Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WilliamPall 04-11-04, 11:13 AM	I wanted to get some opionions on something that happened to me in a DnD game. I got a call from a guy who was starting a DnD game and wanted a fourth player. I'd been in groups with him, in games that he's run before, but not for at least a year. So, before the actual game night the two of us meet up to make my character. After a few hours we end up with a CN Barbarian 3 Golmoid (Dragon 317) with a Charisa score of 6. (All stats rolled naturally). The DM also had some charts to roll up a random background, one of the results was a "proud" personality. Now, during the session . . knowing my character had a very low charisma score and the fact that I know charisma is not solely appearance, I played my character as rude. Loud, abrasive, interputing people if he needed to get something done. I saw this as simply playing my character. I didn't go overboard with it, but I tried to match the charisma score best I could. Furthermore, the group cleric made a point of asking people if they needed healing, and not healing them if they answered no. After the battle, my character was at about 1/4 to 1/3 total hit points. Now, out of character I would say yes . . please heal me. If I were a different alignment/not "proud" I would've said yes. So . . . the night ends and then the night before the next session I get an e-mail from the DM stating that he's sorry for wasting my time, that he doesn't care for the way I roleplay. He stated that while I mayt hink I was only playing my character, a person just doesn't do what I did in a party-oriented game. He said that I made it not fun for others. Now, I want to get some opinions on the above situation. I realize that only hearing one side of the situation makes offering an opinion hard, but . . . I'm curious if anyone feels that this guy was justified.
FriendoftheDork 04-11-04, 11:19 AM	hmm, what can I say. I'd have to actually roleplay with you. Now, you tell me that you played a rude guy that It's hard to like. Ask yourself, was there any reason why the party should have liked your character? I would speak with the DM again, telling what you've told us. And assure him that you don't have to play your characters that way. Make a new character (someone more likeable) and try again. Since you've played with the DM before he should know if you can play the game the way he wants.
Salla 04-11-04, 11:20 AM	If you use random personality/background charts, you're not going to get a compatible party, which means you're not going to get a party-oriented game. I suggest you write the DM back, and tell him you weren't playing YOUR character, you were playing a randomly generated character. Ask him to let you create a character of your design, not his charts, and give you another chance. If he says no, then inform him that Salla, who has been RPG'ing for 20 years, is of the opinion that he is a no-talent hack who has no right to call himself a Dungeon Master, and his game is the recreational equivalent of a ten care pile-up.
Wolfhart 04-11-04, 11:23 AM	I would have proally done the same thing. I dont know I always have CHR high enough to be a Paladin.. even if I have ta gimp my other/prime stats. It does however seem a little overboard to drop you an email that he dont like your style. Specially consideirng that you have gamed with him before, and the fact that he let you into this set of adventures. Heck the fact that he made you roll a random die for character personality type. Proud=arrigant in my book. Id say the DM is wrong.. but thats against rule 0. Why dont you show up to the next gaming sessions and explane to the group/dm why you did what you did. Most people are understanding and if the party accecpts you back into it, then either the dm will also or the party will start to dislike that dm. which from the sounds of things could be a very good thing. Now not knowing the other side of things.. I would advise you to send an email to the DM and request to address the party and explane yourself to them. Or request that you can roll a character that doesnt have such a low charisma.
CuCulain42 04-11-04, 11:41 AM	I'm not sure that the group is taking things in game just a wee bit too serious. The group I'm in, trusting that your desciption is fairly accurate of how you played, would have really enjoyed a character like that. Party oriented or not, we have a couple in our current party that aren't but we make do. Just my 2cp. :)
bahamut_0 04-11-04, 11:55 AM	Well, I have to say I wouldn't have been too impressed if I was in that party either. But that's not your fault at all, random backgrounds suck bad. Talk to the DM if you're still interested in playing, but I wouldn't advise pushing for using the same character.
Remnant 04-11-04, 12:10 PM	Your DM was there when you "designed" the character. I wonder if he told the other players about his role in making the rude, proud guy. Anyway, I would be a little bit miffed if for no other reason than that. Tell your DM to read this thread. He doesn't even need to register to do it. In fact, E-mail him a link to this thread, and if you have the other players' E-mail, send it to them as well.
Crossover-Chronicler 04-11-04, 12:37 PM	Believe it or not, "roleplaying my character" isn't everything in a game, escpecially if you made the choice to have the character be loud, abrasive and rude. If you annoy the rest of the group enough, they're justified in wanting to be rid of you. However, your DM is at fault as well. Requiring that you be "proud," but penalizing you for playing it, is a sign of poor planning and poor understanding of what he's doing. Kicking you after a single session with no option to improve your behavior indicates that he's not a very tolerant or patient DM (or that you were just that annoying.) If you really feel like responding, just tell him that if he wants a character with a nicer personality, to let you pick your own next time. Then be glad you're no longer in that game ;)
WilliamPall 04-11-04, 01:37 PM	Thanks everyone for you input. There really is no chance of me bringing up the idea of me re-joining the group with a different character, because he's told me that he doesn't like my gaming style and he sees no further reason to talk about it. Apparently the reason I was non-invited to be apart of gaming groups for the year/year and a half is because he didn't like the way I gamed. Now, the prior characters were in no way loud or rude or obnoxious . . . But, I decided that there is no need for his game/group. If I've got some fault to my gaming style and they refuse to even inform me as to what the fault is so I can work on correcting it before they just out right kick me out . . . .
Brillock of Ithicus 04-11-04, 03:50 PM	burn his books! tell him your playing in character ! haha. no seriously though, where the other actually roleplaying. It sounds like if everyone was at level 4 or whatever from the looks of it, you where the damage dealer, or the brute.. which may you. If i got into a fight, say my human archer, and your barbarian and you sucked up 2/3rd of damage, presented yourself as another target and helped me out in combat, id be alot more greatful for your help. I mean, sure you may be proud but proud people learn to give respect, and gain some in return did the cleric ever thank you once for takin those hits. Or does that cleric have some hair of her butt that oh well take the damage and once its over ill thank them by healing them. Sometimes the best things in life are just two words, Thank - you. Sounds like the party has no flavor, you presented them an opertunity to jump along something good. And they denied it. Which leads me to another question. Were you walking into a loaded Gun! Are all the players there friends, and the DM friends and do you think they gabbed it up about perhaps having another player at the table, and you where a last resort. They probably gabbed it up about how cool it would be to have another pc within the mix, then they probabaly said something like, well if it doesn't work out we'll just kick him out. Thats just mean! someone takes there time out to play with someone, and then nukes them. Perhaps this is what you walked into. We have a player right now we are debating on wheather we want him back in the group. We are all friends, we have kinda lost contact with him over the past year, however, we got news he's comin back after school, deal is we've been playin this entire time under the impression that he doesn't know. But he speaks like he's going to run a game this summer and we all want to play. So we will wait till then. As a group though we have rules we made, and if our dm can't abid by them then he's fired, and may not play with us the next game. oh and our rule's are RULE 0 is broken and is no longer a rule. All DM's must be held accountable. our reasoning on that we play more like a good video game style, if they big bad guy dies by accident in the first fight, he does. so maybe theres a bigger bad guy' or perhaps we just got lost in the adventure to relize that it wasn't that big of a fight, and the such. But enough of this im going to go roleplay! - i hope your situation improves. for the record if someone is activially making a problem for my gaming time, meaning the time i spend with people to roleplay and gain fellowship from. I sternly will just refocus there energies whether that be in character or not! thanks guy's-
D+1 04-11-04, 04:09 PM	Two things. First, just because your character might logically be loud, obnoxious, abrasive, etc. doesn't mean that it's a good idea to act that way in game. From the perspective of the other PC's they would not want to tolerate your character - he's damned annoying. From the perspective of the other PLAYERS they ALSO have to put up with your PC - his personality is damned annoying. It doesn't matter if it's in-character or not. VERY little of that kind of thing goes a LONG way. Second, if the DM admits the assumption that you were simply roleplaying he has little justification for dis-inviting you. He does, however, have MORE than ample justification for asking that you drastically alter your characters behaviour, your approach to your character, or come up with a new one altogether so that the experience for everyone at the table isn't as annoying. This doesn't apply only to the sort of traits you're describing it applies to everything about your character. Take alignment for example. The rest of the party plays good character. You choose to play a neutral or even evil character and in attempting to roleplay your character faithfully you argue and fight with the other PC's about not being willing to torture, kill and behave in a mercenary manner. If the DM decides after even only one session that your character and/or you have to go who's in the wrong? Nobody has the right to INFLICT a disruptive or annoying PC upon the other players. Their right to enjoy the game on a fundamental level overrides your desire and obligation to roleplay an annoying character.
Eldren 04-11-04, 04:16 PM	Sometimes people do really odd things in games, when you wouldn't expect them to, and there isn't much you can do about it. Most often I've found it's because there are extenuating circumstances that you aren't aware of that make someone choose a decision like that. It could have been a personality conflict with a player of his who'd been playing with him for quite some time. For instance, I joined a campaign probably about a month and a half ago. It was the first session for me and at least two other guys. Ignoring the fact that the Dungeon Master didn't really know what he was doing, there were two rather incompatible personalities, me and this one other gentleman. We were doing character creation, and I had some questions for the DM during that process; this other guy kept interrupting with his interpretation of the rules, and I would try to gently correct him if I fel the was wrong, but would then turn to the Dungeon Master, in an attempt to avoid arguments, and say, "It's your game, how would you like to rule on this? I'm willing to go either way." I think that the Dungeon Master ought to have final say over how their game is run, and how they interpret the rules. Some games are naturally more heavily house-ruled than others are, and that's fine. After 19 years of playing D&D, I would hope I could at least realize that. But this other guy just wouldn't stop. So the session ended for the night, and we all went home. I was talking with the DM on the phone about a couple of things, and he let me know that he was going to send the one individual an e-mail asking him not to return, that he didn't think it was a good match to the group. Nothing was said regarding me, and he said he'd see me that Friday night. So I gathered with the group that Friday night, and we got to playing. The Dungeon Master, so he could more fully acclimate himself to the 3rd Edition rules, decided that he'd want to do some combat testing for that night's session, to get the rules down straight in his head. This was fine with me; we all made new characters, because he'd decided he wanted to run "City of the Spider Queen", which required us to be about three levels higher than the PCs we'd made the last session. I was polite, I made my character with full deference to the DM's rules, I helped him out if he didn't know what a particular ruling was by pointing out where the rule was in the appropriate rulebook, and letting him read it and determine for himself how he wanted to progress, etc. In short, I was pretty close to being a model player. No conflicts with the other players, nothing of the sort. The session ended that night, and I drove home. I was thinking about probably just calling him or e-mailing him during that week to let him know that I wouldn't be returning, because ultimately I just concluded that I have a lot more fun playing under a Dungeon Master who knows the rules really well, so that I don't have to spend the whole session adjusting to new on-the-spot house rules, or just have to spend the whole session helping him find a rule in the Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide. But even before I had a chance to do that, I received an e-mail asking me not to return for the next session, that the other players didn't feel I was a good fit for the group. This was honestly pretty confusing to me; I hadn't been contentious or disruptive in any way, and had been a pretty conciliatory player, because I want to respect the DM's authority in the game. At any rate, I was forced to conclude that it was primarily because one particular player didn't seem to like me. He was someone who was just really reticent whenever I'd try to talk with him, and seemed particularly offended when the conversation drifted into what we did with our free time, and I mentioned that I attended a church in Seattle, and was pretty active with that. His lifestyle, both sexual and spiritual, didn't jibe with that, and I was fine with that. I'm not interested in getting into religious debates when I play Dungeons & Dragons, I'm interested in getting into my character and taking part in an involving story. He was really good friends with the DM and the DM's girlfriend, at whose house we were playing, so he had a lot more history with them than I did. They were also of a spiritual belief that was directly anathemic to my own, but again, it wasn't an issue, at least with me, because the discussions honestly didn't turn into a comparitive religion study. We were there to game, and that's all I really talked about. I get the impression that, for whatever reason he decided he didn't like me, this one player used his influence to convince the Dungeon Master to ask me not to return. It isn't that much hair off my back, honestly, because I had already been thinking about leaving the group anyway, for entirely unrelated reasons (which I already mentioned; I had no problems at all with any of the people who were in the campaign after the one individual was asked not to return), but it still seemed to come entirely out of left field. So I can sort of see where you're coming from on this. E-mail the Dungeon Master, and be as nice as possible, but ask the DM if he might be willing to tell you in explicit detail why you were asked not to return when the DM seemed to make such a concerted effort to contact you and ask you to join his campaign in the first place. Don't be confrontational about it, but ask so that you can either attempt to better yourself as a person, or simply learn what you should and shouldn't do when joining a new group. Frequently, abrasive character personalities are only tolerated within a group that's already played together for awhile, and they might not have been used to an abrasive personality from someone they didn't really know. I hope you're able to get it worked out!
FriendoftheDork 04-11-04, 04:47 PM	well, as I thought... not all people have a compatible playing style, and no Dm is under an obligation to include all sorts of players in his game. I did not include a player that I have played with before because he like to play min-maxed superheroes and I'm more into in depth roleplay (besides his cell phone was N/A). Still, he's a nice guy so it's a shame really. Finding a new gaming group seems to be the best way to go. Better yet: start your own... include people of the last group if they don't also dislike your playing style. Then have some fun!
Zendu 04-11-04, 05:49 PM	He should have called a break and talked to you during the game if he thought you were coming on a bit strong, espesially if hes played with you before, and knows your not rude. If you had fun, tell him so, and talk to the other players. If they all like you, he kinda has to let you in, after all, im sure hes still looking for a fourth.
NinjaHedge 04-11-04, 07:33 PM	I think in the end it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. He doesn't like the way you play, you don't like the way he plays. So don't play with him. Weather his concerns are ligitimate or not the conclusion is the same, find a different game.
Burner 04-11-04, 08:38 PM	First off, I haven't read all of the previous posts so I dunno if I'm repeating or anything but... If you weren't going overboard with the rudeness, then you did a good job. You should see the types of characters my group has--your kind of character definitely would've fit in with us. It's just BS that they kicked you out like that--what more can I say?
Nom 04-11-04, 08:50 PM	Originally posted by D+1 Nobody has the right to INFLICT a disruptive or annoying PC upon the other players. Their right to enjoy the game on a fundamental level overrides your desire and obligation to roleplay an annoying character.Don't forget that this applies to the DM as well. Take a character with a strong personality trait (eg Proud) and notably low charisma (eg 6) and you're not going to get an overly genial character, though you may well get a memorable one. The DM is in charge of how the rules are administered. As such, the DM is ultimately responsible for everything that happens within the rules of the game. I don't mean to say that if a character dies by roll of the dice that the DM 'killed' it. However, the framework of rules the DM appoves contains the opportunity for character death, and the DM choses to place the characters in a situation where those rules could come into play. This situation is similar. The DM approved of a "proud" character with low CHA. He didn't seek to alter the character, and (as far as we have been told) didn't attempt to shape how the player would RP the character. The player is not doing anything already agreed as illegal or unacceptable. Therefore, unless and until the DM requests that the player change his representation of the character, the DM is giving tacit approval. However, the key advice is this: if you're having these sort of issues after one session, is this really the sort of gaming group you want to be part of? Is it a minor misunderstanding to work around, or a game-breaker?
flyingmoose 04-12-04, 01:17 AM	Idunno... The only guy I know that plays abbrasive characters happens to be an [donkey]hole in real life. But anyway, what you're describing sounds less like a proud guy with a Cha of 6 and more like an obnoxious guy with a Cha of 15. Tone it down a bit. Explain things like "Look, he's too proud to ask for healing, but he's at 3 hit points. Can you help me out? Force it on him?"
danielinthewolvesden 04-12-04, 02:10 AM	Why-oh-why would you want to play an obnoxious PC in your fisrt meeting with a new group? That's just plain foolishness. You don't know them, they don't know you, you don't know their playing style- and they don't know yours. Yes, the DM did allow you to run him. So? Before you run someone "off the charts" in any direction, that party should know you REAL well and know that it is "just the character" and not the player. Otherwise, how would they know? PC's tend to mirror their Player, you know. Besides- there might have been other factors also. I'd like to hear their side. Ya screwed up. Apologize, explain, and hope they give you another try.
canamrock 04-12-04, 02:21 AM	Consider the DM having done you and himself a favor. Why? It's simple. He, after randomly assigning you a personality type that would not mesh well in most groups, seeing what your character was, told you that your style was not appreciated, is a confirmed retardo. Not retard, BTW, this is the name for the condition (according to Space Ghost). The alternative would be that you continued to play in that game, suffering when you were not enjoying it yourself and he not enjoying your presence. While I would recommend to you remembering to ask the GM beforehand the style of gaming he runs, this is really more bad DM'ing then bay playing. You did what you felt was right to roleplay your character properly. If the DM cannot understand that, then I would have serious worries about his skill. Again, I must emphasize this lesson for you in future games: Always, always, talk to your DM before the game to figure out how he does things, and bounce ideas off of him to make sure your character will work in the game. If he refuses to give you some basic sort of information, that is a bad sign. I hope this helps.
danielinthewolvesden 04-12-04, 02:40 AM	All the DM "assigned" was "proud". The OP picked "CN", "rude" "barbarian" "loud" & "abrasive". Those were all his choices. He could have picked an ugly, quiet, extremely polite, NG Bbn who was proud of his tribe and background. He made his bed, not the DM.
tiggrhoo 04-12-04, 02:58 AM	I skimmed all the posts, so please excuse me if someone else already said this. Next time, a good way to be rude & obnoxious in character might be to act that way with all NPCs, but never with the other PCs. You could vaguely explain it that they're close associates who have learned to tolerate your ways, and then simulate that by in fact *not* acting like a jerk toward them. Not that I would have thought of this beforehand necessarily. As far as this game goes, though, I'd say it's over. Best of luck!
mazaudi 04-12-04, 03:17 AM	When I dm'ed I think I have only ever kicked 2 people out and I have been playing for a long long time. But they were more than just annoying they would actually slap the youngest player in the head when he did something stupid. I put a stop to it really quickly. As far as what your DM did I think he was being a [Masked vulgarity deleted -- WizO the Hutt]. Since you said he never asked you back for a year and a half because he didn't like the way you roleplay the first time around. He should have let you know a head of time how he felt about your roleplaying. It isn't fair to you and not to mention a waste of your time. It is really hard to find players and a DM that are compatable with each other. Recently I put away my DM guide and decided to play for awhile. It was a really enlightning experience. I had forgot how it feels to be a player and what it was like not to be in control. Sorry got a bit off topic... I guess what I want to say is I know it is hard when something like this happens. And it is cold comfort to say "be happy you arn't playing with those guys anymore " there are lots of questions you have that you may never find the answers too. All you can do is send an e-mail with your questions and suggestions and leave it at that. Someone suggested showing up at thier next game session and I think that is the wrong thing to do... Chances are you won't change their minds and even if you do you won't be able to relax in knowing that they arn't going to send you another e-mail later on down the line. That is my 2 c.p.
Dragonspirit 04-12-04, 04:38 AM	After having previous experience with an unhappy group v a character, I instituted a new house rule. If, at the end of any session, at least half the players are unhappy with another character in the group and want him to leave he is forced to retire and the player makes a new guy for the next session (I, of course, reserve 'rule 0' in case *I* don't like said character and want him gone). This ensures the most important thing of D&D - that we're all having fun! If the other players are not enjoying a character's company (and usually it is a character and not the player themselves) then that character should not be inflicted upon them. In your case, I think they were within their rights to kick out your character if they were unhappy with him but it would have been right of them to let you make a new guy (not kick YOU out!).
Sir Todd 04-12-04, 03:20 PM	This is both of your faults. I would apologize to him then ask for his apology. You shouldn't have played your low Cha as rude. Its as simple as that. Almost no group enjoys a character who does not play well with others. Whether your new or not, its best to make a character who works well in the group. Because in the end, real life group dynamics are far more important then how you played your role. As for assigning a bad personality trait to you thats horrible. Its like he is paying lip service to roleplaying while expecting you to not roleplay. Its purely insane. Never should anyone mix 'Role' with 'Roll' and charts for rolling a personality are patently stupid. If he wants roleplaying he should give you the list of traits and let you pick one you think would work best or let you make up your own traits. Not everyone is capable of playing every role. Its best to let the player decide how he plays the role and reward him when its done well. Another thing. Don't let it get to you. I used to think roleplaying was the greatest goal. But when joining a new group I was asked to leave after two sessions. When I analyzed my own playing, I realized my elitist attitude ,while it may have been perfectly appropriate for the character, was anoying to the others at the table. Learn from your mistakes and move on. If you wish send an e-mail to the GM explaining what you learned and then tell him your still friends and that you hope whoever he does find to fill that seat better 'fits' the group. Then that would be good. Old grudges are sad and best avoided. Ironically that group I was asked to leave asked me back after I had a talk with the GM. I learned to tone down my character personalities and everyone seemed happy.
danielinthewolvesden 04-12-04, 05:28 PM	Originally posted by Sir Todd As for assigning a bad personality trait to you thats horrible. Its like he is paying lip service to roleplaying while expecting you to not roleplay. For the third time- the only "personality trait" the DM assigned to our OP was "proud"- hardly a "bad" trait. :banghead:
Kronk LaSworda 04-12-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by FriendoftheDork well, as I thought... not all people have a compatible playing style, and no Dm is under an obligation to include all sorts of players in his game. At the end of the day, this is the key point. Some people just have different play styles. Our group has kicked out people before for play-style conflicts. What is good for some people just doesn't jive with others. It isn't anything personal, it's just a fact of life. People are there to have fun, and if the majority is not liking another person's style, he's got to go. I only have a limited amount of time for gaming, as do the rest of my group. Most of us are married with careers. We aren't going to waiste time on someone that doesn't fit our group. Sorry. Better luck with your next group.
Jkol the Butcher 04-13-04, 12:23 AM	I am of the opinion that the DM is at fault here. Perhaps playing a 6 charisma, Proud CN Barbarian was not the best choice but the DM was present for the creation of the character and didn't put a stop to it before the session. I think it is reasonable to assume that anyone who knows the games rules well enough to DM should have a pretty good idea as to how a chaotic neutral, proud barbarian of charisma 6 is going to be roleplayed. Given that the DM in this situation clearly has way more experience with the group and their roleplaying style, he had a responsibilty to advise the player of any incompatabilty beforehand and veto the character.
Stafir Ortnev 04-13-04, 03:10 AM	May I point out that no matter how good of a person you are OOCly, no matter how nice, polite, or whatever. If a groups first experience with you is with a character who is an annoying prat. Who they all hate..and you talk little to none oocly. Then hey..they WILL hate.not only your char..but you. Why? Because all they saw of you is an annoying character. All you were given was Proud. That was it..you were proud. Everything else about that char was up to you. Personally if I was in the game, I'd want you kicked out as well. I recently left a game, where one guy..who I never met. Who rarely talked oocly..and when he did.....he still acted like the char..and took insults to his char oocly..and our ooc feelings on the char ICly. He constantly berated other people's chars..oocly and ICly. Was always tellin everyone to hurry. And his char apparently disobeyed every order that the groups chosen leader was given. His char got to the point he was purposefully doing things in order to annoy other chars. And was proud of it. I wanted that char gone..I wanted the PC gone. After I left things happened and he got split...at least for now. Many of the players left now are quite happy with the fact that..hey..he might be gone for good. They might not have to game with him. Why? Because he has a majorly annoying char. And only the DM and one other players in the group knows this guy oocly. So really, you made your bed. You made an obnoxious char that everybody wants to hate. You made one thats bad for the group. You made the guy nobody wants to be around. The DM only had you play out being proud. If everyone else is fine with your char being annoying. Thats ok with me. I know of one guy in the group who often plays a backstabber.....or the shadey guy. Someone you can't trust..but we often talk oocly..more than a few times..encouraging him. He's great to talk to oocly...and he is openly willing to talk oocly, makes jokes. Etc. I know how he is like compared to his chars..and I don't mind his chars as much because of this.
Tsuul 04-13-04, 03:16 AM	My guess is that the CN nature of your character came out a bit more strongly then you let on in your post. People generaly don't kick out good role players. They kick out disruptions. Just a hunch though, with no factual basis.
Sir Todd 04-13-04, 07:12 AM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden For the third time- the only "personality trait" the DM assigned to our OP was "proud"- hardly a "bad" trait. :banghead: Gee I don't know... How COULD I think Proud is a bad trait?! - Pride is one of the seven deadly sins - And the common lore phrase 'With pride comes a great fall' obviously illustrates that even in folklore/commonlore people realize its a bad trait. But aside from all that You COMPLETELY missed the whole point of that paragraph. Which is to say randomly assigning personality traits is BAD.
olshanski_home 04-13-04, 07:33 AM	Booting a person out of a game is one of the hardest things to do. The DM spent time with you, working on character creation with you, etc. The DM likely had to create an excuse for your character joining the party and may have even updated his world to include an obscure character race (golmoid). Then the DM and his friends spent an evening gaming with you. That is no small investment in time and energy for both the DM and the group. I think your DM probably had a very good reason for booting you out of the game. In the future, regardless of what your stats dictate out of your character, I have the following suggestions: 1. Be kind, considerate, respectful, friendly, good humored, and modest out of character. 2. If your character is rude/loud/etc... minimize the rudeness. (more to follow). 3. Bathe and be well groomed before every session. 4. If you bring food, bring food for everyone. 5. for the first several sessions (out of character), do not discuss politics, religeon, abortion, fair labor practices, or any other topic that is known to be divisive. About roleplaying CHA: This is a game... we allow light or wimply players to play a strong fighter. We allow a shy or quiet person to play a suave and charming bard. If the person lacks the ability to roleplay the good charisma, that is what the dice rolls are for... the shy person can say "I'll use gather information to find out about the captain of the guard's mistress, I'll grease the right palms with 10 GP and buy everyone drinks if it will help."... then let the dice do the work. Likewise, a rude person can say "I'll use diplomacy to impress the shopkeeper with my proud bearing... I'll take a 10, and since I have a 6 charisma that means I get an 8" If, however, you are very good friends with everyone, and they know that in real life you are kind and modest... then by all means ham it up with your character... just let everyone in on the joke and be prepared to be sarcasticly ridiculed. If your character is proud... let him so proud that he doesn't recognize when he is being ridiculed. If you are suave in real life (playing the suave bard)... you can still act it up... pay extra complements to merchants or opponents "you have quite remarkable eyes." It is over-the-top, but it is entertaining for everyone. I've booted people for failure to bathe, having an overbearing (loud/rude) personality, and failure to have a sense of humor. I certainly do not like booting people, but gaming time is very precious (with my having a wife, child, and 2 jobs)... I need to be sure that any gaming time is spent with really fun people, who I'd be glad to hang out with whether we are gaming or not.
Edymnion 04-13-04, 12:36 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden For the third time- the only "personality trait" the DM assigned to our OP was "proud"- hardly a "bad" trait. :banghead: The point is that the DM had no right to dictate character personality in the first place. I'm a very firm believer that the world is the DM's, and the PCs are the player's. The DM has ZERO right to tell a player how a character should be played, or to make fundamental changes to said character. He can ask the player to make the changes, he can impose penalties if they don't, but forcing something like that is a huge no-no. After all, you don't see the PCs telling the DM how to run the BBEG, or overriding his dungeon layout. You can't simply say "No, there's another passage to the left to a room filled with treasure" if you're the player. Just like the DM can't say "No, your character doesn't do that, he does this instead." Personally, this all sounds like a personality conflict, equal blame on both sides. The DM screwed up royal by dictating personality traits. The Player screwed up by playing the character rudely and abbrasivly during the first game with a new group. And really, we're only hearing one side of this. I would really prefer to lay off saying which side is right and which side is wrong overall until I heard the DM's side of the story, and the side of the other players. After all, we all tend to sugar coat our stories to make ourselves look as blameless as possible.
Stafir Ortnev 04-14-04, 01:15 AM	Number 1..Pride is not a bad thing..unless your too proud. Pride can help you alot. It also means you feel good over what you do etc. Your character is just proud thats all. Pride is not arrogant..pride is not annoying. And there is much you can say of a person proud of their past. and Number 2....he had to agree to these rules to play. He agreed to getting some of his background decided. And some people actually like to play under such rules. I don't care if you feel a DM shouldn't mess with it. Some like the DM messing with it..and none the less..he agred to that before hand. Just as some prefer rolling up score...and taking what they get randomly...instead of point buy. But it still stands that the player agreed to this....so there is no point whinin on this.
bitnine 04-14-04, 01:43 AM	Wait... You mean to tell me that a proud chaotic neutral barbarian with a charisma of 6 isn't the ideal team player? My shock knows no bounds! I guess I might contrive an introverted barbarian trying to prove himself to others while yet still able to interact with friends without conflict - but that's one hell of a contrivance. I guess some groups don't like any personality conflicts within the party, which is fine. But they really should have said that. Many folk draw up an interesting character who they don't have see some sort of blazing PC symbol over the heads of certain other people in the world - some groups even enjoy seeing different interactions between characters, including PCs who don't necessarily get along all the time. Some groups don't. However, yeah... that's probably not the best introductory character for a new group. They didn't tell you that they didn't want anyone to rock the party boat, and perhaps you shouldn't have had to ask, but it probably wouldn't have hurt. Or, at the very least, starting a group with a more agreeable character as you get to know people OOC and get acclimated to their customs is probably a good idea. Unless you don't care to play in a group that can't take a little bit of intraparty tension. In that case, view this as a litmus test that let you know right away that this wasn't the sort of game that you are interested in.
Daybreaker 04-14-04, 03:21 AM	Well, one way or another, I'd say that the DM was probably right -- it's probably a bad idea for you to play there. Whether that's your fault or his, I can't say. The only advice I can think of is that when you're playing a jerk character, you might want to distance yourself from the character a bit by being extra nice whenever you're not deep in roleplaying. Make sure everybody knows that it's the character, not you. A non-team character is easy to overlook, and can add to the game. A non-team player is another matter. Informing you via email does seem odd.
Null Boundry 04-14-04, 09:39 AM	Originally posted by Sir Todd Gee I don't know... How COULD I think Proud is a bad trait?! - Pride is one of the seven deadly sins - And the common lore phrase 'With pride comes a great fall' obviously illustrates that even in folklore/commonlore people realize its a bad trait. But aside from all that You COMPLETELY missed the whole point of that paragraph. Which is to say randomly assigning personality traits is BAD. Why is assigning traits a bad thing? If it works for their group all well and good, maybe they like the challange of playing a charecter they would not have normally chosen or many other reasons. If your not happy with the set up at the start and restrictions based on charecter generation talk to the DM, raise you're concerns and if the worst comes to the worst don't play. Also I seemed to have missed the memo declaring you're form of the game the True Game. So if someone could forward it on I make sure the ones I'm involved with comply. Many thanks.
Sir Todd 04-14-04, 12:33 PM	Originally posted by Null Boundry Why is assigning traits a bad thing? If it works for their group all well and good, maybe they like the challange of playing a charecter they would not have normally chosen or many other reasons. If your not happy with the set up at the start and restrictions based on charecter generation talk to the DM, raise you're concerns and if the worst comes to the worst don't play. Also I seemed to have missed the memo declaring you're form of the game the True Game. So if someone could forward it on I make sure the ones I'm involved with comply. Many thanks. Gee Null Boundry, I don't recall anyone saying my game was the only way to do this. I stated my opinion. If you like to play a paladin with the randomly assigned trait 'traitorous backstabber' (Which could enitrely be possible if your rolling randomly) Then by all means ignore my advice. All I was saying is that it makes much more sense to SELECT not roll if your using personalities. Or maybe you think your way is the only way that matters and thats why your making this off the wall attack? There are personalities I would never play. And if a GM said I would be forced to play one I would simply walk out. I mean its common sense. Not everyone can play every role. Nor should everyone have to know how to play every role. The important thing (when your playing in a 'role' heavy game) is to be good at playing at least one role. It should be up to the player when to expand the number of roles he can properly portray not the GM or anyone else. After all the #1 goal of these games is to have FUN. So play what you can and have fun. Don't try to force others to play the way you want with a random table or any other way.
ChaoticGod 04-14-04, 01:21 PM	The randomly picked trait was Proud. Proud doesn't in itself equal rude, loud, or abrasive. Even an orc barbarian could be proud of his combat abilty, of his heritage, of his strength etc. Sure he may be an uncultured savage but that doesn't mean that he has to actively be a jerk. Charisma 6 doesn't in itself equal rude, loud or abrasive. Actually Charisma 6 means a weak force of personality. To actively be loud, rude and abrasive one has to have a fairly strong personality to project those negative traits. The one flaw I see in your roleplaying is that you seem to lean to negative personality traits when you envision a character. From what I have read here (sorry if I missed it) the DM never imposed rude or abrasive behavior on this PC. That was your choice and I must say it was a poor one. I suggest that you email this DM back. Be calm and polite and apologize for the direction of your previous RP. Request another character creation session so that you can talk about making a character that will fit the party's needs. Sadly you will probably have to do some applepolishing to get back into this group due to your past behavior. Take it in stride.
Demon Lightfoot 04-14-04, 01:33 PM	I don't see what the issue is with playing a character as rude and abrasive; conflict, within and without the party, drives the game. Read a good book or watch a good movie and you'll see characters who conflict with one another as they interact. Even friends and loved ones regularly come into conflict with the protagonists. In the classic Doc Savage series, two of the main characters had a good-natured (?) long-running feud stemming from their shared military service, and would instantly become rivals for the affections of any damsels whom they ran across in the course of their adventures. In my wife's D&D campaign, my kobold rogue/witchdoctor and another player's viciously unpleasant and chauvanistic half-elf cleric/wizard have a never-ending war of nerves going on, and it does nothing but enrich the experience for everyone. Frankly, that DM sounds like a damned idiot who should have his dice revoked, and the rest of the hothouse flowers in the group should give up gaming to write Strawberry Shortcake fanfic. I wouldn't waste my time on them.
olshanski_home 04-14-04, 02:27 PM	Demon lightfoot, How many DMs do you think actually boot someone who is a fun person to play with simply because they created a character that is rude and arrogant? Don't most DM's say "please create a new character" if the player is good but the character doesn't mesh with the party? If you believe that DMs shouldn't boot a person for "personality conflict", then you are sadly in need of better company. When you can pick and choose your players from fun, entertaining, and personable friends... there is no need to put up with someone who seems to be an arrogant jerk. If you think this makes me a hothouse flower who should write strawberry shortcake fanfic... you are wrong. I'd much rather write "my pretty pony" fanfic.
Nyvinyd 04-14-04, 02:34 PM	Why did you use a random background chart in the first place? Seems a bit lazy to me. It really isn't that hard to come up with a background and personality.
was_fired 04-14-04, 03:42 PM	You should have been booted. When you first enter a group your first priority should be integrating yourself into it. Sure it can be fun to have friends play feuding characters, but you are not one of their friends yet. You are just some random person who showed up for the game and is now insulting their character. Your character's personality is yours to decide and interpret. If you don't make one which fits the game though, still bring it there, and play it you shoudn't expect to be invited back. If I am playing in a world with no goblins and someone brings in a goblin and refuses to change it they can leave. If I am running a game and someone brings in a character which annoys everyone else and they insist on playing it then they can leave to.
bitnine 04-15-04, 03:03 AM	Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot I don't see what the issue is with playing a character as rude and abrasive; conflict, within and without the party, drives the game. Read a good book or watch a good movie and you'll see characters who conflict with one another as they interact. Even friends and loved ones regularly come into conflict with the protagonists.I've had much the same experience, but that doesn't mean that some groups don't play D&D as a team-based adventure game. Lessee, I think I mentioned something thereabouts in another thread a while back:Well, you have to realize that many people play the game in different ways for a variety of reasons. Some people want to play a team-based game to have fun, experience a variety of interesting encounters, and accrue loot and experience fairly. If that's the type of game that the players want to play, introducing a character that messes up that standard gameplay is disrespectful. Of course, part of that is that oftentimes the DM doesn't lay down these customs and rules when the player is drawing up a character and joining the group - so it can be a communication issue. I've played in a variety of style of games, some like the above, others where intraparty conflict was a fairly big part of the story, and even one where two groups of players basically played warring parties. I've seen some games emphasize portraying characters and telling a story, and others put more of a focus on questing and playing a game as a team.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-15-04, 04:01 AM	I've had to temporarily eject a player for over playing a character before. People just don't realize that you do, in fact have to put a little meta spin on it so you end up with a chacter that can function in a group. As an aside, 'proud' is too wide a term to have even bothered 'assigning'.
pawsplay 04-19-04, 01:02 AM	I played a Cha 6 Wizard once. He had a hawk for a familiar, it left a mess on his ratty wolfskin cloak. He had a decent Intimidate score, so he walked around looking paranoid and slightly dangerous. He carried a battle-axe. I played him as the most acidic, sarcastic, self-deprecating person I could imagine. His reply to, "I don't like you very much," was "I don't like myself very much, either." He wandered into shops while other PCs bought stuff, and his mere presence caused deals to falter and prices to go up. I had a great time playing him... and my other players loved him, too. But they already knew me, and that might make a difference. In short, I think you were booted out of a gaming group worth being booted out of.
CrippleMrOnion 04-19-04, 05:06 PM	I may be in the minority here, but a basic principle that any DM worth their salt remembers is that no one character's principles should override a party. This is often a problem with a paladin in a group with a poor DM. If there was a problem, whether due to your character or to you, then something needed to be done. That aside, they should have at least asked you to come one more time with a new character. If you played something different and they didn't have a problem, then everyone would be happy and we wouldn't be having this post. However, if, in fact, it's you that's the problem and not your roleplaying (just a possibility--I can't possibly know one way or the other), then there'd be no question after a second session. Remember, to a decent DM, the worst thing a player can do is hog the spotlight and game from everyone else. I know because I'm both a DM and a player who's guilty of doing that from time to time... Ask for one more session. If you're not like your character, and not rude and proud, then you shouldn't have a problem doing a little groveling. If they still say no, then they're to much a stick in the mud anyway. If they say yes, for god's sake, play something with a high charisma, eh?
CrippleMrOnion 04-19-04, 05:07 PM	Man I hate people who double post! Don't you? This is my first time ever, swear!
Xavori 04-19-04, 06:07 PM	Ok, here's what I think: It wont matter if they email/tell you that they dont like you in the group for reason "x", nor for reason "y", it wont ever be the same point of view as yours, wanna know why? Its because they are being polite, or they are actually making up stuff because there is some other unknown reason that you simply cant guess! Conclusion: human beings are ruled by many things, that vary in each being, and most of them say things in a way intended not to hurt others feelings, thus masking the real reason of their actions In basic english: you wont be able to guess, ever, because there are almost infinite reasons for this guys to kick you out. note: I was kicked from a group once because I used the word "thingie" too many times! Isnt that a bad thingie to thingie me out of their thingie? :88E: <--------------- Thingie!
mazaudi 04-20-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by Xavori note: I was kicked from a group once because I used the word "thingie" too many times! Isnt that a bad thingie to thingie me out of their thingie? :88E: <--------------- Thingie! You know... some groups can be so stupid... :hoppingma
Xavori 04-20-04, 04:28 PM	Originally posted by mazaudi You know... some groups can be so stupid... :hoppingma I WAS KIDDING AND BEING SARCASTIC! :rofl: :D sorry if it looked real ;) About this thing(ie) with the "I kick joo outa my game cause joo dont rox as much as my 133t pow4 players" I really havent thought of anything else...
thugpoetry 04-21-04, 07:13 PM	My opinion: I'd lay more blame on the DM and the group than on the booted person, yet I would lay some blame on the person. DM: 1) Use not the random tables, for stupidly wasteful are they of your time. And invite not those with whom already you have played and disliked. Tough it is not to understand that those who you disliked before are still dislikable. Honestly, this was the stupidest part, from what I've heard. Group: 2) If problems you have with person, honest enough be to talk to person during game, so wasted, time is not. Person: <drops yoda syntax>: 3) Even though you have logical reasons for playing that particular interpretation of proud, which is a point that a lot of people on this thread seem to either miss or intentionally ignore, you should have realized that a rude character is rude in realtime. Which means that the other people have to put up with you. There are a couple of people I used to play with who I never quite trusted in game after the first few sessions, because I *knew* that their idea of fun was to deceive/betray/cause non-team based DnD gameplay. I prefer a "band of brothers" approach. Thankfully, neither was a long-term addition to the campaign, as I might have killed or gotton killed by that other person, leading to a dissolving of the party. Incompatible gaming styles. To follow up a point I made somewhere in that diatribe, he was assigned the trait "proud" and chose a charisma of 6. To paraphrase Bitnine's eloquent statement "WHADDAYA MEAN THAT'S WHAT 'APPENED? WHODATHUNK IT??!?!" A cha of six usually doesn't mean restrained. And Charisma isn't always appearance. Myself, I have a physical charisma of about 10. Right at normal. Personality, though, drops me to about a 4 or 5 with most people. Enough ranting.
mazaudi 04-21-04, 09:15 PM	Originally posted by Xavori I WAS KIDDING AND BEING SARCASTIC! :rofl: :D sorry if it looked real ;) About this thing(ie) with the "I kick joo outa my game cause joo dont rox as much as my 133t pow4 players" I really havent thought of anything else... I must have went blonde for a second there... :bigeyes:
pokemaniacbill 04-21-04, 09:19 PM	Sucks to be you, dude, you had a DM more interested in freeforming then playing a roleplaying game. Blech.
Loftower 04-21-04, 09:40 PM	Yes, there are other ways to play CHA 6 + proud, but WilliamPall’s way is not wrong as posted. Yes, I find the wheel-o-personality unpleasant, but if the players agreed then deal with it. Since I read the original post more as a WTF plea, I’m going to start from a different angle. How much role play were the other players doing? Were you in character more often than anyone else? That would be a big flag for me. Maybe the DM is being at least somewhat honest (could happen), maybe you play differently than he and his players. If you spend more time in character than everyone else, and your character isn’t easy to enjoy, then a problem was unavoidable. Even if you were playing Prince Charming (bleah!) there would have been a problem. I would probably send an “I hope I didn’t ruin your session”-type apology and look for a group that can appreciate a well-played boor (they’re out there). I’ve been playing for something like 25 years and I DM much more than I play. I have a very strong personality. When I join a new group (even a new adventure run by a long-time friend) I have to be very careful not to be overbearing. Even so, I fail a lot. I play a lot of moderate CHA characters and force myself to fade into the background, otherwise I run the risk of being the boor -- and I don’t mean my character.
Another Gnome 04-22-04, 06:46 AM	No amount of in-game rules can tell what people think about one another outside the game or what kind of impression they give. Blaming the rules for what happened is a bad excuse. From reading the starting post, the mental image I get is quite enough to justify kicking someone out as a DM. That said, I also get the feeling WilliamPall is not a bad person as such, so the DM refusing to give him a chance to explain himself is definitely overreacting, especially since they've played together before. In this particular case. In general however, the point is that real-world feelings always come first in a social game like D&D, and rarely if ever is there a reason to hurt anyone else's real feelings no matter how extreme a character is. If something like that then happens, there's no excuse for it. The offending party is the one who made the mistake, and whether it's been intentional or not or if the offending party finds his/her own actions offending is irrelevant. And finally, even when the rest of the people are too thin-skinned to understand they're overreacting themselves, one usually doesn't blame the victim for getting shot, so to speak. Another matter is if things can be fixed by explaining or discussing what has happened, but in these cases the unfortunate fact is that the accused is guilty until proven innocent.
Dorian H 04-22-04, 12:57 PM	Originally posted by olshanski_home I think your DM probably had a very good reason for booting you out of the game. In the future, regardless of what your stats dictate out of your character, I have the following suggestions: 1. Be kind, considerate, respectful, friendly, good humored, and modest out of character. 2. If your character is rude/loud/etc... minimize the rudeness. (more to follow). 3. Bathe and be well groomed before every session. 4. If you bring food, bring food for everyone. 5. for the first several sessions (out of character), do not discuss politics, religeon, abortion, fair labor practices, or any other topic that is known to be divisive. This is very important and should be observed anytime you join a group. I would add three to these. 5'.As for not bringing any divisive topic to conversation, avoid bringing drugs, wearing hard metall fan clothes, or, (but my example though not american can be extended to US) clothes depicting you as a fan of a non-local footabll team. Well, be consensual 6. Do not steal the show. Every player at a table must participate and have his heroic moments, do not steal them by being always at the center of the stage. By the way, as alternative reasons to your booting. 7. You may not get on with people. Even with you and them being nice. Sometimes people just don't get with each other. In wich case there is nor eason spending one's leisure time with someone you don't like 8. A four player + DM is necessarily something at least slightly different than their former 3 player + DM. It may mean a different style of play or perhaps less DM-time for players or a slower pace. In which case they may have decided afterwards that 3P was better, even with this having nothing to do with you
was_fired 04-22-04, 02:46 PM	Reading the post over I can't help but summon up this impression: DM, "An old man with dark blue eyes and short grey hair sits behind the desk. He looks up as you enter the room and motions to some chairs." Old Player, "I sit down. Greetings good sir I..." New Player, "YOU SUURE ARE OLD!" DM, "The old man laughs at replies, 'Yes I have seen many a winter. Now why did you want to see me?'" Old Player, "Um right... I have heard your daughter is missing. How did this come to pass." DM, "She was in the woods when they took her. I would gladly give you what little I have to bring her back, but I am a poor man..." New Player, "Bah my time is worth more than this. He isn't going to pay us. Besides he isn't poor he is the mayor of the thorp. That desk looks nice! He's a liar." DM, "This is common property purchased..." New Player, "Suuuuure it is you theif." DM, "'I will not be insulted like this. Get out now!'" Other Players *glare* New Player, "Hey I was just roleplaying my chaotic alignment and charisma of 6."
eudas 04-22-04, 05:39 PM	that's pretty much how i imagined it. he roleplayed what he rolled, and they took it OOC and thought he was just a rude bastard, so they booted him. An unfortunate set of things to roll, but I doubt he'll get a second chance to show them otherwise. *shrug* eudas
BeautifulFighter 05-20-04, 03:14 AM	Ask yourself this...What is D&D all about? My answer...roleplaying. You were doing the right thing. But if the group isn't having fun with it then maybe make a different character.
Big Dawg 05-21-04, 02:36 PM	posted by Salla If he says no, then inform him that Salla, who has been RPG'ing for 20 years, is of the opinion that he is a no-talent hack who has no right to call himself a Dungeon Master, and his game is the recreational equivalent of a ten care pile-up. :rofl: well said salla, Though I don't have 20 years under my belt like Salla, I'd have to say he is 100% correct. I think you should tell your DM that. show him this thread.