I'm playing him? I must find out what he has done to become evil, but the Zone of Truth isn't perfect at all, and a good liar will just give half truths which are still truths. Anyone can figure out they're are being compelled by a spell to tell the truth after their first attempt to lie. Emphasis Mine Gold is not that big of a deal, grow up. If you need items to make your character viable then you arent playing to your strengths(class abilities). This is why fighters are crap. Theres a reason I dont play with paladins or any class that conveys a sense that what they do is always right. Killing a paladin is worth losing exalted status or anything else every time... True Strike......On my spell list Shivering Touch........On my spell list Arcane Thesis: Shivering Touch.......Free Rod of Maximize.........54000 GP Empower Spell.......Free Standing over the paladin as you coup de grace him with maximized Enervation.......... PRICELESS! Guess what? I'm not the one playing with you, so you shouldn't yell about paladins if it isn't part of the topic. I talked about the gold not because I care in the least, I said it because it was the ONLY thing evil that he's done so far, and it's not that evil... he could just say 'Oops, sorry I forgot, here you guys go.' He already pointed out OOC that if he's confronted with 'stealing' then he'll just put it off as an accident You're the one that brought it far off topic in the first place. I'll ask you to discontinue posting in this thread if all you're going to do is talk about your vendetta about Paladins. I don't have a right to kill his character, and he doesn't have a right to kill mine.
Animae_Draconum 02-08-07, 01:26 PM	In defense of LoNLinaChan, how are we supposed to know you are playing in a setting where paladins aren't held by a CoC unless you tell us. And lets see, you didn't until now, but thanks for the late addition. I understand that PvP is not ever an encouraged part of D&D, yet it goes against the standard CoC for paladins. I will ask a small favor of you before you continue posting topics...give the members of the board all relevant information, and in this instance I think not having such a strict CoC would be important. I think that will help avoid confusion about the setting you play in. FYI your DM is more than a little lax. In my own defense, you sir obviously cannot take a joke. And as for being off topic I believe even I recognized this in the post just before yours. You also may have noted that its not so much the paladin class that I hate, just the CoC that usually leads to them being douchebags that need to die. As for the evilness of your friends character, he's really not so evil, I'm actually tempted to agree with you on chaotic stupid. The campaign is busted and its all on the DM to fix it by saying, "hey buddy no evil characters, ok?" And as far as going off topic, your question was answered by me with a cheap and effective means of auto-shifting his alignment against his will, I believe Azar and a few others provide valid solutions as well, which you have ignored. The topic then shifted toward a discourse on how sanctify the wicked was considered good and from there onto a mess of various topics and most recently a little rant between me and LoNLinaChan. I apologize with great sincerity for derailing a thread from a question that was already answered in a variety of ways. If I come up with any other ways to shift alignent I'll be sure to post those so they can be rejected/ignored as well. A_D
Pajaul 02-08-07, 08:47 PM	Aside from all the Jibber jabber… Well, if he hasn't done anything evil... then... well he isn't evil. After all Evil is not a though or abstract here, nor is good, they are the physical manifestation of the forces that struggle for control in the universe. If he doesn't do something evil soon his alignment should already change to CN, via the DMs hand. You have to do evil to be evil, and you have to do good to be good. Can't just say you are evil and then only take a few gold that the party didn't miss anyway. What’s next? burning a few of the cookies he baked for orphans? SMITE SMITE SMITE! :) Relax, and speak to the Player and DM about it. Oh! and if you still can’t come to an agreement with them, try leading with example and or always being with the character so he can’t do any evil, that will keep him from being evil! Lead him not into temptation!
Throg 02-08-07, 10:19 PM	In defense of LoNLinaChan, how are we supposed to know you are playing in a setting where paladins aren't held by a CoC unless you tell us. And lets see, you didn't until now, but thanks for the late addition. I understand that PvP is not ever an encouraged part of D&D, yet it goes against the standard CoC for paladins. I will ask a small favor of you before you continue posting topics...give the members of the board all relevant information, and in this instance I think not having such a strict CoC would be important. I think that will help avoid confusion about the setting you play in. FYI your DM is more than a little lax. In my own defense, you sir obviously cannot take a joke. And as for being off topic I believe even I recognized this in the post just before yours. You also may have noted that its not so much the paladin class that I hate, just the CoC that usually leads to them being douchebags that need to die. As for the evilness of your friends character, he's really not so evil, I'm actually tempted to agree with you on chaotic stupid. The campaign is busted and its all on the DM to fix it by saying, "hey buddy no evil characters, ok?" And as far as going off topic, your question was answered by me with a cheap and effective means of auto-shifting his alignment against his will, I believe Azar and a few others provide valid solutions as well, which you have ignored. The topic then shifted toward a discourse on how sanctify the wicked was considered good and from there onto a mess of various topics and most recently a little rant between me and LoNLinaChan. I apologize with great sincerity for derailing a thread from a question that was already answered in a variety of ways. If I come up with any other ways to shift alignent I'll be sure to post those so they can be rejected/ignored as well. A_D In my second post, I said that I am looking for role-playing suggestions. And in case you couldn't tell, I was looking more for the best way to go about it in-character and not with a spell or a roll of the dice. I also said that I will indeed talk it over with the player before I even start to try things, which people suggested. I just didn't say outright, thanks for the suggestion. The way you phrased your post did in no way seem 'joking'. It may look obvious to you, but it did not to me. Maybe you should try to make better jokes next time. What I already thought about doing is exactly what the people proposing to do IC, the rest of the suggestions aren't within my power at the current moment, or are just too silly. I will apologize for not talking about the laxness of the rules, but really if it was strict, the DM would have told me not to bother with a Paladin in the first place. If we went by the strict CoC, I should have fallen the second I agreed to work with this evil guy. If you want to know further, there aren't multiple gods, just a singular good religion 'The Heavens', which is the good guys rolled into one pretty much. The suggestions so far: a lvl 9 spell which would take a year - Takes a Year, which doesn't work too well, and as pointed out isn't really supposed to be used on PCs. The Helmet trick - Forcing a character to change his alignment, which is still evil in my eyes. Atonement - I still have to talk with the player first to see how he would feel about me working to change his character. It -could- be an option later, if his character wants to repent IC. Talk with the DM and Player - I've said I'm going to do this before the next session, I don't have opportunities to see either before we play. Those are really the only things I was suggested to do, more or less, I've said I'd probably just go with talking with the DM and player, then go about showing him through my own selfless actions that there's more to life then personal gain, and much more benefit.