Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PsychicKid 09-14-06, 06:52 PM	Recently in our D&D game, we were exploring a dungeon and came across three paths. Two of them led to locked doors. They weren't magical locks or anything, just really well-built, locked, stone doors. After trying the second locked door, I remarked in character "Well, let's try the third path and see if we can find the keys to this door." The DM calls me on metagaming, comparing it to the classic metagaming example of "The DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it.", when most of the players disagree, citing it to be common sense that most locked doors have some sort of key or other way to unlock it. What do you think? Meta-gaming or common sense?
Rhomphaia 09-14-06, 07:03 PM	I would have to say your DM is being a jackass here. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that there are keys of some sort around. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that those keys are somewhere in the dungeon you are currently exploring. Why wouldn't a PC start searching their surroundings and environment for such? I don't think this is metagaming at all. It sounds like your DM realized he lost a little bit of control over you and is trying to snap it back. If you suspect that he is trying to 'punish' you in game for this bit of so called metagaming, call him out on it. Even if this was metagaming, it is minor at best and should just warrant a reminder, if any sort of action at all. Like I said though, your DM sounds like he is being a jackass.
Always-Late 09-14-06, 07:04 PM	Doors have keys. It's not "the DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it," it's "no sane architect would build a door without a way to open it." It defeats the point of having a door instead of a wall.
claypigeons 09-14-06, 07:06 PM	What do you think? Meta-gaming or common sense? It's common sense to assume there is a key that would open a locked door. Whether or not you can actually find said key is another matter. I agree with Rhomphaia. I also think your DM was just being a jackass.
ArcTan 09-14-06, 07:06 PM	Recently in our D&D game, we were exploring a dungeon and came across three paths. Two of them led to locked doors. They weren't magical locks or anything, just really well-built, locked, stone doors. After trying the second locked door, I remarked in character "Well, let's try the third path and see if we can find the keys to this door." The DM calls me on metagaming, comparing it to the classic metagaming example of "The DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it.", when most of the players disagree, citing it to be common sense that most locked doors have some sort of key or other way to unlock it. What do you think? Meta-gaming or common sense? A dungeon is already a pretty unrealistic, gamelike construct, so you have to clarify on exactly what this structure is and what it's for before I can say how realistic "Let's find the key!" is. But really, in almost any building that's not something explicitly designed to keep things sealed away forever, locked doors are meant to be unlocked on a regular basis and someone has to *have* the key. If I were in a building full of locked doors in real life, I wouldn't expect to see the key I was looking for lying conveniently in one of the unlocked rooms, but I *would* expect that, if anyone was home, I could find someone somewhere who had the key to most of the locked areas. (If I had hostile intent I might plan to kill or disable these people and take the key by force rather than ask for it like I would in real life, but the principle's the same.)
UndeadMouse 09-14-06, 07:07 PM	I would have to say your DM is being a jackass here. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that there are keys of some sort around. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that those keys are somewhere in the dungeon you are currently exploring. Why wouldn't a PC start searching their surroundings and environment for such? I don't think this is metagaming at all. It sounds like your DM realized he lost a little bit of control over you and is trying to snap it back. If you suspect that he is trying to 'punish' you in game for this bit of so called metagaming, call him out on it. Even if this was metagaming, it is minor at best and should just warrant a reminder, if any sort of action at all. Like I said though, your DM sounds like he is being a jackass. as he said. i don't consider it metagaming either. it's just common sense. Doors have keys. It's not "the DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it," it's "no sane architect would build a door without a way to open it." It defeats the point of having a door instead of a wall. same thing.
braindead345 09-14-06, 07:26 PM	It is common sense to find the keys. Then again, who the hell uses stone doors? Answer VERY strong monsters. There could be a complex device to open the doors for weaker creatures, but how to spot it? I think the DM wanted you to try picking the lock or breaking the door down. Simple tricks to opening doors-this might be meta-gaming, but anyone with experience with doors and INT of 10 should be able to figure these out: 1. If the door is locked and there is no key available, try to pick the lock. 2. Examine the door and frame-which side are the hinges on (your side or the far side)? Look for levers, buttons etc. 3. Remove the hinges if possible (you have a 50-50 chance here) the door will fall if pushed/pulled. Decide which way you want the door to fall. Do not stand in the fall zone. 4. Try not to damage doors. The can be trapped, but more importantly, you might need to block the hallway again. Damaged doors are always noticed by alert enemy guards. 5. A crowbar or hand axe are useful tools in opening stubborn doors; but remember tip #4.
Always-Late 09-14-06, 07:53 PM	"Lets find the keys." "Dude, why would there be a key? That's metagaming." "Doors have keys. Everybody knows that." "You're not allowed to use out-of-game knowledge." I've got an idea. Pretend that your characters have no experience with stone doors, and try to burn them down. "Stone doesn't burn." "Yeah, I didn't put any ranks into Knowledge: General." "Well, yeah, but everybody knows that." "I didn't mention stone doors in my backstory. My characters has never seen a stone door, and as I've told you, he doesn't have ranks in Knowledge: General" "Fine. Roll against DC 5." "Okay, a 7. In-character time: 'Hey, guys! I just realized that stone doesn't burn! We should find another way to get around the door.' " "But I just cut two hundred pounds of firewood! You mean we did that for nothing?"
Daosus 09-14-06, 08:12 PM	...stuff... LOL :D But really, doors are meant to have keys. One problem your DM might have had is that he didn't plan on you looking for a key. If you went looking for one but didn't find one, he suddenly looks like he's jerking your chain. Just let him know that you don't EXPECT keys out in the open, but it makes sense to look for them on the rare occasion that they're somewhere outside the locked area.
tuffn00gies 09-14-06, 08:17 PM	Recently in our D&D game, we were exploring a dungeon and came across three paths. Two of them led to locked doors. They weren't magical locks or anything, just really well-built, locked, stone doors. After trying the second locked door, I remarked in character "Well, let's try the third path and see if we can find the keys to this door." The DM calls me on metagaming, comparing it to the classic metagaming example of "The DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it.", when most of the players disagree, citing it to be common sense that most locked doors have some sort of key or other way to unlock it. What do you think? Meta-gaming or common sense? I agree with the other players. Of course, common sense also dictates that most traps would have a way of being disabled.
was_fired 09-14-06, 09:49 PM	Actually I'm going to side with your DM on this. Assuming that the key to a locked section of a dungeon is in an unlocked part is metagaming. That said the way you said it wasn't metagaming. If you said, "Lets head to the unlocked section so we can find the keys to the locked parts." Then you would be metagaming beyond any shadow of a doubt. Specifically because nothing EXCEPT your knowledge that this is a game would cause your character to believe the key to be in an unlocked section. The way you phrased it was bording on metagaming, but not clearly metagaming. That said odds are your DM's adventures actually require it and he is just bitter that you have come to realise this. :)
Throg 09-14-06, 10:38 PM	Hmm, what about this angle on the 'not metagaming' part. Two doors, both locked. They've been in every area so far, with no one finding keys in any area. No one able to unlock it, there's a chance that there could be someone with keys down the only other path. And it could easily have been meta-gaming if a few words were changed/added. But it was still reasonable to believe that they might find a key down the only path they could go. What other action could they take? Really, it's between finding someone with a key... dig up the walls to maybe find a switch... or go back to town and beat up everyone till you find a key.
Rhomphaia 09-14-06, 11:05 PM	Assuming that the key to a locked section of a dungeon is in an unlocked part is metagaming. And pray tell exactly where else are the PCs are supposed to look for a key? If they got into the locked sections without a key, then that has a way of making searching for a key to those doors somewhat redundant. Sorry, DM is still a jackass here.
Kusari_Gamer 09-14-06, 11:19 PM	And pray tell exactly where else are the PCs are supposed to look for a key? If they got into the locked sections without a key, then that has a way of making searching for a key to those doors somewhat redundant. Sorry, DM is still a jackass here. Ranger - "The door is locked. It looks like we'll need a key." Fighter - "Alright, guys, I'll break it down so we can look for the key." Ranger - "Good idea. It has to be here somewhere." Wizard - "What? But.....<sigh>...God, I hate you guys..."
ArcTan 09-14-06, 11:21 PM	Actually I'm going to side with your DM on this. Assuming that the key to a locked section of a dungeon is in an unlocked part is metagaming. That said the way you said it wasn't metagaming. If you said, "Lets head to the unlocked section so we can find the keys to the locked parts." Then you would be metagaming beyond any shadow of a doubt. Specifically because nothing EXCEPT your knowledge that this is a game would cause your character to believe the key to be in an unlocked section. The way you phrased it was bording on metagaming, but not clearly metagaming. That said odds are your DM's adventures actually require it and he is just bitter that you have come to realise this. :) *shrug* "Oh well, it's locked, let's see what's in the other part of the building." Is that still metagaming? It's essentially the same thing. It's not like they wouldn't've tried exploring the unlocked section if they knew for a fact the key *wasn't* there.
was_fired 09-15-06, 12:34 AM	I'm not saying that their actions are based on metagaming. Just the logic that the key must be in the only unlocked section of the dungeon. As a DM I wouldn't complain if one of my players said something like this because that isn't how I make my dungeons, and if I did make a dungeon like that odds are I would just let it go as it was a relatively innocent statement. All of this being said I have previously voiced my annoyance at the Red Key, Blue Key, Green Key style which some games base themselves upon. So it is true that I have a bias against this DM should their metagaming be valid.
fatal error 09-15-06, 01:43 AM	It all depends on how this statement is said, in my opinion. If it sounded like my players were thinking, "Well, these doors must have keys, and those keys must be down the other hallway or how else would we get through?" then I'd be irritated at their metagaming. If they sounded like they were thinking, "Well, these doors are locked, so the only way left to go is the third one, and maybe the keys to these doors are down there as well." then I'd be fine with it. And why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that sometimes things are locked from the inside? The majority of people lock their houses at night, and many of them probably don't leave keys laying in their back yard for burglars to search for. Sure, some do leave keys under their doormat etc. but not all. If I made a dungeon and was inside it, keeping secure, I'd want my only key to be on me. If a sentry wants to get back in, well, he can talk to the doorman.
draco1119 09-15-06, 02:47 AM	I'm not saying that their actions are based on metagaming. Just the logic that the key must be in the only unlocked section of the dungeon. As a DM I wouldn't complain if one of my players said something like this because that isn't how I make my dungeons, and if I did make a dungeon like that odds are I would just let it go as it was a relatively innocent statement. The point is, the OP should be allowed to look in the unlocked section for the keys. Who's to say he'll actually find them? :shrug:
Sulaco 09-15-06, 12:01 PM	What do you think? Meta-gaming or common sense? A bit of both. It is metagaming in the sense that, if you truly apply common sense, most people lock doors from the inside or lock them form the outside when they go somewhere else. In D&D, however, this bit of realism is ignored in favour of the "keys have locks" approach. Thus it is metagaming to a certain degree but only a degree that is essentially endemic to the nature and playability of the game. A DMing calling you on metagaming for assuming that the keys to pair of locked doors might be found through a third unlocked one is rubbish. That is no metagaming, that is common sense D&D style. ;)
Sinaz 09-15-06, 12:37 PM	DM: You enter the seedy tavern and take a moment to digest the colorful crowd of scoundrels and miscreants... what do you do? PC1: I go to the bar and ask for an ale. DM: HEY! You have no reason to assume this bar has ale! You're a lousy METAGAMER! PC1: Gawd... ok, I read the menu first. DM: MENU?!? Are you reading my notes when I go to the bathroom! How else would you know I included a menu with this tavern, METAGAMER!!!!! Seriously... the idea to investigate an unlocked door is not metagaming. The idea that one might find keys for the other doors is pure speculation. Everyone speculates... and you don't need ranks in anything to do it.
zlatko 09-15-06, 12:50 PM	I think you were totally metagaming. I can sense you only went down the two corridors with locked doors so you could go after the key! It's the keys you're after! And after you find the keys you're just gonna leave! And leave my monsters trapped in the dungeon, you dirty rascal! I also penalize my players for using non-proficient weapons by having them hit themselves every time they hit anything because they're holding the sword by the wrong end! How would you know that you're supposed to hold it by the hilt?! How do you know greatswords even have hilts?! That's metagaming!
Derren S. 09-15-06, 12:53 PM	1. Doors usually have keys. 2. When you already explored 2 of 3 possible corridor, the chance to find the keys. if they can be found at all, in the thrid corridor is much higher then to find them in teh other two.
Bruunwald 09-15-06, 01:21 PM	I don't think that was metagaming. It just sounded like a hopeful comment. I think in real life, plenty of us might, say, go to the kitchen and look through the drawers for a key if we found the bathroom locked and couldn't tell if there was someone in it. Perfectly natural. More so when you consider that your alternative might be to have to try to force a stone door. I might hope for an easier solution myself. I think your DM was just looking for an occasion to pounce. Next time he accuses you of metagaming over something like this, remind him of what I have to put up with every session: "But I can just teleport around this if we can't figure out the answer, right? Will that work? Because I don't want to waste the spell, but I don't think we're good at solving riddles, so maybe I should just do it now. But I want to know if it will work first." Ahhh... the joys of lousy players who have to be in the group because they're somebody's live-in boyfriend.
slacks 09-15-06, 04:30 PM	So I was staying with my stepsister this summer. One day I got home and the door was locked. I didn't have a key. Instead of picking the lock, or forcing the door I checked under the mat. No key. However, using my uber metaknowledge I checked under some potted plants and found a key. Obviously I had some extra-dimensional knowledge to guide me and will be writing a book about it in the Fall so that my gifts can be put to use guiding others. I think it will be called "Metareality, Using Common Sense to Your Advantage."
Feriin 09-15-06, 07:07 PM	Your DM is a dumbass. Tell him this, then leave.
Bruunwald 09-15-06, 07:27 PM	So I was staying with my stepsister this summer. One day I got home and the door was locked. I didn't have a key. Instead of picking the lock, or forcing the door I checked under the mat. No key. However, using my uber metaknowledge I checked under some potted plants and found a key. Obviously I had some extra-dimensional knowledge to guide me and will be writing a book about it in the Fall so that my gifts can be put to use guiding others. I think it will be called "Metareality, Using Common Sense to Your Advantage." EXACTLY. Exactly, exactly, ex-freakin'-zactomundo. This is exactly what I was saying about looking for the key to the bathroom in the kitchen drawer. Another real example: I remember staying in a girlfriend's house while she and her mom were away. I was charged with looking after the aging dog. I noticed the side door to the garage had a different lock. Was I receiving unfair metagaming knowledge from my unseen cosmic player when it occurred to me to look for it somewhere in the kitchen? I guess I could have assumed that her mom had the only copy of the key with her, but instead, I checked the junk drawer. Guess what? For the next three days I was able to let the dog in and out that way and not worry about locking myself out of the house. How the stated hope that a key to a locked door might be in the next room is not metagaming in real life, but is metagaming in the game, is beyond me. But Slacks gets the cookie. The DM gets the kick in the pants.
Molitor 09-15-06, 08:24 PM	DM: You enter the seedy tavern and take a moment to digest the colorful crowd of scoundrels and miscreants... what do you do? PC1: I go to the bar and ask for an ale. DM: HEY! You have no reason to assume this bar has ale! You're a lousy METAGAMER! PC1: Gawd... ok, I read the menu first. DM: MENU?!? Are you reading my notes when I go to the bathroom! How else would you know I included a menu with this tavern, METAGAMER!!!!! Seriously... the idea to investigate an unlocked door is not metagaming. The idea that one might find keys for the other doors is pure speculation. Everyone speculates... and you don't need ranks in anything to do it. hahhahahha totally the way I was thinking.
Always-Late 09-15-06, 08:58 PM	Actually I'm going to side with your DM on this. Assuming that the key to a locked section of a dungeon is in an unlocked part is metagaming. That said the way you said it wasn't metagaming. If you said, "Lets head to the unlocked section so we can find the keys to the locked parts." Then you would be metagaming beyond any shadow of a doubt. Specifically because nothing EXCEPT your knowledge that this is a game would cause your character to believe the key to be in an unlocked section. The way you phrased it was bording on metagaming, but not clearly metagaming. That said odds are your DM's adventures actually require it and he is just bitter that you have come to realise this. :)"Man, we can't find the key to this door." "The key must be somewhere! Lets go look for the person who has the key." "It could be behind the door, then we're screwed. Lets think of something else." "But it could be not behind the door, and then we could open it. Where's the harm in -" "Metagaming again? This is the third time I caught you. You thought you'd forgotten when you tried to bypass that trap last week, hmm? Even yesterday, you tried to use a freaking MACE on SKELETONS! What's wrong with you?"
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-16-06, 03:17 AM	Meta gaming. Doors have keys, true, but they are usually not just left lying around for random strangers to find. But I blame the DM for running such an unrealistic dungeon.
Trevan0 09-16-06, 03:32 AM	This thread has inspired me. My players will now find a dungeon, with two paths. One leads to a lock door, another leads to an empty room. Little do they know, the owner accidently left his key in the room with the locked door, locking himself out...forever. Unable to call AAA to slimjim the door for him, he eventually moved some place else. Genius.
Orpheo 09-16-06, 05:47 AM	Recently I DMed a game for my 8 year old daughter, who had never played before but was intrigued by daddy's and mummy's hobby. I ran a simple goblins' lair clear-out. Her character found a locked chest. Her immediate response to this was, "These goblins must have the key hidden around here somewhere." Common sense.
Throg 09-16-06, 06:04 AM	Saying "Let's check down this other path for a key" does not imply that he believes it to just be laying on the floor. An adventurer might very well expect perhaps there is a guard down that third hallway that could have a key. That phrase doesn't inherently mean that he expects whole-heartedly to find a key. Though it depends pretty much on his tone of voice when the phrase was uttered, which we can't very well tell off hand.
Balseraph 09-16-06, 07:23 AM	I agree with what seems to be the common theme of the thread. It's not metagaming to speculate or hope that a key might be around somewhere, nor even to go looking for one. As has been said several times; who is to say that a key is found? It is logical to assume that the key is in the possession of someone on the other side of the locked door, but it's not metagaming to look for a key anyway. We do this in games all the time. DM: The door is locked. Me (musing aloud): Well, I doubt that there's a key on this side of the door, but what the heck, I've got time, I'll give it a quick search. ...a quick search later... DM: Nope, no key to be found. Me (shrugging and looking at the door as a spy would look at his arch-nemesis): Didn't think so. Now, door... It's just you and me. Do you feel lucky? ...several futile attempts at door-opening later... Me: Ah, to heck with it. I guess I'll come back when the shop is open! :P
Always-Late 09-16-06, 05:49 PM	Meta gaming. Doors have keys, true, but they are usually not just left lying around for random strangers to find.Yep. They're left lying in the posessions of underpaid and overworked kobold War3 guards for random strangers to kill, loot, and find.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-16-06, 06:07 PM	Well, I'd say it is metagaming to some degree, though not to a degree that you really have to yell at players about. There is frankly no reason that the key should be on the unlocked portion. PCs have enough abilities to get through doors without keys that the DM has no reason to ever have them required to find a key. Now, if it's a special indestructible adamantine door that is magically enchanted to resist knock and can't be picked, then that's different. But then the character's may simply search the unlocked area out of desperation and hope they can find a key.
Always-Late 09-16-06, 06:36 PM	There is frankly no reason that the key should be on the unlocked portion.Maybe the person with the key went outside.
draco1119 09-17-06, 02:45 AM	Even yesterday, you tried to use a freaking MACE on SKELETONS! What's wrong with you?" And that, my friend, is why I chose Undead as my Ranger's favored enemy... :P
MSW 09-28-06, 04:13 PM	Recently in our D&D game, we were exploring a dungeon and came across three paths. Two of them led to locked doors. They weren't magical locks or anything, just really well-built, locked, stone doors. After trying the second locked door, I remarked in character "Well, let's try the third path and see if we can find the keys to this door." The DM calls me on metagaming, comparing it to the classic metagaming example of "The DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it.", when most of the players disagree, citing it to be common sense that most locked doors have some sort of key or other way to unlock it. What do you think? Meta-gaming or common sense? No way is that metagaming. You and your party tried to go down and get through the first two paths, and couldn't open the doors. The ONLY logical course of action is to try the third path. Maybe there are keys there or a way of bypassing / opening the first two doors, maybe not. But it's the only course of action available to you other then "oh well, this is too difficult. Let's return to town and get some ale!" BTW, this last tactic is a valid one if your DM continues to be an ass. If fact, you and the players can really leave and really go out if things get that bad.
PhaedrusXY 09-28-06, 05:23 PM	If the key IS actually in the unlocked portion, it is the DM who is metagaming, if anyone is. As far as the PCs know, there is nothing saying that the key is even there. The player character is just saying they should look in the only place available to them for such a key. For all they know, that key might not even exist. Maybe they are being silly for expecting it to be, but being silly is not the same thing as metagaming. However, the DM DOES know, and HE is the one that is "metagaming" if anyone is. (How do they know where to look for my precious keys? :eek: Oh my!) The PCs are just looking around. The whole thing sounds incredibly stupid to me, and the DM sounds like a jackass or a moron (or both).
trapspringer 09-28-06, 06:19 PM	Doors have keys. It's not "the DM would never put a trap there without a way to disable it," it's "no sane architect would build a door without a way to open it." It defeats the point of having a door instead of a wall. Ever been to a public high school? But yea, not metagaming.