La +1 [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

La +1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bansheeman
01-31-06, 10:47 PM How exactly does level adjustment work? Thanks for all the help
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-31-06, 10:58 PM Level adjustment is used to approximate how capable a monstrous character is overall, compared to characters of the PHB races. The overall measurement is the character's ECL (Effective Character Level), and it's the sum of class levels + racial hitdice + level adjustment. It's also used to slow down the rate at which they gain levels.

A 1st level character with no racial HD and LA +1 is ECL 2, and considered roughly equivalent to a 2nd level character. He requires the same experience as a 2nd level character to increase his level. However, for spell effects based on character level (such as Sleep), he is still a 1st level character.

Hope that clears things up.
bansheeman
01-31-06, 11:22 PM SO until the La+1 hits level 3 he wont be treated any different .So what else does the Ecl count for. does it count for treasure or anything else. thanks for help
JabberWocky
01-31-06, 11:25 PM ECL stands for Effective Character Level. You use this whenever a character's level would come into play. Let's say you're playing a half-ogre with an LA+2, and have two levels of barbarian. Effectively you're a 4th level character when calculating XP, party XP, party treasure, and so on. However, you only have two Hit Dice, so spells that only affect creatures with less than 4 Hit Dice still hit you, while your LA-free party members are safe!
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-31-06, 11:26 PM ECL does count for starting wealth for PCs, but for monsters and such their treasure is a function of CR, which is not related to ECL.
TheChilliGod
01-31-06, 11:28 PM It does count for starting treasure and required xp to get to the next level.
It does not count for skill points, level-based feats, ability score increases, class abilities, hit points, saves & BAB.
I don't know whether or not it counts for anything that says "Character Level" or not, probably it does.

I like to think of LA as "empty levels."
JabberWocky
01-31-06, 11:28 PM I always thought ECL was substituted for everything that called for "character level," but then again I haven't played any monsters in 3.5 edition.
Milandros
02-01-06, 12:36 PM A lot of people get this wrong, paticularly those after superpowered characters who don't realise that there's a big down side to ECL adjusting templates.

I'll use a vampire template (ECL +7) as an example. For a PC, if the DM starts a game at level 12 (say), then you may have a level 5 fighter vampire. You have all the XP to be 12th level, you gain XP and levels normally. Another player may choose a 12th level cleric as an alternative. In general, non-templated characters are more powerful than templated ones, they are best used as roleplaying hooks.

Some DMs allow 1st level characters to take templates, usually only a LA +1 or +2. In these circumstances you start as ECL 2 for a +1 template, for example, but still with one class level and 0 XP like the other characters. In this case you need 1000 XP to pay for the template - it's as if you got it by taking out debt. The other PCs get their second class level at 1000 XP. When you get to 3000XP, you get your second class level and they get their third.
jpyrich
02-01-06, 01:37 PM I like to think of LA as "empty levels."
That's the best way to view them.

However, it's important to note that these "levels" do not give you additional Feats or Attribute increases. That's why there's a distinction between Character Level (CL) and Effective Character Level (ECL).

ECL is used to determine four things.

1) Experience need for next level.
2) Experience awarded for encounters.
3) Character Wealth.
4) When a character is considered an Epic character.

ECL = Class Levels + Level Adjustment + Racial Hit Dice (if more than one hit die)

Note: If you have a player character or cohort with more than one Racial Hit Die, you need to read up on how this affects all of the character stats (BAB, Saves, Skills, etc.). It's not simple and the rules are in both the DMG and MM.

Also, ECL has nothing to do with the Challenge Rating (CR) of an encounter. A monster with character levels has an increased CR based on the Class (MM 293-294).

JP
storm1402
02-04-06, 11:03 AM Whats nice about 3.5 is they break down the level adjustment by setting monsters ECL level by level. Example: Savage Species Medusa; U can start a medusa 1st level as u could start a normal pc, however all base saves skills, attributes etc are indicated under the 1st entry. When u gain enough XP to level up u use the 2nd entry just like you would for class levels, Savage Species took into account the total levels needed to have all racial ecl. English translation if you want to use monsterous races then just get savage species then you can play it level by level and theres no real issue except HD and saves. I hope it helps.
Louist
02-04-06, 11:18 AM Sorry guys, just need some clearification: If I were to go, say, Asimar for my first level character, I'd be using the starting wealth of a second level character?
Milandros
02-04-06, 12:42 PM Only if the DM has told the players to create 2nd level characters with 2nd level equipment. If the other PCs are 1st level, then the answer is probably no. The DM is "loaning" you the XP to take the template in the first place - you have to pay that back.

I'd ask your DM. If all players are rolling up level 2 PCs, then ask him whether or not you can start with L2 equipment.
Nom
02-05-06, 05:39 AM Sorry guys, just need some clearification: If I were to go, say, Asimar for my first level character, I'd be using the starting wealth of a second level character?No. If you take an Aasimar in a 1st level game (ie start at 0 XP), then you have a net total of 1 ECL. Considering that you have 1 "handicap" level (ie LA +1), your total character level / HD is 0. 0 HD = dead (permanently).

An Aasimar (or any other LA +1 character) is not legal until you have 1000 XP / ECL 2, at which point you can have 1 character level / HD + 1 "handicap" level for a total of 2. This character level will of course be a class level.

As mentioned above, some DMs will allow a LA +1 character in a 1st level game. The character gets normal starting wealth (since it's starting as a "1st level" character, even though it's not), but earns XP as a 2nd level character (which it is) and cannot gain a level until it hits ECL 3 (3000 XP).

Other DMs have more radical house rules, including Savage Species progressions, buying off LA, or just ignoring them alltogether.

Quick dictionary of terms:

Hit dice (HD): number of hit dice, whether from class levels or racial HD.
Character level: Hit dice
Class level: level in a particular class
Racial HD: hit dice derived from race, as opposed to class/es. Racial HD never count for multiclass XP penalties and cannot normally be increased in PCs, but are otherwise identical to class levels.
Level adjustment (LA): "handicap" levels to compensate for above-standard racial abilities. They only count for metagame power level calculations: XP required to level, XP awards, nominal wealth by level. In and of themselves, they provide no benefit to the PC: no feats or skills, no ability increases, no HD.
Effective Character Level (ECL): character level / HD plus LA. Use this rather than character level when dealing with stuff affected by LA.
storm1402
02-05-06, 12:25 PM I am the type DM to use the progressions from Savage Species book. I love to progress classes and races that way players can see how the race grows in power as it "ages" and then you dont have the normal problem of having pc's ask "how do they know how to control this power" or "how do they know this?" it is shown when the player Rp's it they have to make certain choices that effect the gaming session etc. Example: Medusa always risks turning her companions to stone unless she has certain feats discribed in the Savage species. But the player never would know that unless they role play it then they can watch the ability mature with the player going from 10 ft, to 30 and times per day etc. once those are established by the pc they then understand the mechanics of how things work and why monsters do what they do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bansheeman 01-31-06, 10:47 PM	How exactly does level adjustment work? Thanks for all the help
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-31-06, 10:58 PM	Level adjustment is used to approximate how capable a monstrous character is overall, compared to characters of the PHB races. The overall measurement is the character's ECL (Effective Character Level), and it's the sum of class levels + racial hitdice + level adjustment. It's also used to slow down the rate at which they gain levels. A 1st level character with no racial HD and LA +1 is ECL 2, and considered roughly equivalent to a 2nd level character. He requires the same experience as a 2nd level character to increase his level. However, for spell effects based on character level (such as Sleep), he is still a 1st level character. Hope that clears things up.
bansheeman 01-31-06, 11:22 PM	SO until the La+1 hits level 3 he wont be treated any different .So what else does the Ecl count for. does it count for treasure or anything else. thanks for help
JabberWocky 01-31-06, 11:25 PM	ECL stands for Effective Character Level. You use this whenever a character's level would come into play. Let's say you're playing a half-ogre with an LA+2, and have two levels of barbarian. Effectively you're a 4th level character when calculating XP, party XP, party treasure, and so on. However, you only have two Hit Dice, so spells that only affect creatures with less than 4 Hit Dice still hit you, while your LA-free party members are safe!
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-31-06, 11:26 PM	ECL does count for starting wealth for PCs, but for monsters and such their treasure is a function of CR, which is not related to ECL.
TheChilliGod 01-31-06, 11:28 PM	It does count for starting treasure and required xp to get to the next level. It does not count for skill points, level-based feats, ability score increases, class abilities, hit points, saves & BAB. I don't know whether or not it counts for anything that says "Character Level" or not, probably it does. I like to think of LA as "empty levels."
JabberWocky 01-31-06, 11:28 PM	I always thought ECL was substituted for everything that called for "character level," but then again I haven't played any monsters in 3.5 edition.
Milandros 02-01-06, 12:36 PM	A lot of people get this wrong, paticularly those after superpowered characters who don't realise that there's a big down side to ECL adjusting templates. I'll use a vampire template (ECL +7) as an example. For a PC, if the DM starts a game at level 12 (say), then you may have a level 5 fighter vampire. You have all the XP to be 12th level, you gain XP and levels normally. Another player may choose a 12th level cleric as an alternative. In general, non-templated characters are more powerful than templated ones, they are best used as roleplaying hooks. Some DMs allow 1st level characters to take templates, usually only a LA +1 or +2. In these circumstances you start as ECL 2 for a +1 template, for example, but still with one class level and 0 XP like the other characters. In this case you need 1000 XP to pay for the template - it's as if you got it by taking out debt. The other PCs get their second class level at 1000 XP. When you get to 3000XP, you get your second class level and they get their third.
jpyrich 02-01-06, 01:37 PM	I like to think of LA as "empty levels." That's the best way to view them. However, it's important to note that these "levels" do not give you additional Feats or Attribute increases. That's why there's a distinction between Character Level (CL) and Effective Character Level (ECL). ECL is used to determine four things. 1) Experience need for next level. 2) Experience awarded for encounters. 3) Character Wealth. 4) When a character is considered an Epic character. ECL = Class Levels + Level Adjustment + Racial Hit Dice (if more than one hit die) Note: If you have a player character or cohort with more than one Racial Hit Die, you need to read up on how this affects all of the character stats (BAB, Saves, Skills, etc.). It's not simple and the rules are in both the DMG and MM. Also, ECL has nothing to do with the Challenge Rating (CR) of an encounter. A monster with character levels has an increased CR based on the Class (MM 293-294). JP
storm1402 02-04-06, 11:03 AM	Whats nice about 3.5 is they break down the level adjustment by setting monsters ECL level by level. Example: Savage Species Medusa; U can start a medusa 1st level as u could start a normal pc, however all base saves skills, attributes etc are indicated under the 1st entry. When u gain enough XP to level up u use the 2nd entry just like you would for class levels, Savage Species took into account the total levels needed to have all racial ecl. English translation if you want to use monsterous races then just get savage species then you can play it level by level and theres no real issue except HD and saves. I hope it helps.
Louist 02-04-06, 11:18 AM	Sorry guys, just need some clearification: If I were to go, say, Asimar for my first level character, I'd be using the starting wealth of a second level character?
Milandros 02-04-06, 12:42 PM	Only if the DM has told the players to create 2nd level characters with 2nd level equipment. If the other PCs are 1st level, then the answer is probably no. The DM is "loaning" you the XP to take the template in the first place - you have to pay that back. I'd ask your DM. If all players are rolling up level 2 PCs, then ask him whether or not you can start with L2 equipment.
Nom 02-05-06, 05:39 AM	Sorry guys, just need some clearification: If I were to go, say, Asimar for my first level character, I'd be using the starting wealth of a second level character?No. If you take an Aasimar in a 1st level game (ie start at 0 XP), then you have a net total of 1 ECL. Considering that you have 1 "handicap" level (ie LA +1), your total character level / HD is 0. 0 HD = dead (permanently). An Aasimar (or any other LA +1 character) is not legal until you have 1000 XP / ECL 2, at which point you can have 1 character level / HD + 1 "handicap" level for a total of 2. This character level will of course be a class level. As mentioned above, some DMs will allow a LA +1 character in a 1st level game. The character gets normal starting wealth (since it's starting as a "1st level" character, even though it's not), but earns XP as a 2nd level character (which it is) and cannot gain a level until it hits ECL 3 (3000 XP). Other DMs have more radical house rules, including Savage Species progressions, buying off LA, or just ignoring them alltogether. Quick dictionary of terms: Hit dice (HD): number of hit dice, whether from class levels or racial HD. Character level: Hit dice Class level: level in a particular class Racial HD: hit dice derived from race, as opposed to class/es. Racial HD never count for multiclass XP penalties and cannot normally be increased in PCs, but are otherwise identical to class levels. Level adjustment (LA): "handicap" levels to compensate for above-standard racial abilities. They only count for metagame power level calculations: XP required to level, XP awards, nominal wealth by level. In and of themselves, they provide no benefit to the PC: no feats or skills, no ability increases, no HD. Effective Character Level (ECL): character level / HD plus LA. Use this rather than character level when dealing with stuff affected by LA.
storm1402 02-05-06, 12:25 PM	I am the type DM to use the progressions from Savage Species book. I love to progress classes and races that way players can see how the race grows in power as it "ages" and then you dont have the normal problem of having pc's ask "how do they know how to control this power" or "how do they know this?" it is shown when the player Rp's it they have to make certain choices that effect the gaming session etc. Example: Medusa always risks turning her companions to stone unless she has certain feats discribed in the Savage species. But the player never would know that unless they role play it then they can watch the ability mature with the player going from 10 ft, to 30 and times per day etc. once those are established by the pc they then understand the mechanics of how things work and why monsters do what they do.