Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 01-30-05, 01:10 AM	Here's my problem: I'm playing a Wizard (Illusion specialization), the only arcane spellcaster in a party of 8 characters. We are all 3rd level. Today, we defeated a Succubus and her four Troll skeletons--with little trouble (she even managed to summon a Vrock--the DM had it disappear after we killed her, probably so it wouldn't kill US). However, my Wizard was nearly useless. Obviously, the DM has adjusted the CR of the monsters we fight upwards, by quite a bit. I think we're being treated as a 5th level party, or even higher. That makes sense to me--but the problem is that those higher-CR creatures have very high saves. For example--I looked at it later--the Succubus had saves of +6, +6, +7, the Vrock +14, +9, +10. The Troll skeletons had lower saves; but being undead, I couldn't target them with most of my spells (I resorted to tanglefoot bags and very ineffective crossbow bolts). I was lucky enough to roll an 18 to put in Intelligence; but even so, the saves versus my spells don't have DCs high enough to even make them effective. My character tends to use a lot of spells you have to save against, especially Illusion and Conjuration schools--for example, Grease on people's weapons; or Color Spray to disable/stun them... Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and the various Image spells... et cetera. Problem is, with opponents so high above the CR that a level 3 character is designed to deal with, the chance of having one of those opponents *not* save against it isn't very good. With so many party members, I have to target area spells in the first round or so--and a Wizard can only cast so many spells a day. I'm in need of advice... how do I increase my effectivity against significantly higher-CR opponents? I'm not necessarily talking about doing damage--the others do that just fine, as evidenced by the fact that we have no real difficulty with those high-CR opponents--but just being *useful*. The usual Wizard has to deal with these while fighting a big battle... I have to deal with them every encounter! Help?
HomebrewedMonster 01-30-05, 01:18 AM	With the majority of image spells you need interaction to get a save, so the only way a succubus would know if the red dragon that just appeared is a silent image, is if she made her spellcraft check. If you cast an silent image until the creature goes up to attack it or cast a spell at it, it doesn't get a save. This is at least how I've come to understand image spells.
Wizard 01-30-05, 01:32 AM	One thing I've always found useful are touch spells, whether that be ranged touch or melee touch. Very few of them grant a save, and you get to bypass whatever ridiculous natural armor the monster of the moment has.
Soel Griffin 01-30-05, 06:38 AM	Open-minded DM's are helpful when dealing with Illusions and their effects. If played correctly, there should actually be few times at all that a save is involved. Of course, your problems with a low DC result from the large number of your party, so I would suggest you ask your DM to make a special exception for you and house-rule your saving throw DC to be 1/2 your caster level, as opposed to just the spell level (someone posted this on the boards recently, and it sounds much better, and not unbalanced at all.) This might help some, and also keep your lower level spells useful for you later in the campaign.
krichaiushii 01-30-05, 09:02 AM	As you increase in level, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus [School of your choice], and Greater Spell Focus [School of your choice] can go a long way in increasing your save DCs. IIRC, there are some PrCs that have increased DCs for certain schools as part of their abilities gained. Hopefully, your DM realizes that the party will be just as, if not more, challenged by a swarm of lesser guys as they will be by fewer tougher guys. During those swarm attacks, you should shine.
bave 01-30-05, 10:06 AM	Yes, you can spend two of your precious feats for +2 on DC's for one school. No thanks, why not? No matter what the case monsters will more than likely have drastically higher saves than you can produce short of going full munchkin and boosting DC's above all else. Bad plan IMO. What I would do, and do when playing a caster, is focus on a number of spells that either have no saves (rays for the most part) or spells which are only save for half so you can still do a good amount of damage then combine those spells with sudden maximize and lesser rods of metamagic. Very rarely would I use an instakill unless my character had good knowledge it might work, IE: a will save vs. a giant. When going against demons or devils, dont force the save, they have excellent saves for their level. Your other largest problem will be since you have a larger group your DM will be throwing higher than normal CR's at you to compensate, which means higher saves compared to YOUR level.
Callista 01-31-05, 06:48 AM	:bump:
ck2001wendt 01-31-05, 09:42 AM	Here's my problem: My character tends to use a lot of spells you have to save against, especially Illusion and Conjuration schools--for example, Grease on people's weapons; or Color Spray to disable/stun them... Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and the various Image spells... et cetera. No offense, Callista, but it might be time to change your tactics. You're an illusionist, and this makes the situation particularly hard on you. If you were not prepared for the way the DM was going to run the game, it might be worth it to speak with them about the problem. I would dump all of my spell slots not devoted to my bonus Illusion spell into schools where I can actually have an impact. See what you come up with and how you can build off those. I'd also be chomping at the bit to find non-combat encounters, where my spells will be most useful.
VerinBlod 01-31-05, 10:28 AM	I don't know if you do this, but buffing the other players might help. What are your prohibited schools? Makes it easier to come up with good tactics. And don't forget to summun monsters for flanking bonuses for the rogues, etc. Or use spells to divide and conquer or that alter the battlefield. Like the variant wall spells or web. Greetings, VerinBlod
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-31-05, 12:12 PM	We're also forgetting that wizards really suck at lower levels. They re-lie primarily on their spells, and when their spells slots are scarce, they are in the hurt locker. Just tough it out there callista, should you survive untill tenthish level or so, you aught to be able to bust a afew caps in whatever's but. And yaa form 1st to about 5th the wizard game is most survival. Any fight you walk away form at this point is a victory. Cheers
mbfu3k 01-31-05, 01:43 PM	You're an Illusionist, so you should make the most of your illusions. If there's one thing an illusionist needs to be good at, it's making people think he's more powerful than he actually is. Intimidation, bluff, and general subterfuge will serve an illusionist far better than flashy damage spells. The image spells are your friend. At low levels, Silent Image and Minor Image are best used to confuse, distract, and manipulate your enemies choice of action. Whether it's through battlefield controlling illusions, such as that of a wall of huge, sharp thorns glistening with poison, or merely the raw intimidation of "summoning" something nasty, your illusions should be ones that no enemy in their right mind would ever want to even attempt an interaction with. No interaction, of course, means no save. With decent Bluff or Intimidate checks, you could even convince the enemy that you're powerful enough to summon and control a Sphere of Annihilation, especially if they've just seen it destroy a few of the "skeletons" from that group over there (that you conviently "placed" while they were watching your sphere). (Note here that mindless undead are infact more susceptible to image illusions, as they cannot reason out the implausability of your illusions. They're going to be easily manipulated by simple wall illusions, and they will fall for the exact same tricks over and over again.) All in all, the key to a successful illusionist is creativity. You also must be a master of both playing to the enemy's exepectations and challenging their beliefs, when each is most appropriate and useful. Keep in mind that people often see exactly what they expect to see, but can be confused and afraid of what they didn't expect. There was a Dragon magazine issue that had quite a bit of information about illusions and how to use them effectively. You might want to check that out, too.
mbfu3k 01-31-05, 02:33 PM	(Note here that mindless undead are infact more susceptible to image illusions, as they cannot reason out the implausability of your illusions. They're going to be easily manipulated by simple wall illusions, and they will fall for the exact same tricks over and over again.) I just wanted to emphasize this a bit, since it's important. You mentioned that the encounter included four troll skeletons. You should've seen those mindless undead and said to the rest of the party, "I've got those, you guys all gang up on the succubus." As an illusionist, you should be better at dealing with them than even a cleric since you can, at the very least, keep every single one of them occupied for the entire duration of the fight with a single 1st level spell, no save. With a single Silent Image, you can occupy nearly any number of mindless undead. Simply make illusions of a ton of creatures surrounding them, nimbly evading all of their blows. Since the undead have an Int of --, the fact that the creatures are entirely silent and avoiding every single one of their hits will mean nothing to them. And because the illusions are always just out of reach, the skeletons will never get saves to see through them. Being mindless, the undead should by all rights continue attacking the illusions, completely ignoring the pitched battle going on only a short way away. If possible, you can then use your illusions to lead the undead to their destruction at the hands of whatever environmental threats are around. A large cliff or pit? A simple bit of illusory flooring and even the most conservative DM shouldn't be able to prevent them from following the illusions off the edge, one after the other, despite all their comrades having just fallen to their death at the same spot. Or you can lead them back down the hall to that last razor/fire/falling ceiling/whatever trap that you passed to dispose of them there. If there aren't any environmental hazards around to use to dispose of the undead, you can at least keep them occupied until the rest of the party is finished with the succubus. Then you can keep them separated so your group can gang up on them one at a time. And with all of the illusory creatures dancing in amid your groupmates, the chance of the undead actually attacking anyone from your party instead of the illusions is pretty small. Think of it as a souped-up Mirror Image for the entire party that never (or rarely) loses images.
Nonah 01-31-05, 06:35 PM	I just wanted to emphasize this a bit, since it's important. You mentioned that the encounter included four troll skeletons. You should've seen those mindless undead and said to the rest of the party, "I've got those, you guys all gang up on the succubus." As an illusionist, you should be better at dealing with them than even a cleric since you can, at the very least, keep every single one of them occupied for the entire duration of the fight with a single 1st level spell, no save. With a single Silent Image, you can occupy nearly any number of mindless undead. Simply make illusions of a ton of creatures surrounding them, nimbly evading all of their blows. Since the undead have an Int of --, the fact that the creatures are entirely silent and avoiding every single one of their hits will mean nothing to them. And because the illusions are always just out of reach, the skeletons will never get saves to see through them. Being mindless, the undead should by all rights continue attacking the illusions, completely ignoring the pitched battle going on only a short way away. If possible, you can then use your illusions to lead the undead to their destruction at the hands of whatever environmental threats are around. A large cliff or pit? A simple bit of illusory flooring and even the most conservative DM shouldn't be able to prevent them from following the illusions off the edge, one after the other, despite all their comrades having just fallen to their death at the same spot. Or you can lead them back down the hall to that last razor/fire/falling ceiling/whatever trap that you passed to dispose of them there. If there aren't any environmental hazards around to use to dispose of the undead, you can at least keep them occupied until the rest of the party is finished with the succubus. Then you can keep them separated so your group can gang up on them one at a time. And with all of the illusory creatures dancing in amid your groupmates, the chance of the undead actually attacking anyone from your party instead of the illusions is pretty small. Think of it as a souped-up Mirror Image for the entire party that never (or rarely) loses images. That is perhaps the best idea for the Image line of spells that I have ever seen. Thank you for giving me a new idea to torment my players with. "It's like a house of mirrors that moves!"
Nom 01-31-05, 10:18 PM	With a single Silent Image, you can occupy nearly any number of mindless undead. Simply make illusions of a ton of creatures surrounding them, nimbly evading all of their blows. Since the undead have an Int of --, the fact that the creatures are entirely silent and avoiding every single one of their hits will mean nothing to them.Without taking anything away from your post, why even bother with an illusion of creatures (or "a creature", actually, so you can only have 1)? silent image -> instant wall of stone. Leave the stupid things to mill around in their imaginary corral while the rest of your allies fight the real baddies. Beyond this, a +7 Will save isn't exactly unsurmountable at 3rd level. +3 Int, +2 spell level is +5, for a 35% chance to fail the save. Not wonderful, but not impossible either. It doesn't help that Outsiders have 3 good saves, so they don't have a weak save to exploit. It strikes me that part of your problem is that this particular encounter plays to your character's weaknesses. If you're typically going to be fighting high CR outsiders, you're going to have a problem. If this is but one of many, then conserve your spells until you find more appropriate opponents.
devinmdp 01-31-05, 10:26 PM	Um. A party of 3rd level people fighting a succubus and a vrock and trolls? That seems way more than a 5th level challenge. In fact, your party EPL is 5, but the encounter you describe (without counting the Vrock) is an EL 9!!! Adding in the vrock makes it an EL 11!! Your DM should not be throwing this level of encounter at you in the first place. Devin
mbfu3k 01-31-05, 10:44 PM	Without taking anything away from your post, why even bother with an illusion of creatures (or "a creature", actually, so you can only have 1)? silent image -> instant wall of stone. Leave the stupid things to mill around in their imaginary corral while the rest of your allies fight the real baddies. That would probably work. Though the undead might try to bash their way through the wall, which would negate the illusion. It depends on the DM. But if you make a ton of creatures, then you get the added benefits I mentioned in the rest of my post. And those benefits are quite significant. Of course, as you point out, the spell technically only creates "a creature, object, or force." However, I've never actually seen anyone play it that way. How I've seen it played is that you can create pretty much whatever you want in the area allowed by the spell. Otherwise, it often gets difficult to determine where to draw the line. (As an extreme example I saw someone mention once on these boards, does a creature's equipment count separately? Can you only create naked illusions?) In fact, most people (players and DM's) usually don't even enforce the distinction between figments and glamers (eg, they usually let Silent Image create "pits" on the floor, where technically that would be a glamer).
Soel Griffin 02-01-05, 02:33 AM	This illustrates my point earlier in this thread about having an open-minded dm when using illusions. Mbfu3k and Nom made excellent suggestions for lower level illusions. You just gotta be creative, and have a creative dm to play off of. I will add that I have always thought of undead as not "seeing" physically, but more of sensing living creatures, so in my mind, some illusions might not work against them, but that's just my thoughts, and is not supported by the rules as written.
clarkvalentine 02-01-05, 10:07 AM	You could consider asking your DM to use the rolled spellcasting variant rule from the DMG. Instead of your spells' DC being 10+Int+etc., it's 1d20+Int+etc.
argorond 02-01-05, 01:39 PM	Arent illusions mind-affecting spells and undeads are immuno to those.
Callista 02-01-05, 01:44 PM	Yes, exactly.. that's why I didn't attempt to use illusions against the undead.
mbfu3k 02-01-05, 01:52 PM	Arent illusions mind-affecting spells and undeads are immuno to those. No. Only [Pattern] and [Phantasm] illusions are mind-affecting. [Figment], [Glamer] and [Shadow] illusions are not.
Callista 02-01-05, 02:23 PM	Hmm, well, another day, another thing learned. How about those illusions, then--I've seen a lot of creative uses for them on this topic already; got any more?
Nom 02-01-05, 05:10 PM	Think ghost sound. Think any of the image spells. Think ambush. If you leave a peephole to see out of, even silent image makes a great substitute for invisibility for the entire party.
Kratch 02-01-05, 06:23 PM	Just for the record, if the succubus in the example was controlling the undead, all the illusions in the world wouldn't make a difference since she could tell them to attack "Target PC" and they would blindly follow that order, reguardless of how many pretend nasties were vying for it's attention
Nom 02-01-05, 09:10 PM	Just for the record, if the succubus in the example was controlling the undead, all the illusions in the world wouldn't make a difference since she could tell them to attack "Target PC" and they would blindly follow that order, reguardless of how many pretend nasties were vying for it's attentionThat would work for the monster example. It wouldn't work for the wall. And if she commanded them to "just run through the wall" or some such, it would be appropriate to check to see if they pick the right wall.
mbfu3k 02-01-05, 09:42 PM	Just for the record, if the succubus in the example was controlling the undead, all the illusions in the world wouldn't make a difference since she could tell them to attack "Target PC" and they would blindly follow that order, reguardless of how many pretend nasties were vying for it's attention Of course, that would require the succubus to have class levels, since they have no innate way of controlling undead. Of course, it begs the question of why the skeletons didn't attack the succubus in the first place...
Callista 02-02-05, 06:53 AM	I don't think my DM thought that far... and, no, she didn't have class levels. The troll skeletons and the Succubus were just-barely-separate encounters; we encountered the skeletons first, then just as we defeated them we came upon the Succubus. So I don't know who was controlling the skeletons, if anyone was. Go figure. My PC's prohibited schools are Necromancy and Evocation.