Knowledge Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Knowledge Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WizardlyFriend
07-02-05, 01:12 PM I am having some general troubles with knowledge checks, my DM, and me. I am the guy in the party who knows everything and does nothing. I have a wizard and plan on going lore master and am specialized in divination. My skills right now are almost all in knowledge and right now at level 4 I have a +16 to knowledge Arcana.
So we are in a dungeon and then we encounter a weird creature and I say to the DM (sicne I have every knowledge) I want to know what it is and it's strenghts, have I ever studied or heard of such a beast. OOG: what knowledge check do I make?

DM things: Well it's a magical beast so...
says: make me a knowledge Arcana
Me: Ah my specialty, I have a +16 on this check.
The other wizard in the group: Ill try too, I have a +11. *Rolls a 12* Yes! I got a 23.
I roll and get a natural 14, that's a 30.
DM: Well (to the other wizard) you know it's a roper, and (to me) you know it's a roper.

so im like wtf. I rolled a friggin' 30 and i know the things name? so naturally the whole party is like wtf he got a 30. so the classic DM vs. PCs conflict. DM boldly says well it's not so common of a creature and most people who encounter one don't return to tell so it's a pretty rare thing to know.
our argument of course is: I got a friggin' 30. so after some hastling We convince him that i didnt get a 30, but that i got a friggin' 30, jesus christ! so he tells me some weaknesses, not a lot of detail, but ill accept that it's rare. i DM a good amount and i dont know much about them. anyway i find out that these creatures are pretty resistant to magic and resistant to cold. i ask does that mean they are vulnerable to fire? he says you dont know, but you could say that they might be a little vulnerable.

anyway back to game and we bargain for our lives and leave with our tails between our legs. but hte point is this isn't the first time this has happened.

let me not forgot last week where i got a 33 on my knowledge arcana and only knew that the creature was callled a grick. those are weaker too. anyway i looke dthrough the PHB and found the following:

pg. 78: to find useful information about a creature is 10 + HD of the appropriate knowledge. every 5 is some extra useful info.

the grick would have been 12, the roper would have been 20. anyway im wondering if anyone knows of a better source, if it's in the core rulebooks, like the MM that's awesome, if not fine. but please don't make it too obscure. the most obscure i want is either or Dragon or Dungeon magazine. all 3.0 or 3.5 books will work.

we play again next friday, but response appreciated. i have a solution, but it doesnt seam that logical. i mean for example a great wyrm red dragon has 36 HD and therefore the check would be 46. granted by the time im close to powerful enough to face one i could make that check, the point is why is it so hight to find out probably that: they are vulnerable to cold and immune to fire? i mean a 3 HD wyrmling red dragon (DC 13) has the same properties. so i want to find a better system that isn't too obscure because im not DMing so the DM has to approve it and use it.

thanks,
-me
VirgilCaine
07-02-05, 02:19 PM 7 ranks + 4 Int bonus + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Skill Feat = 16. I hope you didn't take Skill Focus and the skill bonus feat.

As for the DM issue, point out the part in the PHB. He should hopefully improve the imformation.
WizardlyFriend
07-02-05, 02:25 PM 7 ranks + 4 Int bonus + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Skill Feat = 16. I hope you didn't take Skill Focus and the skill bonus feat.

As for the DM issue, point out the part in the PHB. He should hopefully improve the imformation.

7 ranks + 5 int bonus + 3 skill focus + 1 absent minded (traits in unearthed arcana)
skill focus in a knowledge is a prerequisite for loremaster which is the type of character i am playing.
Yruc
07-02-05, 06:50 PM From SRD

Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

I don't have my monsters book in front of me, but I think a Roper's HD is around 8 or 9.

If your DM said the Ropers are rare and relativly unknown, then if he used 30 as base to know any information, then 30 + monsters HD to find out anything useful, then you didn't make it. Still the HD short...
WizardlyFriend
07-02-05, 11:59 PM From SRD

I don't have my monsters book in front of me, but I think a Roper's HD is around 8 or 9.

If your DM said the Ropers are rare and relativly unknown, then if he used 30 as base to know any information, then 30 + monsters HD to find out anything useful, then you didn't make it. Still the HD short...

im pretty sure he just didn't know the PHB rule and hopefully knowing that 10+HD gives me info will suffice.
was_fired
07-03-05, 12:25 AM Even if your dealing with a rare monster 20 + HD is as high as you go. As a DM I like to think I'm fair about knowledge checks for the most part. Information usually comes out in this order:

DC: Name, major weakness / obvious immunity (such as cold or fire subtype), and best known attack special attack (dragons breath weapon, or a death attack, or something of that nature), and DR weakness and/or regen weakness

For each +5 extra you get some extra bit of information such as more of their attacks, resistances, and normally by DC + 10 you have all of their combat related spell-like abilities.

That said there are a few extremely rare cases where knowledge checks will fail. These are the cases of unique beings which are new to the character's realities, but this tends only to show up at really high levels or possibly as a final boss.
Gedrin
07-04-05, 04:52 AM The knowledge check system doesn't work. Sorry. Dragons are the obvious example. Other obvious examples are cases where you can extrapolate information easily such as a rare creature with obvious properties (like some elder elemental) or a unique creature that is famous (like Lord Soth).

Like most information checks, the scarcity of the information, for those who study such things, should be what's considered. A creature's "fame factor" is more important than it's HD or even scarcity. Some things are just so interesting that everyone remembers them and others just happen to be commonly used symbols. A pheonix is a good example of a high HD very rare creature that has a selection of noteable properties that has made it famous. On the other hand, a Formorian is an extraplanar bug person, which, while interesting isn't likely to be in any common heroic folklore, but it's got 1 HD.

Fame/scarcity of information is one factor, another is the kind of info you want. Most villagers know that there are dragons, and many know there are different kinds. But which dragon breathes what exactly isn't common knowledge for most folks (unless you're in Krynn). When you start looking into the inate abilities of each breed, and at what level of maturity those abilities are aquired, the information is likely uncommon and difficult to find, much less know off the top of your head.

I ususally set one modifier for fame of the subject:
0 : everyone knows of this
5 : the majority of peasants know
10: merchants and bartenders have heard about this
15: only the well informed or well traveled have heard of this
20: Only people who study this field have heard of this
25: Only people who study this exact thing have even heard of it

Then I set a modifier for the depth of information desired:
0 : Obvious from any observation
5 : Determinable from an hour of observation
10: Extended observation or hands on study needed
15: Requires expert study of multiple instances
20: Rarely observed, even by the experts
25: Only occurs under rare conditions and is difficult to observe

Add both to determine final DC.

So, I'd put the difficulty of knowing a 1200 year old Gold Dragon has the Foresight ability at 35. Most peasants, but not all, know there are specific kinds of dragons, but the variations of special abilities is something of which few commoners are aware (10). However, the occurance of Great Wyrm Gold Dragons is extraordinarily rare, and it's difficult for anyone to directly observe the use of divination magic (25).

For really obsucre info, like "how many times can a Death Slaad change shape one day?" You're talking about a rare variation of an of extra planar creature that actually only comes from an evolved form of a creature that only spawns from a parasitic infection of an arcane spell caster (25). Then you want to know how many times a day it can use an ability specifically designed for impersonation and covert actions, that someone had to survive (called a death slaad for a reason) to tell about...more than once(20+). DC 45.

By contrast, the very useful fact "orcs can see in the dark". Everyone knows about orcs (0). Anyone who's watched orcs in the dark, which is when they're usually out and about, knows they see just fine (0). It is common knowledge that orcs see just fine in the dark. To know orcish darkvision extends to 60 feet only requires either; extended observation of the orcs (10), or you can guess using the more commonly known fact that "most darkvision only goes out about yea so far" (5 if you have darkvision, 10 if you don't).

The above system is flexible and open to a lot of interpretation, for better or worse. If you've got a good DM, it can work. You may even find that miners (who are underground around metal veins) know a good bit about rust monsters. If you've got a bad DM....few people will know vampires drink blood.
nephtis
07-04-05, 09:37 AM Thanks Gedrin!

I didn't post that question but your table looks quite reasonable.
I'll keep it in mind to use it when I'm calculating difficulties the next time.

I'd add the knowledge about organisation (solitary, pair or in packs/groups) to the more easily available facts.
I guess it would be considered usefull to players to know if there's a mate to consider before charging an adversary...
WizardlyFriend
07-04-05, 12:13 PM The knowledge check system doesn't work. Sorry. Dragons are the obvious example. Other obvious examples are cases where you can extrapolate information easily such as a rare creature with obvious properties (like some elder elemental) or a unique creature that is famous (like Lord Soth).

Like most information checks, the scarcity of the information, for those who study such things, should be what's considered. A creature's "fame factor" is more important than it's HD or even scarcity. Some things are just so interesting that everyone remembers them and others just happen to be commonly used symbols. A pheonix is a good example of a high HD very rare creature that has a selection of noteable properties that has made it famous. On the other hand, a Formorian is an extraplanar bug person, which, while interesting isn't likely to be in any common heroic folklore, but it's got 1 HD.

Fame/scarcity of information is one factor, another is the kind of info you want. Most villagers know that there are dragons, and many know there are different kinds. But which dragon breathes what exactly isn't common knowledge for most folks (unless you're in Krynn). When you start looking into the inate abilities of each breed, and at what level of maturity those abilities are aquired, the information is likely uncommon and difficult to find, much less know off the top of your head.

I ususally set one modifier for fame of the subject:
0 : everyone knows of this
5 : the majority of peasants know
10: merchants and bartenders have heard about this
15: only the well informed or well traveled have heard of this
20: Only people who study this field have heard of this
25: Only people who study this exact thing have even heard of it

Then I set a modifier for the depth of information desired:
0 : Obvious from any observation
5 : Determinable from an hour of observation
10: Extended observation or hands on study needed
15: Requires expert study of multiple instances
20: Rarely observed, even by the experts
25: Only occurs under rare conditions and is difficult to observe

Add both to determine final DC.

So, I'd put the difficulty of knowing a 1200 year old Gold Dragon has the Foresight ability at 35. Most peasants, but not all, know there are specific kinds of dragons, but the variations of special abilities is something of which few commoners are aware (10). However, the occurance of Great Wyrm Gold Dragons is extraordinarily rare, and it's difficult for anyone to directly observe the use of divination magic (25).

For really obsucre info, like "how many times can a Death Slaad change shape one day?" You're talking about a rare variation of an of extra planar creature that actually only comes from an evolved form of a creature that only spawns from a parasitic infection of an arcane spell caster (25). Then you want to know how many times a day it can use an ability specifically designed for impersonation and covert actions, that someone had to survive (called a death slaad for a reason) to tell about...more than once(20+). DC 45.

By contrast, the very useful fact "orcs can see in the dark". Everyone knows about orcs (0). Anyone who's watched orcs in the dark, which is when they're usually out and about, knows they see just fine (0). It is common knowledge that orcs see just fine in the dark. To know orcish darkvision extends to 60 feet only requires either; extended observation of the orcs (10), or you can guess using the more commonly known fact that "most darkvision only goes out about yea so far" (5 if you have darkvision, 10 if you don't).

The above system is flexible and open to a lot of interpretation, for better or worse. If you've got a good DM, it can work. You may even find that miners (who are underground around metal veins) know a good bit about rust monsters. If you've got a bad DM....few people will know vampires drink blood.

looks good, if he doesnt use it for his, ill definitely incorporate that for mine. thanks!

not sure if he'll use it since, no offense, it isn't from a core book or even a third party book. and im not so sure id want him too since hes the type (exaggerated) who might think that the average person doesn't know about vampires. it would be nice if in the next edition of DnD each monster has a little table that told you the knowledge checks. or if each monster had some sort of Rep modifier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WizardlyFriend 07-02-05, 01:12 PM	I am having some general troubles with knowledge checks, my DM, and me. I am the guy in the party who knows everything and does nothing. I have a wizard and plan on going lore master and am specialized in divination. My skills right now are almost all in knowledge and right now at level 4 I have a +16 to knowledge Arcana. So we are in a dungeon and then we encounter a weird creature and I say to the DM (sicne I have every knowledge) I want to know what it is and it's strenghts, have I ever studied or heard of such a beast. OOG: what knowledge check do I make? DM things: Well it's a magical beast so... says: make me a knowledge Arcana Me: Ah my specialty, I have a +16 on this check. The other wizard in the group: Ill try too, I have a +11. Rolls a 12 Yes! I got a 23. I roll and get a natural 14, that's a 30. DM: Well (to the other wizard) you know it's a roper, and (to me) you know it's a roper. so im like wtf. I rolled a friggin' 30 and i know the things name? so naturally the whole party is like wtf he got a 30. so the classic DM vs. PCs conflict. DM boldly says well it's not so common of a creature and most people who encounter one don't return to tell so it's a pretty rare thing to know. our argument of course is: I got a friggin' 30. so after some hastling We convince him that i didnt get a 30, but that i got a friggin' 30, jesus christ! so he tells me some weaknesses, not a lot of detail, but ill accept that it's rare. i DM a good amount and i dont know much about them. anyway i find out that these creatures are pretty resistant to magic and resistant to cold. i ask does that mean they are vulnerable to fire? he says you dont know, but you could say that they might be a little vulnerable. anyway back to game and we bargain for our lives and leave with our tails between our legs. but hte point is this isn't the first time this has happened. let me not forgot last week where i got a 33 on my knowledge arcana and only knew that the creature was callled a grick. those are weaker too. anyway i looke dthrough the PHB and found the following: pg. 78: to find useful information about a creature is 10 + HD of the appropriate knowledge. every 5 is some extra useful info. the grick would have been 12, the roper would have been 20. anyway im wondering if anyone knows of a better source, if it's in the core rulebooks, like the MM that's awesome, if not fine. but please don't make it too obscure. the most obscure i want is either or Dragon or Dungeon magazine. all 3.0 or 3.5 books will work. we play again next friday, but response appreciated. i have a solution, but it doesnt seam that logical. i mean for example a great wyrm red dragon has 36 HD and therefore the check would be 46. granted by the time im close to powerful enough to face one i could make that check, the point is why is it so hight to find out probably that: they are vulnerable to cold and immune to fire? i mean a 3 HD wyrmling red dragon (DC 13) has the same properties. so i want to find a better system that isn't too obscure because im not DMing so the DM has to approve it and use it. thanks, -me
VirgilCaine 07-02-05, 02:19 PM	7 ranks + 4 Int bonus + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Skill Feat = 16. I hope you didn't take Skill Focus and the skill bonus feat. As for the DM issue, point out the part in the PHB. He should hopefully improve the imformation.
WizardlyFriend 07-02-05, 02:25 PM	7 ranks + 4 Int bonus + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Skill Feat = 16. I hope you didn't take Skill Focus and the skill bonus feat. As for the DM issue, point out the part in the PHB. He should hopefully improve the imformation. 7 ranks + 5 int bonus + 3 skill focus + 1 absent minded (traits in unearthed arcana) skill focus in a knowledge is a prerequisite for loremaster which is the type of character i am playing.
Yruc 07-02-05, 06:50 PM	From SRD Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions). In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. I don't have my monsters book in front of me, but I think a Roper's HD is around 8 or 9. If your DM said the Ropers are rare and relativly unknown, then if he used 30 as base to know any information, then 30 + monsters HD to find out anything useful, then you didn't make it. Still the HD short...
WizardlyFriend 07-02-05, 11:59 PM	From SRD I don't have my monsters book in front of me, but I think a Roper's HD is around 8 or 9. If your DM said the Ropers are rare and relativly unknown, then if he used 30 as base to know any information, then 30 + monsters HD to find out anything useful, then you didn't make it. Still the HD short... im pretty sure he just didn't know the PHB rule and hopefully knowing that 10+HD gives me info will suffice.
was_fired 07-03-05, 12:25 AM	Even if your dealing with a rare monster 20 + HD is as high as you go. As a DM I like to think I'm fair about knowledge checks for the most part. Information usually comes out in this order: DC: Name, major weakness / obvious immunity (such as cold or fire subtype), and best known attack special attack (dragons breath weapon, or a death attack, or something of that nature), and DR weakness and/or regen weakness For each +5 extra you get some extra bit of information such as more of their attacks, resistances, and normally by DC + 10 you have all of their combat related spell-like abilities. That said there are a few extremely rare cases where knowledge checks will fail. These are the cases of unique beings which are new to the character's realities, but this tends only to show up at really high levels or possibly as a final boss.
Gedrin 07-04-05, 04:52 AM	The knowledge check system doesn't work. Sorry. Dragons are the obvious example. Other obvious examples are cases where you can extrapolate information easily such as a rare creature with obvious properties (like some elder elemental) or a unique creature that is famous (like Lord Soth). Like most information checks, the scarcity of the information, for those who study such things, should be what's considered. A creature's "fame factor" is more important than it's HD or even scarcity. Some things are just so interesting that everyone remembers them and others just happen to be commonly used symbols. A pheonix is a good example of a high HD very rare creature that has a selection of noteable properties that has made it famous. On the other hand, a Formorian is an extraplanar bug person, which, while interesting isn't likely to be in any common heroic folklore, but it's got 1 HD. Fame/scarcity of information is one factor, another is the kind of info you want. Most villagers know that there are dragons, and many know there are different kinds. But which dragon breathes what exactly isn't common knowledge for most folks (unless you're in Krynn). When you start looking into the inate abilities of each breed, and at what level of maturity those abilities are aquired, the information is likely uncommon and difficult to find, much less know off the top of your head. I ususally set one modifier for fame of the subject: 0 : everyone knows of this 5 : the majority of peasants know 10: merchants and bartenders have heard about this 15: only the well informed or well traveled have heard of this 20: Only people who study this field have heard of this 25: Only people who study this exact thing have even heard of it Then I set a modifier for the depth of information desired: 0 : Obvious from any observation 5 : Determinable from an hour of observation 10: Extended observation or hands on study needed 15: Requires expert study of multiple instances 20: Rarely observed, even by the experts 25: Only occurs under rare conditions and is difficult to observe Add both to determine final DC. So, I'd put the difficulty of knowing a 1200 year old Gold Dragon has the Foresight ability at 35. Most peasants, but not all, know there are specific kinds of dragons, but the variations of special abilities is something of which few commoners are aware (10). However, the occurance of Great Wyrm Gold Dragons is extraordinarily rare, and it's difficult for anyone to directly observe the use of divination magic (25). For really obsucre info, like "how many times can a Death Slaad change shape one day?" You're talking about a rare variation of an of extra planar creature that actually only comes from an evolved form of a creature that only spawns from a parasitic infection of an arcane spell caster (25). Then you want to know how many times a day it can use an ability specifically designed for impersonation and covert actions, that someone had to survive (called a death slaad for a reason) to tell about...more than once(20+). DC 45. By contrast, the very useful fact "orcs can see in the dark". Everyone knows about orcs (0). Anyone who's watched orcs in the dark, which is when they're usually out and about, knows they see just fine (0). It is common knowledge that orcs see just fine in the dark. To know orcish darkvision extends to 60 feet only requires either; extended observation of the orcs (10), or you can guess using the more commonly known fact that "most darkvision only goes out about yea so far" (5 if you have darkvision, 10 if you don't). The above system is flexible and open to a lot of interpretation, for better or worse. If you've got a good DM, it can work. You may even find that miners (who are underground around metal veins) know a good bit about rust monsters. If you've got a bad DM....few people will know vampires drink blood.
nephtis 07-04-05, 09:37 AM	Thanks Gedrin! I didn't post that question but your table looks quite reasonable. I'll keep it in mind to use it when I'm calculating difficulties the next time. I'd add the knowledge about organisation (solitary, pair or in packs/groups) to the more easily available facts. I guess it would be considered usefull to players to know if there's a mate to consider before charging an adversary...
WizardlyFriend 07-04-05, 12:13 PM	The knowledge check system doesn't work. Sorry. Dragons are the obvious example. Other obvious examples are cases where you can extrapolate information easily such as a rare creature with obvious properties (like some elder elemental) or a unique creature that is famous (like Lord Soth). Like most information checks, the scarcity of the information, for those who study such things, should be what's considered. A creature's "fame factor" is more important than it's HD or even scarcity. Some things are just so interesting that everyone remembers them and others just happen to be commonly used symbols. A pheonix is a good example of a high HD very rare creature that has a selection of noteable properties that has made it famous. On the other hand, a Formorian is an extraplanar bug person, which, while interesting isn't likely to be in any common heroic folklore, but it's got 1 HD. Fame/scarcity of information is one factor, another is the kind of info you want. Most villagers know that there are dragons, and many know there are different kinds. But which dragon breathes what exactly isn't common knowledge for most folks (unless you're in Krynn). When you start looking into the inate abilities of each breed, and at what level of maturity those abilities are aquired, the information is likely uncommon and difficult to find, much less know off the top of your head. I ususally set one modifier for fame of the subject: 0 : everyone knows of this 5 : the majority of peasants know 10: merchants and bartenders have heard about this 15: only the well informed or well traveled have heard of this 20: Only people who study this field have heard of this 25: Only people who study this exact thing have even heard of it Then I set a modifier for the depth of information desired: 0 : Obvious from any observation 5 : Determinable from an hour of observation 10: Extended observation or hands on study needed 15: Requires expert study of multiple instances 20: Rarely observed, even by the experts 25: Only occurs under rare conditions and is difficult to observe Add both to determine final DC. So, I'd put the difficulty of knowing a 1200 year old Gold Dragon has the Foresight ability at 35. Most peasants, but not all, know there are specific kinds of dragons, but the variations of special abilities is something of which few commoners are aware (10). However, the occurance of Great Wyrm Gold Dragons is extraordinarily rare, and it's difficult for anyone to directly observe the use of divination magic (25). For really obsucre info, like "how many times can a Death Slaad change shape one day?" You're talking about a rare variation of an of extra planar creature that actually only comes from an evolved form of a creature that only spawns from a parasitic infection of an arcane spell caster (25). Then you want to know how many times a day it can use an ability specifically designed for impersonation and covert actions, that someone had to survive (called a death slaad for a reason) to tell about...more than once(20+). DC 45. By contrast, the very useful fact "orcs can see in the dark". Everyone knows about orcs (0). Anyone who's watched orcs in the dark, which is when they're usually out and about, knows they see just fine (0). It is common knowledge that orcs see just fine in the dark. To know orcish darkvision extends to 60 feet only requires either; extended observation of the orcs (10), or you can guess using the more commonly known fact that "most darkvision only goes out about yea so far" (5 if you have darkvision, 10 if you don't). The above system is flexible and open to a lot of interpretation, for better or worse. If you've got a good DM, it can work. You may even find that miners (who are underground around metal veins) know a good bit about rust monsters. If you've got a bad DM....few people will know vampires drink blood. looks good, if he doesnt use it for his, ill definitely incorporate that for mine. thanks! not sure if he'll use it since, no offense, it isn't from a core book or even a third party book. and im not so sure id want him too since hes the type (exaggerated) who might think that the average person doesn't know about vampires. it would be nice if in the next edition of DnD each monster has a little table that told you the knowledge checks. or if each monster had some sort of Rep modifier.