Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kargush 12-04-07, 04:44 AM	I've run into a little issue with a killer DM. The group is playing a divine game, where so far, 3 players have reached the status of lower gods, DR 1 or 2 if I recall correctly. And me and another player are thus far mortal, but on the way. Now, there is little issue here. The deities are busy keeping followers alive after they angered another god, and us mortals are busy making a powerbase when the entire group isn't out on some little adventure. The problem is the DM. He is a pure killer. We're an EL 17 party, and we've so far hit on things up to CR 21... Our DM peruses the Optimization Boards to get idea, and uses his knowledge of our characters to preemt us. His latest monster, a Death Giant with class levels(Swordsage no less) almost got us killed. He did leave a weakness, but one we didn't find until afterwards, and if one of our god-players hadn't sacrificed some "divine point" to power up a spell, we'd be FUBAR... Had the Giant gotten past our minions, we'd be dead. My summoned elementals and myself couldn't hit a wall, the Giant needed to roll a 2 to save against anything we threw at him, and we were already weakened by days of harrying by invisible assassins... We're constantly thrown up against things that either leave us barely alive, or that we have to run from. And he hits on the weakest characters to draw in the god-characters. What am I to do? I know I could always drop the game, and only play when we play someone else's game(we play every monday, varying between 4 games), but that is unsatisfactory, since I love to play DnD, and I've grown attached to my Druid...
white_daemon 12-04-07, 06:31 AM	I'm not sure if there are rules for making your own players gods, but I think your DM should have waited for some obscene epic level first before doing such a thing. It sounds like the party is unbalanced to me. If asking your DM to go easy on the mortal members isn't working, there's not much you can do-- you might have gods in the party, but he's the DM. And if they really are gods, even lesser ones, then shouldn't they know everything and get +infinity to all knowledge checks? But you have to always keep this in mind: are you having fun? Even though you are being pushed to your limits every week by his insane encounters, are you all still having fun, or not? Because if in truth no one in your group has fun when he DMs, you can always threaten a players' boycott or strike.
Fatalis_902 12-04-07, 06:43 AM	There are three steps you need to follow to fix this problem: Step 1: Talk to your DM. Preferably as a group, if others feel the same way as you. Simply explain that you feel the game is becoming to lethal, that it is no longer fun for you, and would it be possible for him to done it done a few CRs. If he is a nice guy, not sarcastic or easily angered, and your friend, he should understand, and be willing to adjust somewhat. If he won' adjust, move on to step 2. Step 2: Beat him at his own game. You said he's perusing that CharOp boards for his critters, right? Do the same for your characters. You're playing a Druid, it shouldn't be that difficult to optimize to a point of survivability, and beyond. Natural Spell feat, Augment Summoning feat, choose some of the better forms of wildshape and abuse like hell... See the CharOp boards for more info. This should allow you to survive much more effectively. If he responds with even better creatures to combat your newly optimized druid, procede to step 3. Step 3: Hammergun time! If you tried talking to him, to no avail, and you tried optimizing to match his game, and he responded with even better monsters than before, you need to bust out the hammergun. Just should him once, and all your problems will be over. Or rather, all your D&D problems will be over, as if he survives, he will likely press assault charges against you, and if he doesn't, it's murder. So, talk to him one last time before you shoot him. Make certain to brandish the weapon threateningly as you do so, and maybe fire a warning shot at his box of minis before you actually shoot him.* *Do NOT actually follow through with step 3. It is satire, and should not actually be performed. Instead, if steps one and two fail, leave his game, and come back for the others that you enjoy. This works much better at preserving friendships and keeping you out of jail.
Wight_Chocolate 12-04-07, 06:53 AM	*Do NOT actually follow through with step 3. It is satire, and should not actually be performed. Somehow I don't think you need worry, given the level of difficulty involved in actually locating a hammergun.
wordserpent 12-04-07, 08:12 AM	Somehow I don't think you need worry, given the level of difficulty involved in actually locating a hammergun. You never know...if one can't find a hammergun, then one might choose a nailgun instead...and that would be bad...so don't use a nailgun either.
DrMorganes 12-04-07, 08:49 AM	Agreed. Disclaimers are always a good idea these days. Heck, whoda thought that somebody would have sued over a cup of coffee? I mean, until recently coffee was hot by definition!
Cartigan 12-04-07, 09:57 AM	What am I to do? The group is playing a divine game, where so far, 3 players have reached the status of lower gods, DR 1 or 2 if I recall correctly. And me and another player are thus far mortal, but on the way. Deal.
mato_hibiki 12-04-07, 11:23 AM	... Wait until you hit divine rank one, then go to town? Seriously, that's it right there. Have you seen what you can do in that book? Bide your time, then claim sweet, sweet revenge. ... And a hammergun is just a modified crossbow, FYI. Not that I've... Built one, or anything. :incog:
Etarnon 12-04-07, 12:13 PM	So he's a killer GM, but the player's PCs have advanced to godlike status, and "others are on the way." What did I miss here? A truly killer GM would not let people get past third. Sounds like he's challenging you to your utmost.
Hsien 12-04-07, 12:53 PM	Killer DM? ECL 17 party ( with 2 God characters?) taking on a CR 21 That's generally no big deal, in my exp. Now if the party levels are very unbalanced, like several members are level 10-13...well that's different, they would have a tough/deadly time hanging adventuring with god-like characters, lvls 20+???. Minus the god-like characters, recentlly dealt with that issue...my group has since started a new campaign that doesn't automatically make "new characters = victims" due to severe differences in levels. ( rant done,thanks needed that )
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 01:13 PM	And if they really are gods, even lesser ones, then shouldn't they know everything and get +infinity to all knowledge checks? Deities get a bonus on skill checks equal to their Divine Rank... in this case, 1 or 2. But seriously, I think it was probably bad form to give some of the players a Divine Rank without giving one to everybody. Just going to Divine Rank 0 is such a huge power jump it's not even funny. Personally, I think you should talk to your DM about the power disparity, especially if the other mortal character's player feels that he can't contribute either. But if you really want to break your Druid, there are only two words: Planar Shepherd.
Kargush 12-06-07, 03:16 AM	I'm not sure if there are rules for making your own players gods, but I think your DM should have waited for some obscene epic level first before doing such a thing. It sounds like the party is unbalanced to me. If asking your DM to go easy on the mortal members isn't working, there's not much you can do-- you might have gods in the party, but he's the DM. And if they really are gods, even lesser ones, then shouldn't they know everything and get +infinity to all knowledge checks? But you have to always keep this in mind: are you having fun? Even though you are being pushed to your limits every week by his insane encounters, are you all still having fun, or not? Because if in truth no one in your group has fun when he DMs, you can always threaten a players' boycott or strike. The fun is going out the door. Being unable to even get even when hammered is no fun at all. Reminds me too much of my days as a target for bullies... And that lasted 10 years... Step 2: Beat him at his own game. You said he's perusing that CharOp boards for his critters, right? Do the same for your characters. You're playing a Druid, it shouldn't be that difficult to optimize to a point of survivability, and beyond. Natural Spell feat, Augment Summoning feat, choose some of the better forms of wildshape and abuse like hell... See the CharOp boards for more info. This should allow you to survive much more effectively. If he responds with even better creatures to combat your newly optimized druid, procede to step 3. I have done that. And there is no fun in combating a thing that can save against your every spell, and play jail-house-rape with your mightiest summoned critter. Not to mention that having a locked garrote around your neck(placed there by an invisible optimized assassin, or even the god we ****** off) is not conducive to Wild Shape, unless the desired form is small enough to fall through... ... Wait until you hit divine rank one, then go to town? Seriously, that's it right there. Have you seen what you can do in that book? Bide your time, then claim sweet, sweet revenge. He's stringent on what he gives the gods, and since they depend on worshippers, and said worshippers are being attacked by a vengeful god with lots of money and a killer dungeon, we're not that mighty. And I have to wait to get the divine ranks. And if my character dies, and it's been two close brushes in as many sessions, I go back to mortal again, with no worshippers...
Legdiwena 12-06-07, 03:09 PM	Don't gods know anything involving their portfolio a week before it happens? Almost being killed would affect the portfolio methinks.
toucanbuzz 12-06-07, 04:04 PM	If you get to play gods, I can't see any point in complaining about the tough encounters. It's actually a good thing; you seem a bit worried about losing your character, and only folks who are interested in their game worry about losing characters. I may be off. :duel: I do have to agree, wouldn't gods see it coming? :angel:
white_daemon 12-06-07, 04:17 PM	So far, it seems like every suggestion except shooting your DM with a hammer gun has been shot down. You are either in dire need of talking to your DM, or completely over exaggerating the situation. So just talk to him. Tell him that he's actually more of a prime minister than a dictator, and the proverbial "vote of no confidence" can expel him at any time from his position of power. Make your DM understand that the position of the DM is one of service the players, and that having fun is more important than stretching the party's boundaries as close to the breaking point as possible. Either that, or get over it.
Dog_O_War 12-06-07, 04:57 PM	What is the actual class levels that you guys posses? Because in my books, Divine rank is worth a +5 to LA, at the very least. Epic DR, elemental resists, super-senses, a Divine Power, Cast cleric spells as per the domains you represent at your character level. How could some crappy giant even pose a challenge? What you need are some magic items; ones that are encounter-winners. There is one spell that you use to battle things you can't otherwise beat. Temporal Stasis. No save. Just touch and win. If that's not going to work, use a lure. A super-giant assassin like the one you've described is murder; to the enemy worshippers. Lure it to places such as temples and towns allied to the enemy god. Have him destroy himself. Summon mass low-level creatures; 20 lantern archons can kill an eldrich giant (I know 'cause I've done it). Use tactics you've never used before, like teleporting vats of acid, or a two-way gate to a lava flow to rough-up the enemy. If you're melee or otherwise a non-caster; bulk up on one character aspect; AC, damage, HP, tricks, etc... pick one and only one, and overwhelm the enemy with it. Who cares if you're taking 200 damage a round if you've got 400 HP? That is an entire round a super-powered creature accomplishes nothing, 'cause at that level, you've got the ability to heal to full every turn (usually). He may only seem "killer" because you are high level, and he's stopped pulling punches.
Hippokrene 12-06-07, 05:28 PM	Agreed. Disclaimers are always a good idea these days. Heck, whoda thought that somebody would have sued over a cup of coffee? I mean, until recently coffee was hot by definition! If you have to have surgery because your genitalia is melted together, then the coffee was too hot.
mvincent 12-06-07, 06:24 PM	We're an EL 17 party, and we've so far hit on things up to CR 21Sounds like he's doing his job (challenging people with access to 9th level spells can be tough). Now do your job... play like you earned those levels. 1) Check the optimization boards for better tactics. 2) Have someone use limited wish liberally to reduce your opponent's saves. 3) Have Foresight and Moment of Prescience constantly going (use a major ring of spell-storing and a greater metamagic rod of extend to allow your party's mage to hook you up) 4) Keep a luck blade (or two) always on your person. 5) Use a prayer bead of karma and a candle of invocation when buffing. 6) Although your summoned monster are unlikely to hit things, huge earth elementals are still excellent for bull-rushing (say, into a prismatic wall or somesuch). 7) Try to have your adventures while astrally projecting 8) Even if you die, you can always just get True Resurrected
Grizzled Gryphon 12-06-07, 06:46 PM	I prefer the 20mm recoilless rifle. much more satisfying, and with the murder rate to being caught for it rate at only 15%, you have a decent chance of getting a way with it. Of course, firing off a 20mm recoilless rifle probably skews that a little bit in favor of the cops catching you, but...
Kargush 12-07-07, 05:47 AM	Double post, please remove...
Kargush 12-07-07, 05:48 AM	What is the actual class levels that you guys posses? Because in my books, Divine rank is worth a +5 to LA, at the very least. Epic DR, elemental resists, super-senses, a Divine Power, Cast cleric spells as per the domains you represent at your character level. How could some crappy giant even pose a challenge? What you need are some magic items; ones that are encounter-winners. There is one spell that you use to battle things you can't otherwise beat. Temporal Stasis. No save. Just touch and win. If that's not going to work, use a lure. A super-giant assassin like the one you've described is murder; to the enemy worshippers. Lure it to places such as temples and towns allied to the enemy god. Have him destroy himself. Summon mass low-level creatures; 20 lantern archons can kill an eldrich giant (I know 'cause I've done it). Use tactics you've never used before, like teleporting vats of acid, or a two-way gate to a lava flow to rough-up the enemy. If you're melee or otherwise a non-caster; bulk up on one character aspect; AC, damage, HP, tricks, etc... pick one and only one, and overwhelm the enemy with it. Who cares if you're taking 200 damage a round if you've got 400 HP? That is an entire round a super-powered creature accomplishes nothing, 'cause at that level, you've got the ability to heal to full every turn (usually). He may only seem "killer" because you are high level, and he's stopped pulling punches. A Death Giant with class levels is not crappy. And the GM is very stringent with what he gives out. And as a mortal character with a mre 156 HP, getting hit for 80+ in one round is not fun. And that's before CON sapping poison... In short, we have 3 gods, busy with keeping their portfolios and followers from being ganked, and 2 mortals. After a sapping fight with the Death Giant, a fight that consumed a lot of spells and stuff(thanks to the saves of that thing...), we're now off to face invisible assassins in a city... And with only 2 players with 9th level spells, and limited spell slots, we're screwed...
Grumman 12-07-07, 06:26 AM	Temporal Stasis. No save. Just touch and win. Temporal Stasis allows a Fort save.
Fatalis_902 12-07-07, 06:50 AM	I have done that. And there is no fun in combating a thing that can save against your every spell, and play jail-house-rape with your mightiest summoned critter. Not to mention that having a locked garrote around your neck(placed there by an invisible optimized assassin, or even the god we ****** off) is not conducive to Wild Shape, unless the desired form is small enough to fall through... Wildshape causes any gear you possess to meld into your new form, if that form cannot wear/use the item. Your collar can't contain the beast.
Kargush 12-07-07, 06:55 AM	Trouble is, I am the druid. With a locked garrot around my throat. And it's not my gear, plus the assassin has his hand on it... Now tell me what happens when I Wild Shape into a Large creature with a collar too tight for a Medium creature around my neck...? A sharp one at that... And a DM that insists on instant decapitation...
Cartigan 12-07-07, 09:34 AM	Wildshape into something small :rolleyes:
Dog_O_War 12-07-07, 10:47 AM	Temporal Stasis allows a Fort save. Sorry, I'm stuck in the past. I only re-read an entire spell book when there is a major change to it, or if someone points out to me that a spell is different now (like haste, the animal-cracker buffs, etc...).
Dog_O_War 12-07-07, 10:53 AM	A Death Giant with class levels is not crappy. And the GM is very stringent with what he gives out. And as a mortal character with a mre 156 HP, getting hit for 80+ in one round is not fun. And that's before CON sapping poison... In short, we have 3 gods, busy with keeping their portfolios and followers from being ganked, and 2 mortals. After a sapping fight with the Death Giant, a fight that consumed a lot of spells and stuff(thanks to the saves of that thing...), we're now off to face invisible assassins in a city... And with only 2 players with 9th level spells, and limited spell slots, we're screwed... Your a druid. Cast creeping doom or something. Have your other caster buddy to limited wish all the insects of said spell to have magical damage (so they can cut through DR/magic). Maintain a shape that would be impossible to garrote (like a wild boar for example). Also, poison. You are a druid. You are immune to poison are you not? It covers all natural poisons, so unless the giant was creating this poison from magic, you should be immune. That and elemental forms are headless, AND immune to poison; use one of these. I'm trying to help by throwing out ideas here; not to nit-pick.
Darknight303 12-07-07, 11:59 AM	Somehow I don't think you need worry, given the level of difficulty involved in actually locating a hammergun. Modified potato gun FTW!!!!!! Thus easily created.... As for some actual advice, I agree with optimizing your druid.
Legdiwena 12-07-07, 01:20 PM	If the new form is too big for the collar, you should be able to make a strength check to burst free of it.
Sinfire Titan 12-07-07, 08:11 PM	The collar would meld into your new shape, and be completely harmless to you or anyone else while Wild Shaped.
Dog_O_War 12-07-07, 11:07 PM	The collar would meld into your new shape, and be completely harmless to you or anyone else while Wild Shaped. The "collar" is a weapon currently wielded by the enemy, and he's already stated that the DM will rule that no melding will take place.
Sinfire Titan 12-08-07, 12:46 AM	The "collar" is a weapon currently wielded by the enemy, and he's already stated that the DM will rule that no melding will take place. But the collar has a more important being in control of it: the Wearer. Held items are considered attended, but so are worn items. Either the collar would expand to fit it's wearer, or it would stay the size of the holder. If it stays the size of the holder, as the Animal Growth spell states: If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by an animal is similarly enlarged by the spell, though this change has no effect on the magical properties of any such equipment. Also, further emphasis on the collar melding into the druid's body: Wild Shape (Su): Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.
Grumman 12-08-07, 01:31 AM	If the new form is too big for the collar, you should be able to make a strength check to burst free of it. If you're using the Enlarge Person spell to back up this position, it would effectively give him a free strength check, with no chance of self-injury.
Exposed_Wires 12-08-07, 03:38 AM	But the collar has a more important being in control of it: the Wearer. Held items are considered attended, but so are worn items. Either the collar would expand to fit it's wearer, or it would stay the size of the holder. If it stays the size of the holder, as the Animal Growth spell states: Also, further emphasis on the collar melding into the druid's body: Dude, if you're talking about druid gear. The gear they are referring to is all natural. You can't have a metal breastplate meld with you when you wild shape. You cant have a metal collar meld with you when you wild shape. (I'm assuming at the very least the lock is metal.
darkdrifter169 12-08-07, 04:19 AM	Dude, if you're talking about druid gear. The gear they are referring to is all natural. You can't have a metal breastplate meld with you when you wild shape. You cant have a metal collar meld with you when you wild shape. (I'm assuming at the very least the lock is metal. First off druids are prohibited from wearing metal armor. Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones. So at the most your talking rings and amulets(i think most DMs would let that slide) But keep in mind that when a druid changes shape his GEAR also melds with him. Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. And since a druid isn't prohibited from carrying a metal item, i would say that metal still melds into them
Puritan13 12-08-07, 04:49 AM	I think it's pretty clear to most people with a functioning sense of logic that the garrote is not equipment worn by the druid, but, rather a weapon wielded by the attacker. Your only real recourse in this situation has already been suggested: Wildshape into a smaller form.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-08-07, 06:26 AM	Of course, when the Druid wild shapes, his steel sword melds, too. I don't think the material matters in the least.
Kargush 12-10-07, 07:07 AM	Aye, turn into something small, get grappled, turn larger, remain grappled, get poisoned, have the attacker run, and go home. Rinse and repeat. I have no issue with the occasional challenge. However, constantly having to be on our toes, and constantly being challenged by encounters that leave us in shambles and in need of serious rest is harrowing. Seriously. I am personally waiting for the day when the dreaded demon thing with a vorpal dancing greataxe comes along. You know the kind, it's in MM 3 or 4... I bet it'll have class levels too...
Sinfire Titan 12-10-07, 10:24 AM	Aye, turn into something small, get grappled, turn larger, remain grappled, get poisoned, have the attacker run, and go home. Rinse and repeat. I have no issue with the occasional challenge. However, constantly having to be on our toes, and constantly being challenged by encounters that leave us in shambles and in need of serious rest is harrowing. Seriously. I am personally waiting for the day when the dreaded demon thing with a vorpal dancing greataxe comes along. You know the kind, it's in MM 3 or 4... I bet it'll have class levels too... Molydeus is in the FC1. And they don't advance by class levels. Make sure to point that out to him.
Viatos 12-11-07, 12:43 PM	1) Find a way to cripple the other god. Surely there's a tactic that can slaughter a large quantity of weak, defenseless worshippers? If he has foresight, you should have foresight, and if you don't and he does, call DM BS because that's just DM BS. 2) Muscle for your own Divine Rank. Try to become a God of Dragons, or at least something with a decent CR. God of Winter Wolves? I love Winter Wolves, and they can take pretty good care of themselves. This should be your primary goal because it's obvious you don't have and won't get the resources to deal with what you're up against. 3) Stay calm. Focus. Every encounter you live through is an encounter that gets you power, in experience and treasure. Go as nonconventional as you can. Deal with invisibility bags-of-flour style. Deal with BS opponents with BS strategies; somebody mentioned lava portals already, which is one of my standard tactics, b ut there are lots of ways you can screw with people via environmental effects. Search for them. 4) Seriously, talk to your DM. He's throwing optimized encounters at you but controlling material you can use tightly? Straight-up DM BS. It's like making you play NPC classes in a world full of PC class enemies. Tell him Warriors versus Fighters isn't fun anymore. 5) Everything your DM loves, make a consolidated effort to destroy it. Is he really big on his enemy god religion thing? Seriously PUSH to kill followers, wreck temples, spread rumors and ruin it. Does he like his encounter set-ups? Use escape tactics and try constantly to engage on your terms. Teleport and long-range spells are cool. If there's an aspect of his campaign you know he enjoys, attack it, take it away from him. In my experience, DMs who aren't willing to "Rocks fall, everyone dies" vicious players are really susceptible to this. Make the game an ugly competition instead of fun-for-him-not-for-you, and he'll get the message and ease up. If not, well, it can't get much worse. This might sound harsh, but sometimes you need to wake people up with alchemist's fire instead of cold water. If you're being put under too much pressure, LASH OUT and let him KNOW it's not fun anymore. For a good example of this in RL, it's what they tell you to do in date-rape situations.
Breetai 12-11-07, 01:13 PM	Kargush, I had this same problem with a DM years ago.... and I've found that DM's who DM like that are just no fun for me either. Probably best to let it go before you get too frustrated.
Kargush 12-13-07, 03:08 AM	Thanks for all the advice. I'll go for the divine ranks then, and if that doesn't work, talk to him. If that fails, I'm out of the game. And as for certain things not having class levels, well, it's his game and his world... *shrugs*