Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwado 06-18-07, 02:45 AM	Hey all, Just recently I played a campaign as an 8th level bard. The DM wanted us to enter a dungeon, unfortunately it was under a keep and the only way the guards would let us in is if we gave up all of our weapons and armor. Now me as a new player was still very stuck on the idea (which I am going to change very very soon) is that skills are only required when demanded. We tried every which way into the keep that we could think of and nothing worked. Can't break in, can't convince the guards that we are friend. It was simply put, 'no weapon, no armor.' Every other character that was with me was thinking the same thing for 3 hours straight. "How do we get in with our weapons" because in order for us to complete our goal (which was to kill a green dragon that they didn't know about which was laying dorment under there keep" was to have our weapons. This is one of those times where one must 'think critically' and not one person thought, 'Oh hey instead of thinking how we are going to get in WITH our weapons, how about we think of how we are going to get our weapons back once we are inside.' Of course since we don't have a rogue in the group, with me playing the bard would have had to take initiative and retrieve said weapons once we were inside. When the DM finally got frustrated with everyone else, everyone looked at me because I should have thought about it. How is it my fault that I didn't think of it... if someone else thought of it they should have said something. However, according to the cleric that information would have been 'out of game' who claimed to have thought of that long before the DM said something. If we are all trying to think strategically here wouldn't it be wise for everyone to speak up? Am I wrong? Right?
Kouk 06-18-07, 03:04 AM	I don't understand the part about skills in the first paragraph, but in general people should communicate, of course. If this group is heavy-roleplay then to "prime the pump" you can strike up an in-character conversation and ask them for ideas. "Friends, I am afraid I am out of ideas. Do you all have any thoughts?". Though in general if someone actually thought of something, they would volunteer it themselves, or hint heavily, "Gee, I wish my stupid fighter was able to figure out that the answer to this puzzle was "cheese". I can only hope one of the smarter characters is able to figure that much out *nudge nudge*." Especially if you are spending hours doing nothing. Just from what you described, it sounds like the DM put you in a very difficult position in which there was only one solution. It is always a mistake to only have one solution, he might be new. If all else fails, you can say "Hey, my character is pretty smart. Maybe he knows what to do?" and make an INT check. Or, go make some contacts in town and ask around there. A thieves guild, or a wizard may be able to give you a solution.
BroadStreetBully 06-18-07, 03:16 AM	those are all good suggestions as well. what you could also do is force the DM's hand so that something DOES happen. if your characters are convinced the dragon needs to die, there really wouldn't be anything wrong with knocking the guard out (using the subdual damage rules), tying him up and putting him a safe place. maybe the DM wouldn't want you to do that, but if the DM wants something to happen he should recognize that it's time for him to "kick in the door". If you're out of ideas as a PC, "kicking in the door" would at least give the DM something to react to.
Salla 06-18-07, 03:48 AM	Well, someone should definitely have asked for or asked to make a Diplomacy check or two, that's for darn certain. :)
Gwado 06-18-07, 04:11 AM	To clarify about the skills, basically I am not used to the whole 'hide and move silent, pick pocket' that bit. But I had never thought of doing an int check of course I'm sure this DM would say that I'd have to figure it out myself. He's been playing a lot time however if I had to name a drawback of his, it would be that he expects us to do things a certain way and if it doesn't go that way the game comes to a screeching hault. Playing a Bard I guess I really haven't thought of it from another characters point of view in realizing that 'Yes, the PLAYER thought about it, but did the character think about it.' and personally when it comes to strategy and basic skills like, 'Hey let's just go steal our weapons back once we are inside.' As dumb as it sounds I never thought of that, but someone else did... but there character 'didn't' so they never said anything. Then I get blamed? It's so frustrating!
claypigeons 06-18-07, 04:36 AM	To clarify about the skills, basically I am not used to the whole 'hide and move silent, pick pocket' that bit. But I had never thought of doing an int check of course I'm sure this DM would say that I'd have to figure it out myself. He's been playing a lot time however if I had to name a drawback of his, it would be that he expects us to do things a certain way and if it doesn't go that way the game comes to a screeching hault. Playing a Bard I guess I really haven't thought of it from another characters point of view in realizing that 'Yes, the PLAYER thought about it, but did the character think about it.' and personally when it comes to strategy and basic skills like, 'Hey let's just go steal our weapons back once we are inside.' As dumb as it sounds I never thought of that, but someone else did... but there character 'didn't' so they never said anything. Then I get blamed? It's so frustrating! Think outside the box, if you can. A lot of times, the most obvious answer is the right one. If you've seen Lord of the Rings... "Speak Friend and enter...." Also, as a bard, you could (probably) have just put them to sleep, or Suggested that they allow you to pass. Also, as a DM, I've been known to do things like this: A guard tells you that you cannot enter the castle with your weapons and armour. But, that doesn't mean you can't ask for them back once you've crossed the threshold. :P
Kouk 06-18-07, 06:19 AM	Short of knocking out or disabling the guards, how exactly were you expected to get your weapons back in? They were entirely relying on "We'll leave our weapons with you and go on ahead. Then, you figure out some way to sneak past the guards by yourself, and give us our stuff back." ? That's just plain moronic, and by what you have said, the DM is an uncreative railroader.
Thanuir 06-18-07, 07:29 AM	What your GM did is called pixelhunt. There is only one way to continue, his way. It is quite annoying. I suggest talking to your GM and saying that you think there should generally be more than one solution to any given problem, and it is more fun to everyone if the GM does not demand that players discover his/her solution. Try not to be hostile. If he disagrees, well, there's not much to do about it.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 08:03 AM	Well, if you had Invisiblity, you could have cast it on the weapons. Some people forget that Invisiblity can be used on object as well as creatures. There's great utility in having a Permanently Invisible +1 dagger, if you can afford it.
Kimokeo 06-18-07, 08:10 AM	There is always more than one way to resolve a situation. I bet a wagon loaded with a ballistae would get some attention from the guards. How about a bribe? Or a threat? Hostages? Pay someone else to distract the guards. Bring snakes. Guards like snakes. Or better yet, vodka. Change of the guard? I always carry a Bane sewing needle. 1pt damage still adds 2d6.
Thanuir 06-18-07, 08:13 AM	Out-of-game problem. In-game solutions simply will not work.
Karish 06-18-07, 08:25 AM	Assassinate the guards, infiltrate the facility, and eliminate the target before you're noticed. ...Oh wait. You're not evil, are you. D:
Karish 06-18-07, 08:26 AM	Well, if you had Invisiblity, you could have cast it on the weapons. Some people forget that Invisiblity can be used on object as well as creatures. There's great utility in having a Permanently Invisible +1 dagger, if you can afford it. Might want some means of knowing where you put the thing though. Take a level of warlock, get see the unseen and a free eldritch blast ability?
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 08:33 AM	Might want some means of knowing where you put the thing though. Take a level of warlock, get see the unseen and a free eldritch blast ability? 1: It's still there; you can still feel it. And if you can use a dagger while you and all your stuff is invisible, you can use it when just the dagger is invisible. 2: I only allow 2 base classes and one pretige class per character in my games, and I build all my characters the same way, no matter whose game it is.
Gleepwurp 06-18-07, 08:37 AM	It does seem sort of strange. If I try to put myself into the situation, I guess I could understand if the guard had orders not to let anyone past the gate with weapons --- seems a sensible way of keeping assassins out. On the other hand, if your group MUST get into the dungeon to kill the dragon and the only way in is through the castle... and the DM has allowed for just ONE way for the players to get their weapons past the guard, it seems likely that unless the players manage to 'guess' how the DM originally envisioned doing it that there will be some long frustrating moments in which the players sit around scratching their heads. When I DM, I try to allow players to come up with creative solutions on their own. If I throw a little roadblock in their path and they come up with a creative solution, I let it play out, figure out a dice roll and go with it. I try not to get too stuck on what I think the players should do because that is the essence of the game -- allowing the players to figure it out. So if they had figured out a way to smuggle their weapons in, like hiding them inside a wine barrel and posing as merchants with a wagon full of wine, or disguised themselves as guards and marched in, or climbed over the wall at night or something else, I would roll the dice to see if the guard got suspicious, or if someone saw them climbing over the wall, etc. I realize that your PC was a bard--- but in the REAL world YOU are not a bard... so if the DM is expecting you to have knowledge of your character class beyond what is written in the PHB, I think his expectations are unrealistic. In real life I have sat on a horse and ridden it around, but I haven't spent a week in the saddle and I don't know how to take care of a horse... I've been to the ren faire and swung a sword around but I don't really know how to fight with a sword --- a 12th century man-at-arms could kill me in a minute (unless I could out run him -- probably unlikely though; he might be in much better physical shape than I am simply because he walked or rode everywhere and did everything by hand while I drive a car and use machines). But that man-at-arms probably couldn't read or write or do most complex math or figure out how to buy a coke from a soda machine. My point is that as a DM I often pour a lot of energy into my creations and spend a lot of time visualizing them in my minds eye --- but my players don't share the intimate knowledge of my campaign that I have unless I reveal it to them bit by bit --- and in most cases, I should not assume that they will absorb everything that I say. They also don't (and shouldn't be expected to) know everything their PC knows. If you are playing a bard, your bard might know how to play a lute -- that doesn't mean you need to know how to play a lute. A magic lock where the key is hidden in some strange place or players need to say the password (which is written into a poem or clue somewhere -- like the Moria Gate someone mentioned above) is a good D&D puzzle because players can put their heads together and figure it out. A combination lock like you would find on a high school gym locker where you need to enter three numbers is, in my opinion, a bad D&D puzzle. The first will (hopefully) have all the players looking for clues and sharing information. The second will just lead to a boring situation where players might try to enter a series of numbers for a while -- "we try 12, 08, 24; nope? OK, 13, 08, 24..." and then they will give up and walk away.
Phrennzy 06-18-07, 12:31 PM	It is unfair/unrealistic for the DM or players to expect you to be able to think exactly like your character would. It is possible/probably that your own mental stats and life experience are not the same as your character. I am pretty smart. I am not 18 Int smart. I can only play an 18 Int Wiz so well. To compensate, I ask the other players to speak up. An 18 Int wizard would be as smart as a group of 5 people. In cases where you the player is absolutely stumped, ask everyone for input and explain that you have no ideas. If they are stumped, turn to the DM and flat out ask for a roll or something to let you get a clue. Otherwise it's a game night spent in frustration.
Kimokeo 06-18-07, 03:59 PM	There's great utility in having a Permanently Invisible +1 dagger, if you can afford it. I prefer the +1 sewing needle with any add-on you can think of. No need to hide it nor find it.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-18-07, 04:40 PM	The solution to your problem lies in this hilarious comic: When they force you to give up your weapons... (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922)
celtredleg 06-18-07, 07:00 PM	Somewhere after the first hour wasted on this, I do believe I would wonder off and find something else to mess with. Find a bar, pick a fight that sort of thing. I can do crossword puzzles and stuf like that when nobody else is around. Let the DM fight his own dragon as he is not going to let you do it.
bob_the_great 06-18-07, 10:18 PM	the way that i've always played is that problems are solved by the players. having a low int doesn't prevent a player from contributing, just like having a high int doesn't let a player make an int check to solve problems. i'd discuss this with the group. i think the player who didn't speak up has a different view than most. i assume the dm feels the way i've experienced, but in case he doesn't i'll offer this. if the dm disproves of dumb characters contributing ideas than he would have to allow smart characters to make int checks. if dumb characters are penalized then smart characters need to be rewarded. (warning: rambling story. skip if you don't care) Now let me share my most recent experience with a pixelhunt: we were at low level and needed to travel to some islands. we get passage on a boat only to have it attacked by a high-level water wizard who for no good reason lets us live with a warning to not travel on the water or he'll kill us. so we're stuck on an island only inhabited by primative locals. we have no magical means of transportation and there are no NPCs who can help us. after a few hours of wandering the island and getting nowhere another players says "oh, I have this necklace" to which the DM lets out a loud and frustrated "FINALLY!" turns out the DM gave another player a magical chariot necklace. None of the rest of us knew about it because he was the most secretive DM I've ever met. that was strike 1. strike 2 was two or three 6-hour sessions culminating in an anti-climax, only to be told by the DM that we would have known we were wasting our time if we had just paid attention to a riddle which was introduced before most of us had joined the game (and the one player who was around for it swore he read it once, quickly, and therefore no one was able to write it down. the dm printed it out for us after the fact though). strike 3 was the DMs character for a one-shot run by another player, a bisexual druid dressed like mr. slave from southpark who hit on our characters and NPCs at every turn. He put a plot-important jewel in an uncomfortable place and told us that if we wanted it we had to go get it (sadly, my half-orc who once intimidated an NPC by casually eating his ally while the fighter questioned him was my character for the other game and not available to get the jewel). worst. game. ever.
danielinthewolvesden 06-19-07, 03:52 AM	H The DM wanted us to enter a dungeon, unfortunately it was under a keep and the only way the guards would let us in is if we gave up all of our weapons and armor. 1. Why did the guards insist on this?:confused: 2. Ifso, why bother entering the dungeon?:confused: It is perfectly OK to say "Well, if there is no way to enter here except give up 90% of everything we own, then, thanks but no thanks. Hey guys let's go back to the inn and ask about quests and adventures."
sbattisti 06-19-07, 09:33 AM	Did I miss the part where you say, "Hey, there's a green dragon lying dormant under your keep, we REALLY need to keep our weapons! No, seriously! I'm not kidding!" :D Anyway, other than that quip, not much to add here. It does sound like you're on the DM Railroad here. Sorta reminds me of the guy in another thread who was a "smart DM" because he designed all of his traps so that they couldn't be disarmed without being triggered. (WTF?) I think the DM here has painted you into a corner, and the game ground to a halt because you didn't happen to think of the one solution he was thinking of. Not a horrible thing - if we can get him to see the error of his ways without getting defensive, which is often tricky with DMs. Invite him to the thread! Perhaps he can shed some more light onto other possible solutions as well. Steve
TwistedPuppy 06-19-07, 09:38 AM	I'd think that Invisibility + Spider Climb + a Bag of Holding would be more than adequate to get your weapons and armor into the keep. All of which at 8th level should not be a reach for your party to have access to. Have you tried an illusion to make your armor and weapons look like normal clothing and walking sticks? For that matter, if your bard has ranks in forgery you might be able to use that to get your weapons in. While it's easy to say the DM was railroading you - and maybe he was - I don't think it is as clear as some posters would make it out to be. OP: exactly what have you guys tried to do? Bribes? Gather Information?
Gleepwurp 06-19-07, 09:54 AM	strike 3 was the DMs character for a one-shot run by another player, a bisexual druid dressed like mr. slave from southpark who hit on our characters and NPCs at every turn. He put a plot-important jewel in an uncomfortable place and told us that if we wanted it we had to go get it... <mr slave>Jeethus Krithst!</mr slave> I'd use a grease spell and mage hand to get the gemstone... If that failed, I'd send in my hamster familiar... "Go on now, Lemmiwinks! Do it for the team!" <mr slave>Jeethus Krithst!</mr slave>
Heretic296 06-19-07, 10:44 AM	Well it's called being railroaded. Only one way to get what you want and thats the DM's way. It's not uncommon for DM's to use this but in my humble opinion it should be something that occurs infrequently. Some times a DM just doesn't find the right way to hook the players into doing something counterintuitive (Though a bareknuckle bout with a green dragon would appear to be suicidal).Usually, the DM offers a treat for cooperation. You may have given up your weapons but if you look hard enough you'll find the Armory. He might also be depriving you of your weapons to charge up the difficulty of the encounter. I understand you're frustration with this but you really need to understand that this means of driving people to do something they don't really want to do is part of D&D culture. I can't tell you how many products from back in the day shoved hooks on to unsuspecting players. If you're DM is old school that may be part of his process of play. DM's often think they've planned accordingly and believe that players should be able to process through the challenges that they have presented. The problem is that players cannot read the DM's mind. This is not just a your campaign problem occasionally it's an issue in all campaigns. Assumption of knowledge to the solution is just not a good idea. This is why we have skills and feats to help our characters solve thier problems. It's the DM's responsibility to help the players find a solution. (A possible soultion to this problem could have been: Players learn that Sentry A really likes to drink and that Senrty B does whatever Sentry A tells him. Perhaps bringing Sentry A some refreshing spirits would make him amenable to the players demands.) Skills may need to be used prior to getting to the site of the heart of the adventure but sometimes players don't think about this and it's up to the DM to provide them with an opportunity to learn what they need to do to get the job done. You as a player should talk to your DM about this process. Make sure you focus on the positive before you address the problem. Trust me it avoids alot of social complications. Let him know that you're greatful that he has that much faith in you as a player. Then just tell him that you don't know what to do and are looking for some direction with this problem. Explain to him that though you may be an experienced player you are not you're character. There are in game means for your character to deal with the situation that you the player lack in real life. Since it's a solution you're seeking you want to fix the problem not the blame so avoid using the "Well I can't read your mind." statement. Don't ask for the solution but ask for the means to solve the problem though game mechanics.
Downtym 06-19-07, 11:15 AM	Just recently I played a campaign as an 8th level bard. The DM wanted us to enter a dungeon, unfortunately it was under a keep and the only way the guards would let us in is if we gave up all of our weapons and armor. Now me as a new player was still very stuck on the idea (which I am going to change very very soon) is that skills are only required when demanded. We tried every which way into the keep that we could think of and nothing worked. Can't break in, can't convince the guards that we are friend. It was simply put, 'no weapon, no armor.' Every other character that was with me was thinking the same thing for 3 hours straight. "How do we get in with our weapons" because in order for us to complete our goal (which was to kill a green dragon that they didn't know about which was laying dorment under there keep" was to have our weapons. Guard: You can't go in with your weapons or armor. PC's: We need our weapons, please? Here's some gold to shut up. (Diplomacy) Guard: No. You can't go in with your weapons or armor. PC's: Uh, your boss needs you over there where you cannot possibly see us sneak in. (Bluff) Guard: ...You can't go in with your weapons or armor. PC's: We're not even going to try Intimidate, so let's try this: There's a green dragon living down there. Now, you can either let us go down with our weapons and armor and kill it OR we're going to take the hundreds of gold we have in our bags and go down to the tavern and get drunk while we wait on the dragon to finish whatever evil plan it has going. Hopefully, it will involve coming out of the dungeon and eating your stupid face so we can finally save the town from the dragon you so idiotically seem to want to defend. (The Truth - no skill check required). If that doesn't work, find out everyone's alignment. The guy with the Neutral or Evil alignment gets the option of going in solo and killing the guard while everyone else in the group claims plausible deniability.
BW0222 06-19-07, 01:41 PM	Gwado, The DM wanted us to enter a dungeon, unfortunately it was under a keep and the only way the guards would let us in is if we gave up all of our weapons and armor. Now me as a new player was still very stuck on the idea (which I am going to change very very soon) is that skills are only required when demanded. We tried every which way into the keep that we could think of and nothing worked. Can't break in, can't convince the guards that we are friend. It was simply put, 'no weapon, no armor.' That is definitely the sign of a not so good DM. There are a million ways to get past guards. Examples: * Tell them the truth. "There is an evil dragon below." Offer to get a cleric to cast zone of truth. * Go get permission. Go talk to someone and explain it to them. * Visit churches, guilds, contact family members, set up meeting with nobles, etc. and try convincing them that you need to get in with weapons. * Ask the guards to provide an escort. Fine, then sent in twenty guards with us if you think we are going to do something wrong. * Ask the guards to provide an escort which can hold your weapons. * Bluff, forgery, and/or disguise. * Hide checks. Conceal the weapons. * Bribes * Blackmail, extortion. * Intimidate. * Charm the guards. Charm someone in authority. * Subdue the guards. * Blindness, color spray, * Distractions. Start a nearby fire, have some kids toss a bucket of slop on them at night and run off, etc. * Get a job as a lock smith, pick pocket several guard's keys, and then show up saying that with all the missing keys you need to change the locks. Hide the weapons inside your work cases. * Buy a haversack or bag of holding. * Try shrink item or similiar magic. * Hire someone with d-door, blink, or teleport. Go in without the weapons. Have them come in later with your weapons invisible (if necessary). * Hold a protest. Go and convince common folk that there is a dragon threat under the castle. Hand out fliers, hire town criers, tell stories in the inn, etc. Arrange for a big protest outside of the gates. Walk back and forth carrying signs demanding that an armed group be sent into the caves to get the dragon. * Join the guard! Now, if the DM says "No. That won't work" Then ask, how your PC would know that? Is some god telling me that we can't subdue them? Finally, just say well my character thinks is would work and then try as many of the above methods as you can. If it takes three gaming sessions to try each of them, do it. Finally, if you DM simply (no matter what you do) allow you to get weapons inside. Then leave. Just say, "We'll send a letter to the Baron about the dragon threat and then lets check out the square to see if anyone is hiring adventurers for some other mission." When the DM finally got frustrated with everyone else, everyone looked at me because I should have thought about it. How is it my fault that I didn't think of it... if someone else thought of it they should have said something. Answer in character. "What? I'm a playright? What the heck do I know about stealing weapons? I'm not a smuggler or criminal." If we are all trying to think strategically here wouldn't it be wise for everyone to speak up? Am I wrong? Right? Of course. I assume you are all sitting down and openly discussing all your options in private. If a player wants to hold off on something he thought about (presumably so a player whose character is more likely to think about something gets it first, or because he wouldn't suggest such a thing)... fine. However, you can't blame someone for not thinking of something.
Pyro_Azer 06-19-07, 05:09 PM	SUGGESTION Sorry had to get it out of my system.