LA at level 1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA at level 1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Worshiper_of_Moradin
08-20-07, 10:28 PM When you make a character that's a ECL do he start off at 0 exp? or does he start at the ECL exp?

Example: Level one monk with a LA or +2. starting exp 0 or 7000?
Tempest Stormwind
08-20-07, 11:30 PM When you make a character that's a ECL do he start off at 0 exp? or does he start at the ECL exp?

Example: Level one monk with a LA or +2. starting exp 0 or 7000?

Neither. He's ECL 3, so he starts at 3000 (and appropriate wealth for a 3rd level character). He needs to reach 6000 to reach level 2 in monk. That is, in the time it takes him to gain one level (+3000xp), everyone else will have gained two levels (3000xp = level 3 for LA+0). By the time he hits level 3 (4000 more XP), everyone else will be level 4 and only 3000 away from level 5 (as compared to you, who is now 15,000 xp away from level 5). This is further compounded by the fact that when XP is awarded, you count as your ECL, meaning you gain less XP from the same encounter than everyone else does -- so not only do you need more XP, the XP you gain comes slower. Eventually, you will match up with your allies.

This is clear if you carefully read how level adjustments work. And if your DM actually allows this (ask him if he'd allow a level 3 character to start alongside level 1s; that's what LA effectively means).

I'm willing to bet you're using githzerai as well. As sweet as it looks, not even it can save the monk. Unless you're using LA Buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). And even then, not so much; it just sweetens a poor deal a bit.
Worshiper_of_Moradin
08-21-07, 01:55 AM Ya your right my friend is playing a githzerai. We were about to get xp and then everyone was like. "Wait a minute.... how much xp do your need to level anyway?"

As for the 7000 thing.... my friend read off the wrong number and my computer messed up before I could change it -.-
Zarith
08-21-07, 02:36 PM Where is the rule that a +2 LA starts at 3000 xps as opposed to 0 xps found?
Tyler Do'Urden
08-21-07, 03:05 PM It's implicit. A 1st-level monk with a +2 level adjustment is a 3rd level character. 3rd-level characters have at least 3,000 xp.

Because he's a 3rd-level character, he should only be found in a party with other 3rd-level characters who also have 3,000 xp.
Zarith
08-21-07, 03:13 PM It's implicit. A 1st-level monk with a +2 level adjustment is a 3rd level character. 3rd-level characters have at least 3,000 xp.

Because he's a 3rd-level character, he should only be found in a party with other 3rd-level characters who also have 3,000 xp.

He's "effectively" a 3rd level character. I've seen the rule on starting wealth and feat advancement etc., but I've never seen it written anywhere that a +x LA starts with more XPs. Other then being implied, where is it stated?
Tempest Stormwind
08-21-07, 03:24 PM Where is the rule that a +2 LA starts at 3000 xps as opposed to 0 xps found?

In the DMG, MM, and SRD, wherever Level Adjustments are found. It *is* explicit, but I can't access the SRD from work to provide you with a quote.

Simply put, for all purposes relating to experience points (including starting XP) and starting character wealth, you are 2 levels higher than you actually are. For all other purposes, you are your actual character level.
Zarith
08-21-07, 03:37 PM From SRD

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.
Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.
Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.
If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).
Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

Experience for Monsters
A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, no level adjustment, and class levels uses the same tables as standard PC races when determining experience needed.
A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (class level + level adjustment).
A monster with more than one Hit Die, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its Hit Dice, class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (HD + level adjustment + class level).

I see XP to gain next level and starting wealth, no reference to starting xps, what am I missing?
Tyler Do'Urden
08-21-07, 04:02 PM Logic.
Zarith
08-21-07, 04:12 PM Logic.

Yeah, that's helpful.
So I guess it's not actually stated anywhere and you are just assuming. Got it.
I'm hoping for a reply from someone with actual knowlege of the rule, not opinion.
Tempest Stormwind
08-21-07, 04:26 PM Check the official FAQ on the wizards website. They explain it explicitly there. Tyler may act caustic and flippant instead of being straightforwardly helpful, but he knows his stuff and *is* actually helping.

Implicitly:
1) "Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level."
2) A 1st level Githzerai monk has an ECL of 3. To reach its next level it therefore uses 3 instead of 1.
3) To reach his next level, a 3rd level character needs (6000 - 3000 = ) 3000 XP.
4) Given: you can never spend XP such that you lose a level, and 1st-level characters, if level-drained, lose a point of Constitution instead (or die, depending on the attack).

Conclusion: There's no effective difference between a 0 XP ECL 3 character and a 3000 XP ECL 3 character -- both require 3000 XP to level up. It really won't matter in any way whatsoever whether you start him at 0 or 3000 -- he still needs 3000 more to hit level 2 (ECL 4).

For ease of calculation, though, start him at 3000. That way he just needs to look at the same table as everyone else instead of mentally converting every time.
Zarith
08-21-07, 04:59 PM Thanks for your help Tempest, I don't disagree with the rule, I simply wonder where the rule is stated. Every now and then the question has come up. I'm currently in a campaign where +1 LA is allowed and everyone started at 0. The 0 LA's went up at 1,000 and the +1 LA's went up at 3,000. That's the way the DM wanted to do it, and I'm not one to whine about these things, but I would like to have a page or book I could refer to that spells it out. Everything I have seen (Including the FAQ) does not explicitly state that an LA >0 starts with more XP's.
High Octane
08-22-07, 01:09 AM Logic.

Where have you been Tyler? I haven't seen any posts from you in like 2 months!

Anyway, I wouldn't bother saying logic. Logic means nothing to those who want rules.

This is D&D. There is no logic. Only rules.
Zarith
08-22-07, 08:07 AM Ya know, I suspected there was no point in asking where a simple ruling might be found.
There is no reason it is "logical" that a character that has a level adjustment starts with more xps. They often have the adjustment because of additional racial abilitities and bonuses. They didn't gain these abilities adventuring or by going up levels, so if they're starting out thier adventuring career, why should they start with more xps. It could be looked at as part of the penalty for taking a character with an LA.
To me, this matter is closed, no-one has been able to refer me to a book or a page that demonstrates your skewed sense of "logic". It is simply one of those thing in the game that is open to interpretation and DM preference.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-22-07, 05:13 PM There is no logic. Only rules.
There is no Dana, only Zuul.

After Egres got all lawyerish on me, I realized how much energy I was wasting on this stupid website. So I went out and got a life. I came back when I heard about 4e and I tried registering for that D&D Insider thing which claims I don't need to register because I already have a forum account, yet when I try to sign in, it keeps replacing my e-mail with 'guest.'

I think they want money first.

Then I got bored and started reading and posting and made the startling realization that people have been asking the same 101 questions since 3.5 came out. I thought about taking the obvious next step but then I remembered that I never start threads.
Zarith
08-22-07, 07:12 PM I tried registering for that D&D Insider thing which claims I don't need to register because I already have a forum account, yet when I try to sign in, it keeps replacing my e-mail with 'guest.'

They haven't ironed out the fine details yet, they said the ability to sign in individually is "coming soon", until then, everyone signs in as "guest".
Worshiper_of_Moradin
08-23-07, 11:10 PM Ok, so I get the xp part now. Thanks everyone, but somthing occured to me last night. Since is effectaly a 3rd level guy.... does that mean he would start off with two general feats? One the first level and then the other that a player gets at 3rd level.
Tempest Stormwind
08-24-07, 12:02 AM Ok, so I get the xp part now. Thanks everyone, but somthing occured to me last night. Since is effectaly a 3rd level guy.... does that mean he would start off with two general feats? One the first level and then the other that a player gets at 3rd level.

ONLY for purposes of XP is he 3rd level. FOR ALL OTHER PURPOSES, look at his actual hit dice, ignoring the level adjustment. He still has 1 hit die, his character level is 1, therefore only one feat (that of all 1st-level characters).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Worshiper_of_Moradin 08-20-07, 10:28 PM	When you make a character that's a ECL do he start off at 0 exp? or does he start at the ECL exp? Example: Level one monk with a LA or +2. starting exp 0 or 7000?
Tempest Stormwind 08-20-07, 11:30 PM	When you make a character that's a ECL do he start off at 0 exp? or does he start at the ECL exp? Example: Level one monk with a LA or +2. starting exp 0 or 7000? Neither. He's ECL 3, so he starts at 3000 (and appropriate wealth for a 3rd level character). He needs to reach 6000 to reach level 2 in monk. That is, in the time it takes him to gain one level (+3000xp), everyone else will have gained two levels (3000xp = level 3 for LA+0). By the time he hits level 3 (4000 more XP), everyone else will be level 4 and only 3000 away from level 5 (as compared to you, who is now 15,000 xp away from level 5). This is further compounded by the fact that when XP is awarded, you count as your ECL, meaning you gain less XP from the same encounter than everyone else does -- so not only do you need more XP, the XP you gain comes slower. Eventually, you will match up with your allies. This is clear if you carefully read how level adjustments work. And if your DM actually allows this (ask him if he'd allow a level 3 character to start alongside level 1s; that's what LA effectively means). I'm willing to bet you're using githzerai as well. As sweet as it looks, not even it can save the monk. Unless you're using LA Buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). And even then, not so much; it just sweetens a poor deal a bit.
Worshiper_of_Moradin 08-21-07, 01:55 AM	Ya your right my friend is playing a githzerai. We were about to get xp and then everyone was like. "Wait a minute.... how much xp do your need to level anyway?" As for the 7000 thing.... my friend read off the wrong number and my computer messed up before I could change it -.-
Zarith 08-21-07, 02:36 PM	Where is the rule that a +2 LA starts at 3000 xps as opposed to 0 xps found?
Tyler Do'Urden 08-21-07, 03:05 PM	It's implicit. A 1st-level monk with a +2 level adjustment is a 3rd level character. 3rd-level characters have at least 3,000 xp. Because he's a 3rd-level character, he should only be found in a party with other 3rd-level characters who also have 3,000 xp.
Zarith 08-21-07, 03:13 PM	It's implicit. A 1st-level monk with a +2 level adjustment is a 3rd level character. 3rd-level characters have at least 3,000 xp. Because he's a 3rd-level character, he should only be found in a party with other 3rd-level characters who also have 3,000 xp. He's "effectively" a 3rd level character. I've seen the rule on starting wealth and feat advancement etc., but I've never seen it written anywhere that a +x LA starts with more XPs. Other then being implied, where is it stated?
Tempest Stormwind 08-21-07, 03:24 PM	Where is the rule that a +2 LA starts at 3000 xps as opposed to 0 xps found? In the DMG, MM, and SRD, wherever Level Adjustments are found. It is explicit, but I can't access the SRD from work to provide you with a quote. Simply put, for all purposes relating to experience points (including starting XP) and starting character wealth, you are 2 levels higher than you actually are. For all other purposes, you are your actual character level.
Zarith 08-21-07, 03:37 PM	From SRD Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character. Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills. If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later). Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice. Experience for Monsters A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, no level adjustment, and class levels uses the same tables as standard PC races when determining experience needed. A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (class level + level adjustment). A monster with more than one Hit Die, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its Hit Dice, class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (HD + level adjustment + class level). I see XP to gain next level and starting wealth, no reference to starting xps, what am I missing?
Tyler Do'Urden 08-21-07, 04:02 PM	Logic.
Zarith 08-21-07, 04:12 PM	Logic. Yeah, that's helpful. So I guess it's not actually stated anywhere and you are just assuming. Got it. I'm hoping for a reply from someone with actual knowlege of the rule, not opinion.
Tempest Stormwind 08-21-07, 04:26 PM	Check the official FAQ on the wizards website. They explain it explicitly there. Tyler may act caustic and flippant instead of being straightforwardly helpful, but he knows his stuff and is actually helping. Implicitly: 1) "Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level." 2) A 1st level Githzerai monk has an ECL of 3. To reach its next level it therefore uses 3 instead of 1. 3) To reach his next level, a 3rd level character needs (6000 - 3000 = ) 3000 XP. 4) Given: you can never spend XP such that you lose a level, and 1st-level characters, if level-drained, lose a point of Constitution instead (or die, depending on the attack). Conclusion: There's no effective difference between a 0 XP ECL 3 character and a 3000 XP ECL 3 character -- both require 3000 XP to level up. It really won't matter in any way whatsoever whether you start him at 0 or 3000 -- he still needs 3000 more to hit level 2 (ECL 4). For ease of calculation, though, start him at 3000. That way he just needs to look at the same table as everyone else instead of mentally converting every time.
Zarith 08-21-07, 04:59 PM	Thanks for your help Tempest, I don't disagree with the rule, I simply wonder where the rule is stated. Every now and then the question has come up. I'm currently in a campaign where +1 LA is allowed and everyone started at 0. The 0 LA's went up at 1,000 and the +1 LA's went up at 3,000. That's the way the DM wanted to do it, and I'm not one to whine about these things, but I would like to have a page or book I could refer to that spells it out. Everything I have seen (Including the FAQ) does not explicitly state that an LA >0 starts with more XP's.
High Octane 08-22-07, 01:09 AM	Logic. Where have you been Tyler? I haven't seen any posts from you in like 2 months! Anyway, I wouldn't bother saying logic. Logic means nothing to those who want rules. This is D&D. There is no logic. Only rules.
Zarith 08-22-07, 08:07 AM	Ya know, I suspected there was no point in asking where a simple ruling might be found. There is no reason it is "logical" that a character that has a level adjustment starts with more xps. They often have the adjustment because of additional racial abilitities and bonuses. They didn't gain these abilities adventuring or by going up levels, so if they're starting out thier adventuring career, why should they start with more xps. It could be looked at as part of the penalty for taking a character with an LA. To me, this matter is closed, no-one has been able to refer me to a book or a page that demonstrates your skewed sense of "logic". It is simply one of those thing in the game that is open to interpretation and DM preference.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-22-07, 05:13 PM	There is no logic. Only rules. There is no Dana, only Zuul. After Egres got all lawyerish on me, I realized how much energy I was wasting on this stupid website. So I went out and got a life. I came back when I heard about 4e and I tried registering for that D&D Insider thing which claims I don't need to register because I already have a forum account, yet when I try to sign in, it keeps replacing my e-mail with 'guest.' I think they want money first. Then I got bored and started reading and posting and made the startling realization that people have been asking the same 101 questions since 3.5 came out. I thought about taking the obvious next step but then I remembered that I never start threads.
Zarith 08-22-07, 07:12 PM	I tried registering for that D&D Insider thing which claims I don't need to register because I already have a forum account, yet when I try to sign in, it keeps replacing my e-mail with 'guest.' They haven't ironed out the fine details yet, they said the ability to sign in individually is "coming soon", until then, everyone signs in as "guest".
Worshiper_of_Moradin 08-23-07, 11:10 PM	Ok, so I get the xp part now. Thanks everyone, but somthing occured to me last night. Since is effectaly a 3rd level guy.... does that mean he would start off with two general feats? One the first level and then the other that a player gets at 3rd level.
Tempest Stormwind 08-24-07, 12:02 AM	Ok, so I get the xp part now. Thanks everyone, but somthing occured to me last night. Since is effectaly a 3rd level guy.... does that mean he would start off with two general feats? One the first level and then the other that a player gets at 3rd level. ONLY for purposes of XP is he 3rd level. FOR ALL OTHER PURPOSES, look at his actual hit dice, ignoring the level adjustment. He still has 1 hit die, his character level is 1, therefore only one feat (that of all 1st-level characters).