Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ogre Mage 12-20-03, 05:20 PM	First off I do think that people should be allowed to play the kind of character they want unless it causes some massive disruption with the group. It's just that you would think people would want to have characters which were ... actually effective or something. We have a cleric in our party of neutral alignment. He's not much predisposed to healing anyone other than himself, which seems to be causing resentment among the other PCs. He took the feat MWP: Greatsword in spite of the fact he has STR 13 and CON 11. Our DM actually recommended the player redo his stats using 32 point buy, but he declined. This character can't fight, he doesn't heal well, isn't much of a cleric with WIS 14 and no good for social interactions with a CHA of 10. His feats were poorly chosen considing he doesn't have the stats to fight and his spell selection is very poor. I feel like this PC is dead weight in the party. What to do?
bolobaby 12-20-03, 06:01 PM	Man, tough call... We once had a player in our group that caused tension with the other players through his choice of characters and roleplaying. Eventually, we had to "vote him off the island", so-to-speak... he was asked to leave the group. It's NOT an eay thing to do. Your first step should be to roleplay the conflict. Before you begin, however, you should absolutely make it clear to the player in question that this is not a personal attack, but a inter-party conflict. Your *character* would react this way to the situation. Begin discussing with the party HIRING another cleric. Indicate that you guys are willing to give this hired NPC cleric an equal share of the treasure. When the PC cleric complains, let him know that the rest of the party doesn't feel he is doing a good job in that role... that he seems more interested in being a warrior than a cleric. Your group needs a dedicated cleric and if that means you'll have to hire one, so be it. Make it a majority vote. If the rest of the group votes for it and he doesn't, he can't say "well, he's not getting a share of MY treasure." Yes, he is. It's party treasure and if you don't like it you can find another party to travel with. Period. Most players won't like the idea of an NPC coming in and taking up choice magic items. Especially when you start giving the NPC cleric the nifty cleric items because he's the one that is doing a good job in that role. Heh.
rmilsop 12-20-03, 09:46 PM	We have a similar player in our group, who always (always) screws things up. Firstly because he's unable to seperate OOC knowledge from IC knowledge - if he's read the DM's notes and knows something, then he's going to act on that knowledge and leave the rest of us going "WTF?!" Secondly, because he's a barbarian. Its not his favourite class to play, its the only class he can actually play well. Currently a gnome cleric who doesn't know what god he worships (I asked him IC and OOC and he couldn't answer), refuses to heal anyone who "was rude to him before" (we're still trying to work that part out) and simply can't understand why we get annoyed at him. My suggestion is to do exactly what we've done - start behaving in exactly the same fashion as the player in question. Show him what's he's like to play with. We tried that and it actually had a temporary effect.
TheUnknownRanger 12-20-03, 10:43 PM	I play as a rogue named Aramil, and a good majority of the group hates me (my character). Since we're 2nd level I have the 2nd highest HP, but am the only one who can effextively fight( even then I'm dealin' sub. damage with my sap). The 2 wizards and the sorcerer are good for ranged attacks (Magic Missle), only to run like 5 year olds when in melee (and I've been diggin em' out for a while, only to no avail) I stole the wizards's spellbooks and sold it back to them for 20 gp each (I have +8 on Bluff checks, so even if things went badly they were powerless without their spellbooks. The fools didn't have Spell Mastery, which would have been useful, given their 18's in intelligence):smirk: The sorcerer was a twink, so I bashed him REPEATEDLY with the sap, dealing a total of 42 POINTS OF SUBDUAL DAMAGE , and then a convinced the wizards that the sorcerer would have betrayed them, and they promptly killed him. Since then the sorcerer's player made a cleric, but has not learned that twinking is wrong (guess he'll have to be taught another lesson the hard way:behold: ) So in the end, let me say this, twinking is bad, wizards make good lackeys, und Aramil ist sehr gut
bolobaby 12-20-03, 11:30 PM	Here's another question: I wonder why he doesn't want to rebuild his character using the 32 point buy offered? What is the average ability bonus total of the other members of the party? I recently joined group where everyone but me had ability bonuses of +13, +14, +14, +15, +16 - all *supposedly* rolled up using the standard method. I rolled a +7 - much more reasonable. But, compared to THEM, I'm pretty lame because they have such high stats. Are all of the other characters super-powerful in your group? Maybe this guy recognizes that and wants to teach you a "lesson" about how a mediocre character is still playable? A wis of 14 means that he won't be going too far as a cleric. Maximum cleric spell level is 4. That goes up with stat bumps every 4th level, but he'll have a hard time ever casting 9th level spells. Perhaps he plans to multiclass in the future and feels that his stats are just right for that?
Wizard 12-21-03, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by TheUnknownRanger So in the end, let me say this, twinking is bad, wizards make good lackeys, und Aramil ist sehr gut And your alignment is... I side with the cleric on his character-building choices. Not that I think they're any way to build a character effectively, but that's his business, not mine (or yours). The refusal-to-heal issue, however, needs work. Think about the real-life implications of this. If your friend had the ability to heal a certain amount of wounds/day with a touch at no cost to him, and then you got hurt (fighting to preserve [b]his[/i] life, remember), wouldn't this put a crimp on your working relationship? What's the unspoken deal between you guys, "I'll fight/cast nasty spells at enemies, because that's my specialty. You will...hoard your healing power for no reason?" He's just not playing a neutral alignment correctly. Good--helps others at expense of self. Neutral--helps others at little or no expense to self, and helps self at little or no expense to others. Evil---helps self at expense of others. Where do you think he falls, hmm?
channel_dunlap 12-21-03, 03:00 AM	it seems clerics are commonly played badly. We also had a cleric who refused to heal for the slightest of reasons, and often would do things like cast Circle of Doom (d8+1/CL in a 10-ft radius from you) during major fights, or silence ON the mage thinking it would save him from the other mage. Ugh, horrible. Anyways, what we started doing was just playing it in game. We stopped pretending our character's weren't mad, and when she refused to heal, or didn't something stupid, we told her. Often in the form of "What the F#*$ are you doing?!" or "You're kidding, right? That has to be the worst idea I've ever heard." and eventually she caught on (kinda) and shaped up (sorta). In the end though, she had to be taken out as she refused to heal the mage (who was missing an arm and at 6 HP), even though he had just saved her life. Perhaps that approach would work for you, just address it all in RP in game. If the character is metagaming, have the other charactes react accordingly, questions the character's judgment and choices. Characters are going to be just as angry as players when the cleric won't heal or fighter wont' take the front line, and theres no reason to prevent an RP confrontation. It also gives you the option to say it was in-game, and not meant to be taken personally by the player out of game.
DM Zoc 12-21-03, 03:46 AM	Who says that the cleric is a friend? One way to portray Neutrality is through selfishness (though selfishness is also affiliated with Chaotic). Other than that, Feats are often chosen to augment an image rather than gameplay. Imagine a guy with above average strength, wearing chain armor under white robes, and weilding a sword longer than he is. Now imagine the same guy brandishing a club. Did you even ask, in character, why this person has a greatsword? I once had a sorcerer who used a trident, because he came from a fishing village and it was more appropriate. I've also had a wizard with 14 intelligence, because he was raised by a hermit wizard and he wasn't about to be any other class. Actually, I am technically in a campaign right now where I have just finished out my class levels as a Half-dragon pixie; others are complaining that I'm not being effective (which is fair, because I have like 12 HP in a party of level 8 characters). If the situation is similar, then the fault is in vastly different play styles, in which case this person will probably get fed up and leave on his own. Lastly, you as a character have no place telling a man of god how he is to use his divine powers; if he is acting out of accordance with his deity, then that deity will revoke the abilities (notify the DM that this is a valid and under-used option).
channel_dunlap 12-21-03, 04:18 AM	Lastly, you as a character have no place telling a man of god how he is to use his divine powers; if he is acting out of accordance with his deity, then that deity will revoke the abilities (notify the DM that this is a valid and under-used option). Its not telling him how (s)he is to use their powers, but more how they need to use them if they intend to remain in good standing in the group. The cleric has a very definatly job in a group: Healing. I would expect the same reaction if anyone were to slack off in the group. If I suddenly refuse to cast spells, I'd expect the group to get angry with me, and hopefully say something to me about it. Thusly, I will do this with the cleric as well. The last thing I need to worry about is being at <10HP looking at a dragon, wondering if the cleric is in a good mood or not. [edit] also, I really could care less about the cleric's standing with their diety. Just as I'm sure the cleric could care less about my spellbook. Its about teamwork, that whole, "only as strong as your weakest link" type of thing.
DM Zoc 12-21-03, 04:37 AM	Yes, I see where you are coming from, but the nature of clerics is that they are basically "somebody with a powerful friend." While it's perfectly reasonable that you ask the cleric to give his/her/it/their all, you're not in a place to ask the deity for favors. If it was a deiti-less cleric, healer, or wizard with researched arcane healing, you'd be perfectly right. If the deity will tolerate the cleric's constant neglect of the party, then it's obvious that the deity doesn't want you to be healed. Another exception would be if you accepted this person into your party with the expectation that he/she/it/they would provide healing, in which case you should have words about that in-character, and would be perfectly justified in dropping the PC for a more agreeable NPC.
rmilsop 12-21-03, 09:24 PM	I killed our cleric. He's now a half-minotaur warrior. Everyone is much happier.
Darth K'Trava 12-22-03, 07:59 PM	Goes to show that I'm glad our group concentrates more on teamwork than bickering about who's not pulling their weight. The only time one of my clerics refused to heal someone was because she was a tad ill at having to stay out of one particular melee because two of the party got into a fight with one another (Charm spell on the fighter) and ran back, crying "HEAL ME!" at the same time. So, the next melee, she told the fighter that if he wanted healing he was gonna have to follow her as she wanted to kick some vampiric ass! And if the guy wants to carry a greatsword, fine. Let him. Nothing wrong with that. But he does need to step up and heal the party before they leave him high and dry when he's in a pickle.
jack haas 12-22-03, 08:32 PM	strangely, our party has a cleric that is not always the sharpest knife in the drawer. we are not nearly as vexed about it as some of the ppl in this thread seem to be because things turn out alright in the long run and the cleric is just funny as hell. some examples: -our party has decided to keep a certain npc unaware of some information we have about yet another npc who has business dealings with the first npc. we finish our negotiations, trade information with the crimelord/merchant when the cleric pipes up: "oh hey, we never told him about [the second npc whose identity was to be kept secret]" ......*slaps forehead* -our party is making its way through a small underground fort; we are encountering opposition on the way. having interrogated a prisoner, we know that the bbeg is at the bottom of the "elevator" and a few rooms away. we have just disabled the elevator so we have to climb down. the cleric, not a good climber, waits until last to come down the knotted rope (DC 5, mind you). before starting down the rope he hollers "ok, i'm coming down now! catch me if i fall!!" ........*slaps forehead* the best part is that he rolls a 2 on his d20, and falls 30' (no one caught him, sad to say *L*) -just this past weekend, our party is in the medieval version of the texas chainsaw massacre; we're getting our butts handed to us on platters, have all been disabled and disarmed and the casters are bound. i'm in the room with the cleric, hogtied and back to back with him. he manages to escape his bonds (?!?) and unties us. in the next rooms, the other party members are escaping. ye olde leatherface comes down the stairs and battle ensues.....we narrowly escape death--at one point the only character standing had 2hp and a wand of cure moderate wounds *L* after using the wand to zap the party back to full health and after having tried to melee for the entire battle the cleric says "wait a minute, i didn't cast any spells yesterday" (the encounter occurred in the middle of the night) "i have all my spells!!" ......*slaps forehead* he works for the dm. i swear it's true
ninjarabbit 12-22-03, 09:49 PM	Maybe you guys should treat your clerics better, don't expect them to be a walking band aid everytime you go a do something stupid. Maybe a cleric doesn't want to be too quick to give up one of their carefully prepared spells just because half the party charged group of trolls without a game plan. Sorry for the rant but somebody has to speak up for the clerics.
Darth K'Trava 12-22-03, 11:40 PM	Yeah. My epic cleric gets <aretha franklin mode on>R-E-S-P-E-C-T</aretha franklin mode> wherever she goes. (the same one mentioned in my previous post. Most clerics do, although a friend's cleric got a bit of "stupid question time" from my ranger about some of the doctrines of Tyr. But then said ranger had 0 ranks in Knowledge Religion.... ;)
Ogre Mage 12-23-03, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc If the deity will tolerate the cleric's constant neglect of the party, then it's obvious that the deity doesn't want you to be healed. Another exception would be if you accepted this person into your party with the expectation that he/she/it/they would provide healing, in which case you should have words about that in-character, and would be perfectly justified in dropping the PC for a more agreeable NPC. Yes and this is part of the problem. The deity of this cleric is also neutral and has no particular interest in healing. So I can't say that the cleric is at all going against his deity's will by being stingy/disinterested in healing -- there is no violation from a role-playing standpoint. However, it is upsetting to the other PCs. There is also nothing in the deity's doctrine that says the character should NOT heal. It does occur to me this cleric isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either. He is known to cast darkness around himself (even though he can't see in it) and run around in the middle of battle so "the enemies won't hit him." Again, I want to emphasize that the problem is not so much the character isn't healing as the character doesn't contribute much period. If he were whooping it up in combat it would be less of an issue. But he can't fight and usually doesn't (apparently the greatsword is mostly for show), doesn't heal much and doesn't have the CHA for social skills. Just seems like an all around $h!tty character.
Wizard 12-23-03, 03:37 AM	Neutral--helps others at little or no expense to self, and helps self at little or no expense to others. Again. Ask him why he isn't healing. What possible reason can he have?
DM Zoc 12-23-03, 04:48 AM	He might be one of those active neutrals, won't heal you because it would upset the balance of things.
A Man In Black 12-23-03, 07:06 AM	It really is time to tell him to contribute or leave. There's nothing wrong with playing a cleric who likes a punch-up, but a character not contributing to, you know, keeping everyone alive is only making the players' lives difficult. If he insists on an excuse to keep his character from contributing, the party really needs to lose his character, as a liability.
Derren S. 12-23-03, 07:40 AM	So kick him out because he dosn't play like you want him to? What next? Kick a fighter out because he makes a Rapier wielder with low strength instead of a spiked chain tripmonster because he dosn't contribute as much as he is theoretically able to? Or kick a wizard because he takes spells like knock even if you have a rogue instead of bull strength?
vassalich 12-23-03, 10:04 AM	Well, the problem is that while a finessing rapier fighter would actually make a decent contribution to the party, the cleric in qurstion does not. Her refuses to heal other party members, he wastes spells, and he doesn't seem to really even fight in melee. This is about actual contribution, not role-playing choices.
Raist27m 12-23-03, 10:20 AM	I've had a player do the same thing in my group. I had written a code of conduct so that there were certain rules a cleric of his deity wouldn't break. Included in those rules were two things that the player didn't like. 1- Do not desecrate the bodies of the slain. >>> And I discussed it with the player. Basically, don't take body parts from fallen enemies or corpses because that causes their spirit not to rest, thus creating undead. I also specified that it was intended for intelligent creatures. Not a dog, wolf, or mountain lion, but dragons, Wargs, and trolls. Not long after that, he ran around wearing a pelt from a warg, and snagged teeth from a dragon. Then, told me I was picking on him because I took his spells away at one point. 2- Heal others as needed. >>>> Basically, the guy is supposed to heal if someone asks for it. All members of that church are supposed to. The player was mad because PCs weren't converting over to his deity, so he decided he wouldn't heal anyone who wasn't of the "faithful" in his opinion. Then, last game session, he got mad because I had the "pope" of his church point out that he needed to be following the tennets of Pelor. Basically, I found that it was a lack of maturity, and respect for his friends that caused the problems. I am supposed to start the game (now on pause for me to recharge my DM battery) back up at some point in the future. Because of this player, I'm seriously thinking I might say "to he** with it".
Ithilorien 12-23-03, 11:27 AM	I have to agree that explaining to the player that your characters find his character to be useless and annoying isthe best bet. When my group was having massive problems with a player's barbarian character (who basically never bothered, or let anyone else bother, with stealth, diplomacy, or common sense and just started attacking at every opportunity) we had an in-character intervention where we explained that the barbarian was a liability to the party, and better shape up or leave. Things improved.
Lady Mia 12-23-03, 12:02 PM	Wow you people are really hard on your clerics. Its a wonder you even have anyone willing to play one. Its NOT the duty of the Cleric to heal a party. Its helpfull if he does. But its NOT manditory. Thats the same as telling your Wizard that he HAS to cast group pumps on everyone and that its manditory. Remember the cleric may be saving his big spells for a fight and not want to waste them healing people. Its his choice NOT yours. If you want to have healing powers buy potions or wands and then YOU can heal the group. Still it seems odd that he doesn't contribute in ANY way. It may be some other reasons... I have 3 theories. Theory 1: I played a cleric once that never healed the group. Why? Because they treated me poorly to begin with. I was simply told to shut up when they were making party decisions. And they gave me last pick at treasures. Seniority was the reason they gave. I was new and wasn't going to be allowed to affect party dynamics. So I cast spells and fired at bad guys... but never once did I heal a PC. I made sure my own HP were healed after combat and let the others bleed. After a few of them died and I wasn't the only new person I tried to claim the right to have my own say again. They refused but still listened to the others who made new characters. So I started calling them on their bad roleplaying and became a thorn in the GMs side till he quit running and let someone who wasn't as partial take over. The moral of this story is simple... the reason your cleric isn't healing may be your own poor attitude. If your treating him unfairly EXPECT him to look out for only himself. Theory 2: Maybe he is a new player and isn't familiar with the system. He just wants to play but frequently makes mistakes. The solution here would be to offer him help. Just avoid telling him what to do. For example, after a session when he didn't do much, talk to him. Find out what he thought about the session. Share examples of when you ran a cleric. Sometimes listening to your stories of a cool cleric you played may inspire him. New players often look at the game with wonderment. And a story may be a good way to push him in the right direction without making it obvious. Remember you want to encourage new players. They will learn in their own time. Just have patience and only offer advice when they clearly want it. If you come off as too pushy you will scare the new player away. Theory 3: I have seen players out there who LIKE to just sit quietly during a game and contribute very little. They actually enjoy sitting on the sidelines and so they don't contribute much. But they seem to still love the game, and even though you worry about them, they are actually having fun. I had a player like this once. As a GM it drove me crazy trying to build subplots around this guy so he could enjoy himself... and he never once took any interest in the plots... after numerous session I finally gave up and asked him why he kept coming to my game if he wasn't having fun. He assured me that he was having a lot of fun and that he thoroughly enjoyed the game. I had learned that not everyone likes the spotlight. And just because a player doesn't contribute much doesn't mean he isn't having fun watching the others solve the quests with little help from him.
Rian Lightblade 12-23-03, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by bolobaby Man, tough call... We once had a player in our group that caused tension with the other players through his choice of characters and roleplaying. Eventually, we had to "vote him off the island", so-to-speak... he was asked to leave the group. It's NOT an eay thing to do. Your first step should be to roleplay the conflict. Before you begin, however, you should absolutely make it clear to the player in question that this is not a personal attack, but a inter-party conflict. Your *character* would react this way to the situation. Begin discussing with the party HIRING another cleric. Indicate that you guys are willing to give this hired NPC cleric an equal share of the treasure. When the PC cleric complains, let him know that the rest of the party doesn't feel he is doing a good job in that role... that he seems more interested in being a warrior than a cleric. Your group needs a dedicated cleric and if that means you'll have to hire one, so be it. Make it a majority vote. If the rest of the group votes for it and he doesn't, he can't say "well, he's not getting a share of MY treasure." Yes, he is. It's party treasure and if you don't like it you can find another party to travel with. Period. Most players won't like the idea of an NPC coming in and taking up choice magic items. Especially when you start giving the NPC cleric the nifty cleric items because he's the one that is doing a good job in that role. Heh. I'll just quote this post as it was basically what I was going to say. RP the problem first, but if the player doesn't get the hint. You and the group should then tell the player the problems you're having with his playing style if he refuses to alter it or says that he can't then ask him to leave.
ninjarabbit 12-23-03, 04:39 PM	Yeah guys be nice to your clerics, let them have input on group decisions and a fair share of treasue and xp (just because he didn't kill anybody doesn't mean he didn't contribute), buy some of your own curing devices to take some of the burden off him, and realize that everytime he casts a curing spell, you could be losing out on a dispel magic or other useful spell later on.
Ithilorien 12-23-03, 04:44 PM	I don't recall if anyone else has suggested it, but you might wish to consider retiring your own character and then playing a cleric yourself. That way you can guarantee heals for everyone and perhaps show him how to be a good cleric by example.
Salla 12-23-03, 07:44 PM	Another option is to find out *why* this Cleric is acting like he is. The player may be trying to play a character 'against type', since typical Clerics are healers and charismatic/diplomat types. Another possibility is that he's having more fun annoying the rest of you than he would if he were playing the game for real, and is deriving his enjoyment from being a jerk. I would actually suggest going OOC and asking him what the deal is, player to player. But, from an IC perspective, if a party's going to survive, it means teamwork, and if someone is being a problem rather than a help, it may be time for an IC heave-ho. It's true, a Cleric is more than a walking bandage for the party ... but every party member needs to contribute *SOMETHING*, or else they're just using resources that could be better spent on the party's goals. So ... is he contributing something, albeit perhaps not what one traditionally expects of clerics, or is he just taking up space? Random Afterthought: This is a game, and yes we all like to have fun with it, and we all have different definitions of fun, even within the broad topic of Gaming. Some prefer action-packed swordfests, some prefer puzzles, some just character-acting, and it's all cool ... until someone starts making the game not-fun for the other people. Then something needs to be done.
channel_dunlap 12-24-03, 11:59 AM	played a cleric once that never healed the group. Why? Because they treated me poorly to begin with. I was simply told to shut up when they were making party decisions. And they gave me last pick at treasures This was not the case at all. The cleric was welcomed into the group from day 1, given equal weight in MI selection and actually made most of the group decisions on her own (nobody else really cared, and she did, so we let her do it). it was just her own PMS that caused her to refuse healing. Not to mention horrible spell selection (I cast silence on... the mage!), Maybe he is a new player and isn't familiar with the system. He just wants to play but frequently makes mistakes. Our player had played, in our group, for well over a year, getting instructions and "constructive critisism" from us the entire time. I have seen players out there who LIKE to just sit quietly during a game and contribute very little. They actually enjoy sitting on the sidelines and so they don't contribute much. If causing group conflicts (often fighting with PCs, sometimes out right attacking them) and doing things to get the group into trouble (I punch the town guard in the face with my spiked gauntlet. over and over. Until he's dying.) is considered contributing very little, then you just pegged out cleric. I don't think thats the case though. Clerics are healers. If we wanted someone to do melee, we'd have picked up a fighter. someone to cast non-healing spells, a mage. Clerics HEAL, that is why our group picked one up (if thats not the reason you want a cleric... well... then you're dumb. :) ). The cleric refused to heal, refused to be a helpful member of the party, refused to even try to get along with the rest of the group, or do anything but cause problems.
Shadow of the Masked Lord 12-24-03, 02:31 PM	Speaking as a cleric of chaotic neutralness I can think of a few reasons which this guy might not be healing: -You're mean to him and he resents that -You gave him the last pick in the treasure -He just doesn't feel like it -He secretly wants your PC dead I've used all the excuses above, the last one for a gnome illusionist with abilities quite like your own dear cleric and the girl who played her asked me to, so don't yell at me. As for this person's attitude...well I'd've kicked him out a while ago. Or threatend him. Get the DM to do something about him. At the very least run him out.
The Stray 12-24-03, 04:08 PM	Actually...the more I hear about this dead-weight cleric, the more I'm beginning to think we have a classic "Chaotic Stupid" person here. Originally posted by channel_dunlap: Our player had played, in our group, for well over a year, getting instructions and "constructive critisism" from us the entire time. If causing group conflicts (often fighting with PCs, sometimes out right attacking them) and doing things to get the group into trouble (I punch the town guard in the face with my spiked gauntlet. over and over. Until he's dying.) is considered contributing very little, then you just pegged out cleric. I don't think thats the case though. Chaotic Stupid people are the kind of people who do really stupid things in-character, either because A) They think it's funny or because B) They just don't get it. They rarely seem to understand just how disruptive to good gaming they're actually being. It's a problem with the player, not the character, and I suspect your group will have to deal with this OOC before to long. My advice, though, is to deal with the character In Game the same way a party of adventurers would probably deal with a similer situation: fire them. Adventuring requires teamwork, and anyone who does not pull their weight is a liability. It doesn't have to be healing (clerics, if made and used properly, can actually be one of the best all-around classes in the game). But if the character isn't doing anything useful, then why do the others bother to keep him around? I've had to deal with Chaotic Stupid people before. It's never fun. But the player needs to be made aware that he's dragging the rest of the party down and that he should either try to be more useful or find aonther gaming group.
wdarkk 12-24-03, 04:50 PM	Have the Mage research a ranged-touch ray attack spell that has no verbal component and does plenty of damage. Oh, and a sign that says "Traitor!" I'm sure you know what to do with those :D
Dragoninawheelchair 12-25-03, 07:43 PM	Playing in a merc campaign most of the party was playing chaotic good/nuetral characters and one LN fighter. We all got along great, sure the rogue was a little shady but we look past the couple gold he stole now and again, but a LE necromancer, that didn't fly. Our party killed him after we found out he was trying to become the avatar of vecna. "No guys really, the eye patch is a fashion statement."
Galahad the Pure 12-26-03, 02:49 PM	I have this one guy who is constantly using concepts that are moronic. It's not really that he's ineffective, it's just that his concepts tend to detract from the authenticity of the game. It all started the first (and only time) I DMed a game with him when he decided to become a cleric-hunter of the dead. The hunter of the dead is one of those classes that, in the right situation, it's a game-breaker, but in any other situation, it's completely gimpy. The player kept on reminding me how he was going to be able to kill the final BBEG lich permanently, and it got really frustrating to the point that I asked him blatantly, "Why do you want to ruin my game?" That was the last time I ran a game with him, but I still play along side him (for reasons I don't care to get into). The very next time he played, he was a halfling rogue-assassin specializing in thrown weapons. I was OK with this until he decided to become a wight, at which point I thought, "Hmm yeah. I'm adventuring with the undead...why?" His next great character concept was the bard-dragon disciple who weilded a mercurial greatsword. (A pre-errata S&F 2d8 one at that!) Now, I find myself adventuring along side this fire-breathing reptilian creature weilding a weapon which technically shouldn't exist. "It's OK," I tell myself, "I can just ignore him." After the DM killed that character, his next masterpiece was a permanently enlarged dwarf weilding a spiked chain. At this point, the DM was courteous enough to accomodate all the dungeons with 10-ft wide hallways so the dwarf could investigate them with us. I swear, as soon as a character becomes 10 feet tall, he stops being a dwarf. This was in addition to the usual logical inconsistencies about the spiked chain. Thankfully, this character was silly enough to wear (and continue wearing) an intelligent CE cloak which brought about his demise. Now he's a monk. A human monk. Normally I would gripe that a martial artist has no place in a medieval fantasy setting (can you tell yet that I am strongly biased in favor of traditional character concepts? ;) ), but considering the bizarre things that the player would do otherwise, I'm happy he's something that's only slightly divergent from the campaign world.
Faeryl Zauvirr 12-27-03, 01:39 AM	Originally posted by jack haas after having tried to melee for the entire battle the cleric says "wait a minute, i didn't cast any spells yesterday" (the encounter occurred in the middle of the night) "i have all my spells!!" ......*slaps forehead* F*ck being nice, just drop that guy like a bag of potatos. I don't support choatic stupid alignments, but, consistantly bash him with a sap, just like The Unknown Ranger did to his sorcerer.
Jhulae 12-29-03, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by channel_dunlap Clerics are healers. If we wanted someone to do melee, we'd have picked up a fighter. someone to cast non-healing spells, a mage. Clerics HEAL, that is why our group picked one up (if thats not the reason you want a cleric... well... then you're dumb. :) ). Um.. No they're not. If that were the case, cleric spell lists would only have 1-2 spells per spell level, all healing and/or raising the dead. Obviously, that is not the case. Clerics are the representitives of their dieties. To assume that any cleric at any time has to give you healing is just assinine. As an aside, bards get a full range of healing spells too. I don't see anyone saying 'Bards are healers'. Just like with clerics, they can heal, but that doesn't mean they have to. I think someone needs to grow up on their ideas of what classes have to do. As an aside, I don't think the cleric being quoted has a very good player. IMHO, that cleric should be dropped from the group.
Geethree 12-29-03, 10:18 PM	My thoughts on troublesome players (in general): Keep in mind, I will use "character" and "player" very specifically. "Character" refers to the in-game character and the character's motivations, NOT the real-life player. Player refers to the real-life player. -If a character is not contributing to the group, try and figure out why. As has been said here, in the example of the Cleric, they aren't "walking band-aids" (kudos to whoever said that, great term). They are serving a particular deity and how they serve that deity is their choice. If they have a perfectly valid reason for not healing you guys, then there's nothing to be done. However, if they have a stupid reason ("you were rude to me!"), they're not roleplaying well. They are using the powers of their god, and a real cleric would never allow fickle circumstances like "mean people" to interrupt their god's work. Character motivations should be dealt with first in-game. If the motivations are flawed or are being poorly roleplayed by the player, just directly talk about it OOC. -If a player is purposefully not contributing to the party for poor reasons (just being a jerk, for example, or resentful over real-life issues), talk about it OOC. Chances are the in-game party is under no obligation to keep that character around. You should just lay down the law. Shape up or ship out. This is just a game, but the players want to have fun. If you aren't having fun, something is wrong. Deal with it right away. -Characters stick together for a reason. Party members should never come along on dangerous adventures "just because". If a particular character gets to the point where he or she has no reason to be in the party, he or she should leave. It's as simple as that. Roll up a new character, or perhaps the player should just sit this campaign out. -Power-gamers and other annoying characters should be dealt with OOC. Chances are that the player has what they consider legitimate reasons to roleplay a powergamer, so dealing with this IC is probably not going to yield any results. Flat out tell them to stop. There may not be anything technically wrong with how they're acting, but if they are causing the other players to not have fun, then it needs to stop. -Apathetic players are a whole different thing. This is probably the least specific problem because players can lose interest in a game for many reasons. I'd say primarily a player loses interest because they're not contributing to the group. This might not be their fault, either. Perhaps they created a character not suited for the adventure (a fast-talking rogue who specializes in diplomacy in a purely hack and slash game, for example). Perhaps they feel overshadowed by other, more powerful characters (this is probably the fault of the DM, who needs to make sure the characters have equal chances to shine). Any way you look at it, though, this is probably the easiest thing to fix. Maybe they just don't care for the adventure and should leave. This isn't bad, it's just a fact. Different players enjoy different things. Maybe they're tired of being left behind and not getting really neat magic items. This is the fault of the DM. As I said, maybe their character is not suited for the adventure. Well, just roll up a new one! All in all, my main point is this: all of these problems have common-sense solutions. If the game isn't fun for every participant, you change things around until it is. If this means kicking out some players, then so be it. Just, don't make this a show. In some cases it's perfectly fine to be booted out. It's not personal, it's just a matter of fact.
Andvaranaut 12-29-03, 10:21 PM	A few things: First, my gaming group has a "hopeless character" rule, which basically says that if one person rolls/creates a character with NO POSITIVE MODIFIERS to any stat (and in some cases, enough negative modifiers to effectively cancel out any positive modifiers) then one of the following two things occur: 1) The entire group creates "hopeless characters," and the DM tweaks the campaign slightly to accomodiate such (ex: careful item placement, selective item drops, etc.). 2) The "hopeless" character starts out with a nifty magic item or two that the rest of the group gets to drool over. Ultimately, it comes down to wether or not the players are up for an actual challenge or not... And secondly, oddball characters can sometimes be a party's only saving grace. Of the few characters I've had that have actually survived a full campaign, the most brutally effective, easily memorable, and downright funny-peculiar character was one whose inspiration came out of left field...deep out of left field... Anyhow, here's the set-up: Human Female Cleric 16/Conemplative 1 True Neutral No diety Channels negative energy Chose War and Destruction domains, Celerity as prestige domain (A favorite saying being, "Swiftly do the dogs of war bring about change," while her motto being, "Do a little harm first, just to get their attention.") Chose Greataxe as her proficiency/focus from War domain At level 4, changed alignments to Neutral Good (Choosing to emphasize how change - no matter how it is brought about - can lead to better things) Keep in mind page 32 from the PHB [3e] - "...depending on wether the cleric is more proficient at wielding positive or negative energy. Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed... Feats are as follows at level 17: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greataxe) [Domain], Weapon Focus (Greataxe) [Domain], Improved Initiative, Versatile [Bluff & Sense Motive], Quick Draw, Throw Anything, Improvise Weapon, Improved Critical, Close-Quarters Fighting Just run-of-the-mill spell-wise, but utterly viscious in combat...then when she added a few buffs to herself and the party's tank... :angel: Sure, the other spellcasters felt a little left out of all the action, and there was the occasional "I wanna get healed, now!" whine, but she (according to the DM) was the MVC of the campaign! Though I digress, I DO have a point to make: if you're being plagued by such a player/character, perhaps the best thing to do is flat out ask them, "Why?" Don't accept, "Because I want to," as an answer - make them actually verbalize WHY they have been making such decisions...and you might find they may have a few damn good reasons to play the oddball character... ...and as far as "Chaotic Stupid" people go...I've always called it "manic-stupid syndrome" and occasionally suffer from it myself, so, maybe...umm...yeah. Think I'll leave that one alone...