Keen + Improved Crit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Keen + Improved Crit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WCH
09-27-05, 10:35 PM I know what the rules say, but how do you personally rule this? Seems reasonable to me to allow diminishing returns... like if it's already a keen weapon, taking improved crit only improves the threat range by one. That way it still does something, but you can't get a 17-20 Heavy Pick.

Huh, I thought I was posting on the DM board... my bad...
CaptainNifty
09-27-05, 10:43 PM There is a Calamar book called Torn Asunder: Critical Hits it is agreat book that gives rules for critical effects and feats for improving "Improved Critical". Since feats are more precious than gold I rule that the rules stand on keen.
Merestil Haye
09-28-05, 05:04 AM I know what the rules say, but how do you personally rule this? Seems reasonable to me to allow diminishing returns... like if it's already a keen weapon, taking improved crit only improves the threat range by one. That way it still does something, but you can't get a 17-20 Heavy Pick.

Huh, I thought I was posting on the DM board... my bad...At present I play it the way the rules say, because I do not want to unbalance the game in favour of high-multipler weapons any further than it already is.

You could stack the effects in 3.0, but they removed it in the transition to 3.5.

From your comment I suspect you are misapplying the rules to stack the two effects, as in 3.0 if you had a Keen pick and Improved Crit (Pick) the result would be what you state your houserule would be. Both would increase the threat range by one.

The rule is that Keen increases the threat range by an amount equal to the original threat range, and Improved Critical increases the threat range by an amount equal to the original threat range. They do not multiply.
Dragen White
09-28-05, 11:10 AM ok how is it broken, infact i think it is more than genourous. For example, keen and improved crit do exactly the same thing, one is just an ability you can use whenever you want, and you have to pick the weapon, you don't get it for all weapons, where as with keen, you do'nt have to spend precious feat slots for this ability. I used to want to have both to, but honestly it was to break the game and get a 18-20 great axe. ughh or even if you think about how broken a scyth would be... Anyway if a character wants to strike crits more often, he must either find a balance or go for damage, or all crits. A scimitar with improved crit or keen is already a 15-20 diffrence of 6 from 3 starting at 18-20, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (six numbers incase clarrifacation is needed.) and that right there is practicly a 25% chance to get a crit (or i should say threat because you still might not overcome the armor class) or 1 in four rolls, come on thats awsome already, if your a dm and you want them lopping of heads every other enemy then go ahead, but thats why the rules don't allow a 50% chance of doing so. I know all this because i have already gone thru this many times with dm and fellow pc, ughh the headache, anyway its your game, but the rulebook is more than fair i think, (and for automatic hits, all should know, incase newbs or inexperianced, a threat is never an automatic hit, unless you beat the armor class with the hit, even if you roll an 18 on a scimitar, if you can't beat a 23, you do not apply damage, this is only the exception with nat 20's), and its just an opinion, the feat is worth taking over the magicl keen ability, choose a favored weapon , and be able to use it even in anti magic zones, or etc. and save a spell slot for another ability like vorpral yeah!!!
Brimshack
09-28-05, 01:30 PM I wouldn't personally suggest the principle is broken, but I personally prefer to allow them to partially stack. As a basic house rule, I add 1 to doubled threat range when a player has both. This enables the player to get some benefit out of the feat without substantially increasing the chance. I don't think it's necessary, but I don't see a problem with it either. Just a simple house rule modification.
BeyondFated
09-28-05, 02:02 PM I'm 100% for the stacking of Keen and Imp. Crit.
Red_Ninja
09-28-05, 02:16 PM yes stack them, also have your NPC (villain) drow weapons master use this combination, and his apprentice, and his hand selected and battle hardened fighters guild...
Fanged Fremont
09-28-05, 03:16 PM There's an article somewhere that showed why they should indeed stack. Showed how a greatsword wielder was still doing on average more damage than a keen rapier with improved crit twf or some such. Somebody got the link?
Ozymandias V.
09-28-05, 05:11 PM Scimitar: 1d6 18-20/x2
Keen Scimitar: 1d6 15-20/x2
Keen Scimitar w/Imp.Crit.: 1d6 12-20/x2

Scythe: 2d4 20/x4
Keen Scythe: 2d4 19-20/x4
Keen Scythe w/Imp.Crit.: 2d4 18-20/x4

This is what would happen if they stacked. This is bad. Especially when you get feats and enhancements involved that rely on crits to function.
Acheron
09-28-05, 05:26 PM I wouldn't personally suggest the principle is broken, but I personally prefer to allow them to partially stack. As a basic house rule, I add 1 to doubled threat range when a player has both. This enables the player to get some benefit out of the feat without substantially increasing the chance. I don't think it's necessary, but I don't see a problem with it either. Just a simple house rule modification.

Exactly. If you double the crit. range, then rogues take on a whole new meaing. Something we are forgeting here is that when a rogue flanks he gets to use his sneak attack (the rogues best friend affter the wealthy noble ;) ) almost every single time. Add in the crit (12-20 with rapier) and that's a whole lot of damage with just 1 attack. Now think what they could do with 3 or 4 attacks, like :OMG! damage.
Vaalingrade Ashland
09-28-05, 05:43 PM You have to confirm and hit to crit
You have to confirm and hit to crit
You have to confirm and hit to crit
You have to confirm and hit to crit
You have to confirm and hit to crit

This should be stapled to the forehead of whoever made this moroonic rule.

Keen is a magical property of the weapon. Improved Critcal is the skill of the character. They are not the same thing.

There is no balance issue, as you are paying a feat and an enchantment for it and its less effective than other legal combinations.

Further, this ruling makes keen worthless past level nine as Improved crit makes every weapon of that type keen for you and you get no benefit from keening ever.
Nom
09-28-05, 06:05 PM Sean K Reynolds posted a very interesting rant on why allowing keen and Improved Critical to stack did not unbalance the rapier. Unfortunately, this misses the point.

The problem is not high range weapons, it is high multiplier weapons, and it is more stylistic than balance. A rapier with a 12-20/x2 crit range is likely to miss out on a sizeable portion of that range on many attacks. When it does crit, it will do double damage. A scythe with an 18-20/x4 crit range will rarely have its range reduced, and when it does crit will do x4 damage. Due to crit range clipping, the scythe is provably better than the rapier, and on a successful crit (which is 3x more likely) will be a lot more likely to cause massive shifts in the current state of battle.

Whether the above is a balance problem is debatable. What is provable is that weapons with small crit ranges benefit more from crit range improvements than those with large ranges, which isn't really what is supposed to happen.
Bud Green
09-28-05, 06:27 PM There's an article somewhere that showed why they should indeed stack. Showed how a greatsword wielder was still doing on average more damage than a keen rapier with improved crit twf or some such. Somebody got the link?

So...they should stack because rapier should do more damage than greatsword?
75RD Drum Clip
09-28-05, 07:02 PM IMC, keen + imp crit do stack. Players that consistently select weapons like the Scimitar find that sundering becomes a more prevelent versus them.
WCH
09-28-05, 07:30 PM Just as an added point... to test out the balance of the system I created two lvl 12 fighters, one TWF with kukris, the other with a dire pick (two handed, d10 piercing, x4 crit), and calculated average damage per round. Giving them both in the area of 27k gold, the kukri guy got a +1 icy burst kukri, a +1 flaming kukri and a mithral shirt. The picker got a +3 breastplate and a +1 shocking burst dire pick. Kukris got base 17 Dex and 14 Str, Picker got 17 Str and 14 Dex. Both used their +3 from levels on their higher stat.

Result of this is both having AC 21, same hitpoints (didn't calculate), same other stats. Feat selection was fairly obvious (core feats only -- only reason I used a dire pick was for balance issues, as I needed a two handed x4 weapon with no special abilities like trip, which is balanced at d10 damage). Since the Picker has a +5 Str modifier and a two handed weapon, I ignored the ambiguity in the rules over 1.5xstr mod to damage by applying 7.5 to damage, rather than making a decision.

For the kukri user, therefore, average damage on a normal hit is 13, or 25.25 on a critical hit. For the Picker, average damage on a normal hit is 21.25, or a whooping 92 on a critical hit. This huge difference is, of course, balanced by the fact that, thanks to TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF, the Kukri user has twice as many attacks per round.

Some number crunching later, this what I came up with:
For dual kukris, average damage per round versus AC 21 is 60.03
For a dire pick, average damage per round versus AC 21 is 62.82

Conclusion: Large multipliers are very much balanced with large threat range as is. Damage dealt by two kukris is very, very close to the damage dealt by a dire pick. Therefore, doing anything to upset this balance by throwing a stackable Keen into the mix would be unwise, as it would make the insanely powerful 92 damage critical hit significantly more common.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WCH 09-27-05, 10:35 PM	I know what the rules say, but how do you personally rule this? Seems reasonable to me to allow diminishing returns... like if it's already a keen weapon, taking improved crit only improves the threat range by one. That way it still does something, but you can't get a 17-20 Heavy Pick. Huh, I thought I was posting on the DM board... my bad...
CaptainNifty 09-27-05, 10:43 PM	There is a Calamar book called Torn Asunder: Critical Hits it is agreat book that gives rules for critical effects and feats for improving "Improved Critical". Since feats are more precious than gold I rule that the rules stand on keen.
Merestil Haye 09-28-05, 05:04 AM	I know what the rules say, but how do you personally rule this? Seems reasonable to me to allow diminishing returns... like if it's already a keen weapon, taking improved crit only improves the threat range by one. That way it still does something, but you can't get a 17-20 Heavy Pick. Huh, I thought I was posting on the DM board... my bad...At present I play it the way the rules say, because I do not want to unbalance the game in favour of high-multipler weapons any further than it already is. You could stack the effects in 3.0, but they removed it in the transition to 3.5. From your comment I suspect you are misapplying the rules to stack the two effects, as in 3.0 if you had a Keen pick and Improved Crit (Pick) the result would be what you state your houserule would be. Both would increase the threat range by one. The rule is that Keen increases the threat range by an amount equal to the original threat range, and Improved Critical increases the threat range by an amount equal to the original threat range. They do not multiply.
Dragen White 09-28-05, 11:10 AM	ok how is it broken, infact i think it is more than genourous. For example, keen and improved crit do exactly the same thing, one is just an ability you can use whenever you want, and you have to pick the weapon, you don't get it for all weapons, where as with keen, you do'nt have to spend precious feat slots for this ability. I used to want to have both to, but honestly it was to break the game and get a 18-20 great axe. ughh or even if you think about how broken a scyth would be... Anyway if a character wants to strike crits more often, he must either find a balance or go for damage, or all crits. A scimitar with improved crit or keen is already a 15-20 diffrence of 6 from 3 starting at 18-20, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (six numbers incase clarrifacation is needed.) and that right there is practicly a 25% chance to get a crit (or i should say threat because you still might not overcome the armor class) or 1 in four rolls, come on thats awsome already, if your a dm and you want them lopping of heads every other enemy then go ahead, but thats why the rules don't allow a 50% chance of doing so. I know all this because i have already gone thru this many times with dm and fellow pc, ughh the headache, anyway its your game, but the rulebook is more than fair i think, (and for automatic hits, all should know, incase newbs or inexperianced, a threat is never an automatic hit, unless you beat the armor class with the hit, even if you roll an 18 on a scimitar, if you can't beat a 23, you do not apply damage, this is only the exception with nat 20's), and its just an opinion, the feat is worth taking over the magicl keen ability, choose a favored weapon , and be able to use it even in anti magic zones, or etc. and save a spell slot for another ability like vorpral yeah!!!
Brimshack 09-28-05, 01:30 PM	I wouldn't personally suggest the principle is broken, but I personally prefer to allow them to partially stack. As a basic house rule, I add 1 to doubled threat range when a player has both. This enables the player to get some benefit out of the feat without substantially increasing the chance. I don't think it's necessary, but I don't see a problem with it either. Just a simple house rule modification.
BeyondFated 09-28-05, 02:02 PM	I'm 100% for the stacking of Keen and Imp. Crit.
Red_Ninja 09-28-05, 02:16 PM	yes stack them, also have your NPC (villain) drow weapons master use this combination, and his apprentice, and his hand selected and battle hardened fighters guild...
Fanged Fremont 09-28-05, 03:16 PM	There's an article somewhere that showed why they should indeed stack. Showed how a greatsword wielder was still doing on average more damage than a keen rapier with improved crit twf or some such. Somebody got the link?
Ozymandias V. 09-28-05, 05:11 PM	Scimitar: 1d6 18-20/x2 Keen Scimitar: 1d6 15-20/x2 Keen Scimitar w/Imp.Crit.: 1d6 12-20/x2 Scythe: 2d4 20/x4 Keen Scythe: 2d4 19-20/x4 Keen Scythe w/Imp.Crit.: 2d4 18-20/x4 This is what would happen if they stacked. This is bad. Especially when you get feats and enhancements involved that rely on crits to function.
Acheron 09-28-05, 05:26 PM	I wouldn't personally suggest the principle is broken, but I personally prefer to allow them to partially stack. As a basic house rule, I add 1 to doubled threat range when a player has both. This enables the player to get some benefit out of the feat without substantially increasing the chance. I don't think it's necessary, but I don't see a problem with it either. Just a simple house rule modification. Exactly. If you double the crit. range, then rogues take on a whole new meaing. Something we are forgeting here is that when a rogue flanks he gets to use his sneak attack (the rogues best friend affter the wealthy noble ;) ) almost every single time. Add in the crit (12-20 with rapier) and that's a whole lot of damage with just 1 attack. Now think what they could do with 3 or 4 attacks, like :OMG! damage.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-28-05, 05:43 PM	You have to confirm and hit to crit You have to confirm and hit to crit You have to confirm and hit to crit You have to confirm and hit to crit You have to confirm and hit to crit This should be stapled to the forehead of whoever made this moroonic rule. Keen is a magical property of the weapon. Improved Critcal is the skill of the character. They are not the same thing. There is no balance issue, as you are paying a feat and an enchantment for it and its less effective than other legal combinations. Further, this ruling makes keen worthless past level nine as Improved crit makes every weapon of that type keen for you and you get no benefit from keening ever.
Nom 09-28-05, 06:05 PM	Sean K Reynolds posted a very interesting rant on why allowing keen and Improved Critical to stack did not unbalance the rapier. Unfortunately, this misses the point. The problem is not high range weapons, it is high multiplier weapons, and it is more stylistic than balance. A rapier with a 12-20/x2 crit range is likely to miss out on a sizeable portion of that range on many attacks. When it does crit, it will do double damage. A scythe with an 18-20/x4 crit range will rarely have its range reduced, and when it does crit will do x4 damage. Due to crit range clipping, the scythe is provably better than the rapier, and on a successful crit (which is 3x more likely) will be a lot more likely to cause massive shifts in the current state of battle. Whether the above is a balance problem is debatable. What is provable is that weapons with small crit ranges benefit more from crit range improvements than those with large ranges, which isn't really what is supposed to happen.
Bud Green 09-28-05, 06:27 PM	There's an article somewhere that showed why they should indeed stack. Showed how a greatsword wielder was still doing on average more damage than a keen rapier with improved crit twf or some such. Somebody got the link? So...they should stack because rapier should do more damage than greatsword?
75RD Drum Clip 09-28-05, 07:02 PM	IMC, keen + imp crit do stack. Players that consistently select weapons like the Scimitar find that sundering becomes a more prevelent versus them.
WCH 09-28-05, 07:30 PM	Just as an added point... to test out the balance of the system I created two lvl 12 fighters, one TWF with kukris, the other with a dire pick (two handed, d10 piercing, x4 crit), and calculated average damage per round. Giving them both in the area of 27k gold, the kukri guy got a +1 icy burst kukri, a +1 flaming kukri and a mithral shirt. The picker got a +3 breastplate and a +1 shocking burst dire pick. Kukris got base 17 Dex and 14 Str, Picker got 17 Str and 14 Dex. Both used their +3 from levels on their higher stat. Result of this is both having AC 21, same hitpoints (didn't calculate), same other stats. Feat selection was fairly obvious (core feats only -- only reason I used a dire pick was for balance issues, as I needed a two handed x4 weapon with no special abilities like trip, which is balanced at d10 damage). Since the Picker has a +5 Str modifier and a two handed weapon, I ignored the ambiguity in the rules over 1.5xstr mod to damage by applying 7.5 to damage, rather than making a decision. For the kukri user, therefore, average damage on a normal hit is 13, or 25.25 on a critical hit. For the Picker, average damage on a normal hit is 21.25, or a whooping 92 on a critical hit. This huge difference is, of course, balanced by the fact that, thanks to TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF, the Kukri user has twice as many attacks per round. Some number crunching later, this what I came up with: For dual kukris, average damage per round versus AC 21 is 60.03 For a dire pick, average damage per round versus AC 21 is 62.82 Conclusion: Large multipliers are very much balanced with large threat range as is. Damage dealt by two kukris is very, very close to the damage dealt by a dire pick. Therefore, doing anything to upset this balance by throwing a stackable Keen into the mix would be unwise, as it would make the insanely powerful 92 damage critical hit significantly more common.